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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Until people just stop doing this race, will WTC take notice and attempt to change or figure out how to get racers back to the race. The next alternative is to tell WTC you will pay them $1k to race your race with officials on super quiet motobikes, camera speed sensors, etc.

You're not getting the fact that that ain't going to happen until many of us are dead. Florida in November is just too damn appealing. The walk away is having no effect at this point. Raise prices as you suggest, and you really drive them away.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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But what I'm saying is, your solution suggest that WTC will simply implement this policy because they make so much money anyway; wont happen. I'm saying, that's not going to happen. WTC makes all that money now, it's not going to do something to lose it's profit margin's, and certainly not raise the cost of the race without raising the Race Fees on the participants.

Dev's solutions are great: But your missing one point to his solutions. Racers will have to pay for those solutions to be implemented. WTC isnt going to pay for all of that, and not raise race fees. That's just bad business.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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I realize it'll mostly change when people simply stop showing up to race, but without that happening you think any of your solutions could ever be implemented? Or are we just dreaming out loud?

Personal boycotts are meaningless, especially for popular races. You need to understand, that the most important asset of WTC is the brand name "Ironman" (that and compression socks). This video attacks the integrity of the Ironman brand, making a dirty little family secret visible to anyone with an interest in triathlon. Ironman(tm) is supposed to conjure up images of endurance/perserverence/drive/etc., not an endless parade of blantant cheaters. Bravo, keep the videos coming!
Last edited by: oldandslow: Nov 9, 09 20:54
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Great White North has had penalty run lap for drafting for a few years (at least since 2004).

First offence 1600m lap, second offence DQ.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Hasnt that dirty little secret been know for years about IM FL? I realize it'll create some bad publicity, but again, if you want them to implement Dev's solution: Get ready to pay for it.

People already bitch about paying $500+ for an Ironman race. Can you imagine what they will do if the race fee is $800-$1k+? Thats why I dont see it happening. ImFl is what it is. It's a draftfest. You go race there and do what OP has done and race yourself, or you choose to get in the packs and race that way.

People want to implement an great ideas, but I'm also wondering who is going to pay for that? Obviously WTC is going to jack up the price for the race if we have quiet scooters and speeding camera's, etc.


The solution that I think would be the most applicable and create the greatest deterent to drafting would be an 1 mile penalty run, etc. 5k for 2nd offense. People simply couldnt afford to draft at that point. I'm sure there will be the occassional accidental brake check draft, but I'm guessing these "pelotons", will be broken up tremendously by that type of penalty.

The penalty system now that is in place, simply is not enough to deter people from drafting. Cause someone to do extra work, and sit for 30 mins and people will really think twice about drafting.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 9, 09 20:54
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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Hasnt that dirty little secret been know for years about IM FL? I realize it'll create some bad publicity, but again, if you want them to implement Dev's solution: Get ready to pay for it.
No, Slowtwitch is smaller than you thinkk, even in the triathlete community. More importantly, the weekend jogger doesn't know, but still buys IM(tm) glasses, purely due to brand marketing. As far as Dev's ideas, wave starts or time trial starts would greatly alleviate part of the problem: too many athletes too close together..
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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So with wave starts: Will that increase costs, for medical personal, lifeguards, police, road closures? I'm guessing some people volunteer, but I've heard like police usually have an crazy salary/hr rate.

How do you have an time trial start on basically an open beach? Wouldnt say people just basically still start in bunches? Unless you basically push people through a starting gate. But at IM FL, isn't the start basically wide open (or atlest 20 yards wide). Time Trial start basically only works when you have a small start area, not an open area.


I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to figure out the costs of each of these ideas. Because you can bet your ass that WTC isn't simply going to pay for the extra costs. So is the added costs, worth it? At what cost, are we going to have to pay to race a draft free race?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: bad929: Nov 9, 09 21:08
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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BTW, Matty Reed just tweeted your video:

boomboomreed to me this is cheating at its best.... wow. what a bummer to watch. imf2009bikeone.mov http://bit.ly/1rFswD
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [sailnfast] [ In reply to ]
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ST better come up with a community fund to protect gholmes, from the money hungry WTC organization pretty soon! :)

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [ In reply to ]
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ST better come up with a community fund to protect gholmes, from the money hungry WTC organization pretty soon! :)

