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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [tri-ski] [ In reply to ]
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the 1.5:1 ratio is BS IMO. I log it as the same time. Time spent, is time spent.

I also don't dink around riding outside, rarely coast and am always working, so I don't notice much of a difference. On the trainer I am really working. No long easy rides; I limit my time to 90-120' max, but do some intense intervals during that time. I can't imagine spending more than 2h on a trainer and see it as worthless. If I do longer stuff on the trainer I may do the following. 1h trainer + 30' run repeating 2-3 times and building intensity.

I look forward to riding on the trainer, because I can easily sit within the specific power range without distractions of stoplights, etc and the deviation from hills, etc. Also, I limit my time and total sessions so that I don't get mental burnout and therefore have much more productive trainer sessions: 2 sessions/week in the winter (3 if it really sucks outside), always keep 1 session/week during all weeks including summer.

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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [slugchowder] [ In reply to ]
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Coach Troy says an hour on the trainer is worth 80 minutes on the road. I hope he is right but I just count actual time.
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
from a physiological standpoint 10 min on the road and 10 min on the trainer everything being equal is equal.[/reply]

Well, that's exactly the question being debated. If everthing was equal, then there is no argument. The question whether or not cyclist spend more energy in 10 minutes on the trainer as opposed to 10 minutes outside. I think for most people, the intensity varies based on a number of factors.

The only way to know for sure is to use a power measuring device to compare your own indoor workout with your own outdoor workout. For any ONE individual, they may find that their indoor rides are consistently more work overall due to the constant power output. Other's may find that they do not work as hard indoors as outdoors and therfore the total work done indoors is LOWER.

I've talked with people who use power who have done such comparisons, and one finds his rides to be equal, and the other finds her rides to be less intense indoors.

You can't make the same assumption for everbody, but when a coach like Chris Carmichael, which is were I first read it, says that a 1 hour trainer ride can be substituted for a 1.5 hour outdoor ride, I think that probably reflects that for most of the athlete's he's worked with it's true.

If you really want the answer, you'll need to buy yourself a power meter, and then the question will be moot anyway.

Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Steel City Endurance Coaching


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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [tri-ski] [ In reply to ]
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I thought that was an interesting 'rule of thumb' when I read it too in the Triathlete Magazine, but I wouldn't trust it. There was nothing at all regarding how they came to that conclusion. It seems pretty arbirtary to me.

When doing the training log, I always just log what I did. Simple as that. I think problems arise when people start playing games translating one workout to another. Its apples and oranges. I remember a thread a while ago when someone asked how many miles they could log for 45 minutes of aquajogging. I found that ridiculous. Log it as 45 minutes of aquajogging.

A training log is useless unless it is accurate, so translating trainer time to road time is pointless.

I think of it also as saying, "Oh, I ran four miles today in the rain and wind uphill. That would be worth seven miles on a nice sunny day on flat terrain. I'll log it as seven miles." That proposition is absurd, just as absurd, in my mind, as logging trainer miles as anything other than trainer miles.




Proud Member of the Cervelo Mafia.
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [zone2] [ In reply to ]
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" "Oh, I ran four miles today in the rain and wind uphill. That would be worth seven miles on a nice sunny day on flat terrain. I'll log it as seven miles." That proposition is absurd, just as absurd, in my mind, as logging trainer miles as anything other than trainer miles. "

Really. So if I'm training this year for a 1/2 IM and it snows four inches the day before a long run and I go out for 2 hours, I get an average HR of 150 for my run, but I only ran 14 miles because the footing was so bad I should log that as a 14 miler. (My online training log primarily tracks mileage, not time)

Next year when I look at my prep for the same race and I want to replicate it, should I go out and run 14 miles at 150 bpm? No. I shouldn't. I should run 17 miles in about 2 hours because that's what got me the fitness that I had the year before. Not a 14 miler!

So, if I'm on a trainer this weekend and I ride for 1 1/2 hours at a good steady rhythm without stopping--what might I have to do on the road next year to replicate that session were I to go outside. (I don't have a power meter) Well, I'd better plan on a longer ride than 1 1/2 hours because there's stopping, slowing down, turning and worrying about cars when I'm on the road. It might take me 2 hours or 2:15 to exact the same training stress in an uncontrolled environment.

Training logs can have different purposes--I may use mine differently that you use yours. My log entries may make no sense to you and I really don't care what you're logging in yours. But that's not important.

My training log only needs to make sense to me. Yours only needs to make sense to you. You should log trainer miles as you see fit. Why do you care how someone else logs their miles?

