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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [Biertuempfel] [ In reply to ]
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Guys,When I first got my 910, the instant pace was useless. I uploaded Version 2.4 and did my first run with the new software yesterday and it worked perfectly. If anything, I would say that it is better than my 310 on instant pace. No more large jumps at all. That being said, I rarely use instant pace but its still good to know its no longer an issue.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [EricB] [ In reply to ]
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I posted this on another forum as well, but wanted to post it here to:

Just downloaded the update and have a swim workout scheduled for tomorrow morning; however, not by backlight doesn't come on.

I've tried powering down and turning it back on to no avail - any suggestions?

Thanks,

twomarks
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [EricB] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it was *just* instant pace that was busted in the first firmware. My initial runs with the 910xt seemed to short me distance in a big way, too. The couple since the update seem to be right in line with my 310xt, though. Both still short distance a LITTLE on singletrack trail runs, but it seems they all do. The early firmware was about 15% shorter than even normal, though.


--Donnie
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [twomarks] [ In reply to ]
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I just went to swim, pushed power and it vibrated and did not turn on. Before this it showed 3 bars of power. When I got home, I put it in the charger and it said 3% charged. Maybe it just needs charging....
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [Biertuempfel] [ In reply to ]
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I saw a big improvement w the sw update but still a bit jumpy compared with the fr305. The 305 had a smoothing filter which prob helped. My bigger issue now is the slow map redraw. I was following a course on the 910. The trail had lots of twists n turns and the 910 couldn't redraw fast enough to keep up. 4 out of 5 times I looked, it was busy drawing. So pretty much useless again. The 305 worked like a charm.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [Biertuempfel] [ In reply to ]
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As the instant pace feature on the 910 has frustrated me until the latest update, reading this thread has frustrated me even more. Two points to be made here. First, it does not matter if you think IP (instant pace) is a worthwhile parameter that should or should not be used. Garmin included on the watch, so it should be functional. Period. It has worked with other GPS products by Garmin, so what makes the 910 an exception? Secondly, IP is the only GPS pacing parameter that can even remotely be used to run steady pacing. I learned to run pacing decades ago on a track without GPS. My guess is that the majority of you who claim IP is useless would not know the difference between a 6:00 mile pace and a 8:00 mile pace....let alone a :10 difference. Go learn to pace run before you ramble on about the virtues of IP.

Doug Kugley
Fast Splits Coaching
http://www.fastsplitscoaching.com
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dkugley] [ In reply to ]
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Doug, I agree with you RE learning to pace: I learnt by racing and training track for many years. However to claim that IP is the ONLY real assistant to pacing is a bit short sighted. Average pace, average lap, last lap average and even some simple math whilst running a distance can be helpful, though not instantaneous.

I'm yet to try the update but hope it fixes my IP readings too.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [Bigtb] [ In reply to ]
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Not really short sighted if you think about it. Yes, calculations and "feel" would work. However, I am focused on parameters indicates on the watch to accomplish this purpose. The other pacing parameters you mentioned are nice and useful for specific purposes. However, in the majority, they are focused on past effort versus actual effort. This really doesn't adequately teach you how to pace. Average pace does not promote steady pacing. It merely tells you how fast to run based on how fast you have previously been running to reach a target end time. If running an even and steady pace is the goal, this misses the mark entirely.

Doug Kugley
Fast Splits Coaching
http://www.fastsplitscoaching.com
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dkugley] [ In reply to ]
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Doug, I am curious to learn then, how did you learn to pace yourself on the track? Because as far I’m aware, before gps, there was only one way to pace yourself on track and that was against the clock. Run a set distance on the track, check your watch to see if you were on target, then change your pace accordingly (or not if you were on pace). If you learnt this, then using average paces and previous lap paces and times is a direct application of track pacing and a suitable method of pacing in general. Part of the skill of pacing, and improving your ability to pace is reduce the need to check your pace, if at all.
 
Call me old school, but checking your watch every 10s or so to make sure your instantaneous pace is correct defeats the untamed background of running. Yes, live pacing is great. Yes, live pacing will greatly assist you in running a steady pace. But will it really help you when it counts in a race? Variations in speed in distance running is what can defeat an athlete that is not capable of great changes in speed. Will it help when doing a training run to a set pace? Yes, but again, one needs to learn what happens when you run above threshold or a set pace for too long and how that affects the goals of a run.
 
Learning to run an even and steady pace can be sought through various mediums, including using a gps. However using any measurement will give the same reactions from athlete who is running at the time:
-          Check watch for time/distance/IP/average pace
-          “Am I running too fast, too slow or am I on pace?”
-          Adjust pace accordingly.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [Bigtb] [ In reply to ]
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That explains my point exactly. When you learn to pace on the track, you pace yourself off of very small intervals such as a 200m mark. You then correlate the effort to the pace. This way you will learn to basically run 8 consistent 200's consecutively. Avg pace won't do that. For example, if your goal is a 6:00 mile, ideally you would like to run 90" quarters or 45" 200's. If you go out and run a 70" quarter, avg pace will then only show you are on your target of 6:00 pace if you slow down to ~96" quarters for the next three. Correct pacing is learned within each mile as opposed to at each mile. This essentially is as close as we were able to get to IP prior to GPS technology.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about watch checking...GPS or not. Once you learn proper pacing, you will be able to modulate your effort and by virtue pace based on feel.

You learn the effects of above threshold efforts by knowing your threshold and knowingly running above it for appropriate efforts. It is far more beneficial for the athlete to know this and build a workout to encompass this instead of having it accidentally occurring.

