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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [WildSide] [ In reply to ]
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Wildside, are you in the video by any chance?
No. I think I was behind this guy all day. I just think that it is crappy to post something so misleading when he knew what he was posting. I said in my post there was drafting, no doubt. There were obvious wheel suckers that weren't interested in passing, I pulled some myself at times. There were also inevitable big packs that were riding at least close to legal distance or in the spirit of the rule and did bunch up at turns, intersections and aid stations. Especially early in the day. There was also the 3 and 4 wide passing that got to be a cluster at times. Not a perfect race by any means!

The people stopping to take a leak by the side of the road after being begged not to at the pre-race meeting mystified me too. Why can't people just follow the rules? I also saw some pretty fast folks running (pacing?) with non-competitors at times. Lots to bitch about but this video isn't it.
if you were behind me all day then you know your pretty much lieing.. I have continous video from a rear camera from t1 all the way to the 388 out and back. I had times there was no one behind me at all. This was just the first video and its not misleading you obviously haven't watched it.
Was not early in the day.. Actually I thought I'd see packs on 79 going north because it happened last year (granted I was a bit slower out of the water this year) got to highway 20
went almost 10 miles before this pack came along I'd almost given up thinking well not going to see anything today. So they were not neck and neck bunched up there are huge gaps
between these packs and we were spread out a whole lot. I guess I'll have to find a way to upload a whole hour and a half continous video to prove it if I can find a web site that will let me do it.
I'll have to find some video of you if you were indeed behind me since I have your first name(if that is your real name) since you seem to know my name which I freely post gholmes is my handle
and my name is Gary Holmes I'm from Memphis so you when you thought you were being cool calling me out you were instead being a jerk.

This wasn't a whim. I've done this race 10 times and I've been wanting to catch video a long time but just didn't have the right cameras. This was not early in the day this was around 35 miles(I have gps I'm going to sync with rear camera since I have mat timeing and it ran continous
my helmet cam I only turned on (hd camera) when I saw something worth watching. My front camera locked up while on 79 and I had to switch cameras (two front only 3 hours per camera).
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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I agree and have proposed one solution to this. Put a GPS tracking unit on each bike. The head official could then see where the packs are, and send out the limited marshalls to be with these packs.
This would meet your first goal to stop the packs. Now this probably means still more money to get more motorcycles and officials. This always basically asking then to do this for free does not show
they are real serious, IMO.

I am totally in support of what you are trying to do! I for years have given ideas on things to try, and all I get is a cold shoulder from all the organizations. Does this show you they really care?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.[/quote]

You're very welcome. Hopefully we will have twice as many marshals next year. That will help a lot.

JR
Ditto on that I even see a few folks in penalty tent in my video. Just want to state here publicly that I believe you are doing the best you can with the resources you have and in no way
are these videos I took a statement against you and the other marshals. Pretty much the race format, course layout make your job very tough at this race in particular gulf coast tri has had the same problem for years. I've done ironman florida 10 times and gulf coast 13..

Ironman Louisville was great with the time trial start and 2900 starting I saw no packs anywhere things were spread out well which goes to show what a time trial start and lots of hills on a course can do. My main beef at florida has been the large packs I've seen them every year multiple on most are on highway 20. They break up just after special needs usually then some regroup
on the out and back. This year I saw some on 388 going west where I had never seen large groups before probably because the road is newly paved where it used to rattle your teeth and you couldn't stay in a pack.

I talked to some athletes who were 20 minutes up the road from where I was (hour swim,faster bike) and they saw the same thing as well.
If we can find some solution to break up these packs then I believe things will go much better..

I'd like to see wave starts personally figureing they won't cut back on number of entrants which would help.
If they could create some pinch points on the course like the out and back turn around that might help some epsecially if there were marshals stationed just before and after up the road if they try to regruop since there are no major climbs to help out.

Its a tough job and you've got 5 million opinions out there.

Thanks for trying..
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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So the answer your suggesting is to jack up the price so that GPS and officials can be used. We all know WTC wont pay for these extra stuff without putting the costs back to the customer.

So here is the question: Do enough people really care about drafting, that 2500 people will still sell out IM FL with $1k entry fees? You've all along seem to suggest that this "bitching about drafting" is more or less isolated to really a small minority. So it would seem by your logic, that people wouldnt want to pay that high costs?

Maybe the would, maybe they wouldnt. Does WTC want to take that chance to find out? Hell no.

So what do you think? Will IM FL sell out for $1k dollars but your going to get a fair race with no drafting?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Great video, what a mess. I did FL in 08 and got eaten up by group about the same spot in the race. Near the end it was very clean riding and I was even out there by myself a few times it seemed like. Not sure how you can stop it entirely but I'm sure they could crack down a bit harder.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I agree and have proposed one solution to this. Put a GPS tracking unit on each bike. The head official could then see where the packs are, and send out the limited marshalls to be with these packs.
This would meet your first goal to stop the packs. Now this probably means still more money to get more motorcycles and officials. This always basically asking then to do this for free does not show
they are real serious, IMO.

