Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
at least he's consistant in his questioning results.

He doubts everyone but himself ;)
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
LeMond, who writes an opinion piece in France's Le Monde newspaper during the Tour, questioned Contador's performance on the final climb to Verbier on stage 15, which the Spaniard won ahead of Andy Schleck by 43 seconds and took over the race lead.

Here is lemond's article (in french.) Babelfish it if you're interested.
http://www.lemonde.fr/...nd_1221871_3242.html



"Can’t I just start alone? I don’t need a team. All I need is a mechanic and a car!"-Jens Voight http://velonews.competitor.com/...lgem-and-more_108891 "
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I love Lemond, but he thinks everyone is on dope. And he may be right. If there is still serious drug use, I don't think it would be just one or two of the top. It's probably all or none, and none of us will know unless someone gets caught. Just relax and enjoy folks.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maybe Lemond forgot that a big-ass tailwind helps quite a bit. Doesn't look like he rides enough anymore to relate to the aid provided by a strong tailwind, especially for a tiny guy like Alberto.

I guess this counts as another Tour that Lemond would have, could have won...who has the link that that?
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [remnfa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is pretty crazy- from the Lemond article in Lemonde.... and very easy to come to the sad conclusion that 100% of the cyclists do the same thing- regardless of their marketing gimickry- as the sport has only gotten faster.

At the time of the Festina lawsuit, in 2000, in Lille, of testimonys had made the point that cyclists with VO2 max in the 70 were able to carry them to approximately 90. This jump of performance was so important that no clean cyclist then could compete. If one had used the method evaluation of V02 max, one could have noted the intensive use of the EPO and the blood transfusions in the group well before these practices are not also deeply anchored in our sport. This is why I remain dubitative vis-a-vis any performance which appears too good to be true
Last edited by: mlinenb: Jul 23, 09 13:43
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Do you think Ferrari is not intimately familiar with numerous top riders wattage data- such as Lance?

I already told you what I thought of Ferrari...he's a quack...and he also plays loosey-goosey with the power numbers he throws around.


In Reply To:
On a different note- This is the first public rider comment that maybe thought (sadly thought) that this year would be a clean(er) tour.... how naive can he be?

from velonews.com
The yellow jersey crossed a minute later, the balance of power unaltered between Saxo and Astana. The real loser on the day was Evans, who finished 46th on the day, nearly three minutes behind Contador.
"I'm out of it," the two-time Tour runner-up said. "I'm out of the race. For a place on the podium at least."
The Silence-Lotto rider then added, cryptically: "Physically, everything (is) fine. But for professional reasons I can't comment on the problems I've been having."

Oh please...he most likely didn't want to say "Well...once again my team wouldn't pony up the money to get me some real help in the mountains. My team sucks."
I don't disagree with your statement, as Cadel has a record of ripping apart his teammates and their (lack of) athletic ability. That's why his statement is interesting- why hold back now if it was an attack against his teammates versus something else.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/...5826914-2722,00.html

Hehe...looks like I was fairly prescient the other day about Cadel and his comments...he HAS given up on them ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
This is pretty crazy- from the Lemond article in Lemonde.... and very easy to come to the sad conclusion that 100% of the cyclists do the same thing- regardless of their marketing gimickry- as the sport has only gotten faster.

At the time of the Festina lawsuit, in 2000, in Lille, of testimonys had made the point that cyclists with VO2 max in the 70 were able to carry them to approximately 90. This jump of performance was so important that no clean cyclist then could compete. If one had used the method evaluation of V02 max, one could have noted the intensive use of the EPO and the blood transfusions in the group well before these practices are not also deeply anchored in our sport. This is why I remain dubitative vis-a-vis any performance which appears too good to be true

I think Mr. LeMond needs to look at Mr. Vayer's calculations and, more importantly, his assumptions (the important one being the correlation, or lack thereof, between FTP and VO2max) with perhaps the same level of skepticism he applies to athlete's performances...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
This is pretty crazy- from the Lemond article in Lemonde.... and very easy to come to the sad conclusion that 100% of the cyclists do the same thing- regardless of their marketing gimickry- as the sport has only gotten faster.

