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women-specific weight training Q
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Hey everyone-- men, please reply too if you can help!

I know the weight lifting issue is huge and hairy over in the Tri Forum. But I want to bring it up here in the estrogen-tinged The Womens.... So TTB and other mainstream tri books advocate weight lifting--- for females especially--- and my (female, USAT) coach for the past two seasons had me doing some weight sessions. I don't mind it, but did not LOVE it either. Now I am in a better gym with better equipment so am rethinking it all. I developed a midline abdominal hernia at some point during my tri training so I had that fixed last year and dropped the weight lifting during the healing.

But overall, I dropped weight training (was only doing it 1-2 x a week) because it WIPED me OUT! High reps, low weight, or the lift to failure. Either way it seemed to wear me down so much (when also doing the 8-15 hours of training per week that is)

No coach this year. Just me and a Matt F. plan for a couple of HIMs. No weight lifting on his plan (a customizable one from Tri mag)

Okay recently I have gone to yoga about 6 times. 1-2 times a week for Bikram Yoga, 1.5 hours in a 105 degree room. I actually like it. (thought it would be too touchy-feely, hey-wow, namaste type of thing but I like that the instructor sticks to a script. It definitely gets the HR up there in some of the poses). So I figured the yoga is strength and stretching together.

But, it wipes me out TOO! It kicks my butt recovery-wise. Drink a lot after and all day, eat within 30 min etc etc....

I am the one who started the hypothyroidism thread, so maybe my low thyroid is still all part of the problem... so I thought I would just ring up my ST gal friends and compare notes about it.

Also--- help me figure out this Weight to Strength ratio thing... is that just a theoretical ideal or is there actaully a number one calculates? I "get it" that you want to be as strong as you can be at an ideal weight (to not haul excess pounds along, but still be strong). I weigh 130 #, am 5'6". I think I am an athletic build (broad shoulders, small waist, broad hips, long torso ((Gap "Curvy Jeans" is my fit type, if that helps)). But I think I am scrawny and lumpy... terrible climber. Sticks for wrists and ankles but don't really muscle up much. And I am 48 so the hormones "they are a-changin' ..."

And osteoporosis is huge in my family... I think the running and general fitness will curb that, but weight lifting is recommended to prevent it (albeit probably is just a general recommendation for joe-average females).

Summary: weights, yoga, recovery from these; weight to strength ratio? Is weight lifting worth it??

The collective wisdom here at ST is pretty awesome! Thanks-
C
Last edited by: PBJ: Mar 10, 08 15:13
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [PBJ] [ In reply to ]
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Lifting can really help with prevention and treatment of osteoporosis. Running can build bone density too, as it's weight-bearing.

Maybe you could lift less/lower intensity... might be worth it if you think you have a chance of developing bone issues.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [PBJ] [ In reply to ]
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I too had trouble recovering when I tried to integrate resistance training with tri. My try training is now interrupted due to a couple years of injury and surgery. When I stopped tri training, I started doing workouts provided at coreperformance.com.

They have a book detailing a core perforance workout plan for endurance athletes. Their website provides plans for many different sports and lifestyle levels.

The programs are comprehensive, and include "prehab", movement prep (active stretching), plyometric, movement skills, strength and regeneration (self massage and static stretching).

I have found it to be a very balanced and effective program for me. You can try it out for free for three weeks at the website.
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [PBJ] [ In reply to ]
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Personally, I think weight training is important, because it enables a person to retain some muscle, even build muscle through the aging process as muscle tissue goes on a decline. It strengthens bones, keeps the body nimble, and burns fat.

Out of all the types of athletes I see, the women who weight train look the best. Their bodies are "tighter", more toned and they look youthful. Some older endurance athletes I see look emaciated and much older than they really are (from sun, and long distance running, etc, catabolizes muscle).

Surly there is a balance in the middle.

In terms of your former program, I do not agree with "training to failure" and do not necessarily agree with high reps all the time. I like to stay around 8-12 reps because that does build muscle and it doesn't wear me out, or sabatoge other training.

In your case, I think you are already getting enough repetition in your tri training; you do not need to go to failure. In addition to that, I think 6 reps with heavy weight, to 10 reps with moderately heavy weight, would be all you need to achieve strength, develop or maintain muscle tissue, and look/feel good (in consideration of your tri training). Keep your time between sets "short" like 30 seconds and you will get results.

