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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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Many good comments already. My notes:
  • To borrow a saying from my motorcycling world, "there's no replacement for displacement." There is no replacement for a higher FTP. If you buy into my advice that you ride a x% of your FTP for 112 miles, than earn the right to ride at higher watts by earning a higher FTP. Rider A with an FTP of 250w will ALWAYS ride a faster IM bike split than Rider B with an FTP of 220w, assuming equal weight, identical aero-ness, equally good pacing, nutrition, etc.
  • There is no such thing as aerobic base-mileage pixie dust that allows Mr 220w to outsplit Mr 250w for the IM bike, given the assumptions above, and assuming that 250w guy has done a handful of 3.5-4.5hr rides, maybe even gone over 100 miles a time or two.
  • The best way to lift FTP is to train at, near, or slight above FTP and recover properly between those sessions.
  • You can lift FTP through lower intensity training but, in my experience, 95% of the AG'ers training this way aren't putting in enough mileage or time in the saddle to pull their FTP up this way. In my experience, you need to be cycling 15-20+hrs/wk to lift your FTP through Z1-2, maybe Z3 riding. So the problem is that AG'ers apply a pro solution (Z2 + high volume = FTP increase) to an AG scenario -- Z2 + moderate volume (most AG'ers settle in at 7-10hrs/wk cycling) = FTP stagnation.
  • Dev, I disagree about the need for base building miles on the bike before you earn the right to do the hard training that will make you faster. Toss your leg over the top tube of a well fitting, well adjusted bicycle, have someone look at you to identify any saddle height, knee tracking issues, etc. Learn how to shift, brake, not hit anything...then go that way, as fast as you can. In my experience, cycling, even high intensity cycling, is a very, very low risk activity, certainly when compared to the run.
-------------------------

Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
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Rich,

I agree with your rider A and rider B analogy. Rider A will have the faster bike split but what about the run split?

I I think there is a median between FTP trg and base or endurance type trg. If Rider B spends more time doing endurance type trg they will probably come off the bike fresher and ready to drop down a quicker run split.

I think running performance has proved this time and again. You need a serious base to apply the tempo and speed to. Yes you can get by without the base but it will eventually cost your performance. Contrary if you only run long and never do speed work you'll likewise stagnate.

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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [jmaley] [ In reply to ]
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jmaley wrote:
Rich,

I agree with your rider A and rider B analogy. Rider A will have the faster bike split but what about the run split?

I I think there is a median between FTP trg and base or endurance type trg. If Rider B spends more time doing endurance type trg they will probably come off the bike fresher and ready to drop down a quicker run split.

I think running performance has proved this time and again. You need a serious base to apply the tempo and speed to. Yes you can get by without the base but it will eventually cost your performance. Contrary if you only run long and never do speed work you'll likewise stagnate.

I am always curious about what people mean when they say "building an aerobic base". As Rich Strauss mentioned (one of the most qualified coaches in multisport) most athletes think this means plodding around in zone 1 and 2 and never doing work near their threshold or FTP. Most of these athletes repeat their performances year after year with nary an improvement in their FTP or run splits.

As far as "building that aerobic base before you add intensity", what about the last 48 weeks of training that I did? Does that count toward an aerobic base or do I simply need to start from scratch in zones 1 and 2 all winter?

My athletes follow a protocol that pushes them intensely through their winter workouts and allows them to carry this fitness into their endurance training in the spring. The improvement in their performances has been stunning.

Last week one of my athletes had a 22% improvement in FTP and a 1:20 decrease in their 5k time - after 8 weeks.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [jmaley] [ In reply to ]
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jmaley wrote:
Rich,

I agree with your rider A and rider B analogy. Rider A will have the faster bike split but what about the run split?

I I think there is a median between FTP trg and base or endurance type trg. If Rider B spends more time doing endurance type trg they will probably come off the bike fresher and ready to drop down a quicker run split.

I think running performance has proved this time and again. You need a serious base to apply the tempo and speed to. Yes you can get by without the base but it will eventually cost your performance. Contrary if you only run long and never do speed work you'll likewise stagnate.

