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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Can you give us a little detail of your camera setup? What cameras you used? How you mounted them? What software you used to sync them?

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.
He also crosses the yellow line at 1:15. Not that I care.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.

He didn't cause that peloton that passed him at 2:40-3:10.
Last edited by: hgrong: Nov 10, 09 6:21
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Change will likely only come if the Ironman Corp. or the governing body enforces the rules or yanks the race (as we know it).

I know when I want my voice heard, I write letters.....

How many letters would stir up change??
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Confirms why i'll never do IMFla or Draftwater unless some major changes are made. Pathetic.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you. Epic!


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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [LoriT] [ In reply to ]
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Great video, and it really represents what the bike course was like. The drafting occured all day - not just on Hwy 20. I saw it on 231 and on 388 also. Surprisingly, I saw 3 or 4 different people get red carded on the 20. I also hear another racing complaining that she got carded on 2301.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to a matter of choice. You (and only you) make a decision to ride a clean race or to cheat. The concept isn't difficult to grasp. I don't believe the crap that "it was just too hard to not draft". I was extremely careful on the entire ride, and didn't draft. Perhaps my bike split wasn't as good as it could have been, but so what. I went to bed knowing that I finished the IM and didn't cheat.

Joel | My Blog | Team Rev3 Tri | Twitter @TriMadness
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tetsuoni] [ In reply to ]
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For example at Clearwater or Florida if they did a TT start with groups of 15 starting 15 people WIDE every minute you get 900 people off in an hour, but more importantly you eliminate the big chunks of people when you start large groups together in the swim. That's 1800 people in 2 hours. Cap the field at that. Not hard to do with today's timing technology.

Then instead of time penalties, let's have:
  • first penalty: MILE OF SHAME on a 200m loop outside T2 for everyone to see (8 laps)
  • second penalty: 3 ADDITIONAL MILES OF SHAME (so now the guy is doing 32 laps till his head spins and since there is a timing matt entering and leaving, you don't get to leave until you cross the exit mat and it says you did 32 laps).

Its not just the penalty and shredding the legs with extra running. It's the public humiliation in front of friends and family.

Tetsuoni, I agree with not sacrificing yourself to be taken advantage of. But maybe we can all do something here, and start something on ST to lobby USAT, WTC and RD's. If they can do TT start in Louisville, then what's the problem elsewhere.

Dev
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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they already do that at some of the Europe 70.3s.

In Antwerp 70.3 this year they had run penalty loops ~450m or so over very chunky, uneven cobblestones.

1 loop per offense. they also had about 14 motos with refs for a 90km course, part of which is 2 loops. I never went more then 5 min without seeing a ref.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Joel0135] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with you 100% Joel, it's an individual decision and you have to live with it. Why do Ironman if you cheat? There aren't more motors because the organizer is too cheap.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.

I knew someone would say that first the yellow line...We are talking about drafting and getting an advantage I never said I was perfect. It was to avoid all the bikes coming into that aid station they were wide(see the newer video with front and rear views in same clip).
YEs I admit it I crossed the yellow line yes. Its like the double yellow line for automobiles.. Your not supposed to pass with a double yellow line. BUT what are you going to do if say a car stops
dead in front of you or a tree is on the road. Are you going to wait until the car moves to pass or someone removes the tree.. NO your going to look see if there is any on coming traffic(this isn' a hill) and if safe make your pass.

As for the setting up after a pass.. This is why those of us who make every effort not to draft are really pissed off. We work very hard(which you don't see the folks in the pack who claim they got
caught up in do) to make the pass legallly.. I push through the packs when they slow down. Well after 10 bikes or so and actually getting some wind protection from the pack as your passing
you get to the front and they speed up to stay with you or you keep pushing. But eventually I can't stay up in front. This can happen over and over again.
FInally you just get frustrated. I see them in my mirror gaining and pretty much decide its not worth the effort to keep pushing...
First time I passed the group they all slowed down at aid station and in the crowd. I kept going following the rules passing at a fast clip well less than 20 seconds.
Each time I'd pass a couple I ended up in someone elses draft zone. Toward the end if you watch I shifted gears because I wasn't gaining on the next bike but was in the draft zone so I did
what I was supposed to do finish the pass but by then the group started picking up steam after the slow down so it was matter of time. I may have sat up but I was going roughly the same speed.
I was hopeing to get my gps track info overlayed but since my video was not continous due to a reboot earlier its going to be difficult(the bike mounted cameras ran continous)
But it would show the speeds.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [chrisjones] [ In reply to ]
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He also crosses the yellow line at 1:15. Not that I care.

I saw that too . . . what a cheater. lol
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [djciii] [ In reply to ]
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During the first few seconds of the clip I thought you were the biggest winer ever...and then it started...that is unbelievable...I bet there won't be drafting next year.
More likely they won't allow cameras next year.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [ In reply to ]
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Only 3...you should look at the video again. I only saw three that were not drafting. If they were 3 bike lengths apart per the rules that would have been a 10 minute video :)

Cheers...

Rich
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.
No, he finishes making the pass, then he is clearly going to be overtaken. Once he is overtaken, he can either stay in the bars (not safe in a pack), or he can put his hands on the hoods. He chose the latter (safer) option. I wish we could see bib numbers, so we could post names and make this thread even more fun.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [ In reply to ]
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Is that club from Maryland?
Racers on the team are from VA, DC, MD, and PA. Its not so much a club as an elite am team.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Why are they going to lower capacity?

If that's the case, WTC will simply raise the costs to the 1800 person capacity to offset the lose of income by lowering the capacity.

