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Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance
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There has been a lot of good information on here lately pertaining to increasing FTP. I am wondering how best to match that goal with building to the distance for the bike portion of the IM. At this time of year, I am going to focus on FTP improvement, and wondering at what point I should begin building the long bike ride workout with a goal toward IM LP. As well, what is a reasonable % of FTP to be riding at for the long bike ride/IM bike leg.....thanks.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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i don't have a response at the moment for your post.....


i just wanted to say how i noticed your username and it made me almost spit out my tea. Fe=iron i get it.


Tim
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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I think you'll find most people will target between 68-72% of FTP, you can ride a little harder if you're off the bike faster.

As to when, whenever the snow melts, I would want at least 12 weeks of long riding though.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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fe_girl wrote:
There has been a lot of good information on here lately pertaining to increasing FTP. I am wondering how best to match that goal with building to the distance for the bike portion of the IM. At this time of year, I am going to focus on FTP improvement, and wondering at what point I should begin building the long bike ride workout with a goal toward IM LP. As well, what is a reasonable % of FTP to be riding at for the long bike ride/IM bike leg.....thanks.

If you are fit, it does not take much time to put "far" on top of "fast." You could emerge from a winter of doing consistent, hard, FTP interval training (consistency is key) and within 2 months be performing well at 4-5 hour efforts on the bike. Spend a couple of dollars on an Endurance Nation plan and date it backwards from IMLP. They have been refining that issue every year now for quite some time and have it pretty well worked out.

Simplify, Train, Live
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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I think building and increasing your FTP is a worthy pursuit but question the timing. Increasing your FTP will be most suited to performing well at the Oly to 70.3 distance. If performing well in an Ironman in your goal you'd be best suited doing a lot of long easy rides either on a trainer or outside now. Having lots of base will suit you well and what is required at this time to perform well in a July Ironman. In the Mar-May timeframe I'd start really working on speed with endurance (such as the FTP you mention). Make sense? Base-speed-build-taper-race.

Kona Kev
Go Reston Area Triathletes (RATS)!
Sponsored by Hammer Nutrition, Bonzai Sports, and DeSoto
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [ktkva] [ In reply to ]
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Are you sure about that?
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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I think building and increasing your FTP is a worthy pursuit but question the timing. Increasing your FTP will be most suited to performing well at the Oly to 70.3 distance. If performing well in an Ironman in your goal you'd be best suited doing a lot of long easy rides either on a trainer or outside now. Having lots of base will suit you well and what is required at this time to perform well in a July Ironman. In the Mar-May timeframe I'd start really working on speed with endurance (such as the FTP you mention). Make sense? Base-speed-build-taper-race.

This deserved better than a smart ass remark - so here is one.

I respectfully disagree, as will many on this forum. 12 months ago I would have possibly agree with you. 18 months ago, you would have had me eating out of your hand.

However, now you won't.

The problem with the approach you suggest is that to truly build a base that is able to sustain your through a FTP cycle and then a build requires WAY to much time to be sustainable for most folks year round, particularly if they live in a temperate climate. So that means most folks will try to include to much volume during their FTP building cycle that is taking place in april/may/june, and won't be able to dedicate enough focus on FTP work to truly raise it optimally. Or they'll start including races and both will be compromised. With very few exceptions it's becoming more and more apperant (and buzz worthy) that most atheltes are best suited for focusing on threshold during the winter months, and as it get's nice outside (and closer to a target race) cut back the threshold work to maintance and add the appropriate volume.

This lets folks succeed at all distances of racing - which as many of the old fogies contend helps build success as the desired distance.

To illustrate my conversion, I'll tell a short story.

12 months and 13 days ago, I had foot surgery. This basically prevented me from riding, running, swimming - hell even walking until the middle of march. Starting in late january I was able to spin stupid easy (read - 20 to 30 minutes at about 50 watts), just to keep me from killing someone. When I was able to begin training for "real" in mid march - I had essentially 0 endurance, my FTP was approximately 30% below my previous season peak - maybe more, and I had not run a step in 5 months.

I had a race in Olympic Distance race in 6 weeks, and the triple T in 10 weeks, and IMWI in 22 weeks. The approach I took was that I was WAY behind the 8 ball - so I focused on the componants for success for the races I had planned with the idea of optimizing success for each one. This meant that I spent the initial period of training focused on threshold work on the bike - the run was a totally different story, as I simply had to "learn" how to run again. As I closed in on the TTT I slowly added a little volume, but maintained the threshold work. As I closed in on IMWI, I kicked the volume up yet again.

The result? An excellent race at St. A's relative to the situation, a 2nd place Male Team OA @ the TTT - with a PR bike split in the half, and a run only 3 minutes slower than in 2008 when I was in great running shape. A PR HIM in July, a PR olympic in July, and a huge PR at IMWI.

