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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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It seems like you have spent a lot of energy and expense filming the cheating. I am unclear why you entered IM Florida, especially for the 10th time. It doesn't seem like you had any fun at all, and you clearly anticipated the drafting since you came prepared with a camera to film it. I am not saying that your anger is not justified or that the cheating is justified. I am just saying maybe you should find some events in which to participate that you can actually enjoy. I have a suggestion -- try Xterra. Jump on your mountain bike and avoid the peloton all together. The events are well-run, intensely competitive, physically challenging and one big party! Why waste your energy being angry at something that you can't control and that you know likely won't change?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Mom2Sean] [ In reply to ]
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Now, you have one great solution for the few folks who will never be happy with Triathlons anymore. They are a business. They are for the masses. 1980 is gone.
But, what fun would life be if one did not have something to complain about? :o)

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Why a minute apart? Why not 10 seconds and smaller groups?

2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Mom2Sean] [ In reply to ]
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The events are well-run, intensely competitive, physically challenging and one big party! Why waste your energy being angry at something that you can't control and that you know likely won't change?


I'd be inclined to agree with you except where Kona slots are concerned. I'd hate to think that somebody took a free ride in the jump seat for 112 and rode all the way to Kona. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that these sort of packs were there to help the top overall finishers.

Also, I didn't sense any "anger" from the OP. I thought he was just reporting.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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I'm just applying a little bit of logic. I don't think it's a big stretch to say that the original poster was motivated by anger over the drafting he has seen. As I said, I don't disagree with him that it exists or that he is entitled to be frustrated or angered over it. My only point is that there are other events out there where this is not an issue, and the original poster might be pleasantly surprised at how he feels about spending his money on race entry fees to participate in those races and enjoy them. If you are making an entire event about catching cheaters on film, my personal opinion is that you have missed what I would submit is at least an important part of participating in an amateur race -- having fun!!!
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Here is another view.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

Absolutely no excuse for some of those people!
I would love to run one of those cameras, anybody know what is being used?

Owner of a few Speed Concepts since 2011.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder if someday these folks will come to realize they are just cheating themselves? Is the whole concept of the IM with a 112 ITT lost of them? I would feel I didn't get the "real" experience of an IM if I did this. I really don't understand this. I did the Vineman IM this summer...less than a 1000 entrants and you couldn't really draft if you wanted to. Finishing with honesty and integrity to the sport means more than saving a few minutes but I guess I am just old fashion (or maybe just old).
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
So the nex question is this: Do people want to pay $777 to race and be potentially draft legal, or pay $500 and race with it as is. From all accounts, people are upset that races are $500 now, I'm not sure how people would feel if it went to $777.
Maybe you blinked, but the fact that IM FL 2010 sold out in a day at over $500 might make you want to reconsider your statement above.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, people sign up for it, but will having the race be priced at $700+ make it appeal to the masses still? Thats the question that WTC has to ask itself. Obviously right now they have it set up perfectly to make alot of money. As a business it really doesnt make much sense for WTC to more or less take a chance at changing, just so people can feel like the IM race is "legit". $500 dollars is still viable for the masses, but at what point is it not viable? That's the point I'm making. Is it 200 extra dollars, 500 extra dollars, or only when a race costs $2k to race to become an IM will people not show up. I'm just not sure WTC wants to take that chance, especially with the cash cow they have now.

Dev's proposition to cut the course down to 1800 people, will have a direct impact on Participants, not WTC. So yes, at $500 at this point it sells out in minutes. I just dont think WTC wants to take teh business chance of potentially losing profit just so they can have a "non draft" race.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 10:46
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Surely you're not suggesting it would cost $400,000 to fix the drafting issue?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Good stuff.

Maybe I missed this already explored in the thread, but is there a reason race marshals can't employ this technology more and then apply penalties retroactively (like the doping passport in cycling)? Just that risk alone would scare the bejeezus out of anyone drafting with intent or intentionally not correcting a clear violation. This doesn't mean the course and wave format don't have something to do with this too.

Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]
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How many competitors are on the course now? (I'm not sure the exact number, anyone know exactly)

2800 x $500 = $1.4 million WTC gets from competitors.

2500 x $500= $1.25 million WTC if it has 2500 competitors.



Dev's Solution: Cut races down to 1800 people

1800 x $500= $900,000 WTC would make if Dev's plan of 1800 competitors at the same cost as the race is now. Thats a net lose of 1/2 million dollars if they have 2800 competitors currently now.





Edit: I'm not trying to say that drafting wont get changed, nor am I trying to say Dev's solutions wont work. I just dont have my head in the sand to think that WTC will simply change the drafting issues without making the competitors pay for it. You want to have a race that is draft free, your going to have to pay for it, basically.


So at this point, if you want 1800 people on the course, for WTC to make the same profit as it does right now (assuming htey have 2800 sign up for the race); it's going to cost a racer $777 dollars.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 11:09
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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I hear Ironman Florida is being renamed Cheatman Florida.

It's great to have proof, can we list all the names(Dan?)

It's too late to do anything about it now, it's a virus.
Over the past few years, many people(obviously) have entered the sport feeling drafting is acceptable as long as they try not to ....... just a little. A token resistance is all that is required.
It doesn't really matter any more, with the continued cheapening of the brand, IM is slowly sinking into the gutter. I feel sorry for the first timers/ life ambitioners. IM jumped the shark long ago.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Mom2Sean] [ In reply to ]
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Your logic is pretty weak. Gholmes never said he was "making an entire event about catching cheaters on film" or that he did not have fun. Sometimes these events aren't very fun at all when one has to go out there and smash themselves to earn a Kona slot. Whether he was angry at the drafting is somewhat irrelevant. I appluad him for showing some initiative to highlight the problem instead of slinky away from it.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Good job.

What I couldn't see were numbers, because we need to start posting names.

Then, when these individuals are googled in the future, they will be identified as 'cheaters.'
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [DavidC] [ In reply to ]
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I'm actually in that footage - I'm the bike which you see almost immediately (Black Orbea with Reynolds disc in). I'd just worked my balls off to get past that enormous pelaton. I had to go on the wrong side of the road to do so at times. Having just got past them and finally at the front (with 3 guys hanging onto me as you see in the footage) a fricken aid station turns up!

Slowing down to re-stock I had all the damn work to do again! I passed 3 pelatons as large as this one.

What I'm pissed off about - is I'm in the footage, and I'm now tarred with the brush of being in a pelaton (alhtough you can clearly see me riding away from them). And the original poster talks about how 'they' came back past him after the aid station - so am I part of the 'they'?

I didn't draft, and can hold my head high - but I also did not ask to be filmed - I don't remember this guy coming up to me pre-race and asking if he could film me being drafted by 30 riders which he was then going to post on slowtwitch and youtube.

I flew all the way from the UK for this race, and whilst the drafting was shocking to me - the draft marshals did nothing and simply turned a blind eye. However - if I'd done the race 10 years in a row I would assume to know what to expect.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [dgunthert] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Surely you're not suggesting it would cost $400,000 to fix the drafting issue?

Yes. Look at my figures. WTC is a business. They arent goign to simply lower the participant list, and keep the same price. They may have to eventually, if the IM balloon finally pops. But at this point, WTC can chug along with making a good amount of money. They know what they have. WTC doenst know what it has, if they have to drop the particiaptn list, and in the process raising the price by 50%, to keep the same profit. At this point, the potential lost profit is too great for WTC to attempt to try and do anything to change the draftfest as it is now. Look at the race now, people acknowledge what it is, and it still sells out in 1 day. They have a goood thing right now, and they see no need to change it, because what is the alternative? Potential loss of profit? Basically WTC would be taking a chance, and as I see it now, it wouldnt make much sense to take a chance, when right now, their race is selling out each and every year.