I am pretty sure that Rich will chime in again to answer directly. In the mean time, judging by the team work, he is not advocating lack of base, opposite, there is a huge base built along the plan execution, but a lot of it is done through FTP work+numerous hours spent in 80-85% of FTP through the same.
If you also reference Hunter/Cogan's book and their table of adaptations with different zone work, you will find that Z4 work achieves the same adaptations as Z2, but more amplified in every department. Rich simply picks Z3 and Z4 work as the most ROI vs. time invested, again the mentioned table will reflect that.
Another note, base building is a chronic activity exposure as well.
Yes, you are completely correct with run performance related to bike overall fitness. There will be no good run, unless bike fitness is where it needs to be to allow a fast split+enough left for a run to your potential.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
So the caveat here is that the newbie rider or a rider who had a looong layoff should not dive into FTP type of training this winter, without "getting some base" first. For athletes who were racing "long" last summer, they already have base.

Dev

OK, so I'm your newb rider then- started riding last April, trained/raced through early October, haven't been on the bike since, until yesterday. What should I be doing before hitting the bike hard? I come from a pretty competitive running background, so my cardio is fine, but I am less than good at cycling. What does a newb cycling base look like for someone planning to do Oly/HIM next summer and fall?
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [RFXCrunner] [ In reply to ]
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RFXCrunner wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
So the caveat here is that the newbie rider or a rider who had a looong layoff should not dive into FTP type of training this winter, without "getting some base" first. For athletes who were racing "long" last summer, they already have base.

Dev


OK, so I'm your newb rider then- started riding last April, trained/raced through early October, haven't been on the bike since, until yesterday. What should I be doing before hitting the bike hard? I come from a pretty competitive running background, so my cardio is fine, but I am less than good at cycling. What does a newb cycling base look like for someone planning to do Oly/HIM next summer and fall?


Change riding for running and u can answer your own question...

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
Last edited by: camaleon: Dec 29, 10 7:01
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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80-85% of FTP! If that is where you are working or at least some of the time then the base required to go the distance will be getting formed. My concern was simply that Rich was advocating FTP work (95-105% FTP) without hardly a mention of some lower intensity endurance(muscular) type trg. If EN is advocating some trg in the 80-85% range then that covers off my concern with the endurance trg as that is essentially trg at your HIM race intensity.


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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [camaleon] [ In reply to ]
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Doesn't really answer the question- my early season running is typically 30-45 min of running for 6-7 days a week. Somehow I doubt this is optimal for cycling.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [jmaley] [ In reply to ]
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jmaley wrote:
80-85% of FTP! If that is where you are working or at least some of the time then the base required to go the distance will be getting formed. My concern was simply that Rich was advocating FTP work (95-105% FTP) without hardly a mention of some lower intensity endurance(muscular) type trg. If EN is advocating some trg in the 80-85% range then that covers off my concern with the endurance trg as that is essentially trg at your HIM race intensity.


Below is cut and paste from our 20wk advanced IM plan, week 13 Saturday long ride of 4.5hrs. Definitions:
  • WU = Warmup
  • MS = Main Set
  • ' = minutes
  • (x') = rest interval, in minutes
  • 95-100%/Z4/Hard = ride at 95-100% of FTP, or at a Z4 heart rate, or Hard, depending on whether you have power, heart rate, or nothing at all.
  • WD: Warmdown

Bike 4:30 WU: 20-30' @ 65-70%/Z1-2/Easy

MS:
8' (3') @ 95-100%/Z4/Hard

10' (3') @ 95-100%/Z4/Hard

12' (3') @ 95-100%/Z4/Hard

12' (4') @ 95-100%/Z4/Hard

10' (4') @ 95-100%/Z4/Hard

8' (4') @ 95-100%/Z4/Hard

6 x 12' (2') @ 80-85%/Z3/Mod-Hard

For each interval include 2' standing WITHOUT spiking watts or effort, ie, standing for position change only.

Remainder of ride time is @75-80%/Z2, in the aerobars, practicing steady riding: no surges, constant power, etc.

WD: 10' Easy spin.

As a frame of reference, and because we are talking power-speak, a well-paced Ironman bike leg will generally accrue 275-~300 TSS points from about 5:15 to 6hrs. Athletes riding longer than 6hrs will generally put up 300-330 TSS points. We can use these numbers as a frame of reference for our training rides: "If I expect to put up ~285 TSS on race day, and on my Saturday ride I just racked up ~275 TSS, I've basically introduced an Ironman-ride's worth of training stress to my body, even though I did so in 4.5hrs vs the 6hrs that my friends say I need to be doing.

