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Massive Marathon Pain - normal?
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I've finished two IMs and one marathon. In IM wisconsin '06 I had to stop running at the 17 mile mark because of knee and hip pain. When walking, no pain of that sort. When running yes. I did some research and found the suggestion that I may not have enough miles in my legs.
So this year, training for IM Lake Placid, I did the long runs every weekend from a typical marathon training program. Several long runs at 15+ and one 20 miler.
At Lake Placid, since I had some other problems going on (weird back pains that I never had before - before the race even began), I walked about half of the marathon due to back pain. So I never got to feel any knee or hip pain.
Marathon Sept. 13th. Around mile 19-20, I started having hip and knee pain. Mile 21 to the end was a voyage into pain I have never known. I was bawling my eyes out crying, I wanted to lay down and die. I kept stopping, bent over, then walking 3-5 steps and then would run (death shuffle) again. I had the goal to run the whole thing, since I had never done that before. I wondered if I was just being a wimp, since marathons do hurt. I wondered if I was doing damage to my body, yes, the pain was that bad.
I didn't care about time. I finished, and walking around had some dull soreness but not the MASSIVE PAIN I was experiencing.

I have NO knee or hip pain on any other runs, even the 20 miler... where I'll have a dull ache by the last 1/2 mile or so.

My liquid intake and nutrition was just fine during all my races. I have never ended up dehydrated nor bonking.

Any suggestions?
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [determination] [ In reply to ]
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thoughts:

when you train - what surfaces? and the race, pavement I would guess?
...I get odd aches when I run outside (I run outside probably once a month. treadmill all the time, less injuries for me). Cambered roads, terrain you're not used to (pavement is SO much impact) can cause more stress on your legs hips lower back. If you run on the treadmill a lot, outdoors is more work on your calves because there's more of a push off.

Total mileage? Even if your long runs are the right length... how's your weekly mileage in comparison to them (long run makes up what % of weekly mileage?) --- thought here is just how much your body is really used to running and the stress of it.

lastly, see a good massage therapist or chiropractor, make sure your hips are even / no leg length discrepancies.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [determination] [ In reply to ]
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That type of pain is definitely not normal! There are tons of different things that could be wrong, you probably won't get your answer here. I suggest that you start by figuring out if the pain is caused by something structural (you) and/or equipment.

Find a good sports doctor and give him all your sports history, including everything you described and all the details tigerchik suggested (road type, etc). Hopefully, your problem might be easily fixed by physical therapy or chiropractic care.

Have you ever had a bike fit done? It might be worth the money to have someone do a fit for you to make sure that your bike position isn't causing problems on the run. I'd also suggest getting a gait analysis done to make sure you are in the right shoes. Or maybe you need orthotics? Or shims under a leg to straighten your hips out?

Make sure you keep pushing for answers until you get everything resolved. Hope you figure out what's wrong soon!

~Rebecca
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [FeS] [ In reply to ]
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Some answers to the questions.
Run outside year round mostly on pavement. Occasionally dirt roads. I avoid the treadmill unless it's sleeting. Hate running trails because I usually fall down at some point.
Never had a problem in any other tri's, even half IMs.
See chiro / ART practitioner (same person) every 2-3 weeks - from the beginning, no lower body issues were seen in the x-rays. I first went to her because of knee pain 4 years ago. She determined that my problem was muscle imbalances in the ankles. She worked on them with ART therapy and in 4-5 sessions I have been pain free up to 20 mile runs.

Had my running gait analyzed via video - no problems seen there.
Peak weekly mileage for this year's IM was around 50 miles per week (during the 3 weeks of heaviest IM training). It's tough for me to do that much because it takes a lot of time because my pace is slow - 10 min. miles.

Husband is professional bike-fitter and he fit me on the bike. He's been F.I.S.T. certified, 10+ years experience with tri bikes in our area. Considered the best in our area by many people.

Got running shoes from reputable local store that also has gait analysis capabilities, and they looked at my feet also.

I'm trying to also get with a sports PA (or dr? not sure which he is) in the area to further explore these issues, look at my gait again and look for muscle imbalances.
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [determination] [ In reply to ]
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Wow - sounds like you've looked into everything that I would suspect. I'm sorry that this is still an issue for you after you've done so much. I hope you get to the cause of the problem soon!
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [determination] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm, definitely have it checked out with a sport's doc. You could have a light fxtr anywhere from your hip/pelvis downwards. I know, sounds nasty, but at least you could start ruling things out. I"m with TC, how was your mileage prior to your LSDs and marathon? If you are doing short weekly mileage, then adding a 17, 20 here and there, it probably isn't enough, but it still wouldn't account for the xtreme pain you were feeling. Sounds like a possible fxtr to me. Get it checked out ASAP before you start training increased mileage again.

N~
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [determination] [ In reply to ]
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Having been through over 20 marathons in competition and twice that many in training, my experience has been to train through what is weakest. Spend some months practicing those long runs; not 15 milers-that will never in my experience, train you for how you feel at mile 25.

Do the work of really long runs, maybe up to 50k, without worrying about your speed, and allow your muscles and brain to harden to the task of running. It may be time well spent.

DFL > DNF > DNS
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [determination] [ In reply to ]
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The only other thing I could add would be how many miles were you doing on the bike in aero position (assuming you race in aero) and how many bricks did you do? I notice that I having tremendous back issues on the run when I haven't logged enough time on the bike in aero. I suspect it takes your body some getting used to even if the bike is fit to you correctly.


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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [determination] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have nearly the experience that many others do here, but do have a few marathons under my belt. It definitely shouldn't hurt like that -- the hurt should be more like serious fatigue pain than localized pain.

One thing that does come to mind is whether you are going out too fast. I run about your pace and in my best and most disciplined marathon, I ran the first 5 miles at almost a 12 minute mile pace, improving the pace over the next 15 miles and then hanging on for the last 6. I finished with a 4:18 and a negative split. I know that if I went out too fast, all those little aches and pains that I try to keep at bay by moderating my pace might come to the fore at the end.
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [FeS] [ In reply to ]
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Ditto checking the bike fit. Mine was all out of whack and causing a HOST of issues---to where I had to take almost a whole week completely off of running. Got all that fixed and things are back to normal.

Also, what's your fueling during the marathon like? You're having issues around the "wall". And, when you truly hit the wall, it SUCKS.

Check your bike fit, check your running shoes, check with your doc. Good luck!
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Re: Massive Marathon Pain - normal? [Nemostrin] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the input! My IMLP back pain was an anomoly, I don't get back pain from my bike and I had woken up on race day with back pain that hurt me all day.

I am looking forward to seeing what the sports dr. will say.

As for my other run times: 5k around 25 mins, 13.1 miles under 2 hours - around 1:50 something & feeling good - like I was pushing it, but not close to the edge.
This most recent marathon (sept. 13th) I was at 2:22 at the half way point, I was trying to do my "slow easy run" pace. Finished in 5:34.
IM WI '06 half way point was 2:43, IMLP half way point was around the same - maybe 2:45?
IM WI total time was 6:35, IMLP total time was 6:45.

Over last winter I was running around 30 miles per week with a 10 mile long run with no problems, and running about 4-5 days per week, until I ramped up to the 50 for IM training, doing a long weekend run and a long-ish mid-week run of roughly 8-10 miles.

My eventual goal is to do this without this kind of pain. I do these to have fun and get challenged, not be tortured. :)
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