So the nex question is this: Do people want to pay $777 to race and be potentially draft legal, or pay $500 and race with it as is. From all accounts, people are upset that races are $500 now, I'm not sure how people would feel if it went to $777. $300 bucks isnt really all that much in terms of dollars, but when you put it into context, it's basically 50% added cost to the avg. cost now.

If you really want to make a change, you have to present a case to WTC, that will create a cleanier race, all the while keeping the gravy train for WTC's pockets. They aren't going to want to implement a plan that causes them to lose money. It's a BUSINESS, and it's all about the money. It's not about allowing people to race to see what how far they can push themselvs. If that were the case, simply go out on a Sat. and do 140.6 race by yourself.


This arguement kinda reminds me of the Playoff debate in college football. Everyone says that college football needs a playoff, so that it's fair for most teams and a true champion on the field is crowned. However, they forget about the finances of the decisions. Why the heck do you think the BCS was created by only 6 conferences in the 1st place. It's all about money, and university prez's arent going to drop that system simply for a system of unkown financically. So hence, why there is no easy answer to the college football playoff system. Yes, it makes sense to have a college playoff system, but it's all about the MONEY. Show the colleges how they can make more money, and a playoff will be implemented. Until than, it's just a pipe dream.

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http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 10, 09 8:30
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [LoriT] [ In reply to ]
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<<
LoriT sez: Change will likely only come if the Ironman Corp. or the governing body enforces the rules or yanks the race (as we know it).

I know when I want my voice heard, I write letters.....

How many letters would stir up change??

>>
sometimes Jim Riccitello the wtc head referee is on this board. Jim, this is a disgrace. please explain how it happens on your watch. please also explain why the rules variations for wtc events ask for a lesser time penalty for drafting? usat rules say 6 mins for first offense and 12 minutes for second offense. wtc is less. why?

as long as races fill up there won't be any change. what happens when the equity group sells it in a few years, any ideas?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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For the record, I didn't say anything about the yellow line (the aid station volunteers seemed so determined to get me to take a bottle at one point on the B2B course that I had to go across the yellow line to get away from them ... and there weren't any other bikes around. I think they were bored to death and wanted the thrill of handing me a bottle). But if I were the guy in the green and you did to me what I saw (or thought I saw) on that video, I'd be a little pissed off.

Regardless, those ARE awesome videos and damning evidence, both. Very cool. Very selfless of you to do that. I'm sure you could have had a much faster race if you weren't doing that (and carrying that extra gear).

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting...how can this race call itself a legit m-dot race??
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
For the record, I didn't say anything about the yellow line (the aid station volunteers seemed so determined to get me to take a bottle at one point on the B2B course that I had to go across the yellow line to get away from them ... and there weren't any other bikes around. I think they were bored to death and wanted the thrill of handing me a bottle). But if I were the guy in the green and you did to me what I saw (or thought I saw) on that video, I'd be a little pissed off.

Regardless, those ARE awesome videos and damning evidence, both. Very cool. Very selfless of you to do that. I'm sure you could have had a much faster race if you weren't doing that (and carrying that extra gear).
Yep some of the aid stations the volunteers(which did an awesome job) were a bit far into the road especially when the big packs rolled through it was scarey.

didn't slow me down much I've been practicing last couple years used them in louisville(except the helmet cam) I went out too fast(you'd think after 29 ironman races I'd learn)
first 25 miles on bike then the head wind.
What you see is what the packs do I have to wait for them to all go by anyway and not get drawn into the group(which alot of folks use as an excuse) So I moved as far to right as I could
waited for them to go if they didn't keep going I'd have to pass them and on and on it would go except this time the head wind made it tough to keep passing them.
the cameras might have had a small aero disadvantage but Heck I wasn't concerned with that.. Yes I was 17 minutes slower than last years bike but the conditions had lot to do with that
plus lack of training post louisville with all the bad weather we had in those weeks.
I'm getting a new 1080p version of the cameras next with remote control and extra battery power.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Maniacal] [ In reply to ]
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Only 3...you should look at the video again. I only saw three that were not drafting. If they were 3 bike lengths apart per the rules that would have been a 10 minute video :)

I haven't yet watched the other videos (rear view, etc.) but I was talking about blatant and intentional drafting violations - not drafting, per se. I'm not oblivious to the difference, believe me, but I maintain my opinion that someone sitting up and not pedaling *may* not be intentionally drafting. People like to beleive that it is possible to maintain the 3 bike length rule in all cases, etc. but in reality it is not. People that are in the bars, clearly making use of a draft for their own advantage are guilty. People in a pack due to many of the common complaints (too many riders, narrow roads, turns, aid stations, etc.) *may* not be guilty. Or they *may* be. Not my call...
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Maniacal] [ In reply to ]
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Why the F do we need more motorbikes? Just setup teams of spotters on the course. As a draft group passes start calling out the numbers over a 2 way, a mile down the road have more spotters who then check the group again to see who is still drafting and they all get screwed. This could all be done multiple times over the bike course with volunteers and would cost practically nothing. I will be the first to volunteer next year to sit on the bike course and call out numbers.
Geez: A couple of minutes for drafting is an absolute joke in a IM. Hummm Draft the ride and risk losing a few minutes while gaining 30 minutes on the run…….. I say if you get caught no KQ and a minimum of 10 minutes, 2nd time 20 more minutes, 3rd time DQ. Who needs the penalty tents, just let them keep riding collecting infringements until they are DQ’ed then pull them off the run.

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Ryoz] [ In reply to ]
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. Who needs the penalty tents, just let them keep riding collecting infringements until they are DQ’ed then pull them off the run.
AGREED! But you need to be a true BASTARD about it and pull them off at mile 24 of the run!

That will teach the F**kers

Cheers...

Rich
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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did anybody notice the UFO?

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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