Guarantee that that ride above will net you north of 275 TSS, maybe close to 300 in 4.5hrs vs 6hrs.
  • 95-100%: we include this so the athlete continues to lift their FTP
  • 80-85%: we've found we can dramatically increase the TSS/hr of a ride by having them spend a lot of time at this intensity.
  • 75-80%: a tick higher than IM intensity, so they get used to riding in the bars, fueling themselves, etc at just higher than IM intensity.
  • The standing, steady riding, no surging stuff: I want them to develop the skill of riding steady. To stand...without spiking watts; to ride hills...without spiking watts, focusing on their efforts on the crest and into the downhill, etc
  • Around this workout, we've also told them they are stapled into the aerobars from Week X through race day.
  • These last two bullets reflect, for me, the requirement for race specific training.
The ride is followed by a 30' brick run, as Easy out, Marathon Pace (per Jack Daniels) back.

Next is the same week, Sunday ride:

Bike 3:00 WU: 20-30' @ 65-70%/Z1/Easy

MS: Spend as much time @ 80-85%/Z3/Mod-Hard as possible. Take short recoveries as needed (eat, drink, etc),

WD: 10' Easy spin.

"But what about aerobic base, race specific intensity, how can you ride 6hrs on race day if you've only ridden 4.5hrs in training."
  • The plan will include 2 x race sims of 112 mile ride followed by a 6mi run.
  • Plan includes 1-2 "big days:" ~1hr swim, 4hr bike, 1hr run.
  • We encourage folks to schedule a high volume bike or tri week if they want and have the resources.
Finally, there's what you read in a book, there's what you learn by coaching a handful of IM athletes...then there's what you learn in 15+yrs of IM-only coaching and thousands of athletes. Those workouts above reflect the experience of the later. Just sayin'.

--------------------------------

Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Ironman 2013 and 2014 World Champion TriClub, Div I
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Last edited by: Rich Strauss: Dec 29, 10 9:11
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:

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My FTP drops way too much and it takes way longer for me to get it back than my endurance. I'm sure that could work the opposite for some folks.



There's a reason it drops :)





Yes, the Myth that riding in Z2 for countless hours over 2 months (with no FTP work) will enable you to achieve a higher FTP in only 1 or 2 months of spring work, compared to working on FTP over the winter and into spring.

As others have stated, your previous seasons long workouts serve as plenty of base such that you can work on FTP during the winter. It's not like as soon as November rolls around that your aerobic fitness just dissapears and you have to start from scratch again.

Base is good and even necessary for athletes new to a particular sport, but for anyone with more than 2 seasons of experience, it is just an excuse to do workouts that are as beneficial as sitting around watching TV.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
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Rich,

Thanks for the clarification. The example from your long ride makes perfect sense to me.

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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [packetloss] [ In reply to ]
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FTP is an estimate for your aerobic base. It is pretty objective and easy to measure yourself but nothing more. Any sort of aerobic base building should have a positive effect on that FTP, or you do the base training wrong. Just as good base training should have a positive effect on your 20 minute power threshold, and your 2:30 hour threshold power.

Nobody who prescribes so called "FTP training" can explain why that one hour threshold power should be the benchmark for your winter training block. FTP training is nothing but pseudo science used to confuse the clients about a very simple concept. Focusing on your 2:30 hour threshold power or your 28:32 minutes threshold power will have the same results for your summer races. There is absolutely nothing special going on while riding at FTP. And there is no reason at all to work specifically towards increasing this arbitrarily chosen measure for aerobic capacity.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [RFXCrunner] [ In reply to ]
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ms ftp tss...if i had to remember all this terminology and kind of workout id quit the sport. not trying to bash anyone's "training" opinions,but...people overthink this stuff to death.... most of the fast people just train hard,recover,repeat...dont get too obsessed with the numbers. i dont even ride with a bike computer, or race with a watch on...i guess im just not a type A personality either :)...

john
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [Rich Strauss] [ In reply to ]
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So do Mark Allen & Dr. Maffetone have it completely wrong?

Allen's times in Kona 15-20 years ago are still some of the fastest ever. His training programs include aggressive base building at paces/heart rates that are difficult to maintain when you start (difficult to go that slow). He did this for 3-4 months during his base phase.

Why is this approach not a good one?