At the time of the Festina lawsuit, in 2000, in Lille, of testimonys had made the point that cyclists with VO2 max in the 70 were able to carry them to approximately 90. This jump of performance was so important that no clean cyclist then could compete. If one had used the method evaluation of V02 max, one could have noted the intensive use of the EPO and the blood transfusions in the group well before these practices are not also deeply anchored in our sport. This is why I remain dubitative vis-a-vis any performance which appears too good to be true

I think Mr. LeMond needs to look at Mr. Vayer's calculations and, more importantly, his assumptions (the important one being the correlation, or lack thereof, between FTP and VO2max) with perhaps the same level of skepticism he applies to athlete's performances...
Lemond's article- mentioned testimony given in the Festina Lawsuit. I assume testimony is given by witness or expert witnesses in the court of law. Lemond is not making the conclusions- but stating what a court case found. Take Lemond out of this, Tom A. Once again- it's time to view the forest- versus focusing on a tree.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Lemond's article- mentioned testimony given in the Festina Lawsuit. I assume testimony is given by witness or expert witnesses in the court of law. Lemond is not making the conclusions- but stating what a court case found. Take Lemond out of this, Tom A. Once again- it's time to view the forest- versus focusing on a tree.

Ummm...have you ever sat on a jury where "experts" gave testimony? I have. If you did, then like me you probably heard "experts" give testimony that was almost 180 degrees from each other. Shows the value of "expert testimony" in a court case as being valid just because it was entered in the record, huh?

Me? I think I'll go with the science, rather than the unexamined "expert testimony" in this particular situation.

Why do you keep ignoring that the underpinning's of Vayer's estimates are faulty? Especially since LeMond bases his criticisms on those estimates? If that's the "tree" you're accusing me of focusing on, well...you'd better stop looking at that "forest" so much so you don't go bonkin' your head walking straight into "trees" like that ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
You're not alone. Lemond doubts the credibility of Contador, too and in today's interview- he refused to answer plenty pertinent questions.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...nning-time-trial-win

LeMond, who writes an opinion piece in France's Le Monde newspaper during the Tour, questioned Contador's performance on the final climb to Verbier on stage 15, which the Spaniard won ahead of Andy Schleck by 43 seconds and took over the race lead. The climb came at the end of a 207.5-kilometre stage that also held five other categorised climbs.

"Alberto Contador established a speed record: he went up the 8.5 km climb in 20:55. How to explain such a performance?" wrote LeMond. "He would have required a VO2 max [maximal oxygen consumption] of 99.5 ml / min / kg to produce the effort. To my knowledge, this is a figure that has never been achieved by any athlete in any sport.

"It is like a Mercedes sedan winning a on a Formula 1 circuit. There is something wrong. It would be interesting to know what's under the hood."

Two journalists, one from Le Monde newspaper, asked Contador his VO2 max. Contador refused to answer the questions.

LeMond based his article on data from former Festina trainer and specialist in performance, Antoine Vayer. He said the burden is on Contador to prove he is capable of his performance without the use of drugs.

"Given the recent history of our sport, doubt is required. It should lead us to ask ourselves about performances."

LeMond believes that cycling can use performance tests such as VO2 max to create rider profiles and detected if a rider has doped. He said it would be similar to how the International Cycling Union's tracks blood values in its biological passport it introduced at the beginning of 2008.
Comments about the two parts in bold:

1) An extraordinarily poor analogy, it may be like Force India winning races. His analogy would be more along the lines of one of us winning the Tour

2) Two comments about the second one:

a) How sad is it that our society has come to this, guilty before proven innocent and never truly proven innocent in some peoples minds...an this is for all sports, just ask Beke.
b) If Greg is dead on then shouldn't he have to he was capable of his performances without the use of PED's?

