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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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But now you think it's OK to demand that every Kona qualifier be available for out-of-competition drug testing to make you feel better about spending all that money on your silly hobby.

Yes, if you are willing to spend 10 to 20 hours per week for years to try to qualify for Kona, along with the $$ you are spending on the quest, you can submit to OCC drug testing. Do you think anyone is going to feel sorry for you? ;)

BTW, I'm done trying to qualify for Kona.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me. I want him to stay out of my...well... urine (I'll bet he wants that too!)

I certainly feel sorry for the folks who try very hard and don't make it. But the guy who feels entitled to urine/blood samples from age groupers as a result of all that? Him I feel most sorry for. That poor soul has completely lost perspective.

You know the joke about figuring out which guy at the party is the triathlete? It's the same guy.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [AZRob] [ In reply to ]
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You state it as an either/or proposition. However, there is a third option. I can exercise my rights to open my mouth and talk to someone at WTC or make a big fuss on forum message boards. I know you would prefer that I not exercise that right, because your position is so entrenched. Based on previous comments, you didn't seem to mind giving away rights by being in the military, keeping in mind that all civilians have more rights than the highest military ranking short of commander in chief. I really don't find it a moving argument that you don't consider certain things to be an invasion of your privacy, and therefore I should not consider those things to be an invasion of my privacy either, and I should either accept your viewpoint or not race. I will make my own decisions in that regard, and I will "reserve my rights", no matter how many of yours you choose to give away.

Maybe it is due to the military stuff, but I really don't see it as any big deal at all, and I find it kind of amusing that people get all het up over it. As far as "preferring", I really don't care one way or the other on that either. As you can tell, I have no problem opening my mouth :D, so I don't really care when others do either. Test, don't test, I'll race anyway.

My biggest problem with the whole doping thing is I really want to believe in the integrity of sport. (not just ours, sport as a whole). I'm also of the opinion that allowing professionals in ruined a large part of the Olympics. Drugging to win at sports i

Here are my changes I referred to when I voted "yes, with changes":

1. Age groupers should be eligible for money prizes.
2. If you check the box saying you wish to compete for a money prize, you may be subject to being entered into both in and out of competition testing pools.

If there's no money involved, then if you don't podium you can just accept the fact that you're not training or doping hard enough in your "local yokel" race or your international yokel IM. No TUE required.

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I know you've put your coaching shingle out so you're treating the sport seriously, but it's not serious at all for the athlete except all those hours training and then a race to see how he can execute the training in a timed race. If you're going wild over a plaque or a medal that you or your clients miss out on, you're missing the mark. There's no professional conduct policy for coaches, no certification board unless you count a few classes that USAT puts on, no organized business bureau to complain about bad coaches, and not much more than lunch money to be earned unless you're Joe Friel.

For the age group athletes, there's nothing to be gained except the satisfaction of a race well done, a token prize at the finish line, and maybe a chance to pay another $550 to go to Kona, where they still won't be competing for money. Then they get up again in 1 or 2 mornings after their small or big race and continue their day job. You do the same thing. So it's not serious at all. Why the need to make a big deal with drug testing? Is it so I can pay extra in my race fees for something I don't care about but you do? Maybe you should pay the testing fees for all athletes if you care so much.
See my above regarding integrity in sport. Maybe it's the pipe dream to end all pipe dreams, but we all have them. :D

And I like your changes as well, but I don't think it would change things in the AG ranks. Those that would dope for a meaningless medal would still do so.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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JoeO,

When has Ironman ever been "in perspective?"
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! Checkmate on me
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The ONLY testing for AGers should be for Kona/Clearwater qualifiers and that should be done immediately after the race or upon accepting the slot the following day. That is it. No OOC testing. We are amateurs, we are competing for nothing more than pride or bragging rights. I still believe there is no real reason to test AGers whatsoever. Waste of time and money.

Seriously what does the sport gain in testing amateurs? Other ways to improve the sport and make it more enjoyable.

So to summarize what is already short:
  1. NO OOC testing
  2. Test immediately after acceptance of slot.


-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [aarondavidson] [ In reply to ]
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  1. NO OOC testing
  2. Test immediately after acceptance of slot.
Please don't let the peepee police show up at my real job.

