Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [STP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
STP wrote:
Second, and really to my point, one of the basic problems with triathlon swimmers who want to get faster is that instead of looking at what real swimmers do as a guide (modified of course to fit time, talent and the particular nature of triathlon) they rationalize why they should be training for swimming in a completely different way than those who do it for a living, so to speak.

Well said.

I don't bike, but if I did, the first thing I would do is emulate how real bike riders train. Why is that not true for most adult onset swimmers?
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [STP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well said. This thread has been a real kick in the pants (or suit, I guess) to put in the time & effort in the pool.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Tin Cup] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tin Cup wrote:
STP wrote:
Second, and really to my point, one of the basic problems with triathlon swimmers who want to get faster is that instead of looking at what real swimmers do as a guide (modified of course to fit time, talent and the particular nature of triathlon) they rationalize why they should be training for swimming in a completely different way than those who do it for a living, so to speak.

Well said.

I don't bike, but if I did, the first thing I would do is emulate how real bike riders train. Why is that not true for most adult onset swimmers?

It *sort of* is in a weird bastardized way. Drills and strict "technique" work are the hallmarks of youth swimming programs. So you have these parents taking their 6-10yo kids to swim practice, and they see them doing a lot of drills and technique work, so they extrapolate that as being correct for them. The problem with this is that, just like learning pretty much anything, kids are WAY more adaptable. Secondly, these kids are doing these drills under the watch of a coach. And, lastly, if they are like most youth swim programs, they are probably significantly more than your AG triathlete, such that time spent drilling is part of a much more comprehensive overall swim program.

However, I know a lot of folks who look at how kids train and they base their own training around what they think they understand about kids' programs without understanding the four big limiters to doing so - 1) they aren't kids, 2) they rarely have a coach supervising the drills, and 3) they don't swim nearly enough to allow themselves to waste time with only marginally productive drills. The fourth thing is really the big one - and it's sort of related to #2 - and that's that they generally lack any real understanding of what it takes to swim correctly, so not only are they often not doing the drills correctly, they don't even know why they are doing them.

Yes, there is a certain amount of simple laziness, but I think that ignorance is the larger culprit as to why people waste so much time (and money) on drills and drill-based programs (e.g. Total Immersion).


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ding Ding Ding Ding

It's the Dev Paul Talking down to triathletes alert

How dare you talk down to triathletes!

;)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Jan 5, 12 17:53
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:
Tin Cup wrote:
It *sort of* is in a weird bastardized way. Drills and strict "technique" work are the hallmarks of youth swimming programs. So you have these parents taking their 6-10yo kids to swim practice, and they see them doing a lot of drills and technique work, so they extrapolate that as being correct for them. The problem with this is that, just like learning pretty much anything, kids are WAY more adaptable. Secondly, these kids are doing these drills under the watch of a coach. And, lastly, if they are like most youth swim programs, they are probably significantly more than your AG triathlete, such that time spent drilling is part of a much more comprehensive overall swim program.


Other than the "adaptable" part, this characterization is a more accurate assessment of the ins and outs of technique and drills than the original QFT, in my opinion. The success that age group coaches have with drills IS because they have them in a coherent context, not just "doing drills".

As for the adaptability issue, the greater recalcitrance to changes in movement patterns that may be present in many adults would be an argument for more drills or technical activities rather than less. Of course they have to be purposeful and actually address something that limits speed in the water. Just like your paddles provide stimulus, and your buoy as well, so too do drills -- what stimulus and when is the crux.


Quote:
Yes, there is a certain amount of simple laziness, but I think that ignorance is the larger culprit as to why people waste so much time (and money) on drills and drill-based programs (e.g. Total Immersion).

I will not speak to the structure of TI's program, as I know nothing beyond the original book. However, if it does not succeed in helping folks to be faster, it is not the drills themselves that are bad or ineffective -- Terry coached a number of very fast, very TI looking swimmers back in the day. "Just doing drills" is about as helpful as "just swimming a bunch".

The original point about technique training not being compatible with fitness building, however, is still, I believe, false. As I stated earlier, there are a whole bunch of successful swim coaches out there doing many skill building activities as part of their endurance regimen. Failure to recognize that is failure to look.

r.b.

Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [robertwb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
As I stated earlier, there are a whole bunch of successful swim coaches out there doing many skill building activities as part of their endurance regimen. Failure to recognize that is failure to look.


Putting words in Rapps mouth, but I believe he acknowledged and agreed with that, however he did state that programs that include a lot of drill work, also include a lot of fitness building work.

When you are only swimming 2 to 4 hours a week as most triathletes, you simply can't devote 2 hours + a week to drills, it doesn't leave enough room for fitness.