I've done the build a base, and then try to add speed for 5 years, typically I never could deal with the threshold work on top of the volume - so it never happened. That and my HIM PR (legit) was set in 2006, and was only broken this year. I attribute a lot to the "build a base", but a attribute my break through to beating the shit out of the 8 ball, and then worrying about endurance.


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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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After 3 years in the sport, not much, I know, countless books, trial and error, I will partially answer your question. I am not qualified to fully discuss this as I obviously lack experience.
I am going to assume that you are an average AG athlete, have a life, family and a job, probably live in a colder climate.
I am towing the Endurance Nation line on this subject as I have been fully convinced that "Fast" than "Far" is the way to go and that it works. Before EN, I have attempted twice to raise FTP and train far to the tune of total volume on the bike of 8-10hrs a week and failed miserably. Overtrained each time due to lack of adequate recovery.
To race ironman distance bike, your effort will be based on percentage of your FTP. Equation is very simple, the higher the FTP, the higher your absolute value at which you race ironman will be. So, makes perfect sense to spend time raising FTP, than laying far on top of that.
If you were a "pro" unlimited time for training and recovery, maybe a different story. You could than also approach that with volume on the bike and ride yourself to death at 400mi/week and achieve similar, with most of your riding at ironman goal effort or power.
There is more than one way to achieve the goal, just have to pick the one that suits your lifestyle the best and that will be optimum for you.
Once again, fast and far at he same time for an average person, I don't think is optimum.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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fe_girl wrote:
There has been a lot of good information on here lately pertaining to increasing FTP. I am wondering how best to match that goal with building to the distance for the bike portion of the IM. At this time of year, I am going to focus on FTP improvement, and wondering at what point I should begin building the long bike ride workout with a goal toward IM LP. As well, what is a reasonable % of FTP to be riding at for the long bike ride/IM bike leg.....thanks.

I suggest your start with a framework which will inevitably help you sort out the details. The framework should incorporate a training philosophy based on a set of principles and a periodized training program. I'll give you an example:

I won't get into my specific philosophy and principles but my training program consists of two basic periods which are General Prep (~16 weeks) and Race-Specific Prep (~8 weeks). The GP period will consist of multiple 8-week training blocks. To address your question, one of the things I focus on during GP is increasing my FTP and one of the things I focus on during RSP is increasing long ride training stress with an emphasis on race-specific execution. The approach basically falls under the the general philosophy behind the concept of "raise the left, fill the right." My idea of race-specific execution has to do with 1) riding solo or in very small groups where no drafting occurs 2) primarily done n the aero position

The end of GP and starting with RSP is probably a good time to start building the volume of your long ride but the best time is quite individual. The appropriate intensity depends on multiple factors too. There are some number of people who believe that you need to do your long ride at target IM power but I think they're dead wrong. Remember, one of the fundamental principles of the sport is progressive overload. There is an ideal amount of training stress you need to achieve as you build fitness through your training program so the ideal intensity will depend on factors like long ride volume, total weekly volume (this includes the run) and the intensity of your surrounding training (which also includes the run). I believe that most time-constrained athletes will need to do a bulk of their long rides at >IM power. Now this doesn't mean you shouldn't spend any time practicing pacing at target IM power but there needs to be an understanding of what component of your training is fundamentally responsible for building fitness. Riding at IM power at the expense of not achieving the appropriate amount of training stress is a focus away from the fundamentals, imho.

I avoided getting into more specific details because I can't address them, nor can anyone else, without knowing more about your schedule, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

Thanks, Chris
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [ktkva] [ In reply to ]
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ktkva wrote:
I think building and increasing your FTP is a worthy pursuit but question the timing. Increasing your FTP will be most suited to performing well at the Oly to 70.3 distance. If performing well in an Ironman in your goal you'd be best suited doing a lot of long easy rides either on a trainer or outside now. Having lots of base will suit you well and what is required at this time to perform well in a July Ironman. In the Mar-May timeframe I'd start really working on speed with endurance (such as the FTP you mention). Make sense? Base-speed-build-taper-race.

Does not make sense at all. Are you saying that 4-5 hour rides outdoors right now is a good idea? Not going to happen in most of the country, too cold, too much snow, dark too early. How about 4-5 hour trainer rides? That is insane and the best way to kill a love for the sport. Buildiing base with LSD on the bnike in the winter is an unrealistic recommendation. It makes more sense to build FTP on the trainer when it is too cold (and dark) to ride outdoors, then start to build some distance when the weather gets better. That way, when you are riding far, you can do it fast. Not too much fitness to be gained in tooling around slow and easy anyway. A more effective approach to long rides is to put in some sustained interval efforts during the long rides. This is easily done after a winter doing hard FTP work on the trainer. Besides going from fast to long is in essence going from less specific to more specific, which is a more correct approach to periodization for Ironman (different than Olys and even 1/2s).
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe a better way of looking at it is:


  • last summer/fall's long course race specific prep is your base for this winter's FTP training
  • This winter's FTP training is "speedwork" for next summer's long course season
....and the cycle repeats itself.

