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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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I have rear camera video from inside t1 until probably 40 miles.. My front camera(under aero bars) locked up on me and I didn't notice until about 9 miles into the bike when I switched to the second camera(to cover after first battery ran out) after I spent some time trying to get the first one going.
But the rear shot shows how separated things were even then at least as I was passing people and as far as you can see down the road. the cameras are 170 degree wide angle lens so looks distorted.
I'll get some clips(youtube allows max 10 minutes which should be enough) to show how spread out it was this go around the first 10 miles or so you'd be suprised.
Now granted I came out in 1:19 with 6 minute transition and don't know right now the arrival rate of swimmers to riders on the course at that time (you can pretty much see as I'm exiting the transition)
wish I had front view for that part a bit dissapointing but the rear shows as I pass people of course we had a great tail wind on that stretch.

so when I get a chance I'll post some of that as well its not high def though like the helmet cam.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Chris Lieto twittered this yesterday: "Talked w/ Ironman & things will be changing with the drafting. Watch what you do, because people are watching. Beware!"

Head down, thumbs up, give'r
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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So let me get this straight.
  1. You were on the road and out of T1 in 1:26.
  2. Aside from perhaps 1 or 2 athletes that can make up this deficit in an older age group (like 65-69), no one that you filmed is gunning for a Kona slot or a podium.
  3. So its not like any of these guys are even trying to get a leg up on the next guy in their age group for some "prize".
  4. These are people willing to cheat themselves just for a faster time.
  5. In which case, why not just sign up for a marathon where the bike time is 100% irrelevent (there is no bike time)

Sorry, but this detail had escaped me. I thought you were filming front of pack guys gunning for prizes watching Kona slots ride up the road from them and feeling like they have no choice but to hop on the train (you can always choose to not hop on the train but....)

Dev
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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And if all these "cheaters" did not sign up for races and have a good time for THEIR goals, we would either have no races, or they would be a LOT more expensive.
Be careful what you ask for. The few FOP folks do not pay for the races, it is all the MOP and BOPers.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave....calm down. I'm just saying that the FOP folks who justify drafting say they "need to" because person XYZ is getting a free ride up the road for their KOna/podium spot. They justify this behavior because the guy who is trying to "steal their lunch" is doing it. But for the guy not trying to beat the other guy and just better themselves, what is incentive in getting a free ride aside from laziness, or bragging about a fast bike split/overall time to impress someone else?....in the latter case the athlete is cheating himself. In the former case the athlete is cheating himself and the competition, but justifies the "cheating oneself issue" with "its part of the competition rationale"

Dev
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
So let me get this straight.
  1. You were on the road and out of T1 in 1:26.
  2. Aside from perhaps 1 or 2 athletes that can make up this deficit in an older age group (like 65-69), no one that you filmed is gunning for a Kona slot or a podium.
  3. So its not like any of these guys are even trying to get a leg up on the next guy in their age group for some "prize".
  4. These are people willing to cheat themselves just for a faster time.
  5. In which case, why not just sign up for a marathon where the bike time is 100% irrelevent (there is no bike time)

Sorry, but this detail had escaped me. I thought you were filming front of pack guys gunning for prizes watching Kona slots ride up the road from them and feeling like they have no choice but to hop on the train (you can always choose to not hop on the train but....)

Dev
Well I did pass a ton of bikes first 25 miles..I was averaging 22.2 until about 25 miles until the head wind on highway 20.
last year I was about 20 minutes up the road, 1:13 5:17 bike last year. I'm 54. not super fast but not back of the pack.

I was 5th in age group and got a kona spot in 2002 at this race. with 1:17 swim and 5:12 bike and I had to blast through a lot of packs back then.
I've been seeing these packs for years even when I was faster 10:18 in 2002. I was 10:30 last year after a long couple year burnout.
they still distrupt everyone elses race you either have to slow down let them go or try to out run them because I refuse to join them. I'll ruin my own race just to not drat which sucks.
But if you ask around some of the front runners its the same up the course as well. I know a guy who went 9:52 and he said it was worse than my video up where he was and he had a flat at 60 miles.
doesn't matter whether they were gunning for kona spots. I think I hit the run at 7 hours about 40 minutes slower than last year.
I was slower this year due to dislocated shoulder earlier in year not completely healed, sprained ankle 2 weeks prior(hurt the run and run training) and pulled soleus 4 times over the last 5 months so was not at my best for sure. Had better race at louisville 10 weeks earlier. I wish florida had been 3 weeks after that would have been different.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [ In reply to ]
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Chris Lieto twittered this yesterday: "Talked w/ Ironman & things will be changing with the drafting. Watch what you do, because people are watching. Beware!"
yep my guess they will ban cameras.... I used one at nol 70.3 ,gulf coast ,memphis in may. Used the 3 camera setup at ironman louisville(front rear) but funny wasn't able to get any packs at that race..therefore i didn't post any... hmmmmmm Wonder why......Uh could it be time trial start and lots of hills......and they had 2916 starting.

