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Time difference Sleeveless vs Full Suit
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Curious if there is any tests out there showing the time savings wearing a full suit compared to a sleeveless specifically half and full ironman distance races. I have an Orca sleeveless but am looking at the De Soto T1. Thanks.
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Re: Time difference Sleeveless vs Full Suit [mb] [ In reply to ]
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we tested that exhaustively at QR, tho i can't lay my hands on any of it right now, and i don't think we published anything other than in our own literature.

a rule of thumb is that a sleeveless will give you 75% of what a fullsuit will give you. in other words, if you'll get 8 sec per 100m of extra speed out of a fullsuit, you'll get 6 sec out of a longjohn.

there is more to the equation when you add that you're considering a T1. the numbers i give you above refer to just raw speed over, say, a 200m swim. where the T1 gives you an extra boost over any other fullsuit is later in the swim. if you were to be able to monitor your cadence in the water (and there is a device for that, as a matter of fact), you'd see that your cadence (i.e., stroke rate) would be considerably slower in a standard full than in a T1 or other good 2pc wetsuit (assuming there was another good 2pc wetsuit available). the lower stroke rate = slower speed.

but that's another issue, separate from what you asked, so i'll leave it there.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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these numbers seem high... [ In reply to ]
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so does it mean the sleeveless is slower than no wetsuit at all?

I remember that the most optimistic speed increase by a brand, my 4'' per 100m on average. some slower swimmers will see more, some faster swimmers will see less.

does it suggest something like 10'' for a full compare to no wetsuit?

if this is the case you should mention that this would be only for very slow swimmers.
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Monitor cadence in the water? [ In reply to ]
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if you were to be able to monitor your cadence in the water (and there is a device for that, as a matter of fact),


I've never encountered a swim cadence monitor. Who makes it, where to buy, how many $$$$'s?

thanks,

Bill
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cadence monitor [ In reply to ]
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there is one indeed made by speedo...

however, that's a joke isn't it?? cadence monitor?
what about counting your strokes?

you should ALWAYS do that! let's say you go for
10x200, every 2nd 200 count the number of stroke for the 1st and 3rd 50, and make sure that the number does not drop. forces you to focus on technique, long slow strokes etc...really good to keep the focus on endurance sets.

can do the same thing on fast sets to make sure you don't start swimming ugly...with a speedo cadence monitor, you are not going to check your watch under water, and once you get to the whole you should focus on recovery, not on cadence.
if you check the number of strokes at home, the feedback is too late...if you added 2 strokes per 50 for half the set, you have wasted your time.
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Re: these numbers seem high... [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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perhaps i didn't state it clearly. let us say that with a fullsuit you get an EXTRA 8 seconds of speed over 100m, versus swimming with no wetsuit at all. in other words, you were swimming bare-skinned at a clip of 1:30 per 100m, and then you put on your fullsuit and you start swimming these 100s in 1:22. if you put on a longjohn INSTEAD of a fullsuit, you'll start swimming them in 1:24.

i use these numbers as examples. the LEAST advantage i ever saw a fellow get out of a fullsuit was 4sec per 100m, and the MOST i ever saw was 15sec over 100m. the better swimmer you are, the less advantage you'll get. in these two cases i mention, if the wearers would've used a longjohn (sleeveless) suit in place of the fullsuit, they'd still have gone faster vs no wetsuit, but probably 3sec and 11-12sec respectively.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: cadence monitor [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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the cadence meter i was thinking of is called aquapacer (aquapacer.com). they're about $100.

