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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [moulli] [ In reply to ]
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I just assume that they're all on it and why should that effect my enjoyment?

Ummm...because it's cheating???

In any case, I find the "assume they're all guilty" attitude (as you claim the seemingly "enlightened" euros know all so well) to be highly cynical...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. And also Michael Phelps, who might be the single athlete who would surprise me if he got busted.

which is why i think swimming might still be cleaner than most other sports. no doubt there are a large number of dopers, but so far, there are no drugs for flexible joints, long torsos, etc. you just look at the flexibility someone like phelps, or amanda beard, or aaron peirsol has, and you can see why they are the world's best.

too bad the sport is now being ruined by the whole suit thing.
Last edited by: brentl: Jul 20, 09 16:37
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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You know what, though? Whenever the subject of "outlier performances" being indicative of nefarious actions comes up...I always think of a single name: Bob Beamon

Tom,

That was a different age of sport. I think it was different. Perhaps I am being naive but we were all innocent back then. When records were broken the way Beamon did on that Jump in Mexico City - it was a jaw dropping, gee-whiz kinda moment. I was 7 years old. I remember going out in the back yard and my Dad walking off 28 feet to show me how far he had jumped. It was shocking! Now, if someone breaks a record by that amount and magnitude, in any sport, unfortunatly we have had that inocense taken away. We are, a bit to a lot, skeptical of it and that's unfortunate.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [moulli] [ In reply to ]
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Now that it has come common place to cheat just to stay with the main group, we must not forget that the basis of cheating is to get an advantage over your teammates. So while they all may be using the same drugs to stay at the top, they are all still searching for other ways to get that extra advantage over one another.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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You know what, though? Whenever the subject of "outlier performances" being indicative of nefarious actions comes up...I always think of a single name: Bob Beamon

Tom,

That was a different age of sport. I think it was different. Perhaps I am being naive but we were all innocent back then. When records were broken the way Beamon did on that Jump in Mexico City - it was a jaw dropping, gee-whiz kinda moment. I was 7 years old. I remember going out in the back yard and my Dad walking off 28 feet to show me how far he had jumped. It was shocking! Now, if someone breaks a record by that amount and magnitude, in any sport, unfortunatly we have had that inocense taken away. We are, a bit to a lot, skeptical of it and that's unfortunate.


I agree that it's unfortunate about the skepticism, but I highly doubt that Mr. Beamon was on anything, let alone something that would allow that sort of "leap" (pun intended) in performance. I just always look back on that example as "proof" that outlier performances don't necessarily imply cheating.

Your story about walking off Beamon's jump is pretty funny. But, remember, even if you'd just walked off the previous world record in that event, it would've looked pretty shocking as well since it was "only" 2 feet shorter. I was a fairly mediocre high jumper in high school (although not really that bad for my height - I was only 5'7" to 5'8" at the time)...but I recall in practice setting the bar at the current world record and just staring up at the bar thinking "No freakin' way"...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Jul 20, 09 16:58
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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You know what, though? Whenever the subject of "outlier performances" being indicative of nefarious actions comes up...I always think of a single name: Bob Beamon

Tom,

That was a different age of sport. ...
It was a year "After" Tommy Simpson died on the Ventoux doped to the freaking gills.... Just saying.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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You know what, though? Whenever the subject of "outlier performances" being indicative of nefarious actions comes up...I always think of a single name: Bob Beamon

Tom,

That was a different age of sport. I think it was different. Perhaps I am being naive but we were all innocent back then. When records were broken the way Beamon did on that Jump in Mexico City - it was a jaw dropping, gee-whiz kinda moment. I was 7 years old. I remember going out in the back yard and my Dad walking off 28 feet to show me how far he had jumped. It was shocking! Now, if someone breaks a record by that amount and magnitude, in any sport, unfortunatly we have had that inocense taken away. We are, a bit to a lot, skeptical of it and that's unfortunate.


I agree that it's unfortunate about the skepticism, but I highly doubt that Mr. Beamon was on anything, let alone something that would allow that sort of "leap" (pun intended) in performance. I just always look back on that example as "proof" that outlier performances don't necessarily imply cheating.

Your story about walking off Beamon's jump is pretty funny. But, remember, even if you'd just walked off the previous world record in that event, it would've looked pretty shocking as well since it was "only" 2 feet shorter. I was a fairly mediocre high jumper in high school (although not really that bad for my height - I was only 5'7" to 5'8" at the time)...but I recall in practice setting the bar at the current world record and just staring up at the bar thinking "No freakin' way"...