As for yoga, I think yoga is very good. It does build strength and lengthens out tissues, which so many triathletes would benefit from. A good question for you is: what is your limiter? You could use weights and/or yoga to address those limiters. (For example, a limiter for me is tight body. So, yoga enables me to lengthen out, which in turn enables me to run and move better.)

Overall, I feel very good with weights in my own training, particularly training with them during this time of year. I look a lot better, have better posture and feel strong. Yoga is what keeps me from "breaking", i do a little of that everyday. A little bit of both of these things goes a long way, in my opinion.

In your situation, i encourage you to think about your limiter. What would help you most?
Also, in race season, I’m more inclined to tell you to focus on yoga, and off season, weights AND yoga (just in smaller bits of each).

Hope this helps,
Kitty
Last edited by: kittycat: Mar 10, 08 12:23
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [PBJ] [ In reply to ]
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Male answering -- Resume - 23 years coaching swimming - including many females - many years ago came to the conclusion that Males and Females are different (shock, I know) - but have done much research (because I wanted to help my female athletes reach thier potential) and have great success implementing a few training differances (between Males and females)

First of all - Unless you do steriods - you will NOT get big bulky muscles - so let go of that concern - It won't happen.

I am not going to repeat what others have already said -- they gave good advice -- no need to lift to failure - no need to do a bunch of high reps. etc. etc.

The Basics: Set up a four week schedule - mix the four week schedule into your tri training schedule. One week is your "big lift week" - lift three times, Two weeks are your Medium Lift Weeks - lift twice, one week is your easy lift week - lift once.

Big Lift week - Aim for three sets 8 to 10 -- note: Lift enough weight that you can barely finish the last rep. (so when aiming for 10 reps - the first time you can lift the weight 10 times (if you lifted to failure you might have made 14) - typically, females do not lift enough weight - put enough weight on there to really work!!

Take enough time in the workout to do your whole body -- To save time - set up a circuit - try to lift opposing muscle groups - for example: Quad extentions, then immediately go to Hamstring curls - go back and forth - so while resting your quads you are working your hamstrings and vice versa. When doing major multiple muscle groups like Squats or leg presses - do another major muscle group like bench press - example: do 12 reps leg press, get up and go over to the bench press and do 10 reps -- that will keep our heart rate up - and cut your lifting time since you won't be sitting there on the machine resting.

Medium Lift - two times a week - aim for three sets 10 to 12 reps (little bit less weight that big lift week)

Easy lift - one time a week - aim for Two sets of 12 to 15 reps (little bit less weight)

Variation will help increase muscle adaptation.

Recovery - you mentioned you have recovery problems after lifting -- odds are - this is nutrition related -- With-in 1 hour - preferably with in 30 minutes - EAT !!!

Try to get at least 20 grams of protein in whatever you are eating -- I know that Soy is popular - and may work - but for most people Whey protein absorbs faster. Fastest absorbing protein is egg protein - but that comes with a lot of fat -- Which may or may not be a bad thing -- Many thin people would benefit from egg protein to help increase muscle mass and give thier body the fat fuel that it needs.

Drink a lot of water - I have seen people who are great at keeping thier hydration up while biking and running and forget to drink while lifting and swimming. Your body needs to stay hydrated. So drink before, during and after lifting.

Stretch after lifting - including upper body. I used to love to lift hard than go to Yoga - great workout - unfortunately since the birth of my kid - I am short on time and had to cut out the Yoga (My kid is worth it)

note: Stretch warm - meaning immediately after your workout - and if you workout in a really cold gym - go stretch in the dry sauna.

If you still have problems with recovery -- you may be one of the few people who have problems breaking down protein -- Go buy some brach chain amino acids (pill form) and take those after lifting. Basiclly all Branch chain amino acids are partially digested protein - i.e. that is what protein breaks down into for your body to use. It is NOT a steriod, NOT illegal and will NOT make you bulk up and look like a body builder.