i wasn't talking about counting strokes--stroke length--but considering the rate of your turnover. yes, sure, you want to make sure you don't clip your stroke, and number of strokes per lap is important. but your speed is going to go way down if your ability to keep up your rate of turnover is impinged upon by a restrictive wetsuit. something like an aquapacer is a good way to judge that. when i do a (personal) wetsuit evaluation i'll stick this thing on and swim 500m or so, and sure i'll consider the clock, but i'll also consider stroke rate in the latter stages of the swim.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Time difference Sleeveless vs Full Suit [mb] [ In reply to ]
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Back in 1995 I was not a full-suit convert until Keith Simmons of (then) Ironman wetsuits had me try one of theirs. He tutored me on how to get the suit on correctly (SUPER important) and I performed an informal test using a heart rate monitor and a stop watch on an Ironman distance swim course in open water. The results were pretty compelling, I was saving minutes with the full suit over the long john style. Since then I haven't swam in anything else except a full suit. I have an Aquaman Bionik and Quintana Roo Super Full, both Awesome. I would like to try a two piece such as Desoto T1, but have no so far. I definately recommend a full suit and they are almost all of what we sell now.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Heat issues [ In reply to ]
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Has anyone done any homework on the heat considerations of using a full suit in hot weather? I generally use my sleeveless wetsuit for St. Anthony's since the water is always near the legal limit and I fight the heat all day after I get out of the water. I get very warm in my full suit in that water. I always cook on the run.

I don't use my full wetsuit in that race, but I really have no idea whether that is the right approach. It is easy to give back a minute or two on the run if you are too hot.
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Re: Heat issues [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]
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I despise cold water so much I have never had an issue with this. I have heard this concerned voiced but I tell customers it is unlikely to be a problem. Does anyone have further information on this?

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Whadayamean joke? [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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If there's a toy available to measure something, then any triathlete worth his or her salt ought to be salivating over it, no? Especially if it's light and/or aero?

Come on, Francois...


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Re: cadence monitor [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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however, that's a joke isn't it?? cadence monitor?
what about counting your strokes?
  1. Open water swims.
  2. What is my cadence when I am NOT thinking about my cadence?
  3. Counting strokes and dividing by time gets challenging during long continuous swims.
  4. Keeping track of both lengths and strokes per length sometimes exceeds my mental capacity!


I don't think I'ld spend $100 on one, but one would be useful at times.

-Bill
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Re: cadence monitor [bamsphd] [ In reply to ]
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about heat, definetly a concern depending on time of year and time of day and individual issues. If you hit the bike dehydrated, youre going to be toast the rest of the day. When racing in fresh water, does anyone consciously drink water to stave off thirst? Cause i know i do. Its kind of gross thinking about it but so is peeing while riding my bike during a race, the trick is dont think about it.

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Re: cadence monitor [jeremyb] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]When racing in fresh water, does anyone consciously drink water to stave off thirst? Cause i know i do. Its kind of gross thinking about it but so is peeing while riding my bike during a race, the trick is dont think about it.[/reply]

LOL. Very True. Personally, I think that the fastest and best way to get faster in the water is not a wetsuit, but better stroke technique. But the T1 is awsome.
Last edited by: bigd: Dec 30, 02 17:21
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Re: Time difference Sleeveless vs Full Suit [mb] [ In reply to ]
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I'm actually the one who did the swim pool tests for QR back in the olden days, and the difference between the long john and the full was about 1 to 1 1/2 seconds per hundred meters(short course). The advantages were a bigger arm in the fullsuit, which provided a larger pulling surface, and the closing off of the entire suit from flowing water. Of course different styles and body types will have different results, but two of us who were pretty good swimmers got the same results. I think that the new two piece suits will have even more of an advantage because of the lessened pull on the shoulder area.....
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Re: Whadayamean joke? I got one... [ In reply to ]
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1. a tool that hits you on the head when your swim stroke sucks

2. a bike computer that computes your Cx when you ride and optimizes Cx on the fly depending on morphology

3. a watch with captors measuring your electrolyte balance, sugar levels while you train/race and beeps to tell you what to drink or eat.

4. a robot that tells you that this extra beer is really too much even though it's NY's eve :-)

have fun tomorrow, be safe out on the road,
don't drink and drive (don't drink..)
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