Jesse Owens' WR in the 100m dash stood for 20 years. His LJ WR record stood for 25 years, and would still be considered US national caliber over 70 years later. Anyone want to claim that Owens was doping in 1936? There are times when an athlete is just that much better than everyone else; to use "outlier" as some kind of clue is flat wrong. IIRC, Beamon hurt his leg after the Olympics, and switched to his other leg and was still world class (holds the record for combined jumps for both legs).

(off-topic)

I was at a science center in NH last week. Right outside the mountain lion enclosure, they had the men's LJ record measured out. They pointed out that the mountain lion could clear 30'...from a standing start. They also had a mark on a tree showing how high a mountain lion could go from a standing start. It was 15' up.

(way off topic)

At one point, my HJ PR was 2.00 meters. I broke that with a 2.05m jump at one meet. They then raised the bar to 2.10m. I still recall, 30 years later, the feeling of planting my foot and looking up, up, up at that bar.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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JR,

Not going to comment on this, but the first time I really felt like I was watching a fraud was when Johann Muelhagg, the German/Spanish Nordic skier dropped completely a fully rested a tapered world class field of nordic skiers, at altitude at the Olympic Games 30K Skate in Salt Lake City. Muelhagg made the rest of the best guys in the world look like a bunch of club skiers. As the race wrapped up and he had put over 2:00 minutes into all the best skiers in the world, for the first time, I said to myself, "He's on something", and it turned out that I was right.
Dude, I was there and saw that race in person. He was so far in front of everybody it was a joke, like 8th graders playing basketball with kindergarten kids. He even crashed on the final lap and still crushed it by 2+ minutes - too bad they couldn't get all of his medals back.
Last edited by: dutchboy: Jul 20, 09 17:26
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Just Old] [ In reply to ]
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Jesse Owens' WR in the 100m dash stood for 20 years. His LJ WR record stood for 25 years, and would still be considered US national caliber over 70 years later. Anyone want to claim that Owens was doping in 1936? There are times when an athlete is just that much better than everyone else; to use "outlier" as some kind of clue is flat wrong. IIRC, Beamon hurt his leg after the Olympics, and switched to his other leg and was still world class (holds the record for combined jumps for both legs).

Jesse Owens is an excellent example.


In Reply To:
I was at a science center in NH last week. Right outside the mountain lion enclosure, they had the men's LJ record measured out. They pointed out that the mountain lion could clear 30'...from a standing start. They also had a mark on a tree showing how high a mountain lion could go from a standing start. It was 15' up.

I live in mountain lion country. Although encounters with them are pretty rare, just the thought of something with the instincts and "attitudes" of my house cats amplified up to the size of a mountain lion just flat out scares the crap out of me! I don't go mountain biking alone very often anymore...



In Reply To:
At one point, my HJ PR was 2.00 meters. I broke that with a 2.05m jump at one meet. They then raised the bar to 2.10m. I still recall, 30 years later, the feeling of planting my foot and looking up, up, up at that bar.

Speaking of "outliers" and high school athletics...I jumped an entire foot further than I ever had in the final jump of my high school career. On a percentage basis, that increase was a greater "leap" in performance for me that day than Beamon's jump was for him. Go figure... ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I am mostly disturbed that you aren't disturbed about witnessing Lance's first 'clean' tour. Watch any of his 7 victories and you will be 'disturbed' by those rides as well
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [hank rearden] [ In reply to ]
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Duck?

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"But this just doesn't sit well with me."

It doesn't sit well with me, either. I've already considered the possibilities, and I think it's very disturbing. And to the poster who mentioned Phelps, I wouldn't be surprised if he got busted for PED's. A long time ago, I got over being surprised when pro athletes in any sport get dinged for taking performance-enhancers.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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What is interesting, is in the latest Procycling, is that the most watts for a climb ever was Jan in 1997 at arclis for an avg. of 497 watts. Its not even in our sample.As far as meters climbed? ..................I would go with Lemond on saying watts shows more for doping.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I think the simpler answer or maybe question is- why wouldn't they all dope? and how could they possibly stop doping?- versus having shock with any given performance. Contador along with many other riders were connected to Operation Puerto- but that was shoved under the rug by the Spanish cycling mafia. Valverde is defended in Spain- yet banned in Italy because of compelling evidence. Nearly everyone on that top list of performances of VAM- has tested positive, been banned, highly implicated, or tested positively retroactively. Ever wonder why many athletes that initially race with lance and then go onto other teams get busted... heras, landis, hamilton, etc. Lance did donate 500k to the UCI- that's sort of a conflict of interest to take that- especially if the UCI has power to ban a rider for dope.