Interesting video though you can see all sorts of situations that come up folks chargin up a hill then dying and your right there do you pull back 7 meters after they pass and die while your
going up steady even power or do you just keep going and pass even though you didn't drop back..

first hill you have bikes all over the road at 8 miles at louisville.. Do you try to back off 7 meters in the crowd only to have more bikes 2 abreast behind you come along and back off more
while your all going 8 mph what do you do... So yes there are situations where you get stuck and probably both of those are observable by a marshal to know what happened and some leeway
given.. Even had to pass a couple of folks on the right after 3 "on your lefts" a few times it happens.. But theres no excuse for what my video shows not any attempt to clear out in the packs.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, who cares what it is for them. Why should anyone else even waste their energy worrying about it. Is it hurting anyone else? I am just glad they are out there staying in shape. I am glad they are helping cover costs. These are all good people. Why do some spend so much time trying to say they are real real bad people for having different values and goals that some of the lucky people with good genetics and lack of injuries have. If our sport would spend more energy trying to include, rather than exclude based on their "opinions" of what is right or wrong, our sport would be much better off.

And I do not really care if it is FOP or MOP or BOP. I do not care if they draft or take drugs. When I get home it has not impacted me or my family in one bit, unless I let it. Will ANY of this make any difference on our death beds?

Just a total waste of energy. Who really cares about beating anyone else? There is always someone better. With my back injury, my racing days might be over. Sure glad I have not wasted a lot of energy trying to force my values onto others. Lead by example, and keeps opinions to well how about the mirror in the morning. :o)

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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what cameras did you use? I've wanted to get a handlebar cam to catch vehicular assaults for a long time.

Here is a link to an amazing camera that a local Cat 2 has installed in his helmet. He records 3-4 hour road races on there in HD, so it must have a ton of storage capacity. http://vimeo.com/user527841/videos

I'm pretty sure that Bryan would be willing to divulge the hardware/software setup he is using to record this stuff.
battery life is more a problem than storage and 8 gig sdhc card will hold 4 hours on the vhold hd I believe but battery life is 2 hours.
the helmet cam I was using will hold 8 hours on an 8 gig card I think if standard def at 60 fps.
the gopro cameras I used were limited to 3 hours(with 2 aaa lithium batteries) 2 gig per hour I had 4 gig card in there but software limits 4 gig file so I have to stop it at some point and restart
4 gig is 1:52 or around.
new cameras coming out will take 32 gig card plus external battery but won't be waterproof with the attachment)
gopro and vhold have 1080p versions coming out now.
theres even one company with stereo camera so you can do 3d with glasses using software after you take the video.
theres some amazing video out there where a mountain bike race put camera on a boom on his helmet with ball bearing attachment so camera swings in 360 around him looking at his face
then he just tilts his head and it swings amazing video especially when put to music. Base jumpers over in norway(with the flying suits) are using the new gopro hd camera to test.
Awesome footage.. Actually triathlon bike legs are quite boreing video if you ask me...
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry man, but I don't want a bunch of cheating lying douchebags coasting their way to artificial times at T2 in the sport, even if it means they have healthier lives. I'd prefer that they go workout and play weekend touch football or in the local softball league if they want to totally cheat while being healthy.

If you've done this sport long enough you'll get a drafting penalty here and there. That's fine, with the number of folks on the course, at times even the most clean guy can get stuck in an iffy situation and gets dinged by a marshall. No worries. Its happened to PNF and Tim De Boom on thier ways to victory at Kona.

It's the folks playing in our sport who blatently get into packs and do nothing to ride clean....so yes, I don't want those folks in the sport no matter how healthy they are physically. Go play some other sport, just don't come to play non drafting triathlon please.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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did this drafting take place throughout the enitre ride or was it just the first few minutes and miles into the ride? i know the rules and i'll gladly abide by them myself but i just think that under those circumstances, with so, so many people and not enough road (width wise) that it's feasible for a few minutes as everyone sorts themselves out. now if it was like that the entire time than of course it's a blatant disrespect for the triathlon..

It's not about the bike, it's just along for the ride.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Lets start putting bid #'s to names and post them. This may put a stop to this cheating.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev one simple answer "LEGALIZE DRAFTING"
Of course that would mean the run portion would be a bit more competitive for the "natural" or runners who work hard to run "natural". Of course then the cyclist " Rodies:" would want to get rid of our cool TT bikes w/aero bars and we cannot have that.

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [roadhouse] [ In reply to ]
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I love how excuses are made.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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All I can say is this would not have been the kind of person I thought you were based on your posts I have read over the years.