Hope that helps
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [PBJ] [ In reply to ]
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I only have a minute but wanted to jump in and see if you have checked out any of the Cross Fit classes (if they have them in your area). The legit cross fit classes are essentially a combination of weight lifting moves (think russia circa 1980's type lifting equipement like kettle ball) and gymnastics and the goal is to get you both strong and lean so they do a really good job of keeping you lifting the right amount of weight. There are also a lot of exercises like pullups, pushups, etc so you use your own body weight as the weight. The setup is a class setting with one instructor who will create a set for the day that everyone then does together so it's almost like personal training only with a few more people. I personally hate lifting and I've really enjoyed this class thus far. I'm only going 1x week for about the last 6-8 weeks and have found that it has made a HUGE difference in my strength and tightened up my core significantly. Last weekend was the first outside ride of the year and I noticed an immense difference from where I was this time last year. Also, for what it's worth, the classes at cross fit are so different from what I do for tri training that I really relish the break in routine. I really recommend checking it out. I do find though that 24 hours after the class I'm pretty whipped out so I try to plan my week training schedule accordingly (typically going to yoga and not doing anything else more tiresome then a 90-120 minute ride or so the next day).


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Re: women-specific weight training Q [Sparticus] [ In reply to ]
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Sparticus, I wanted some clarification with your suggestion, are you saying I should do a "circuit" type routine, so I'm hitting all muscles on that four week roatation?

I've been doing back / bis & abs; chest / tris / shoulders & abs; legs & abs per week but now that I'm increasing tri training it's getting to be too much.

tnx.
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [Sparticus] [ In reply to ]
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Sparticus - Since you worked with swimmers - I am wondering how you schedule up a week in terms of alternating the swimming and the strength training. Do you have them do it on opposing days; or, one kind of training immediately followed by the other?

I was doing a regime for the past 2 months that is focused on core strengthening. It was a boot camp very early in the morning. So I'd experiment doing different aerobic training immediately afterwards, or later in the day. Here's what I found: I could RUN afterwards, just fine. (Gordo's "Going Long" says be careful running after doing strength training; but I was fine...) But, SWIMMING was very difficult. It felt like all that overloading of my core muscles just took away my hip drive. My swimming form went to crap.

I agree with the OP, that the strength training I tried this time around, has toasted me more than I expected. (And I'm very consistent about recovery, hydrating, eating, stretching, etc. etc., so I don't think that was it.) I tend to have fewer injuries, though, when I'm doing strength training, so I'd like to keep it in my week, just obviously something more mellow than the boot camp I was doing. And there is still the question of figuring out when to schedule it in so that it doesn't compromise my downstream aerobic workouts.
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [cindyloohoo] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, Circuit that works all mucsle groups each time you lift.

So lifting upper and lower body all in one workout. Week 1 - three times (MWF) Week 2 - two times (T,TH), Week 3 - two times (T, TH), week 4 - one time (W)

The variation does help increase muscle adaptation - and keeps you from getting bored - and help you fit it in with Tri Training (i.e. Cardio) i.e. - you can bike, run, swim more on the weeks you lift less. Big lift weeks gives you an excuse to take some time off on long run and long bike.
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [Oleander] [ In reply to ]
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Answer is very athlete dependent - meaning what works for one will not work for another.

Some rules of thumb to follow - Never follow one hard workout with another hard workout - example: You have a hard run but then do an easy bike for recovery = good, Hard run followed by hard bike = injury.

Same with lifting - Hard lift followed by an easy swim = good - in fact - real good for most people - cool water and easy swimming will aid in recovery. Do NOT swim if you lose stroke form - do not want to burn sloppy bad stroke into muscle memory - what is good is to simply do drills for recovery in the water - because you are tired you have to focus even more on swimming a good stroke.

Hopefully that answered your question.

For those who "triple up" -- do one activity hard, two easy - always have a focus and not just "go through the motions" - that focus activity is what you are concentrating on getting better at - the others are for holding steady until it is thier turn to be the focus activity.
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [PBJ] [ In reply to ]
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no doubt, weight training will tired you out when you are already doing a lot of tri training. my coach only has me do core work (back, abs and hips) and some of my old physical therapy strengthening for my knees. but no bench press, leg press, squats, dips etc. none of the stuff that really taxes the muscles i specifically use in training. his reasoning, is that the lifting will tire my muscles during the periods between my training sessions, and make the training less effective since i will inevitably be doing too many workouts sore. Being sore, and very sore, the majority of the time, is asking for an injury. however, i am naturally have pretty lean muscle - not scrawny, or chunky.

basically, if you can do some lifting (emphasis on some, not tons) without it effecting your training, go for it. BUT if it is in any way impacting your training (too sore to finish workouts, too tired of workin out out to want to do your next one, not having time for RB or S workouts) then skip it. RBS will make you faster more than the lifting will. I also incorporate some strenth-like work in all three of the sports. I do short/fast hill repeats on the bike, stairs on the run, and 50m intervals in the pool. Those build muscle as well that is sport specific.

for osteoperosis, the training you are doing is helping that - especially the running. maybe add a little upper body lifting for your arms and back.