I am totally in support of what you are trying to do! I for years have given ideas on things to try, and all I get is a cold shoulder from all the organizations. Does this show you they really care?

Dave
I agree with you on that use gps or other means (spotters at the known gathering spots like 25 miles of highway 20 at florida) to help break the packs up.
I don't think we are even close to removing human observation to solve this problem at least not in the near future but if you combine gadgets like gps,remote video,ranging devices
then there might be some hope.
As I said I wasn't out to catch a drafter I passed up (although probably have some on the continous video) a bunch I was wanting to get the packs which have aggravated me for the last 10 years on that course.

I do work with computer vision and I've been trying to find solution to using that to measure distance between riders,tracking them and so on but its still not an easy thing today with the current
rules. the fact you can be passing someone passing someone then they have to drop back or you are passing a long line of riders.. All of that throws alot of noise in there and makes the task
very difficult if not impossible.. I've toyed with retroreflective fiucials (pretty much how wii works except with ir led's) you can measure distance and location very easily and pretty accurate
just by knowing the distance between the leds and your camera or imaging properties like focal length,and field of view. But its made difficult in the daylight.
I've toyed with a bunch of ideas using camera spaced out tracking the numbers but the fact that 20 seconds to pass can take you 645 feet at 22 mph you'd have to have them spaced out enough
to follow any progress and with the above postition changes it would be difficult at least to automate it(meaning computer vision and recognition did all the work like traffic cams for speeding tickets) it just won't work without some major constraints..
BUT add to all of this human observers then just let the gps and cameras be their tools then you might can come up with something that would work.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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More motor bikes does not equal more danger. The much bigger danger is a bunch of triathletes riding in a pack in their aerobars. Has there been a multi bike pileup yet at IM-Fl? If not, it is overdue. Once you start hauling off the course mangled bikes and mangled bodies, then we might see a change in tune.


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you know my name, look up my number
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Why don't you watch the video and see I was not holding any camera in my hand.

Look again I did not hold a minolta camera while going through an aid station. The handheld you see is an ollympus by the way but it was tucked away in my skin suit when I was in a crowd.



Um, well if you say so. Priceless.
Last edited by: Toby Tri: Nov 11, 09 13:33
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [ In reply to ]
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My experience is the motor bikes are a danger. You do not always hear them coming. They do not yell on your left like most folks do when they pass. So just my experience.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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I know that some GPS companies have offered to help on some races with free use of the GPS units. You do not need more officials to start with, just have the ones you got where they are needed.
I cannot tell you how much time I have spent as a marshall and there were basically no riders to worry about. Now, if we were told to get to a certain area because a big pack is being seen, well,
would could have been more effective.

As I said. These units have been offered for free to put on all the pro bikes. Or maybe certain AG's. FOR FREE. So, money is not the excuse. Wonder what it is? :o)

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Start with putting the GPS units on the bikes of the worst AG, or two. They will now know they are being watched. I bet just this will clean up some of it. And I know that initially this would be offered
free for testing. I just have not been able to get anyone from USAT or WTC to seem to care.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Toby Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Watch the damn video! He's much more stable than many racing there, and how is that any different than holding a water bottle? You just trying to discredit him???? He's really bringing attention to this terrible problem; even to the extent of pro triathletes posting the link and commenting unfavorably as to the drafting. The guy's a damn hero, as he's trying to make change happen.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I cannot tell you how much time I have spent as a marshall and there were basically no riders to worry about. Now, if we were told to get to a certain area because a big pack is being seen, well, would could have been more effective.

GPS will certainly provide that info, but course spotters are also effective at locating the packs, if they are equipped to communicate. Timing mats can also help, if the timers can set up some kind of alert when excessive #s pass through (and communicate same)

Penalties, technology, more officials - all treating the symptom. Gonna have to deal with the cause...
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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So I have one question gholmes - did you sign up for next year's IMFL?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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Anything that would be tried differently would be better than basically the nothing that has been changed over the years.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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And the cause is ?

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [imsparticus] [ In reply to ]
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So I have one question gholmes - did you sign up for next year's IMFL?
yep I still like the race I've done everyone except 2006. I do better on a flat course. I have friends with beach house(its the house at mile 1 on run with all the girls dressed up and elvis this year).
I do it and have fun and everyonce in a while a good race its end of season. BUT I am also going to st george and canada next year as well.
I just don't like the packs and wanted to get video of that doesn't mean I won't do the race.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Toby Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Why don't you watch the video and see I was not holding any camera in my hand.