As I said, life is way way to short to get so worked up over these stupid games we play, IMO.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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yep my guess they will ban cameras[/quote]You really think so? Unless there is some type of safety problem with a camera setup I think a ban on cameras would be seen for what it is, an attempt to quash the evidence. I don't think it is too far in the future when everyone will have helmet cams (at least when training), which can be used kind of like a black box, which is a bit grim to think of though.


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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [ In reply to ]
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They will follow the Whitehouses lead. Ban your free rights.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bmanners] [ In reply to ]
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All you guys talking about legalizing drafting....why don't you just go sign up for a marathon or a 10K if you don't care about the bike.

Seriously, if you allow drafting, I'm going to laugh all the way to the bank since I am an above average runner for a 44 year old guy. A draft legal race favours, me, but that's not what its about. I'll just get some of my best buddies to sign up for every IM with me and tow me to T2 without ever putting my nose in the wind and uncork a 3:10 marathon at every IM after he pulls me to a 5:00 ride on a course like LP. That's bullshit.

Its about guys playing or not playing in the rules.

Like I said, when there is some early congestion, it is possible for honest guys to momentarily get caught in a group just because of the sheer density of folks on the road.

But after a short time, there is no excuse.
  • Courses don't cause drafting or packs
  • Lack of marshalling does not cause drafting or draft packs
  • People who choose to not play within the rules cause them

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Dev, who cares what it is for them. Why should anyone else even waste their energy worrying about it. Is it hurting anyone else? I am just glad they are out there staying in shape. I am glad they are helping cover costs. These are all good people. Why do some spend so much time trying to say they are real real bad people for having different values and goals that some of the lucky people with good genetics and lack of injuries have. If our sport would spend more energy trying to include, rather than exclude based on their "opinions" of what is right or wrong, our sport would be much better off.

And I do not really care if it is FOP or MOP or BOP. I do not care if they draft or take drugs. When I get home it has not impacted me or my family in one bit, unless I let it. Will ANY of this make any difference on our death beds?

Just a total waste of energy. Who really cares about beating anyone else? There is always someone better. With my back injury, my racing days might be over. Sure glad I have not wasted a lot of energy trying to force my values onto others. Lead by example, and keeps opinions to well how about the mirror in the morning. :o)

Dave
That is too funny. How much energy have you wasted telling people not to waste energy talking about drafting? you've probably got more posts on this thread than anyone but gholmes. take a look in that mirror and look at yourself instead of others. sad, but hilarious.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, they should ban cameras. They are a potential safety issue. It takes your focus on riding the bike.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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All I can say is this would not have been the kind of person I thought you were based on your posts I have read over the years.

As I said, life is way way to short to get so worked up over these stupid games we play, IMO.

Dave

We have have different impressions of Dev. This is exactly how I would expect him to respond and I agree 100%.
I'm not shooting for a Kona spot, it's just not going to happen, but expect the people around me, the people I'm racing against for 575th place, to race clean. This sport isn't just about Kona and podium spots, the rules are rules and you don't get to cheat just because you won't win.
I did Clearwater and the blatant cheating left a very sour taste in my mouth. I haven't done an M-dot race since.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [leggett24] [ In reply to ]
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Let me be clear. I cannot stand folks who knowingly break the rules. I have seen the drafting, I have seen the cut the course, I have seen the pacing, outside assistance, water temp was 77.9, etc.
Yes, I have seen athletes ignore the rules, and I have seen RD's ignore the rules. BUT, after many attempts to try and deal with some of these issues, and always ending up being the "bad" guy for asking why the system does not enforce the rules, I have gotten to the point of who cares what others do. It does not impact me since I am only doing the sport for me. I have been attacked many times on ST for asking why rules are not followed, like ipods in a race, and I get slammed. I just smile now when some of these same folks who ignore the ipod rule, get on their high horse about drafting. Too many of these folks have selective rule enforcement attitudes.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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i have a fun but irresponsible idea

someone who is a fast swimmer bring a paintball gun on the bike with them

bike slow, so that you get to see every peleton go by

paint every drafter with the gun



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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Always amazing - you pay $500 to get towed around a course and hopefully get a kona spot. Hardest part is the fast girls who get caught up in all the packs of men because a guy won't let them pass.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I have selective enforcement attitude. I absolutely disagree with you that the highschool runner should have been DQd for wearing underware with the wrong stitching. What I do believe is that rules should be rigorously applied where a competitive advantage is taken.

Let me ask you a real life example. I did a tri quite a few years ago where the ruls stated you had to have a helmet number. They also had a rule prohibiting littering. The helmet number wasn't sticky and fell of almost imediately. I doubt any competitor finished with the number on the helmet, most were on the pavement as you exited T1/T2. Would you have DQd all of the athletes at the race?

One other question. In past threads you take great pride (and rightfully so) in qualifying for the WC. If you were one spot out and a pack of 5 competitors in your AG passed you on the bike that really wouldn't bother you?

Styrrell

Styrrell
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