And that's the bottom line.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sentania wrote:
When you are only swimming 2 to 4 hours a week as most triathletes, you simply can't devote 2 hours + a week to drills, it doesn't leave enough room for fitness.


And that's the bottom line.

Sorry, I disagree with you about the bottom line. If I understans you, your bottom line says that drilling work does not and can not get used to build fitness. This is an incorrect application of drills, and simply not how many successful coaches use them - at least not in the modern day.

Skill building activities can most certainly be an aerobic activity, and in fact can be a threshold activity - and still be done properly. This is my problem with the original post - it creates a false distinction, and in essence makes a caricature of skill activities. Technique work does not have to be "1x25, nice and easy and perfect, OK, great, now rest 1:00. Repeat 4 times or until you think your technique is failing, if that happens stop immediately and visualize effortless swimming".

regards,
r.b.

Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [robertwb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think you are actually in line with the orginal post, at least the way I am reading it.


I took the point to be that many parts of proper swimming technique are not necessarily just a particular set of motions but rather the ability to successfully execute those motions at speed and over time. One needs to work on swim specific fitness to be able to accomplish that. Its a two part process - proper technique but also, repeated long term attempts to execute proper technique at a high enough effort level to build the necessary fitness. I see your statement "Skill building activities can most certainly be an aerobic activity, and in fact can be a threshold activity - and still be done properly" as essentially saying the same thing. As you state, drills vs work is most definitely not an either/or proposition and real swimmers most definitely do not approach technique work that way.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [STP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
STP wrote:

I took the point to be that many parts of proper swimming technique are not necessarily just a particular set of motions but rather the ability to successfully execute those motions at speed and over time. One needs to work on swim specific fitness to be able to accomplish that. Its a two part process - proper technique but also, repeated long term attempts to execute proper technique at a high enough effort level to build the necessary fitness.

Well, I most certainly agree with your statement, I think that it sums up both the simplicity & the complexity of swimming prowess. I think the original post, which said that "...Working on your fitness works on technique. The opposite is not true." -- is pretty clear in stating that you can't work on technique and build fitness. It is this that I disagree with strongly. Now, maybe in the ensuing 12 pages of replies it has been restated. :)

regards,
r.b.

Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [robertwb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think back to my competitive swimming days, and I don't think I can recall a single technique exercise I did that I would call a threshold activity.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [sentania] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sentania wrote:
I think back to my competitive swimming days, and I don't think I can recall a single technique exercise I did that I would call a threshold activity.

Which does not surprise me, though I don;t know how long ago you swam. However, I use the term quite broadly, since I believe that all the toys, as well as drills, and "activities" such as speedplay, breathing patterns, all contribute to technique building.

However, to be really, really literal in the definition of "technique" as "drilling". Late in my coaching career (after I had a day job), I began assisting coaches at a local club here in Richmond VA. The two age group coaches that I assisted are elite - one has perrennial NAG-16 age groupers, and the other coaches pre-senior (like 12-14), most of them non-elite (by USS standards). The pre-senior coach has a bit of history, she was Katie Hoffs age group coach (and a ton of others who have been US olympic trials level and above). Anyhow, I was blown away at the amount of drilling that took place not only as tweeners in the main set (active recovery), but which was decidedly aerobic, if not threshold. These coaches produce some of the best swimmers in the nation (NOVA is always top 5-6 in the USA rankings). They are not the only coaches I have seen using this approach. It works. It is technique, it is aerobic, and it is highly successful.

regards,
r.b.

Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [eganski] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mike,

Good eye and detective work.

Dev seems to have singled me out as the only one who ever "talks down" to triathletes - but I note that many others do as well and I don't see Dev calling them out. I am typically not talking down - just pointing out the obvious or more importantly the not so obvious. Also, just trying to have some fun with it with a sport and a group that at times takes things a bit too seriously.

Dev and I have known one another personally for a very long time - 20+ years, so it's a bit of tit-for-tat on my part.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [BeachboyWI] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
plus holding a 4.0

___________________________________________________________________________
Accepting athletes for 2019
Twitter: @MarkyV - 34 kona qualifiers 2006-'18 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [robertwb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
robertwb wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Tin Cup wrote:
It *sort of* is in a weird bastardized way. Drills and strict "technique" work are the hallmarks of youth swimming programs. So you have these parents taking their 6-10yo kids to swim practice, and they see them doing a lot of drills and technique work, so they extrapolate that as being correct for them. The problem with this is that, just like learning pretty much anything, kids are WAY more adaptable. Secondly, these kids are doing these drills under the watch of a coach. And, lastly, if they are like most youth swim programs, they are probably significantly more than your AG triathlete, such that time spent drilling is part of a much more comprehensive overall swim program.