We're not competing in a training log contest--
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [tri-ski] [ In reply to ]
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I was wondering if there's a difference between time spent on a trainer verses time on a spin bike. I feel the trainer gives a better workout myself.
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [bobcowin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I was wondering if there's a difference between time spent on a trainer verses time on a spin bike. I feel the trainer gives a better workout myself.

Yes, there are pretty significant differences. You want to spend as much time in the saddle of your race bike as you can -- even if that means it is parked in the training. Riding your race bike in the trainer will allow you to adjust to the seat, hold race position, gain or maintain flexibility in the aero position, get more comfortable on your bike, and prepare for being able to hit the road. Spin bikes have their place -- don't get me wrong -- their place is for spinning classes to break up the monotony of indoor riding. However, you cannot replicate the feel of the road bike on the trainer by using a spin bike.

The one exception may be the Cyclops stationary bike w/ the built-in power meter (cannot remember the name). It is highly adjustible and gives you the ability to monitor power. However, no matter how close you get, it is not your race bike.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Last edited by: JSA: Feb 5, 07 13:33
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [bobcowin] [ In reply to ]
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I think the spin bike is good in that it encourages a high cadence with a smooth pedal stroke because of the heavy fly wheel.

But like the previous poster said--it's not your bike.
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [cdanrun] [ In reply to ]
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Can't you just enter your actual distance/time and ADD a note stating what the weather conditions were that day instead of inflating your logs?

Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [slugchowder] [ In reply to ]
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"I can't imagine spending more than 2h on a trainer and see it as worthless."

-- I've heard/read this a number of times and don't get it. Do the same people who think this think that anything over 2 hours out on the road is also worthless? What's the difference they swear by?
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [thunderlegs] [ In reply to ]
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I see it as not worthwhile (at least for me) because is not necessary at this time of the year. IMO one is better off doing shorter, more focused training when required to be indoors, so that you improve fitness without trashing your head during the process. I know if I spend every weekend doing 5-6h rides on the trainer that I would be soooo burned out by race time. If your race requires you to do this type of training, then it is too early in the season for the region you live in. Time/perspective outdoors is much different than indoor training. Too many times, people get on the trainer and slog through a workout without goals and with an intensity that overall isn't challenging their fitness....thus unproductive or not worthwhile. I get outdoors whenever I can unless it is really nasty, and will often complement a solid 2-3h outdoor ride with some extra focused intervals on the trainer. Bottomline, I limit trainer time as much as possible (2/week in winter) so that my sessions are much more productive.

If you want to do 6h rides on your trainer, go for it. I am going to spend my time doing focused rides with harder intervals to elevate my FT so come springtime I will be much faster and have plenty of time for the long stuff. The rest of my time will be spent focusing on run volume/frequency and other limiters that are more appropriately addressed at this time of year. I guarantee I will be much fresher mentally come race time.

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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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how often does it equal out? Do you usally have to ride 1.5x more outdoors to get it to do so? ;)

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

http://www.aiatriathlon.com
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [Jorge M] [ In reply to ]
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"Can't you just enter your actual distance/time and ADD a note stating what the weather conditions were that day instead of inflating your logs? "

I do both. I'm not doing it to inflate my log. I'm thinking "What will I have to do to replicate this training next year if I ride outside?" That's my thought process and riding outside is my baseline.

Next year, when I look at my log I can look at my long rides and get an idea for how long I was riding without reading each entry to see if I was on a trainer or not.
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [slugchowder] [ In reply to ]
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I'd say there is a lot of room between 2 hours and 6 hours. The only reason that I can agree with for not doing longer sessions is the burnout factor, if it applies. Meaning different people are going to react in different ways, at different lengths of time - I just don't see why 2 hours seems to be thrown out as some magical number, especially when coupled with phyisiological benefits. I have earned significant improvements in my cycling and endurance through this winter with a lot of hours on the trainer - and no mental burnout. Time of year shouldn't apply to the question though as I'm wondering why folks seem to have a blanket rule "no trainer rides over 2hrs."
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [cdanrun] [ In reply to ]
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Don't even keep track of actual time and distance ... just record whatever you "think" you did. That's what I do. It's very liberating.

Just last week, for example, in one workout I ran 15.7 miles in 1:23:56. It was a new PR for me, and I'm stoked. I think I'll probably set a new PR sometime next week. =)

Using this method, my swim times and distances are just light years ahead of where they were when I was logging actual time swimming and actual distance covered.

I may actually write a book about this method and start my own coaching service.

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [thunderlegs] [ In reply to ]
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"...as I'm wondering why folks seem to have a blanket rule "no trainer rides over 2hrs."