Edit...I'm not being a smart-ass. I really want to understand why the approach of a 6-time Kona winner is not the best one...or at least a valid one.
Last edited by: cjbruin: Dec 29, 10 13:05
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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cjbruin wrote:
So do Mark Allen & Dr. Maffetone have it completely wrong?

Allen's times in Kona 15-20 years ago are still some of the fastest ever. His training programs include aggressive base building at paces/heart rates that are difficult to maintain when you start (difficult to go that slow). He did this for 3-4 months during his base phase.

Why is this approach not a good one?

Edit...I'm not being a smart-ass. I really want to understand why the approach of a 6-time Kona winner is not the best one...or at least a valid one.

Um.... genetics?


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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Nobody who prescribes so called "FTP training" can explain why that one hour threshold power should be the benchmark for your winter training block. FTP training is nothing but pseudo science used to confuse the clients about a very simple concept. Focusing on your 2:30 hour threshold power or your 28:32 minutes threshold power will have the same results for your summer races. There is absolutely nothing special going on while riding at FTP. And there is no reason at all to work specifically towards increasing this arbitrarily chosen measure for aerobic capacity.

Oh stop it with your common sense already! How on earth will people sell books & training plans now?




blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think anyone is saying they have it wrong or increasing your FTP is the only way to go. There are many other great and very effective approaches to training just like the ones you mentioned. If you can spend the amount of time required to build a base as those programs suggest and then continue to increase your training stress throughout the year and over future years they will likely work well for you also.

The life of a world champion professional athlete is very different than most rank and file age groupers. The focus of the EN plans that Rich share is different and around fitting training into the typical age groupers life. Therefore getting the best return on investment from the time you have available to train.

My life just doesn't allow me to train large numbers of hours. The EN plans work for me because I keep my wife, daughter and boss happy while l still get to compete in triathlon. Sure I may be able to get a little faster if I built a huge base and did higher volume training but I would also be divorced, not able to spend time with my daughter or not able to perform as well at work.

Plus, I would much rather be riding on my trainer for an hour at a time all winter raising my FTP then spining for hours on end in my basement. I save the long rides for spring and summer when I can go outside and enjoy being on my bike for hours.

Others may have a life that allows them to train 20-30 hours a week and for them a different type of training may be more effective.

ZOOT ULTRA Team
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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cjbruin wrote:
So do Mark Allen & Dr. Maffetone have it completely wrong?

Allen's times in Kona 15-20 years ago are still some of the fastest ever. His training programs include aggressive base building at paces/heart rates that are difficult to maintain when you start (difficult to go that slow). He did this for 3-4 months during his base phase.

Why is this approach not a good one?

Edit...I'm not being a smart-ass. I really want to understand why the approach of a 6-time Kona winner is not the best one...or at least a valid one.

Absolutely not. Mark Allen had all the time in the world to spend it all on training and recovery. Yes, it is a way to go for sure. Can you, do you have 30hrs a week to train. I don't. I have a family and a job that pays the bills. EN way is proven to work in my case with 15-17hrs to train. Mancona summed it up pretty nicely.
There is more than one way of doing it and no one is doubting that Mark Allen and other pros have it correct. It fits their life.
EN is just proving, contributing and confirming the science of excersize physiology that there is another way. Hunter/ Coggan are also very explicit in their book as well of the importance of FTP work. They also state that the most effective way to elevate ones FTP is to train at that level, slightly below and slightly above. Pick up the book and look at it.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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big slow mover wrote:
FTP is an estimate for your aerobic base. It is pretty objective and easy to measure yourself but nothing more. Any sort of aerobic base building should have a positive effect on that FTP, or you do the base training wrong. Just as good base training should have a positive effect on your 20 minute power threshold, and your 2:30 hour threshold power.

Nobody who prescribes so called "FTP training" can explain why that one hour threshold power should be the benchmark for your winter training block. FTP training is nothing but pseudo science used to confuse the clients about a very simple concept. Focusing on your 2:30 hour threshold power or your 28:32 minutes threshold power will have the same results for your summer races. There is absolutely nothing special going on while riding at FTP. And there is no reason at all to work specifically towards increasing this arbitrarily chosen measure for aerobic capacity.