I think gholmes will be fine. I'm hoping his video and the play it's getting will cause WTC to take a serious look at how out of hand drafting has become at some of its races and actually investigate ways to reduce it. But I'm known to be optimistic ;)
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [ In reply to ]
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Better yet. Enter the race, videotape the drafting. Ask for a refund.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Funny I was just thinking today on my run that a helmet camera would have been awesome on the bike at Ironman Hawaii this year. I can say with certainty that Kona was a draft fest this year for the AGrs. Packs formed just like this. I saw ONE marshall all the way out to Hawi, about a dozen times. At one point a huge pack (peloton) was sitting up the road, the motorbike/marshal pulled up next to the pack & nobody broke it up. They all sat there shoulder to shoulder & wheel on wheel. 2 to 3 minutes go by...then the marshal drives off without flashing a card or writing down a number. Methinks WTC may put marshals out there for looks once in a while & write up a few penalties just to make it look good. But the opportunity existed for that one instance alone to write down anywhere from 15 to 20 numbers & then flash them a naughty card. WTC has made more IM races, let in more athletes (making it a safety hazard in many races), diluted the Kona slots (okay, this is unrelated to my point), increased fees (I paid about $175 for my first Kona). It really is becoming quite a circus event (WTC races). Now would be a great time for NORIMAN events. Yep, Iron (reversed)-man. Which means, some great group of race directors come & and correct a lot of the issues WTC has in their races (such as field limit sizes across all races NEVER to increase--unrealistic once they see the $$ coming in or increase in costs of putting on the race). If so many want to experience Kona, I wonder if Kona would allow a similar race on the same course? Unless WTC has the public roads TM'd for their use only. Just a few "ranting thoughts". Let the roasting begin...
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Why not just have IMFL be a draft bike course? I mean what's the point...it would require ya swim your ass off to get out first with the lead packs and make the marathon quite interesting. Just put asterisks by new course records. Would it be too dangerous? Well if everyone knew in advance that it would be a drafting course, squeamish folks wouldn't apply. So you'd have a 2.4 swim, road race and marathon..that way everyone is on a level playing field unless you bring fins. ;)
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Time trial starts.

2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ericM35-39] [ In reply to ]
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Not my call. It would serve the anti-drafting movement well for WTC to make a matyr of him. Whistleblowers that receive retaliation make great press.

2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Time trial starts. With massive fields like IM Fla start in groups of 5 or 10 mixed racers of varied ages and sexes. It's easy to do with the state of the art of chip timing. More cameras. Laps of shame for penalties. However, until these changes are instituted, I'll not return. Life's short. I'm not going to be a martyr to the anti-drafting cause allowing myself to be taken advantage of by cheaters on principle when it costs a couple of thousand to race one of these "events" between entry fee, airfare, hotel, rental car, meals, etc.... I'm not going to piss away an A race in my prime by entering one where I know I'm going to be taken advantage of. I'll support local, grassroot events and live hassle free and happy. I'm selfish that way. I don't like crack dealers and their clients either, but I'm not going to aggravate myself and waste my time trying to stop what they're doing. If the police, or WTC, don't enforce the rules, then those that participate will live self-deluded, meaningless lives.

2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Kevin K] [ In reply to ]
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Funny I was just thinking today on my run that a helmet camera would have been awesome on the bike at Ironman Hawaii this year. I can say with certainty that Kona was a draft fest this year for the AGrs. Packs formed just like this. I saw ONE marshall all the way out to Hawi, about a dozen times. At one point a huge pack (peloton) was sitting up the road, the motorbike/marshal pulled up next to the pack & nobody broke it up. They all sat there shoulder to shoulder & wheel on wheel. 2 to 3 minutes go by...then the marshal drives off without flashing a card or writing down a number. Methinks WTC may put marshals out there for looks once in a while & write up a few penalties just to make it look good. But the opportunity existed for that one instance alone to write down anywhere from 15 to 20 numbers & then flash them a naughty card. WTC has made more IM races, let in more athletes (making it a safety hazard in many races), diluted the Kona slots (okay, this is unrelated to my point), increased fees (I paid about $175 for my first Kona). It really is becoming quite a circus event (WTC races). Now would be a great time for NORIMAN events. Yep, Iron (reversed)-man. Which means, some great group of race directors come & and correct a lot of the issues WTC has in their races (such as field limit sizes across all races NEVER to increase--unrealistic once they see the $$ coming in or increase in costs of putting on the race). If so many want to experience Kona, I wonder if Kona would allow a similar race on the same course? Unless WTC has the public roads TM'd for their use only. Just a few "ranting thoughts". Let the roasting begin...
Now there's a thinker. Love your work.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [masterslacker] [ In reply to ]
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I thought IMFL was a draft legal race based on the video.

Dave

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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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That one is cool where you see the flow of the race for a bit as well as a lot of open road to ride legal.

The draft looked good as you could tell some decent soft pedaling going on...
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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That's incredible.

Begin watching the rear camera at 2:40 and watch that pack pass. Just another group ride.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [ In reply to ]
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that's crazy - most of them are coasting............It truly is about a 30% difference effort wise if you are drafting.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tom1376] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder if any of the draft crew from IMFL gets on this site and has taken a gander at this video? I realize there is only so much they can do, but at the very least it would confirm for them if they want a draft free race either the field needs to come down in size or the marshalls need to grow their force.....or both.

It's obvious the honor code among athletes doesn't exist.....I have never seen such blatant drafting in my life.
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tom1376] [ In reply to ]
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At what speeds what everyone say most of the drafting is done? 20 - 23mph or is it all across the board?
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Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.
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