Other than the "adaptable" part, this characterization is a more accurate assessment of the ins and outs of technique and drills than the original QFT, in my opinion. The success that age group coaches have with drills IS because they have them in a coherent context, not just "doing drills".

As for the adaptability issue, the greater recalcitrance to changes in movement patterns that may be present in many adults would be an argument for more drills or technical activities rather than less. Of course they have to be purposeful and actually address something that limits speed in the water. Just like your paddles provide stimulus, and your buoy as well, so too do drills -- what stimulus and when is the crux.


Quote:
Yes, there is a certain amount of simple laziness, but I think that ignorance is the larger culprit as to why people waste so much time (and money) on drills and drill-based programs (e.g. Total Immersion).

I will not speak to the structure of TI's program, as I know nothing beyond the original book. However, if it does not succeed in helping folks to be faster, it is not the drills themselves that are bad or ineffective -- Terry coached a number of very fast, very TI looking swimmers back in the day. "Just doing drills" is about as helpful as "just swimming a bunch".

The original point about technique training not being compatible with fitness building, however, is still, I believe, false. As I stated earlier, there are a whole bunch of successful swim coaches out there doing many skill building activities as part of their endurance regimen. Failure to recognize that is failure to look.

r.b.

If you really to talk about a failure to recognize and/or a failure to look, it's your failure to look through the numerous, very clear replies in this thread or in the very well thought out and simple blog posts from world class coaches like Joel and Brett. I'll leave it to you to answer whether that failure to look/recognize comes from the fact that you try to make money by selling people programs to make them faster swimmers or something else.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @rappstar | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2018 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rappstar wrote:

If you really to talk about a failure to recognize and/or a failure to look, it's your failure to look through the numerous, very clear replies in this thread or in the very well thought out and simple blog posts from world class coaches like Joel and Brett. I'll leave it to you to answer whether that failure to look/recognize comes from the fact that you try to make money by selling people programs to make them faster swimmers or something else.

Rapp - of course I take the view that I take about this thread because I sell swimming programs, ones that use drills -- but I don't think that's why I've missed an acknowledgement of what I consider a counterpoint to the original tweet: drilling can be used effectively in an endurance building capacity, not as an adjunct, but as a part. I read Brett's most recent blog, heard his interviews, and I hear his point. But Brett didn't author the tweet in question - Paulo did. Much as he may like to be, Paulo is not Brett Sutton.

I just reviewed all 22 of your responses on this thread. Honestly, I do not see that notion represented in the posts that I have read. If my assertion that drills can and are used effectively in an endurance building capacity, the original tweet is, in my opinion, untrue. I have seen you and others say things about how drills can be part of a larger training regimen (although you regard them as nonsense or irrelevant to adults). I have read this quote by yourself:

Quote:
Pull buoys help correct and establish body position. You can waste time drilling. OR you can simultaneously work on your fitness AND your technique.

I don't disagree with your assertion that buoys and paddles can provide stimulus that may help develop technique, they may be able to be used when your legs are beat from running and cycling a shit-load. Maybe they are so dang hot there is no reason ever for anyone to ever give me a red cent to help them improve their swimming with my lame-ass drills. That's fine. But I have seen drills in a fitness building context used by other, far better swim coaches than me, you and Paulo. That's my T.

r.b.

Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [robertwb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The difference between you and coaches like Brett Sutton or Joel Filliol is that those guys work is evaluated solely on results. If their athletes don't get results at the highest level, they don't put food on the table. As for coaches like you (are you even a coach?) is that you have your philosophical views of what is swim coaching, but the bottom line is that if your clients don't get results, it's all the same to you, they already bought your snake oil. Look at that guy that posts here, caf0. He bought the oil and improved from 2:00/100 to 1:52/100. That isridculous!!! So... between listening to what Sutton or Flliol say or what you're saying, excuse me when I go with the opinion of people that actually know what they're talking about because they're out there doing it... everyday.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The whole point of this thread (quoting rappstart from a few posts up):

3) they (most triathletes) don't swim nearly enough to allow themselves to waste time with only marginally productive drills.

Florida Triathlon Camps
Train in North Americas winter training destination

Ruble Triathlon Coaching
Coach to 116 PR's across IM, 70.3, Oly, Marathon, and Half Marathon over 4 seasons
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Actually Paulo, I am a swimming coach. I sure wish that caf0 got more than :08 per 100, but she got what she got, results vary. If she were to request a refund, I would give it. That said, :08 per 100 is not too shabby, although you may promise a greater payoff with your free advice, and you may have the ticket that makes her much quicker.