I go over 2 hours all the time but it does seem like over 2 hours is when you really have to want it – especially if you have been doing a good interval workout for the prior 120 minutes. If the mental focus is not there it gets ugly real fast. That’s probably as good an explanation as there is.
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In Case of Keith Moon - Break This Glass
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [tri-ski] [ In reply to ]
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Trainers and treadmills are controlled environments so it is easier to focus your workout. However, IMO, trainers and spin classes are an extremely poor simulation of an outdoor environment. For example, when my spin instructor yells out that we're on a 12% grade and to "move up one gear" (I have NO idea what this means), everyone in the class stands up but their cadence doesn't change much from when they were doing sprints on the imaginary flat road. Granted, many of these sweaty folk have never been on a real road bike but, even I tend to cheat a little; not because I want to but it just feels better to move those pedals faster and I'm totally guessing what the grade would feel like in terms of resistance. In the great outdoors, it is impossible to cheat the hill (unless you are Floyd Landis). I have always been of the opinion that 1 hour on the trainer is worth maybe 45 minutes on the road -- the opposite of what Triathlete Mag is suggesting.

What really matters, in the end, is how well you can ride/run on a real road. If I can run 10mph on a treadmill, it doesn't do me much good if this only converts to 8mph on the road. I'll take a real world ride/run any day.

I guess I'd just like to see the reasoning behind this study. I tend to take many of these types of articles, especially the ones in Bicycling Magazine, with a grain of salt. These publishers have pressure to come up with fresh content every month so I think they're willing to throw out just about anything; regardless of how well it has been researched.
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [cdanrun] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, you are right, we aren't competing in a training log contest. And I can understand the rationale you have for how you do your log. I just think it is comparing apples and oranges. Trainer miles are different than road miles. Snow miles are different than sunny weather miles. And like I said before, a training log is useless unless it is reliable and consistent. So converting apples to oranges is problematic, at least I think so. But to each his own. You say tomatoe; I say tomatoe.




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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [zone2] [ In reply to ]
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A training log is useless unless it is accurate, so translating trainer time to road time is pointless.

But wouildn't not translating trainer time to road time make it useless when comparing workout to workout (or week to week).

First, I don't think comparing road to a trainer is necessarily comparing apples to oranges. Suppose I have scheduled a two hour "endurance" ride. (I recognize the definition of an "endurance" ride or Level XX or whatever varies.) I think a two hour "endurance" ride on the road is significantly comporable to a 1.5 hour ride on the trainer, assuming the 2:1.5 ratio I use is accurate.

In week one, I log 6 hours of "endurance" riding on the road. In week two, I actually ride 4.5 on the trainer. When reviewing the log, I'd ilke to be able to compare my training from week to week. If I only log 4.5 hours for week two, I won't know the weeks are comparable unless I delve deeper to see that the time spent in week two was on the trainer. It gets more difficult to do this when I ride a good mix of on the road and on the trainer. It makes it easier to monitor my training over time. And I'm not lying to myself, as I still indicate where the ride took place and whether it was on the road or the trainer.

That being said, I don't use the 2:1.5 conversion when doing intervals or repeats. I think those are closer to a one to one ration, as I'm less likely to coast or stop at signal lights when doing intervals on the road.
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [TripleThreat] [ In reply to ]
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I swam 300 yards in a pool of jello the other day...I read somewhere that a 300 yard jello swim is equivalent to a 600 yard pool swim. I recorded as much in my log.

It was a sweet workout.
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Re: bike trainer time vs road time [zone2] [ In reply to ]
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why not the simple solution and just log the damn hours as they are? people want to compare between years, so you look at the training log and it says, rode on trainer for 2h due to crappy conditions outside, and that's what it is. so the next year at that time it was nicer and you were able to get outside...good for you. these things even themselves out. complicating things by having to extrapolate how many hours that would be if you were on the road compared to indoors only makes it more difficult. i have no problem comparing logs over several years by logging the workout as it is.

however, for you more complicated people i have derived a mathematical formula that precisely converts trainer hours into road hours and vice versa.

T(r)= {T(t) * Abs(E - Ent)} + log[(x + R)\t] or

T(t) = {T(r) - log[(x + R)\t]}\Abs(E - Ent)

T(r): time (road equivalent); T(t): time (trainer equivalent); t: temperature in Kelvin; x: # of turns on trainer resistance unit; R: resistance setting on trainer (for fluid or outdoors use R=1); Abs: absolute value; E: emotional status (motivated 2, neutral 1, unmotivated 0); Ent: entertainment (nothing 0, music only 1, TV 2)

More accurate than the 1.5 x trainer time...

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Last edited by: slugchowder: Feb 6, 07 12:26
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