Now that isn't exactly true - although I would agree that your 28:32 minute power would be close enough. Training is a balance between overloading the proper systems and recovery. What is "special" about FTP is that it's at a high enough level to promote maximal adaption to the aerobic system, without requiring massive recovery time. You could train in the subthreshold zone and get good improvements too. With that said if you exclusively work at FTP or below, you won't be able to do repetitive 200% surges such are what is needed in Crits or road races.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [big slow mover] [ In reply to ]
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big slow mover wrote:
FTP is an estimate for your aerobic base. It is pretty objective and easy to measure yourself but nothing more. Any sort of aerobic base building should have a positive effect on that FTP, or you do the base training wrong. Just as good base training should have a positive effect on your 20 minute power threshold, and your 2:30 hour threshold power.

correct
Nobody who prescribes so called "FTP training" can explain why that one hour threshold power should be the benchmark for your winter training block. FTP training is nothing but pseudo science used to confuse the clients about a very simple concept. Focusing on your 2:30 hour threshold power or your 28:32 minutes threshold power will have the same results for your summer races. There is absolutely nothing special going on while riding at FTP. And there is no reason at all to work specifically towards increasing this arbitrarily chosen measure for aerobic capacity.

incorrect, unless youre talking about threshold zone (zone 4) training. zone 3-4 are in the sweet spot where you can accumulate a lot of quality work in with predictable and rather short recoveries.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [S McGregor] [ In reply to ]
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S McGregor wrote:
cjbruin wrote:
So do Mark Allen & Dr. Maffetone have it completely wrong?

Allen's times in Kona 15-20 years ago are still some of the fastest ever. His training programs include aggressive base building at paces/heart rates that are difficult to maintain when you start (difficult to go that slow). He did this for 3-4 months during his base phase.

Why is this approach not a good one?

Edit...I'm not being a smart-ass. I really want to understand why the approach of a 6-time Kona winner is not the best one...or at least a valid one.


Um.... genetics?

Don't forget training time limited only by the need to eat and sleep. If someone has 30-40 hours/week to train, lots of Level 2 would probably be just fine.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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Your question makes me wonder what Mark Allen Online prescribes to their athletes. This would give a comparable reference to what MA thinks an age grouper should be doing.

Anyone? Anyone?
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [cjbruin] [ In reply to ]
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The problem with the Mark Allen approach is the obsession with Heart Rates and people (including MAO) making assumptions about what is happening at a given HR. The HR that is calculated is based on a rule of thumb that has no scientific basis. because of this there is room for error in thier programmes, but rules of thumb, have a funny way of working well for large sample sizes.

If you take a MAO HR based training and did all off your ong rides at say the bottom of the zone then you would be noodling around getting good at riding slow. If you work at the higher end of the HR zone (accepting the flaws of HR) then this approximates reasonably well to the 80-85 % type of pace prescribed in EN.

If you complete a MAO programme you will be very fit and you will do a lot of work at good intensities, some people will say that is in spite of the method, however the method provides the oppurtunity to do the work. The EN approach takes out the guess work and you know that you are doing the work and can see the improvement.

MAO are also encouraging folk to get out and do more races especially bike races due to people spending too much time at the easy part of the zone. Looking at the easy pace, which would be Mark riding at 155 BPM for 5 hours, how easy do you think that is, it is probably friggin fast and would get a godd TSS.

The HR and the assumptions they make are not solid but the method works in spite of this, excpet for people who noodle abotu too much and the error associated with HR based training
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
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Don't forget training time limited only by the need to eat and sleep. If someone has 30-40 hours/week to train, lots of Level 2 would probably be just fine.

That explains how they had the time to do a lot of base training, but not why they did it. I hear a lot of people argue that pros do a lot of base training because they have the time. That doesn't explain why they do it. Why would you do something that's of little to no benefit just because you have the time?

They do it because it works.

Not having the time to do a lot of base training doesn't mean it's not the best way to train for an endurance event. It just means it may not be the best way for you.

The problem with using FTP to determine Ironman power is that few people ever do a real FTP test - an hour at threshold. They only do 20 minute intervals and from that they extrapolate their FTP and from that determine their ironman power. So they're determining their 5-7 hour power based on a 20 minute test.

I know a lot of triathletes and cyclists who can hammer hard for 20 minutes or even an hour, but fall apart after 3 hours at a good, aerobic pace. The limiting factor for many, if not most, endurance athletes is endurance.

I'm not saying threshold work isn't valuable, but I don't see it as a substitute for good, aerobic base work. But I don't believe in one or the other either. I believe all levels need to be trained, although for long course I don't worry much about anything over threshold.
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