So it basically comes down to this: How much are people willing to pay to race in a non draft race. Are you willing to pay $750+ to race IM Fl knowing you wont be in a draftfest? If so, than round up a petition of 1800, with everyone's CC numbers, and go to WTC. If not, than it's going to be hard to get WTC to change the format.


It's easy to come up with "solutions", but when you really delv into the solutions, there are consequences, that people seem to forget or dont mention. So when a solution is brought up, just make sure it's looked at from 360 degrees, so that the best and most feasible solution can be implemented.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 11:28
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Drafting is a penalty, yes. But I liken it more to hockey: falling over a stick does not a tripping penalty make. It is your responsibility to make every effort to avoid drafting, to not be caught in a drafting situation. I never said that we shouldn't have more marshals, nor that drafting shouldn't be a penalty, just that there needs to be room for interpretation - which, IMO, is what does happen, WHEN marshals spot drafting. Not everyone caught in a pack is happy about being there, or trying to draft, regardless of whether or not they get some advantage from it...

Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

Same goes for drafting. Period.

What races do you marshall, I don't want to race there. You obviously don't give racers a level playing field.
Last edited by: NateC: Nov 10, 09 12:02
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [BLACKSHEEP] [ In reply to ]
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If gholmes has any more videos to post, he should consider using that cheesy "Bad boys Bad boys ... whatcha gonna do ..." music from that Fox show.

I have a buddy who got busted for drafting at IMFL and spent 4 minutes in the penalty box at T2. I was wondering, is there any way this could actually be of benefit? Could someone run the marathon more than 4 minutes faster because they got a nice 4-minute rest forced on them? I'm not a runner. Don't know.

I just did a little fast math and, if drafting helped you average only 1/2 mph faster over the 112 ... say from 22.5 mph to 23.0 mph ... that would be over 6 minutes. Serve a 4 minute penalty and get a fresher start on your run? Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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Thats the whole point, and exactly why people draft. The benefit of drafting is greater than the penalty.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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"that is unbelievable...I bet there won't be drafting next year."

How old are you? Four?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Stop fixating on the "1800" people solution, that's just one idea. Wave or time trial starts would not be very expensive to implement (at all), and would spread out the pack of potential drafters a great deal. Here is IMFL today: A flat course, ~2500 competitors, a mass start, ineffective enforcement, incentives to cheat (Kona slots, AG wins, PB's), and a history/mindset that drafting is acceptable. Of all of these factors, the easiest one to change is the mass start (Person with the brain of pull buoy could figure that out...). Then, work on the other factors (threaten to pull Kona slots, incorporate video enforcement, reduce the number of participants, etc.). Will anything be done? Time will tell....
Last edited by: oldandslow: Nov 10, 09 11:45
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome video.

I have a question. I've never done an on-road tri so please be patient with me.

Do you really think the persons in that video believed they were drafting/cheating or do you think they believed they were victims of a crowded course? I'm watching this video and playing through my mind how I would remove myself from illegal positions. It looks like a lose-lose situation for all. By looking at the math you can legally fit ~160 bikes per mile. Let's assume there are 300/mile in that video. Once you're engulfed, I don't see how it is possible to stay legal without giving up your race pace.

I like the penalty lap idea - much better than letting folks rest/stretch/hydrate in a shaded tent. Now I just need to figure out how to not get carded.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [paul_tx] [ In reply to ]
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The only change to come next year is the Athlete's Guide will be updated to add no video recording devices allowed. There - problem solved: no video, didn't happen.

Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. So lets throw out the "1800" participants, lets throw out the extra enforcement, lets throw out the extra "quiet" scooters.



It sounds like best viable option is the wave start. What is the feel for why WTC seems to be against wave starts? Is it just basically the "12 midnight" 17 hr time cutoff?

Are any IM's start with wave starts? I think IM Lville is the only TT start, correct?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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