Here's an interesting interview: http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Mabye Contador and the other top GC pros have VO2 maxes above 100... notice how you'll never see a top Pro publish their power data- but it's only domestiques.... you don't want to publish numbers that are physiologically not possible without assistance.....
-----------------------

CB: Were you aware of what you could do in terms of average rate of vertical ascent? For instance, Ivan Basso made everyone's eyes bug out when he was ascending at 1800 vertical meters an hour on the Colle San Carlo in the 2006 Giro.
GL: What wattage was he doing? I would look more at wattage because the rate of vertical ascent could vary so much depending on the pavement. Wattage is the ultimate truth. You know I'm very controversial because I think that you have to look at numbers.
My wattage, relative to VO2 Max...a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way...I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l'Alpe d'Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390. That was the historic norm for Hinault and myself. You've got times going back many, many years. But what was learned recently, in the last 5 years, was that when you start the Tour de France, you start with a normal hematocrit of, say, 45 percent. By the time you finish, it's probably down 10 or 15 percent. Which means my VO2 Max dropped 10 or 15 percent. So that's why I was never producing the same wattage. And then there a lot of other factors that help performance if you've recovered. My last time trial in '89, I averaged about 420, 430 watts, which would match or be slightly down from what my real VO2 Max was.
Of course, in the '90s drugs came on the scene, so the wattages have gone out. There are some things that are just not explainable, people with VO2 Maxs in the low 80s producing 500 watts. A physiologist friend of my said that for a person to do that, 500 watts, he has to have to have nearly 100 milliliters of Oxygen. There are a lot of questions there for me.
When I start seeing wattage down to the historic norm, I'll know that the battle of the drugs is starting to get back in place.
CB: We can at least understand that statistically, the physical gift that you possessed was one in millions?
GL: I read in a deposition in a trial that an expert witness said that I couldn't have had a ninety [VO2 Max]...that I would have been a one in a thousand in the pro ranks to have that. I happened to have been in the 1980s and was probably the best rider out of a thousand pros. So [laughs], I was one in a thousand.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [uli] [ In reply to ]
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Is it still not common knowledge that the top contenders are drugged up?

Apparently not.

No test for autologous blood doping. Probably means that autologous blood doping is rampant.

Micro-dosing of EPO and hormones carefully monitored so they don't trigger positives.

The testing programs don't breed compliance, they breed innovation and creativity. The question probably isn't "clean" vs. "doping" but just the scale and sophistication of the doping.

Contador's team has a depth of experience unparalleled in cycling.....
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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I think the simpler answer or maybe question is- why wouldn't they all dope? and how could they possibly stop doping?- versus having shock with any given performance. Contador along with many other riders were connected to Operation Puerto- but that was shoved under the rug by the Spanish cycling mafia. Valverde is defended in Spain- yet banned in Italy because of compelling evidence. Nearly everyone on that top list of performances of VAM- has tested positive, been banned, highly implicated, or tested positively retroactively. Ever wonder why many athletes that initially race with lance and then go onto other teams get busted... heras, landis, hamilton, etc. Lance did donate 500k to the UCI- that's sort of a conflict of interest to take that- especially if the UCI has power to ban a rider for dope.

Here's an interesting interview: http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/oralhistory/lemond.html

Mabye Contador and the other top GC pros have VO2 maxes above 100... notice how you'll never see a top Pro publish their power data- but it's only domestiques.... you don't want to publish numbers that are physiologically not possible without assistance.....
-----------------------

