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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Not saying you'll kiss ass. I'm saying they'll use your own words to justify/give cause for why they wont ever change the race format. When someone complains, they will simply say, "Our lead official reports": drafting isnt an major issue, the majority race clean, we busted nearly 200 racers, that the officials are doing a great job.[/quote]

Drafting was a major issue in FL, and I would never report otherwise. The "majority race clean" comment was meant to indicate that there are righteous competitors out there, and not to imply that drafting is not a problem in IMFL.

Hello! Did you watch the video?:)

I'm simply stating that I will work within the system to do the best job I can do.

I get what you're saying and thanks for your comments. Without sincerely interested people - like most of those responding here - non-drafting tri will fade away. I don't want that.

JR


Jimmy, your last sentence is what I am brain storming on. I know you, and some other folks have a strong opinion on the races should be kept non drafting. But, since you are involved with a business, do you know for
a fact what the majority of your customers want? From all the races I have helped in, been an official in, RD for, etc., I only hear a very very small group of folks bitch about drafting. In TODAYS races, the vast majority are
there for the experience, for the social, for everything other than worrying about some marshall who has a chip on their shoulder about what THEY think the tri sport should be. ( Why should anyone else care if a person got a new Bike PR. They are a happy customer, and guess what, happy customers come back. When is the last time a race did not fill up?)

This is why I made the two different types of comments to you. The first is if I were the WTC Boss, as of today, I would not change a thing. Why would I. All my races fill up and that is the ONLY thing that counts for success in a business. They pay you just enough, and you do just enough, to be able to tell the few that complain that all is being done to try to enforce ALL the rules that are on the books. (Even though the rule against
non racers across the finish line was ignored for years.) Make sense?

Now, if and only if the WTC boss asks you to look at some key rule changes is where I would offer before you start messing with such a successful business model, have real data from you customers as to what would allow you to make more money and grow your business. (Which might not be the right business thing to do. Sometimes a business can get too large and lead to its down fall). Now if, and only if, you find from your customer surveys that a key change or changes need to be made, great, then this is where I would start with a clean piece of paper and put all my biases aside. You would be paid for meeting your customer needs, not what you might have done in the past
or what you think is right.

This is where I have always seen the disconnect with the bitching. Where is the data that shows the vast majority want more focus on the drafting, rather than less? Do you think the few comments on ST represent the majority of Triathletes? Do you think Triathlon would be in the Olympics today if the ITU did not have the vision to just make their races draft legal? Other than the US, from my racing in other parts of the world, they could care less about drafting concerns. They just go and kick butt on all 3 parts, and boy do they get a lot more support on their races than I have ever see in the US.

Again, great job. I am just trying to offer that I hope you are looking at any rule changes based on your customer needs, and not based on your racing ideas on what should be "right". (I have no idea the answer, I just have my opinion from helping at the quantity of races I do per year, which I assume you get the same data. Do you have any data to show your customer based number 1 issue to deal with is drafting? I sure do not hear it anywhere to that level).

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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I realize every year WTC will attempt to make things better. WTC and the officials will work on things, yet it'll be the same thing. Mass start, not enough officials, and lots of drafting. It is what it is.[/quote]
I think it's gotten better and it will get better. Time will tell.

JR


Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Jimmy. With respect to "laps of shame", I still think you need to stop them on the side of the road at the penalty tent just to "sign in" (not serve time) and then do the laps of shame at T2.

WRT to being conned into the job, I was using the wording lightly. For those who don't know, Jimmy was one of the fiercest bike studs from the late 80's and 90's. If anyone wants to make things clean, he does.

Dev
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, someone hit the nail on the head!!!

Now, if you put more officials on the bike course, you would greatly be increasing the risk of more accidents on the course, IMO.

So yep, the business model works perfectly, why change it?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Jimmy, how do you define "better"? No matter how many officials you have on the course, someone will ALWAYS be able to pull out a video if they want and show someone who was drafting.
So, how would you define perfection in a race like IMFL or clearwater such that you could tell the ST crowd that the drafting issues were "fixed"? What target are you shooting for?
Every person who ever broke the rules gets a penalty. If this is really your bosses goal, I believe you and they will be looking for work since I know I would never do a race with that type of attitude.
This is all about fun, not about life or death!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you going to call every drafting call when folks are going up a big hill at 5 MPH? There is just NO way you could ever have a totally draft free course unless no two bikes ever got close to each other
since things can happen.