Look again I did not hold a minolta camera while going through an aid station. The handheld you see is an ollympus by the way but it was tucked away in my skin suit when I was in a crowd.



Um, well if you say so. Priceless.
First do you see an aid station thats what the poster said I was holding up a camera while going through a crowded aid station. NOT that was about 30-40 seconds after this.
Second it's not a minolta its an olympus water proof camera. this was my back up because I've had problems(even in this race) with my aero bar mounted camera and seat post locking up or running out of battery. The other backup which this video is from is a helmet mounted (on side of my aero) I just had to flick a switch listen for the beep and it was on turn off 2 beeps its off.
I put this one away when it was not safe to do so.. SO as usual trollers just blab don't look at the video or read what was said and always starting sh...t but guess what its in your face..
NO AID STATION.. Go back and read Wildsides post
"Why aren't we pointing out how dangerous Gary Holmes is for riding into an aid station with his fucking "Minolta" camera out in one hand? You see the porta pottys on the right at the end. What is his motivation? "

I was not riding into an aid station if you watch the video(watch both go see the otherone with front and rear camera) we were just over a minute before hitting the aid station thats .3 miles roughly. The hd video where you see me with the camera you can see me put it up before we hit the aid station where I passed everyone. I'll have to post the hd for that section I guess.
I have other video some of the same guys(in fact some who were always up front and having to deal with other riders on their tails then a new group doing same later).
I have some on the out and back of a smaller group I passed twice which split at the turn then I saw them later on the newly paved 388 same people just widdled down some.
So when I get a chance to go through 16 gig of video I'll post this was just the first because I noted the mileage at 34 miles so I could remember it.
I'm a software engineer and damn good one for over 30 years and I'm very analytical. My main body of work now is computer vision so you better get your ducks in a row if your going to argue these lame points.
By the way Wildsides also says he was behind me or thought he was most of the race there are only two Ryans from naples listed in results. One was way faster than I on swim and bike so can't be him. The other was about 8 minutes back at start of bike and I was averageing 22.4 until about 28 mile into the bike when the head winds got me so if hes one of these two hes very confused
because niether were near me.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello
Point of clarification if you don't mind - most IMs these days leave a lot of athletes with no choice but to break the rules. The sheer volume of athletes hitting the bike course over a short period of time makes it mathematically impossible for all athletes to ride legal, and still ride their own race.



At 32.5km/h, a cyclist covers 2667 meters in 5 minutes. The rules state that riders should keep 7 meters between bikes, so if you add the length of the bike then you need roughly 9 meters for each bike/draft zone. Those 2667 meters will theoretically accommodate 296 riders, if they are perfectly spaced.

Checked the IMFL results and found 280 swimmers exited the water between 1:05 and 1:10. They could, theoretically, ride legal. From 1:10 to 1:15 there were 405 swimmers exit, then 368, 306 and 277 in successive 5 minute segments. 2/3s of the field are packed on the course in a space that is too small to accommodate them and all still be legal.

Hypothetical? Yes, but I think it illustrates well the problem. Sure, some will be legal in that space, but only because there are also groups of 70 milling about three abreast in a space of about 150 meters.

I sympathize with you, having to answer for a situation that is not your creation. It's like the NFL telling teams to field 12 players, but instructing the referees to penalize a team for having more than 11. But this illustration, and the video from the OP, shows that for somebody swimming 1:12 it is highly probable they will at some point on the bike, be in a position violation unless they sit on the side of the road for 20 minutes until the steady stream of wheel-to-wheel riders abates.

More officials and bigger penalties aren't going to have any effect, unless the density on the bike course is properly managed so that the athletes intentionally breaking rules are isolated.
Maybe to some level early on but theres no excuse for those larger packs..
I agree some what the first 5 to 10 miles dependin on the course. Louisville I did not see that thanks to time trial start with 2916 starting.
If all these riders are stable going same speed then your point is taken but its not a linear world there. you have varying speeds and abilities amongst the bikes and as long as they are moving to pass and dropping back things should spread out over time and they do. I came out at 1:19 plus 6 minute transition(you need to account for that as well) I was very suprised how little bunching
went on the first 20 miles maybe because I was riding fast and passing most of the time but it was not impossible to keep from drafting. The videos are at 34 miles into the race...
And I do agree too many people for mass start,flat course without a lot of turns things get bunched up early but once they spread out theres no excuse.
If you watch the videos or if I could show videos between theres large gaps with no bikes. I made effort to pass them
then get passed back but they still were in formation.. I've done 29 of these 28 halfs probably over 250 triathlons in my time and I've never gotten a penalty been racing since 1986.
blocking and drafting like this at 35 miles into the race theres no excuse.
Last edited by: gholmes: Nov 11, 09 18:57
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [ In reply to ]
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But it isn't like car traffic on a highway - it is in fact bicycle traffic on a highway, which means that you have inadvertently hit on a reason why 2 or 3 abreast is prohibited. On an open course, you can't have riders spread out across the road as that will cause all sorts of issues with traffic, race officials etc. It creates a seriously dangerous situation for the riders because vehicular traffic is then squeezed on the roadway and the risk of accidents is exponentially greater - as is the chance that riders in the vicinity will be involved.