CB: Were you aware of what you could do in terms of average rate of vertical ascent? For instance, Ivan Basso made everyone's eyes bug out when he was ascending at 1800 vertical meters an hour on the Colle San Carlo in the 2006 Giro.
GL: What wattage was he doing? I would look more at wattage because the rate of vertical ascent could vary so much depending on the pavement. Wattage is the ultimate truth. You know I'm very controversial because I think that you have to look at numbers.
My wattage, relative to VO2 Max...a VO2 Max of 92 or 93 in a fully recovered way...I think I was capable of producing 450 to 460 watts. The truth is, even at the Tour de France, my Tour de France climb times up l'Alpe d'Huez yielded a wattage of around 380 and 390. That was the historic norm for Hinault and myself. You've got times going back many, many years. But what was learned recently, in the last 5 years, was that when you start the Tour de France, you start with a normal hematocrit of, say, 45 percent. By the time you finish, it's probably down 10 or 15 percent. Which means my VO2 Max dropped 10 or 15 percent. So that's why I was never producing the same wattage. And then there a lot of other factors that help performance if you've recovered. My last time trial in '89, I averaged about 420, 430 watts, which would match or be slightly down from what my real VO2 Max was.
Of course, in the '90s drugs came on the scene, so the wattages have gone out. There are some things that are just not explainable, people with VO2 Maxs in the low 80s producing 500 watts. A physiologist friend of my said that for a person to do that, 500 watts, he has to have to have nearly 100 milliliters of Oxygen. There are a lot of questions there for me.
When I start seeing wattage down to the historic norm, I'll know that the battle of the drugs is starting to get back in place.
CB: We can at least understand that statistically, the physical gift that you possessed was one in millions?
GL: I read in a deposition in a trial that an expert witness said that I couldn't have had a ninety [VO2 Max]...that I would have been a one in a thousand in the pro ranks to have that. I happened to have been in the 1980s and was probably the best rider out of a thousand pros. So [laughs], I was one in a thousand.


Hmmm...looks to me like Mr. LeMond is actually offering information affirming the assumption that AC is NOT on drugs (given the assumption that GL wasn't on them either)...since those power numbers he spouts out are in the same ballpark as to what has been estimated that Contador put out during that short climb...

Interesting.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Lemond is heavier than Contador, so compare w/Kg vs just watts- and Contador crushes Lemond and everyone else. Plus with decreased power as the tour goes on- I don't see how his statements would support an off the charts Contador. The interview appears to be a couple years old. As to who uses drugs and doesn't- I assume all professionals act professionally and use any method they can to get their best performance for their team, sponsor, and family- whether today, or in Lemond's day or in Merckx's day or Coppi's day, etc. I've read many, many, many accounts of Sunday's stage- where riders give their thoughts and feedback- and I couldn't find one statement that thought Contador's feat was beyond normal limits. Obviously a sign (to me) that the field is level- the mafia omerta is strong as ever, and the riders are still at the most 'professional level' (i.e. all doing what they can do - to be the fastest cyclists they can be). Just like a baseball or football player would do. I don't fault any of the cyclists for the system they are in- or their choices- it's just the way it is- in Pro Tour- and they are working hard, paying their bills, having a family- just like us. MOst people on boards- are armchair followers of sport- and yes- lots of people here ride- but how many have ridden 500 miles in a week- let alone 800 miles in a week- climbing thousands and thousands of vertical feet. I think many would have a different perspective on 'ethics and sport' if they actually had to do what these riders do. I am a very much by the book person- feel that I am highly ethical, yet- I have ridden 500 mile weeks (and can't even imagine 800-900 mile weeks)- and if my income and career depended upon it and if it was my work- I would do exactly what the top cyclists are doing to prepare. As the research clearly shows- doping can increase performance and wattage by 20% and help recovery much more. When times are only several % apart for the entire peloton- there is only ONE choice a pro can make to be a pro and compete (within the time cut off limits and not be kicked out for being too slow). Luckily- I only ride for fun (don't remotely have the genetics) and don't have to face their reality.


This is an interesting historical chart- and backgroup on the performances
http://www.sportsscientists.com/...power-estimates.html


Last edited by: mlinenb: Jul 20, 09 19:10
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. And also Michael Phelps, who might be the single athlete who would surprise me if he got busted.

But, he already did get "busted"...it just wasn't for a PED. Well...at least it's not a PED for swimming ;-)
Yeah, it's only a PED for playing bass guitar.



Erik
Strava
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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"Hmmm...looks to me like Mr. LeMond is actually offering information affirming the assumption that AC is NOT on drugs (given the assumption that GL wasn't on them either)...since those power numbers he spouts out are in the same ballpark as to what has been estimated that Contador put out during that short climb..."