So bottom line, what are your bosses telling you to do about drafting? I know that if you were my employee, either I would not be totally honest with you, or tell you what we talked about could not
be repeated since business strategies like this are not talked to with customers. I will bet you a dinner they are not telling you they want zero drafting, or they would give you a ton of money
to hire hundred and hundred of motorcycles, and marshals. Anything less would be just talk, with is cheap. Results speak the true goals.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

You bitch more about people bitching, than people bitch about drafting:)

I respect your opinion ... when I can figure out what it is.

JR

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I may have missed some of your posts (it's a long thread), but you need to acknowledge that widespread drafting is only a significant issue for a FEW of the IM and HIM races. In fact, I have only seen one or two instances have drafting of any tiype in any of the races that I have entered, and never the type of pelotons that IMF has (I generally do HIM's on the West Coast). In some races and geographical areas, a "culture of drafting" exists, and it is basically expected that it will happen. Are you suggesting that these few races should be draft-legal, or that all WTC races should be draft-legal?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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There is never going to be 100% clean racing. Thats impossible, but at the same time, it makes WTC races look less respected (atleast to me) to have the type of pelotons in IM Fl and Clearwater. I would think as an race organization, you would atleast want to break up these peloton. You wont be able to give an drafting penalty for every offense, it's just impossible.

But I think they could do a better job of breaking up the pelotons.


However, the issue I seem to have, is how it seems that WTC is basically putting their hands up as if, "What, we are trying to stop the problem". They seem to basically be saying, "You want to fix the problem, come out here, volunteer and get on the back of a moto." Why not try a wave start for a year to see what happens, why not try and stricter penalties for a year,etc. (of course they wont, because of the potential to ruin profit from racers). WTC seems to basically be saying if you want to continue to bitch about the problem, put up or shut up, as they kinda seem like they are absolutely happy with the way the race is ran now. Again, it goes back to being a business. It doesnt make business sense for WTC to do anything that costs them profit.

Have they ever tried a wave start? Have they ever tried to put in a stiffer penalty? It seems they always come back with reasons why not to change, vs actually reallying trying to make a change.


But it's all about the MONEY. It is what it is. WTC is in business to spit out a cute ironman shirt and have an announcer say your the best person in the world at the finish, etc. They are doing an absolutely fabulous job in that dept. They cont. to sell out races, and produce "ironmen". Good for them that they can do that, I just wonder when will the IM bubble burst? I guess it'll take the balloon bursting to really cause a stir and create changes. Hell, for all I know, h2o, you may be right. ST people who are bitching/concerned about the drafting may be the small minute minority. We may be overblowing things and making it too much of an issue.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 17:44
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [M~] [ In reply to ]
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I am with Dev on this. Time penalties are no penalties. Make a person run a lap and really put the hurt on them before they go out and run the marathon. THAT is a penalty.

To add to this - make them run it on the beach, in the sand. That'll give their legs something to scream about.

I like someone else's idea of pulling them off the course 20 something miles into the race. That way the won't go into the next race with fresher legs than the guys who ran the race.

Another penalty for repeat offenders would be to ban them from any IM races for one year.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Myself, I would not enter a draft legal tri. I have ridden on my road bike with inexperienced cyclist on their tri bike and it is scary! Hell even in IM's now there are a lot of people who do not know how to handle a bike.

Owner of a few Speed Concepts since 2011.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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So simple to me, but us engineers always have trouble communicating what is so clear to us to others.

Next race I see you, we can BS over a coke. (Since I do not drink)

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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I have no idea what the right answer is. This is why I asked Jimmy a simple question. What does his customers want to be done with drafting? My guess is WTC has no customer feedback that would mean anything more than opinions. But I sure would be willing to bet Jimmy a dinner that if they asked would WTC customers want the level of changes what would be needed for 100% of drafting calls anywhere on the course to be made, and they got 10,000 inputs, the majority would say what he is doing now is a fair balance since this sport is not about life or death. (I know when I worked at HP, I would always ask marketing what our customers wanted, and I always knew more than they did.)

As I posted earlier, I was shocked this year to see so many of the top men drafting in our local races. (I was helping on the bike course, so I saw 100% of the racers 1st hand) Just made me sick, but one can bitch, but there really is nothing the RD can do and be able to have the race where they have it.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Jimmy, simply questions for you. What do your bosses want you to do about drafting? If it was more calls, they would give you TONS of more money, which I know they will not do, which answers what they really want.

What surveys have you done with your customers to ask what if anything WTC should be about drafting?

With the above data, you can see if any new direction needs to be considered.

Are these not simple questions? No data, no changes for the better

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Why would WTC give them more money? Thats bad business. The only way they would give officials more money is by jacking up the price for racers.