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Just having folks talk about this the way some are might start to solve some of the issue. But, I have to agree with the comments about when to test.
If it were me, I would start with 100% of the Kona only qualifiers. Then, 100% of the Kona Podium winners. Biggest bang for the buck. And these folks would also be the ones put into a pool of
possible random testing. Then see what happens. If folks start to drop out, or testing finds issues, then decide what the next steps are. But, this would
clearly be the best first step for where it matters.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [logella] [ In reply to ]
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In order to be truly a deterant Kona and Clearwater qualifiers showed be subject to testing in the immediate aftermath of qualifying for the race.

x2


"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
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x3
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [redtdi] [ In reply to ]
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In order to be truly a deterant Kona and Clearwater qualifiers showed be subject to testing in the immediate aftermath of qualifying for the race.

x2


x4

I think the immediate post-race testing (w/in 24 hrs of getting Q slot, for example) is a wonderful first step, and would deter the vast majority of the (hopefully) small minority who would dope to qualify.


I'm not against OOC testing per se (I personally would have no problem w/ it, were I qualified for, or attempting to qualify for Draftwater or Kona).

But I can see the issues regarding folks having to report their whereabouts, missing tests, potential false positives, and whether a positive result (false or no) would be made public.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the top result of a quick google search of "epo testing"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/.../06/080626100921.htm

One of the reasons for the Biological Passport is that it is difficult to detect epo in an athlete (as the study in the above link notes) but it's easy to detect unnatural changes in blood profiles. Obviously the WTC isn't going to do a biological passport.

So let's say the WTC decides to do an epo test on all Kona and Clearwater qualifiers. That's a $400 test that according to the study is marginally effective for catching athletes during the BOOSTING stage! 2000 athletes at $400 per test, who pays, and is it effective? No, testing on site after an athlete qualifies for Kona or Clearwater would be like taking a breathalyzer 1 week after drinking. Worthless. In my opinion, out of competition testing is the ONLY way to deter athletes from using PED's and even then it's only marginally effective. I'm only basing this on the opinion that 70.3 and 140.6 athletes would be using epo and not other drugs like steroids and testosterone.

As I've said before, I think AG testing is a bad idea for 2 reasons-the money and resources should be used to deter pros who are performing at a level that many times seems super-human compared to top amateurs going 9 hours with in many cases the same time and resources dedicated to training as a pro. The second reason is that because of these "modest" performances (compared to pros) I really don't believe age groupers are using performance enhancing drugs. But if anyone thinks testing will prove or disprove this notion, then they're mistaken.

I'd like to see a program where all potential qualifiers are subject to testing even before they qualify. Let's be honest-if you're going for a Kona or Clearwater slot, it's no accident, you're going for it starting in the off-season. So you are required at the start of each year to submit your name knowing that you can be tested at any time during the year. If they do decide to test every Kona and Clearwater qualifier, those tests should be done not after the athlete qualifies, but long before those Championship races occur.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

I aplaud the WTC for taking these steps - it's a bold and good move, but I am still of the belief and feeling that this is going to be a hairy beast of a thing to deal with.

Even with minimal loopholes and ironclad protrocol, the drug testing for elite athletes in many elite sports, is frauoght with all kinds of issues. For AG, who are essentially doing this as a hobby on supposedily ar recreational basis, I am guessing that it's going to be a big headache.

Just one issue among many:

You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot. Contrast this with the pro/elite level athletes, who are told to take nothing and/or be extremely careful about what you take - to make sure that it has not been contaminated in any way. I am guessing that there are AG athletes walking around right now, today, that would test positive for something on a WADA list, and they would not even know it!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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"Obviously the WTC isn't going to do a biological passport."

why can't/couldn't WTC or any testing authority establish a biological passport for athletes in the OOC pool? of course, this depends on how long one is in the OOC pool, and this is one of the questions i'd like to ask WTC. if you're in the pool for 6 months leading up to kona, and you're tested every 6 weeks, then there's 4 tests that'll show a progression. is that enough testing to establish a passport? i don't know.

but you bring up a good point, don't you? an expensive EPO test that's very unreliable, or a half-dozen blood tests at $20 each that are highly reliable.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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As someone who has worked her ass off to compete at the relative pointy end of the admittedly old lady stick, I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM coughing up a buck or two and paying for my own testing and asking the people I am racing against to do the same.

With all the $$ I have spent training and racing, a few dollars more to ensure that the competition is clean would be money well spent. I don't think that doping is limited to pros or AG men. And beyond blatant doping are the "medically necessary" treatments that will improve performance or recovery. Who knows how prevalent that is......I know of more than one incident.

Test me in-season, out-of-season, I don't care......if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about.

Although, why AG'ers would risk their health, integrity and overall karma to "win" at a game is beyond me. Getting to Kona or Clearwater means you are a reasonably good athlete with the money, time and determination to take advantage of your genetics.........doesn't mean much more than that in the big picture.