The other reason? If three or four lanes of riders are spread across the entire road "passing" what about the guy behind who is actually faster than any of them? The drafting rules are very loosely written, and open to pretty broad interpretation, including yours. But I can tell you that the scenario you present will actually build the pack, not control it.
First theres some truth in what you say just the math is bit simplistic.. you really need to consider some qeueing models(which I'm not very good) and throw in some real numbers from timeing
and conditions and cyclist interaction its not a linear system its actually more of a statistical model I'd think.
Actually it is unfortunatelly many drivers do not drive correctly.. 2 lane highway (same direction) right lane is for cruising ,exiting and entering. Left lane is for passing some states its a law and technically you can get a ticket for riding continuosly in left lane on the freeway but rarely enforced aka blocking. drafting is illegal too (following too close) maybe except for big trucks.
you see wolf packs form on highways when cars bunch up and theres always some a..hole hanging in the left lane.
3 lane roads(same direction) middle lane is cruising right lane is exit,entry and left lane is for passing. Now yes in high traffic situations its almost impossible to maintain these rules for sure.
But in triathlon you sort of have the same.. You can pass person in front of you using the left side of the lane. Even enough room for another rider to pass both of you.(thats about the limit most roads) Both of you should be doing that pass in 20 seconds or less so your moving.. The whole system sort of revolves if everyone is doing it right. slower bikes get pushed to the rear and gone as faster bikes come and go.. Once you get past the first 5 to 10 miles its workable. But these videos were at 35 miles look at the space behind on the rear camera video after they pass me first and second time... look how much gap in front on the front view and the hd cam video...looks like plenty of room to me all it takes is someone to make the effort like the poor guys who's up front most of the time in these videos with all the others pushing them and grouping up.. Happened to me when I passed them then couldn't stay at speed and they all passed me again it wears you out.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Very small point of order but Wildsides said exactly "No. I think I was behind this guy all day." He never said he was "right behind" as in drafting behind you, or that he saw you. In fact he was 8-20 minutes BEHIND you throughout the bike ride, exactly as he said.

Last edited by: oldandslow: Nov 11, 09 20:10
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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By the way Wildsides also says he was behind me or thought he was most of the race there are only two Ryans from naples listed in results. One was way faster than I on swim and bike so can't be him. The other was about 8 minutes back at start of bike and I was averageing 22.4 until about 28 mile into the bike when the head winds got me so if hes one of these two hes very confused
because niether were near me.
Maybe he meant behind as in 'not in front and not near.' Like if I ever run a marathon that Ryan Hall is running, I'd be behind him (by over an hour).

Thank you for taking the time to make the videos and reply to the postings. Hopefully it will help future races. ST geeks worry more about drafting on a bicycle more than we worry about debt, crimes, religion, education, you get the point... it's a big deal in our world. That last sentence was supposed to be funny, but it really sounds harsh. Screw it, I'm not changing it.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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oldandslow said was I was trying to say, but he said it better.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Very small point of order but Wildsides said exactly "No. I think I was behind this guy all day." He never said he was "right behind" as in drafting behind you, or that he saw you. In fact he was 8-20 minutes BEHIND you throughout the bike ride, exactly as he said.
I took it more that he was saying he witnessed that I staged all this at an aid station and I was out of control using the "minolta"(it was olympus) while going through the aid station and he witnessed all of this. Now if I'm wrong then my mistake. I made no assumption that he was drafting. I've not singled out any rider for drafting or blocking personally. In fact theres a few guys in there its obvious they are trying to break away but can't up front you can tell because second time around they are still up there.
I'll let those watching come to their own conclusions. Yea some of the numbers I can make out but its usually the lead bike who isn't drafting or someone way back. I did call the numbers out in the audio but decided not to leave that on the audio track but I do know some of the numbers. Not out to accuse any one person just to show what I've witnessed the last 10 years at ironman florida as the number of entries have gone from under 1800 to 2600 or so in the last 10 years.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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The other video is here same location on bike course just goes on through aid station where I pass and then get repassed by the same group. no music this time.
this is dual with front and rear view synched as close as I could manually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzghRuoUw2k

Then for fun or if you want to get sea sick heres handheld during swim and t1.
I put slow motion at 1st turn bouy as well as a freeze shot just so you can see how crowded at first turn it was. Actually I've been there when it was worse.
If you can stand the jerky video I guess without getting sick stabilization didn't work too well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rmU34gN6Hg
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