So, yes, as I said, I am a swimming coach. And what I do is not snake oil. I teach a very simple, basic set of abilities that are common to all elite swimmers: timing of the legs, arms, head and torso. You don't have to take my word for the existence of these timings in elite swimmers, read Maglischo, or even Doc Counsilman, who was the first to characterize the most common kick rhythms and their timings. Maglischo noted that the timings are so common among the elite that he worked with that it was "seldom a problem". Having done this for many years, developing swimmers from the ground up, I can say that in the non-elite, it is quite often a problem, so in this I suppose I disagree with Maglischo. I didn't invent this however, I was taught by a great mentor, a coach named Bob Mattson, former world record holder himself, and coach of many, many elite swimmers from his club in Wilmington DE. He too is one of the coaches that I rate as far better than myself, Rappstar, or Paulo (if it's he's not you).

And guess what? I AM doing it every day. Either reviewing athlete video, swimming myself, coaching workout, talking to my network of coaching friends, re-re-reading Maglischo while I bike on the trainer, or answering questions online. No, I am not a high-profile coach of world-class triathletes at this time, though I work with some pretty good ones.

r.b.

Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [robertwb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
robertwb wrote:
Actually Paulo


Not Paulo. Sorry.

EDIT: So how many Olympic medals in triathlon do you have? Sutto and Filliol have a few. How many have you got?
Last edited by: The Authority: Jan 6, 12 12:25
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The Authority wrote:
robertwb wrote:
Actually Paulo


Not Paulo. Sorry.

EDIT: So how many Olympic medals in triathlon do you have? Sutto and Filliol have a few. How many have you got?

None. As I said, "I am not a high-profile coach of world-class triathletes at this time, though I work with some pretty good ones".

If you want my resume, I have coached a member of the US World Champs team in the 25k open water, a top-50 in the world in the 800m who also scored at D-I NCAA in the 1650. I also worked weekly with a few other USOT distance qualifiers as part of multi-site team workouts, one of whom was a finalist at the US olympic trials in the 1500m. Pool swimming is much of my background.

I would note that coach Sousa (who you aren't) coached an olympic medalist, and sure, it's pretty presumptuous of me to criticize his wisdom, it just strikes me that he is off the mark on this one, and so I lay out my arguments here.

So, since you want to compare resumes, and you're NOT Paulo, then, who pray tell are you sir?

r.b.

Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The Authority wrote:
robertwb wrote:
Actually Paulo


Not Paulo. Sorry.

EDIT: So how many Olympic medals in triathlon do you have? Sutto and Filliol have a few. How many have you got?
Curious as to why you ride this guy so hard, but don't do the same with Paulo considering the continued shitty results of his athetes?

Ooops, I forgot, this is ST, home of the group reach-around.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Interesting..................I was flamed a couple years ago with this qoute,,which was meant from the person as working on fitness first
.." Do not even ask me about your sroke till you can swim a 1000yrds hard".........Mike Burton, 3 time Gold...................Asfar as you being Paulo........anyone that has been reading smartasscoach for years, you do not sound like Paulo.....So I believes you
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't have a dog in this fight but it is more than a little unfair to suggest that the ONLY criteria for judging how successful a coach or trainer is by how many elite athletes they coach and how successfull those elite athletes are. That criteria is only relevant if you are an elite athlete shopping for a coach.


I've spent alot of time around swimming and swim coaches and have even done some coaching myself. I will say that the elite coaches I know are rightly quite proud of what their elite swimmers have done, championships they've won, etc. But, to a man and woman, they also our quite proud of the lesser mortals they have somehow gotten to shine under their tutalage.

Plus, any decent coach would probably admit it is harder to get someone to drop from a 2:00 to 1:15 100 yd free than it is to get a highly talented but not fullly developed guy to drop from :47 to :45. The guy who goes :45 started out at 1:15 the first time he swam a 100 yd race at 9 years old, he shows up to train 11 times a week 45-50 weeks a year, goes years between missed practices and generally does exactly what you tell him to do pretty close to perfectly the first or second time you tell him. Coaching at that level is pretty easy in many respects. Its much more about being a counsolor, guide and phsycologist than a physio trainer.

Now, take the overweight lady who signs up for a 3 days a week program, misses practice occassionaly and generally has no clue how to swim or even what it really means to train, and eeking any improvement out of that is an accomplishment.
Quote Reply
Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
anyone that has been reading smartasscoach for years, you do not sound like Paulo.....So I believes you

No way Paulo would have taken 2 tries to spell Authority properly.
Quote Reply

Prev Next