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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Here is my issue in the pro race when money is involved. If there is any advantage in riding "X" distance behind another rider, it shouldn't be allowed...period.

There are 'draft legal' races.

There are 'non-drafting' races.

Period...nothing in between.

It is proven that there is an advantage when riding 10m (front to front)...so why allow it??? Whether you are saving 30% (on someone's wheel), or saving 10% (back a bit more)....you are getting an advantage and last time I checked, that was drafting and isn't allowed.

I mean come on, how many pros are riding in one race? 30, 50, maybe 80 in some.

Multiple loop course....close them off and give a separate lane for them. Point is, that if a race is giving away 50k, 75k, 500k in prize money...the race should be run in a way that is clean.

+++++++++

Scott's post was gutsy and no doubt it will get a lot of attention....but this issue NEEDS to be addressed. Kona, Florida, Clearwater, Canada, wherever....it goes on everywhere and needs to stop.

Whatever the rule is, the boundary will be pushed.....make the zone bigger and get more officials out there.

FWIW - At IMCDA, I saw 2 motorcycles...the whole ride.

BB
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Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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They pack so many people on the course and such large groups form that if you do get passed, legally you'd have to drop back to T1 and start over again. :0
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev,

Could it be that too many people are riding to a formula, to watts or to HR? They have all heard the power experts on here talking about how bad it is to spike the power, or cap the HR etc . . .We rode to nothing years ago. If you wanted to drop someone or make a move - you got out of the saddle and/or jumped on it for 3 - 4 minutes. Job done. Or you just backed off.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck, if they are riding to their wattage formula, they will see that they are doing 100 W less in the peleton and even 4 bike lengths back probably 20W less!!!
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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"a duathlon outside of Winston-Salem (won by Slowtwitcher Brian Stover)"

Wait, you are going to compare a fat guys fun run to IMC? If it was won by Stover, it couldn't have been that hard! :)
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [CURRY] [ In reply to ]
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Scott, I appreciate the reason for your post and I share the frustration. I must say, before you start naming names that you "witnessed" in the top ten being legal, be sure the names you left out weren't drafting.

There is no insult that would effect me more than being an assumed drafter. Considering I never saw you on the bike till you came by me at mile 95 (when I was finally able to drop the group and get a minute gap). Before that point I was letting those guys do there game while watching at a distance. I personally had 3 guys get "warnings" for not passing me in time on Richter and following too close. I believe if you asked anyone in that group, and all of your friends on the course giving splits, they would say that I rode fair and legal, and probably did too much work up front.

I thought you had a great race, and showed heart on the run. If you think I cheated please email me directly and we can chat. This is what I do for a living, and the last thing I need after a hard day at the office, is to be lumped into what I hate the most.

Tired- Matt Lieto

-Matt Lieto
Last edited by: justhavefun: Aug 26, 08 9:35
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [M~] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
. I note that at IMUSA, that the drafting issues are less - as the first 40K are reasonably challenging - long up-hill, then a downhill that scares the be-jesus out of most and has many riding the brakes - after that it's typically no problem for the remaining 120K.

lol, none of what you describe at LP is what I experienced when I raced it. Perhaps for the FOP folks it weeds itself out, but the MOP folks, it was a draftfest.
I came out of the water in 1:01 and had a 5:36 bike in LP.........Spent much of the day looking up the road at a group of 12 who
were taking pulls and pointing out things in the road.

Draft marshal came by and gave two penalties - at least that's how many stopped at the next penalty tent - lost sight of them heading up White Face - I guess it helps to have fresh legs on that section!
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Blakebeck] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Point is, that if a race is giving away 50k, 75k, 500k in prize money...the race should be run in a way that is clean.

Uhhh - what sport are we talking about now? That prize purse sure ain't for triathlon!


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [justhavefun] [ In reply to ]
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Scott, I appreciate the reason for your post and I share the frustration. I must say, before you start naming names that you "witnessed" in the top ten being legal, be sure the names you left out weren't drafting.

Agreed. It's a slippery slope.

However, this is a situation that has been allowed to drift now for many years and no one, not RD's, not offcials and not athletes wants to do anything other than what is being done about it. We are all to blame
.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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this is going to be a great thread.

The OP shows he's Ballsy and pulls no punches. Kudos.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Time to start the cameras rolling on these people then there is no dispute.I have always said(during those brief few years when my opinion meant anything)that those busted for repeated drafting in an IM should lose their ability to claim an Hawaii spot.Repeat offenders(and there are many)are put on a register and if they continually draft in M races then they are banned from competing in future events.Call me the draft nazi but lets get rid of those who draft in every race they do.

.
Last edited by: Ultra-tri-guy: Aug 26, 08 8:56
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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Make the courses tough and problem is solved.