Greg was the person who got me to start riding and racing back in the 80's but he really needs to step back gracefully.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...edibility-questioned

I actually think AC was being "kind" in his power estimate...by my reckoning, Vayer's estimate could be off by as much as 70-100W....

garbage in : garbage out

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
by my reckoning, Vayer's estimate could be off by as much as 70-100W....

If so, it wouldn't be the first time.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [RChung] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
by my reckoning, Vayer's estimate could be off by as much as 70-100W....

If so, it wouldn't be the first time.

...and yet, why do people keep taking his estimations as "gospel"? Is it because he's a former Festina doctor? Are those kinds of guys able to change the laws of physics?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...edibility-questioned

I actually think AC was being "kind" in his power estimate...by my reckoning, Vayer's estimate could be off by as much as 70-100W....

garbage in : garbage out
You think everyone is being kind with their numbers. But AC thinks he could do 450 watts- and that's after 15 stages and the 3rd mt stage in a row. So 7.25 W/Kg 15 days in, that's mighty impressive. Lemond at only 5.7 W/Kg with a VO2 max of 92- would be relegated to water bottle carrying with today's speeds. AC doesn't address that the performance was 15 days into the tour, the 3rd mt stage, a clean rider would have lower HCT as the tour goes on, and I've read that athletes power drops 10-15% that far into the tour- b/c of decreased recovery, fatigue, and lower HCT, and having the climb 125 miles into the race. So- add back another 10-15%- and his clean power rested- would be 495 to 518 watts or 7.98 to 8.35 W/KG. AC's summary doesn't mention any of the preceding- but surmises: "That is still quite high, but not so high that you can definitively state that it can only be achieved via doping." Yeah right. Lemond has a valid point with his testing- as it would be interesting to truly see what's under his hood. Notice how GC guys never release the power or statistics anymore? It's not b/c it's a big secret from their competitors- it's b/c the press would have a hayday with it. Lastly- I feel that the playing field is level for all the GC guys and level for all the domestiques, etc.
Last edited by: mlinenb: Jul 23, 09 18:35
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ivan Basso posts every workout he does, they are available @ mapei. Every workout, Giro stages if he used a powermeter, etc.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
This is pretty crazy- from the Lemond article in Lemonde.... and very easy to come to the sad conclusion that 100% of the cyclists do the same thing- regardless of their marketing gimickry- as the sport has only gotten faster.

At the time of the Festina lawsuit, in 2000, in Lille, of testimonys had made the point that cyclists with VO2 max in the 70 were able to carry them to approximately 90. This jump of performance was so important that no clean cyclist then could compete. If one had used the method evaluation of V02 max, one could have noted the intensive use of the EPO and the blood transfusions in the group well before these practices are not also deeply anchored in our sport. This is why I remain dubitative vis-a-vis any performance which appears too good to be true

I think Mr. LeMond needs to look at Mr. Vayer's calculations and, more importantly, his assumptions (the important one being the correlation, or lack thereof, between FTP and VO2max) with perhaps the same level of skepticism he applies to athlete's performances...
I think it's funny how you focus on the VO2 max numbers and how they got them- versus the fact that the testimony from the riders said you have to dope- just to compete- let alone attempt to do well.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Bnjmn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Ivan Basso posts every workout he does, they are available @ mapei. Every workout, Giro stages if he used a powermeter, etc.
and his performances are now a shadow of his former self.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
its not sad at all

it suggests that humans, stupid as they are, can learn from repeated instruction.

pro cyclists have repeatedly taught us that they use PEDs.

we the fans, most of us, have learned.


I admire your optimism,but I don't think it is rational.

In Reply To:
a) How sad is it that our society has come to this, guilty before proven innocent and never truly proven innocent in some peoples minds...an this is for all sports, just ask Beke.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...edibility-questioned

I actually think AC was being "kind" in his power estimate...

And/or lazy (i.e., there are so many uncertainties involved that it isn't worth the trouble to try to come up with a more precise estimate).

In Reply To:
by my reckoning, Vayer's estimate could be off by as much as 70-100W....

Vayer's estimate was actually 550 W, not the 490 W quoted by cyclingnews.com....so it would seem that we are in the same ballpark (which isn't very surprising, really).