I never suggested GPS technology was the only way to learn steady pacing, nor the most effective. I only suggested IP was the only way to effectively use the GPS tool to do this.

My point in this whole exchange is the IP is the closest thing the GPS unit will provide to correlate body feedback to actual speed. Steady pacing is not really about adjusting to what has or will happen; it is about the current.

Doug Kugley
Fast Splits Coaching
http://www.fastsplitscoaching.com
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dkugley] [ In reply to ]
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I would agrue that the fundamental problem is the implementation of IP, and not the actual use of IP.

Meaning - look at power meters. Most modern power meter head units nowadays offer 1s,3s,5s, and 30s lagged power (smoothed power). Essentially, show the average over the last 30s worth of effort. 1s = Instant, and most folks would agree that in the case of power meters, that's useless due to variations you see. These variations aren't actually as visible in running as they are in power.

But, many who train by power end up using a combination of 3-5s and 30s power. Which, effectively give you what you're noting on a track at 200m intervals.

To date, the closest option we have is oddly enough the Timex Global Trainer (7s smoothed pace), and the older FR305's that could do a bit more smoothing.


-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Thats exactly what i have been wondering about. Why the heck did garmin remove the smoothing filter that is available on the 305. I have the 305305305 with the least filter chice and its great. What r the chances that garmin will put that filter onthe 910
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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I agree they need to have a 3-5 second smoothing option. The instant pacing feature by itself is too stochastic.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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dcrainmaker - any idea why the 910 IP function is far less stable than the 310?

Doug Kugley
Fast Splits Coaching
http://www.fastsplitscoaching.com
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dkugley] [ In reply to ]
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dkugley wrote:
When you learn to pace on the track, you pace yourself off of very small intervals such as a 200m mark. You then correlate the effort to the pace. This way you will learn to basically run 8 consistent 200's consecutively. Avg pace won't do that.

It will if you set auto lap length to 200m.
Display last lap pace, et voila.

Btw, if you're moving at 6:00, what's the instantaneous pace of your wrist as it moves from by your waist to in front of your chest? Or back again?
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [vitalstatistix] [ In reply to ]
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Understood. However, that is compensating for essentially what IP should be doing. Again, IP should work. Period. As far as the comment about arm movement, that has never been an issue with the 310xt.

Doug Kugley
Fast Splits Coaching
http://www.fastsplitscoaching.com
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dkugley] [ In reply to ]
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dkugley wrote:
Understood. However, that is compensating for essentially what IP should be doing. Again, IP should work. Period.

Granted. But that's different from this statement

dkugley wrote:
IP is the only GPS pacing parameter that can even remotely be used to run steady pacing.


which appears to be total nonsense. If, as you say, you learned to run steady pacing using 200m times then your Garmin can do this for you without using the IP parameter.

Again, IP should work and according to some people with the new software it does work, but it's rubbish to say that people can't run steadily without it.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [vitalstatistix] [ In reply to ]
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My IP seems to work perfectly and I haven't upgraded the software yet. However, my battery keeps running out fast (less than a day, or after 1-2 workouts). How do I turn the GPS off when i'm not using it without going to settings each time to do it? If I lock the keys will it stop the watch for searching for satellites?
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [jimmys525] [ In reply to ]
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jimmys525 wrote:
How do I turn the GPS off when i'm not using it without going to settings each time to do it?

Not sure if this counts as "without going to settings" but if you press "mode" and then "gps" and then "gps status", change enabled to "no".
Should take about 8 seconds to do, less if you're wearing an aero helmet.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [vitalstatistix] [ In reply to ]
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Press enter twice and you get the option to turn off gps. I usually do this while it searches for sat.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [vitalstatistix] [ In reply to ]
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You used to be able to turn it off from the quick, Sport-selection menu. But they removed that option when the 310 came around. Annoying.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Do you think that the recording method (smart vs one sec) has anything to do with ip accuracy/stability?

Has anyone tried walking and testing the ip? I still think that the lower speeds are still an issue and for some reason at faster speeds the ip is better.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [avikoren1] [ In reply to ]
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I think this thread needs to back away from the philosophical questions about the merits of using technology to determine instant pace. This thread is about a device with an advertised feature that is inferior in functionality to the same feature on an older model.

I think our frustration can be boiled down to this. Garmin got this feature right with the 305. With the 910xt, not so much.

I personally think that the problem would go away if the 910xt had the pace smoothing option that the 305 has. I have an open incident with Garmin support and have suggested as much.

I have also read that the problem doesn't exist as bad at much faster paces (6:00 minute miles, etc). Is it possible that Garmin only thought "serious" athletes would be buying the 910xt and decided not to test at the pedestrian 9:00 and 10:00 minute mile pace?
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [michael_runs] [ In reply to ]
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I agree and i too raised the filter option to garmin. Lets hope.
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Re: Garmin 910xt-software update, now worse [michael_runs] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, I get it, I'm slow.

I received my 910xt with the first shipment from Garmin. Wore it once, pacing was WAY off, by about 1 minute. I have IP next to AP. AP was dead on, IP was all over the place.

Contacted Garmin, they told me to reset my watch outside to mfg settings and leave it outside for 30 minutes to re-do satellites. Went for a run the next day, same issue.

I performed the update last week. Ran the next day, same issue.

I don't think it has anything to do with arm swing as I performed that test with my arm stationary at 90 degrees. Still off.

I was averaging 7:30 pace and it was reporting anywhere from 8:30 to 9 pace the entire time. My 310xt is correct 95% of the time. Same routes. Only variable is the watch.

I agree, I suspect it's the data smoothing that is missing.
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