I just wanted to highlight this.

Thanks, Tom.

It's been entertaining watching people tilt at windmills, but it seems pretty clear that using a flawed metric to analyze crude data with unclear and poorly defined waypoints is an excercise in futility - at best.

'nuff said, right?

Nope.

When the info derived from a better than cursory examination of the (crude) data actually seems to contradict the thinly-veiled accusations being thrown around, this all begins to get more than a little bit sad...


.

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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Is it still not common knowledge that the top contenders are drugged up?

Apparently not.

No test for autologous blood doping. Probably means that autologous blood doping is rampant.

Micro-dosing of EPO and hormones carefully monitored so they don't trigger positives.

The testing programs don't breed compliance, they breed innovation and creativity. The question probably isn't "clean" vs. "doping" but just the scale and sophistication of the doping.

Contador's team has a depth of experience unparalleled in cycling.....
One of the comments that both Bob Roll and the Liggett/Sherwin duo have made regularly is about how Yaroslav Popovych, who rode very badly with Silence-Lotto, immediately upon returning to ride for Johan Bruyneel is back on the same form he was when he rode for Disco, kicking ass - setting tempo, etc. Now, there are plenty of examples of players going to other teams - both good and bad - and not doing well (Jose Contreras sucking for the Yankees and awesome for the White Sox, as an example). I can see if you were the only person who was any good to work for Evans, who may suck to be a domestique for (I have no idea), that could suck and you could just not be motivated. But, I also don't think it's necessarily the most positive message.

In any case, as Dan said, I'm simply trying to tastefully discuss a distasteful topic. I'm glad I did, since Tom A.'s thoughts on VAM were really valuable, and if I'd never asked, I wouldn't have known.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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It is no matter how 'disturbed' you might be by these figures. Fortunately, in most of the societies readers of this forum live in, there are some maxims that apply. Foremost amongst them is that you are Innocent until proven guilty.

We all know that doping/cheating has been prevalent in the Tour de France ever since it first started. That also happens to be the nature of sport in general. Competitors are always looking for ways to win. Some look for legal methods other not legal.

Surmising whether an athlete is using illegal methods is pointless speculation and a waste of time. Anyone can cheat, and some will cheat, as much they want. But at the end of the day, it is only cheating when they are caught.

At the moment AC is not cheating. He's having a good tour.

Trust me I’m a doctor!
Well, I have a PhD :-)
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [irncpl] [ In reply to ]
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It is no matter how 'disturbed' you might be by these figures. Fortunately, in most of the societies readers of this forum live in, there are some maxims that apply. Foremost amongst them is that you are Innocent until proven guilty.

We all know that doping/cheating has been prevalent in the Tour de France ever since it first started. That also happens to be the nature of sport in general. Competitors are always looking for ways to win. Some look for legal methods other not legal.

Surmising whether an athlete is using illegal methods is pointless speculation and a waste of time. Anyone can cheat, and some will cheat, as much they want. But at the end of the day, it is only cheating when they are caught.

At the moment AC is not cheating. He's having a good tour.
thoughts to ponder- guilty of what? if they all train the same way? Is AC cheating- if he prepares the same way as every other rider? He's certainly not 'cheating' if he's doing the same thing as his peers? right? you don't hear other riders speculating about other riders performances? instead- you hear them give congrats... and probably think- what is he doing- i need to add that to my 'program'. the press loves records and strong performances. the fans love record breaking performances. the sponsors love when their riders win. i'm not sure anyone is being cheated... except the riders themselves- not each other- but sadly themselves- who will ultimately suffer whatever consequences come from their doctor's training aids. who knows what the health will be of the cycling rat generation and all the tests they have put into and through their body.
Last edited by: mlinenb: Jul 20, 09 19:22
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Conversely, you have guys like Kevin Livingston, Bobby Julich and Santiago Botero sucking on T-mobile which had an organized program apparently.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [irncpl] [ In reply to ]
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Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard. And cheating is still cheating is still cheating whether others are doing it or not. i.e. to think AC is innocent is pure folly.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [irncpl] [ In reply to ]
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But at the end of the day, it is only cheating when they are caught.

What a load of crap!!!

Doping is doping. It is against the rules, and hence illegal, and hence cheating, whether you get caught or not. Same with drafting, or cutting the run short. It's still cheating.

That mindset is the problem, not the solution.
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