G


It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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"You know the AG triathlon crowd. These people take all manner of supplements like candy. If they are told it will help with anything, they'll take it, no questions asked, on the spot. Contrast this with the pro/elite level athletes, who are told to take nothing and/or be extremely careful about what you take - to make sure that it has not been contaminated in any way. I am guessing that there are AG athletes walking around right now, today, that would test positive for something on a WADA list, and they would not even know it!

I'm not easily offended, but you keep saying this, and it keeps offending me. I don't care how naive I may be but if you think age groupers who are competing for ego and a Kona slot will take supplements like candy and PROS who WILL NOT BE TESTED IF THEY WIN AN IRONMAN and are competing for their livelihood wouldn't, then you're crazy. Do you want that Scott Molina quote again? The one about how Tinley had a closet so full of supplements that his wife couldn't find room for the groceries? Or the trace contamination cases of Spencer Smith, Rebecca Keat, Oliver Bernard, Kelly Guest, and Mike Vine? Or Francisco Pontano, who tested positive for a drug used to control the side effects of steroids and testosterone only to NOT be sanctioned?

Quit picking on the Age Group athlete.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Having only had the chance to read a few of the other posts;

Agree with Dev etc that I wouldn't really care about testing AT the WC's. As an AG I think the personal race is getting there, so test all the qualifiers. They could test one of the top (say) 10 for 50% of the AG's at the WC's just to make people think twice there.

Not knowing much about how they work though, I'm wondering whether testing at qualifiers (or the 14 days after) is good enough. Perhaps they dope like crazy in the buildup to their qualifier and get monster strong during the training phase. They then ween off prior to qualifier but because they are strong they can keep pushing it harder than normal so the benefit in some way remains? Come race day they may be clean and still super fast thus nothing shows up. Problem is you can't test them before they have even qualified (I gather). In the absence of anything better I think Dev's suggestion is ideal.

As for penalties, I think a lifetime ban on any WC level event, and possibly even any IM brand event. Get rid of them for good or at least tell them they can enter but they get no official result.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not easily offended, but you keep saying this, and it keeps offending me. I don't care how naive I may be but if you think age groupers who are competing for ego and a Kona slot will take supplements like candy and PROS who WILL NOT BE TESTED IF THEY WIN AN IRONMAN and are competing for their livelihood wouldn't, then you're crazy. Do you want that Scott Molina quote again? The one about how Tinley had a closet so full of supplements that his wife couldn't find room for the groceries? Or the trace contamination cases of Spencer Smith, Rebecca Keat, Oliver Bernard, Kelly Guest, and Mike Vine? Or Francisco Pontano, who tested positive for a drug used to control the side effects of steroids and testosterone only to NOT be sanctioned?

Michael,

All the examples you mention are elite level triathletes competing in Ironman events - with the exceptions of Vine and Guest(I'll come back to these). Do you not think that because these Pros knew that the drug testing was loose at best in IM racing and has been for years, that they could take all these supplements(all legal and OTC but maybe contaminated) and not worry about it. Contrast that with sports were there is a lot of testing - most endurances sports in the Olympic Games, and if those athletes are part of a national testing pool with their Fed, then they are advised to really be careful with what they take, or best case scenerio - take nothing! That's what I am saying.

As for Vine and Guest - Vine raced almost exclusivly on the Xterra circut, another race series which my, best guess is soft on testing. Guest, was caught with a positive test( subsequently strongly disputed and faught at a number of levels) I believe, as a result of being part of TriCan's national team testing pool. I will note again that until now, triathletes in Canada, who raced anything other than ITU races - that means, Ironman, 70.3, Xterra, and all other non-drafting tris, were rarely if ever tested. Other countries, including the U.S. are similar.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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As someone who has worked her ass off to compete at the relative pointy end of the admittedly old lady stick, I would have absolutely NO PROBLEM coughing up a buck or two and paying for my own testing and asking the people I am racing against to do the same.

Just to be clear, this isn't "asking". It is demanding. It is, "Consent to drug tests or you cannot enter the race"

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Test me in-season, out-of-season, I don't care......if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about.

I had to do a double take to be sure you'd actually gone ahead and said this. But yup, there it is. Please tell me this was meant tongue-in-cheek. Do you have any idea what abuses of liberty and privacy this brain-dead sentiment has been used to justify?
Last edited by: JoeO: Sep 16, 09 7:14
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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Let me clarify......this is a GAME. We CHOOSE to play it.......we don't HAVE to.