This cycle works better than trying to do a "base period"-"intensity period"-"race period" - "recovery/restoration period", sequentially in a span of 12 months starting say on Jan 1

Instead you just have


  • Intensity Period
  • Race Period
  • Recovery/Restoration

Since you're racing long course, your race period just happens to be the base period for "next year"
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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good description!


Fitness is a continium.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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So the caveat here is that the newbie rider or a rider who had a looong layoff should not dive into FTP type of training this winter, without "getting some base" first. For athletes who were racing "long" last summer, they already have base.

Dev
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Maybe a better way of looking at it is:


  • last summer/fall's long course race specific prep is your base for this winter's FTP training
  • This winter's FTP training is "speedwork" for next summer's long course season
....and the cycle repeats itself.

This cycle works better than trying to do a "base period"-"intensity period"-"race period" - "recovery/restoration period", sequentially in a span of 12 months starting say on Jan 1

Instead you just have


  • Intensity Period
  • Race Period
  • Recovery/Restoration

Since you're racing long course, your race period just happens to be the base period for "next year"

...and training for edot/stupidity 2014 started yesterday!

the higher your FTP the faster you will be able to ride at all distances...hard to imagine any possible drawback to raising FTP. Hell of a lot easier to practice riding easy for long periods of time than to do lots of FTP work. Same goes for running fast, hurts, so people don't do it.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure if running workouts can translate into bike workouts, but short fast high intensity work outs are equal or more effective than a long low intensity work out.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I know what you're saying, but I don't know if I'd phrase it that way.

I think that threshold work would still have a place in a new athletes diet, but the focus would be less obsessive I'd think.

Did you read my earlier post?
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I did read your post. By looong layoff I was thinking 3+ years. I think the athlete in that boat would want to get all the joining tissue (tendons/ligaments) working for while even in a low impact sport like biking before hammering too hard....especially an older athlete (but maybe I am just being overly conservative....certainly would apply to running).
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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details :)
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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So alot of what people are saying, is in line with this article, which someone posted in another post a few days ago...

http://biketechreview.com/...ase-a-new-definition
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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fe_girl wrote:
So alot of what people are saying, is in line with this article, which someone posted in another post a few days ago...http://biketechreview.com/...ase-a-new-definition[/quote[/url]]

fe_girl, i think it's easy to miss what i think is the point of that article. There is a Power/Duration curve that is fairly predictable for well trained athletes. Improving FTP, or 20 MP, is a good way to push the curve up. However, that does not mean that improving your 20 MP will always improve your speed at the far end of the duration curve (or the begining either).

The best predictor of the marathon time (stand alone) is 10k time. But that doesn't mean that you only have to train for a fast 10k to have a great marathon. You have to do a lot of long runs as well.

So, the question for a non-elite / non-full time training person is 'how much of each' is best for optimal perfomance. That of course depends on a lot of variables. But one thing for sure (at least for me) is that when you're riding 5-6 hrs and thinking the whole time 'i have to pace myself to be ready for the marathon' it helps if you've done that distance (or close to it) a bunch of times in training.

good luck

______________________________________
"Competetive sport begins where healthy sport ends"
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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Reading this forum, one would believe there are only 2 zones to train in, slow or threshold, and that you have to choose one or the other.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [Supersquid] [ In reply to ]
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I think it depends on who you are listening to.

There are a number of threads where folks like lakerfan and Rich Strauss et al. are promoting, threshold work, and SST type work.

Others promote a bit more on/off.

Yet others the traditional "build a base"

I tend to think it is more dependent upon the time of year in relation to your A race, what your A race is, and what your current aerobic "skillset" is.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [fe_girl] [ In reply to ]
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If you read slowtwitch a lot you would start thinking that you need to focus on a very special kind of aerobic capacity to improve your FTP. And you would almost start believing that increasing that special kind of aerobic capacity needs to be the focus for a specific time of the year. Some coaches can even sell you a training plan for this magic aerobic capacity!
Last edited by: big slow mover: Dec 28, 10 6:40
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:
I think it depends on who you are listening to.

There are a number of threads where folks like lakerfan and Rich Strauss et al. are promoting, threshold work, and SST type work.

Others promote a bit more on/off.

Yet others the traditional "build a base"

I tend to think it is more dependent upon the time of year in relation to your A race, what your A race is, and what your current aerobic "skillset" is.


I think it also depends on the the individual too. Not everyone adapts to the same type of training stimulus in the same way and at the same rate. I've tried the LSD base training for a number of years and it never worked for me. My FTP drops way too much and it takes way longer for me to get it back than my endurance. I'm sure that could work the opposite for some folks.
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Re: Increasing FTP and Building IM Bike Distance [packetloss] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
My FTP drops way too much and it takes way longer for me to get it back than my endurance. I'm sure that could work the opposite for some folks.


There's a reason it drops :)




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