"What am I on? I'm on my bike busting my ass for six hours a day. What are YOU on?" - Lance Armstrong
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [Sparticus] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Try to get at least 20 grams of protein in whatever you are eating -- I know that Soy is popular - and may work - but for most people Whey protein absorbs faster. Fastest absorbing protein is egg protein - but that comes with a lot of fat -- Which may or may not be a bad thing -- Many thin people would benefit from egg protein to help increase muscle mass and give thier body the fat fuel that it needs.[/quote]
In my Nutrition for Sports and Exercise class, we learned that you should eat protein BEFORE lifting. For muscle tissue to heal it needs circulating amino acids and protein takes "awhile" to break down into those amino acids... if you eat before, amino acids are already in the blood.

Particularly for men who want to really build muscle, as testosterone peaks during/after the workout and that is needed for muscle building too - so if the amino acids are already available you will build muscle faster than if eating after the workout and having to wait for the protein --> amino acids


maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Try to get at least 20 grams of protein in whatever you are eating -- I know that Soy is popular - and may work - but for most people Whey protein absorbs faster. Fastest absorbing protein is egg protein - but that comes with a lot of fat -- Which may or may not be a bad thing -- Many thin people would benefit from egg protein to help increase muscle mass and give thier body the fat fuel that it needs.[/quote]
In my Nutrition for Sports and Exercise class, we learned that you should eat protein BEFORE lifting. For muscle tissue to heal it needs circulating amino acids and protein takes "awhile" to break down into those amino acids... if you eat before, amino acids are already in the blood.

Particularly for men who want to really build muscle, as testosterone peaks during/after the workout and that is needed for muscle building too - so if the amino acids are already available you will build muscle faster than if eating after the workout and having to wait for the protein --> amino acids

True statement - my problem is eating that protien before my workout causes either cramping and or nausia. Even something as simple as a promax bar or drinking a protein shake. Several of the athletes I have coached have made the same statement. They feel great eating a power bar - feel like crap if eating a powerbar protein bar.

Now have taken lower levels of protein without problems - say a zone bar with 8 grams of protein.

Anyway - this is all my opinion based on my personal expirience i.e. since it makes me ill to eat protein before a hard workout - I feel better eating after a workout.... Therefore try it and see what works for you. :-)
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [lilpups] [ In reply to ]
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I will 2nd Crossfit as a great way to strength train. I hate going to the gym for reps, but look forward to Crossfit as it is always different.

I will also 2nd taken the branched chain amino acid pills to help with recover. When I got in to the meet of my Ironman training last year I was having trouble that I was too sore from strength training to be at 100% for my hard tri workouts. I have started taking these after hard workouts http://www.cytosport.com/...ct.aspx?ProductID=10 and I get less sore and recover much more quickly
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [Sparticus] [ In reply to ]
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I like cliff bars before workouts. Those have 10g of protein in them.

I don't lift though... I just swim (well not right now, sniff sniff) bike run

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [PBJ] [ In reply to ]
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Do the lifting or the closest thing to it that you enjoy. I miss lifting, I used to do it 3xweek a la Joe Friel (tri training bible) - lots of low weight reps (i.e.: 5x20 squats), building the weight up for 6-10 weeks, then two to three weeks of low reps high weight (max strength phase), then repeat. It made a huge difference to my swimming, hill running and riding. It's not convenient for me to do it now, but I will go back to it when I can. I haven't lifted since K was born, then I got the hypothryoid like you sista... so I bet it will knock me out like it does for you. Hmm. The more I think about the more I want to say give it a break. Maybe do one of the yoga or the weights, but not both. It just sounds like a lot of time and effort on top of SBR... See if you feel any better. Either that or make sure you are spacing enough recovery time between all your workouts.

AP

PS: The hot yoga sounds yuck to me, but I am also dealing with the start of menopause and those hot flashes are killing me. Give me yoga in the snow, now we're talking,... lol.

------------------------
"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: women-specific weight training Q [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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Sparticus and AP--
I will reply after work... am not ignoring you all--- just been crazy busy.
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