Requiring testing would not force anybody to be tested, if they don't want to accept the rules, they can CHOOSE not to play and avoid any perceived violations of their privacy. It's totally up to them......a personal choice.

Is it really so different from wear an approved helmet or you can't enter the race? When we enter, we are agreeing to follow the rules.

I am willing to open myself up to abuses of liberty and privacy that may result, because I make the choice to compete.

AG'ers don't make $$ playing. They don't NEED to compete. They are free to find another sport to play if they don't agree with the rules of this one.

I struggle to understand those who attempt to turn a recreational activity into something more.....

G


It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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And again, as I've stated a couple of times here, I understand that we choose this. And I'm fine with you opening yourself up to those abuses. But now you want to tell me that if I want to continue to play, I have to open myself up to the same abuses.

And for what? So that you can be sure that you weren't cheated out of a kona slot?

No prize money here. No endorsements. Nobody's livelihood is being threatened. I now have to submit to a drug test to make others feel better about what they spent all the money on. Or I can choose not to enter. Before I didn't have to do that. There is a new barrier to my entry. You also made a choice. You chose to spend all that money and time on this sport. Nobody made you. But now you feel that entitles you to my blood. I disagree.

Remember, they test for PEDs and they test for recreational drugs. I see no prohibition on them keeping samples as long as they want. TUEs, etc. It is a record. It can be subpoena-ed by the government if they choose. Am I worried about that? Do I do recreational drugs? Of course not. That's not the point. It's none of their damn business. Its one more nail in the coffin of my privacy or give up the fun thing that I love.

They can screw it up. Wait, correction. They WILL screw it up. If there is one thing that history has shown, they absolutely without question WILL screw it up. They will release information they are not supposed to. They already do it with elites. They will get tests wrong. Maybe there are things in my blood that aren't illegal but that somebody wants to know about. Maybe I need a TUE for something my employer or insurer wants to know about. We keep medical records private for a reason. But now to do this hobby, we have to let more people know about them. All so you can feel better about spending all that money.

And when it comes time for me to have to sign on the dotted line, I probably will. I have the relief of knowing I'm not headed for Kona anytime soon. But if some drug tester comes by, I wonder if I won't just tell him to go screw purely on principle and then give up a hobby I really like.

The irony of all of this is that you end up your post with the statement

"I struggle to understand those who attempt to turn a recreational activity into something more"

I think adding drug testing of age-groupers completes the transformation
Last edited by: JoeO: Sep 16, 09 8:45
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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You don't have to give up your hobby, just not go to clearwater and kona :)

Also, I think if they go forward with this it makes it that much more important to get this rankings system working. There is no point of doing a test at the qualifier or inbetween the qualifier and kona, it is 99% pointless. If they have the rankings system they can see if anybody is making improbable improvements or who is way above and beyond other people and then test them out of competition.

The other question is who is going to be taking these tests? Are they going to have some guy driving around in a geo metro poking people? What if he loses the samples or mixes them up?

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
Last edited by: msuguy512: Sep 16, 09 8:46
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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No, I don't feel that I am entitled to your blood, what I am entitled to is a level playing field made up of competitors who compete fairly and equitably according to the rules of the game they choose to play.

I have been to Kona and hope to go again, so yes, I take this hobby very seriously. But am I willing to risk my health and integrity to get on the podium and back to the Big Island? No, absolutely not. Because it's bad for me phsically and it's against the rules. Am I confident that all of my fellow competitiors feel the same way? Again, absolutely not.

It is a game and a recreational activity. And perhaps it is easier for those who are a llittle farther back from the pointy end of the stick to say it doesn't matter if people dope because it doesn't afffect them. However, when it does directly affect you and the results of your honest efforts, it can be a bit tough to stomach.

I am pretty comfortable in saying that there are people doping or pushing the envelope amongst my competitors........it's not right and they should not be rewarded because there is no testing. Simple as that.

G


It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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No, I don't feel that I am entitled to your blood, what I am entitled to is a level playing field made up of competitors who compete fairly and equitably according to the rules of the game they choose to play.

You can't have one without the other. In order to get your "entitlement", someone is going to be taking my blood or urine. Someone is going to be keeping a record.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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The fact of the matter is that Ironman is owned and operated by a private company who have every right to make you do all sorts of valid or invalid, reasonable or downright silly things in order to participate in their event.

If they write into the rules that everyone has to show up at bike check wearing a dunce cap and clown shoes, that's their right and your option as a consumer is simply to either get in line, or spend your money elsewhere.
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