In Reply To:
garbage in : garbage out

Well put.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Lemond's article- mentioned testimony given in the Festina Lawsuit. I assume testimony is given by witness or expert witnesses in the court of law. Lemond is not making the conclusions- but stating what a court case found. Take Lemond out of this, Tom A. Once again- it's time to view the forest- versus focusing on a tree.

Ummm...have you ever sat on a jury where "experts" gave testimony? I have. If you did, then like me you probably heard "experts" give testimony that was almost 180 degrees from each other. Shows the value of "expert testimony" in a court case as being valid just because it was entered in the record, huh?

Me? I think I'll go with the science, rather than the unexamined "expert testimony" in this particular situation.

Why do you keep ignoring that the underpinning's of Vayer's estimates are faulty? Especially since LeMond bases his criticisms on those estimates? If that's the "tree" you're accusing me of focusing on, well...you'd better stop looking at that "forest" so much so you don't go bonkin' your head walking straight into "trees" like that ;-)
Why is this always the criticism that is hurled at detail oriented people? What's that old joke about managers and engineers...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:

a) How sad is it that our society has come to this, guilty before proven innocent and never truly proven innocent in some peoples minds...an this is for all sports, just ask Beke.

It's not sad that 'our society' has come to this, it's sad that CYCLING has come to this. If you don't rationally assume that cycling is rife with cheaters/dopers, given the mountain of evidence to that effect, then you're either hopelessly naive, or worse yet have some sort of ulterior motive to protect dopers.

You can't look at the huge numbers of positive tests across all 'demographics' within cycling and not extend that to assuming that many if not most of the 'stars' of the sport are cheaters and dopers.

I love the sport enough that I can watch it and enjoy it while knowing that cheating is rampant and pervasive. I don't need to fool myself into thinking that cycling, or baseball, or MMA are clean, in order to be a passionate fan of any of them. Reality is what it is. Given the history of the sport and the present state of technology, it's likely that Contador is juiced to the gills. That's just a sad fact. Wishful thinking doesn't help the situation any.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [gbot] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
scottie may just be extremly noble.

that he will assume innocence until absolutely proven otherwise

even if it requires cognitive dissonance.

its not a totally crazy ethos really.


In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:

a) How sad is it that our society has come to this, guilty before proven innocent and never truly proven innocent in some peoples minds...an this is for all sports, just ask Beke.

It's not sad that 'our society' has come to this, it's sad that CYCLING has come to this. If you don't rationally assume that cycling is rife with cheaters/dopers, given the mountain of evidence to that effect, then you're either hopelessly naive, or worse yet have some sort of ulterior motive to protect dopers.

You can't look at the huge numbers of positive tests across all 'demographics' within cycling and not extend that to assuming that many if not most of the 'stars' of the sport are cheaters and dopers.

I love the sport enough that I can watch it and enjoy it while knowing that cheating is rampant and pervasive. I don't need to fool myself into thinking that cycling, or baseball, or MMA are clean, in order to be a passionate fan of any of them. Reality is what it is. Given the history of the sport and the present state of technology, it's likely that Contador is juiced to the gills. That's just a sad fact. Wishful thinking doesn't help the situation any.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I tend to think that there's no such thing as 'absolute' proof, and at some point you just have to step back and make assumptions based on the evidence you have. And when we're talking cycling, this is pretty easy given that we've got a massive mountain of evidence to draw on.
Quote Reply
Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Vayer's estimate was actually 550 W, not the 490 W quoted by cyclingnews.com....so it would seem that we are in the same ballpark (which isn't very surprising, really).

Woah..how much does Vayer think Contador weighs??

Alex came up with an estimate of ~390-420W...which means that Vayer is off by ~150W. That's pretty bad.

You know, Sorenson's file of the climb is out there...one would think that would be the best source to "calibrate" AC's power estimate against. Yeah, it won't be super-accurate...but heck, I'm sure it'll be closer than 150W :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Quote Reply

Prev Next