If you asked racers:

Would you be willing to spending $300 more dollars knowing you would be racing in a race with no drafting OR you continue to pay $500 bucks but you get what you get?

I'm guessing you would actually have a slight majority, say keep it the same. Just keep it the way it is, and for officials to do the best they can. Yes I think people care about drafting, but I'm guessing they care more about their wallets more.



Again, it's all business. WTC isnt going to do something that causes them to lose profit. If they keep the same race fees, they will never ever give more money to race officials.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Again, you hit the nail on the head. I talked personally with Jimmy about drafting years ago. I heard him giving us directions on how he wanted us to official the race. I heard him talk at the
pre race meeting about how they are going to enforce the rules. I have seen far TOO many years the same comments, etc. This is why clearly at the end of day, it is not what someone says,
it is what they do, and nothing has really changed over the years, even though the SAME issues at the same races happen. They have been willing to try nothing different, really! So, what does this lead
me to believe, yep, there business model is far exceeding expectations. If you owned a business doing as well as WTC, would you listen to a few who bitch, or the money in your bank account?

And Jimmy, if you want to say I am bitching about so many bitching, fair call, I just want to show there are multiple sides to any issue.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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those compression socks that many of those cyclists (i hesitate to call them 'triathletes') are pretty gay...
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Yep, this is why I am asking Jimmy if WTC has asked customers the exact question you are asking. But, one would only start asking something like this IF the owners felt
their business was losing business. Do you see WTC losing any business over this yet?

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Personally, if I were WTC and wanted to improve the ethics of my race, I would put the money in drug testing. That is much much worse than drafting, IMO.
I would start with 100% of the folks who qualify for Kona would get a drug test at the race, AND, be put into a random drug testing during the entire year.
These are the real cheaters in our sport, IMO. But, it is only a 2 year penalty.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Here is my take: Does WTC care what the customers think by surveys/comments?

Sure, but they care a hell of alot more at how customers think with their wallet. At this point, people dont care about drafting enough to call WTC out on it by skipping this race (race is already sold out).



As far as drug testing. Will all the racers be forced to pay for that policy?

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 18:31
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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If gholmes has any more videos to post, he should consider using that cheesy "Bad boys Bad boys ... whatcha gonna do ..." music from that Fox show.

I have a buddy who got busted for drafting at IMFL and spent 4 minutes in the penalty box at T2. I was wondering, is there any way this could actually be of benefit? Could someone run the marathon more than 4 minutes faster because they got a nice 4-minute rest forced on them? I'm not a runner. Don't know.

I just did a little fast math and, if drafting helped you average only 1/2 mph faster over the 112 ... say from 22.5 mph to 23.0 mph ... that would be over 6 minutes. Serve a 4 minute penalty and get a fresher start on your run? Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
I wanted "Your cheatin Heart" by hank wiliams senior but it wasn't in the list at you tube.. You can't just post any sound track without permission I did that once and they muted the audio told me it was detected to be owned by warner records or something it was also sprach zarathustra(2001 theme) can you believe that... maybe because I got mp3 off net should have taken it off an old lp
from the soundtrack I have. So I just searched for the word cheat found bunch of songs in their list and found that one. "Cheat the Devil" by the young werewolfs(which I didn't have a clue who they were).
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [jroden] [ In reply to ]
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Why aren't we pointing out how dangerous Gary Holmes is for riding into an aid station with his fucking "Minolta" camera out in one hand? You see the porta pottys on the right at the end. What is his motivation?

There is clearly an Aid Station that's out of focus for this camera but would have been seen by the riders well in advance of the video starting, you can see the car parked across the road from it even with this short focal range. Of course people are sitting up to throw trash (as was threatened with DQ if not in the exact area of the station), going left to skip it or slowing to grab bottles. Both videos this guy posted are of aid stations early in the race.

Yes, there was drafting! There were also lots of officials on the course. There was also blocking and outside assistance and tons of pissing on the course even though they begged us not to. GHolmes needs to stop posting video about how people bunch up at early aid stations so he can look cool in front of his friends and call it drafting. This video is not relevant.

Flame away.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [WildSide] [ In reply to ]
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We need the "this video doesnt really show what happened" crowd to show up and atleast keep it interesting. Thanks for posting.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 19:12
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Wildside, are you in the video by any chance?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

You bitch more about people bitching, than people bitch about drafting:)

I respect your opinion ... when I can figure out what it is.

JR

Exceptional Jimmy!!!! Now you know why most ignore good ole Dave....
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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I see now that Chris L. has posted the video as well, and the comments are similar to here...outrageous!! is the usual comment. Well done, gholmes....it's gaining steam....
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