MissP, my better half did IM Lanzarote earlier this year. It was a mass start race, even for the Pros, and she rode solo almost the whole way for 112 miles!





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Steve, every race I start, i talk to the race officials and am pretty upfront with the fact I think they don't call enough penalties and are doing a dis-service to the athletes. This often makes me a target, but since I know i am legal, it hasn't hurt me yet.

2 years ago at Canada the official I had this conversation with pre-race, no exaggeration, rode his moto directly across from me the ENTIRE way from Oliver to OSOYOOS. He actually sacrificed the legality of the race up the road, to try and prove a point to me. Didn't make me feel that awesome to say the least.

WE are not all to blame, WE are not all speaking up. I do appreciate the fact that we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

-Matt Lieto
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [justhavefun] [ In reply to ]
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we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

The AG situation is more challenging. However, for the Pros - you guys can speak up and at least put some ideas on the table. But I have sat through enough pre-race pro meetings over the years, and it always seems like a bit of a love-in at a commune. It's always high-fiving-and-hows-the-training-going. Rarely are the harder issues ever brought up and addressed and talked through. To be honest, pre-race meetings are not the place to be having these sorts of discussions, but it's the only time that enough key people are all in one room at one time. I am not a big union guy, but something does need to be done so that RD's and Pros can meet and start to talk. There is more on the line here than just the rules. For example, if I was still sitting in that room ( and sometimes by chance, I am, but I have no voice these days), I would want to know why the prize purses are the same as they were 20 years ago?



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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When I make the comment that pretty much anyone can do an IM with a 17 hour cutoff, I get myself in trouble.
Pretty easy if one just paces themselves and eats correctly. This is one reason I am back to doing Oly distance stuff.
There is none of this I can get a tattoo junk.. You just have to race your ass off to be competitive.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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IMC, IMAZ and CDA had 75k in prize money. Kona has a lot....

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
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http://www.teambbmc.com
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
For example, if I was still sitting in that room ( and sometimes by chance, I am, but I have no voice these days), I would want to know why the prize purses are the same as they were 20 years ago?

YES...thank you Steve!
-

Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty easy to do an Oly within the usual cutoff too, and you don't even have to pay any attention to all that complicated nutrition stuff. Seems to me that in IM you have to 'race your ass off' to be competitive too.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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When I make the comment that pretty much anyone can do an IM with a 17 hour cutoff, I get myself in trouble.
Pretty easy if one just paces themselves and eats correctly.


Bloody hell, the water boy wrote something I agree with.

Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev how bout 1k penalty loops.........did they not have that back in like Nice or one of the other 4/120/30 races, maybe at there worlds.

I would love to see that. We should e-mail Graham.

tfun~
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Ultra-tri-guy] [ In reply to ]
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I agree - athletes race for respect (self respect, and respect from competitors). If draft marshalls were all equipped with cheap small video cameras, they could simply video athletes that are drafting and then during the award ceremonies have a little video in the corner that highlights the cheaters - then of course everyone could shame them for cheating. I agree with Fleck about AG's - but share Scott's concern with the pro ranks. I was watching the race from the race updates at home and was really proud of the work that Rhodes did out there on his own. Trying to sit on someone's wheel is shameful during a race. Some guys just dont care I guess and will do anything to get ahead.

Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [justhavefun] [ In reply to ]
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WE are not all to blame, WE are not all speaking up. I do appreciate the fact that we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

I completely agree. I have no issue with playing within the rules and staying your distance accordingly. We all need to say more about the flagrant violations. I guess I have been relatively insulated for the past many years, doing local racing and IMLP which might have a few packs where the geography results on way too many riders stuffed into a narrow out and back, but on the balance it is much cleaner. Even Kona is much cleaner than the road down the Richter at IMC.

In the end, it is up to us athletes to "play fair" and make an attempt to obey the spirit of the rules. This is what I have the biggest beef with. More age groupers need to speak up when these packs form. WE (I am using the collective) all have a choice. We can choose to be the generally honest guy that still steal the $100 bill that is left on the cafeteria table when no one is looking knowing that a colleague left it there, or we can be the guy that takes it to the reception saying that money was left by "someone in the cafeteria"...WHICH GUY DO YOU WANT TO BE?

Do you want to be the guy that took something that someone else rightfully earned, or do you want to go earn the cash yourself and return what you found to the owner?

As I tell the kids that I coach in XC skiing, what separates a good and great athlete is what you do when no one is looking...be it coaches, officials, parents etc etc.

I have no beef with following legally and getting the legal benefit of the reduced draft. It is the blatant stuff that is out of hand.

Dev
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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How about public shaming?
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Lazy Ben] [ In reply to ]
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Be careful now. Smile

Dave

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