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Talent Scouts Sought
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I’ve touched on this subject in the past, but only in the abstract. Here’s a proposal for putting rubber to the road.

Having observed the world of elite Olympic distance racing up close and personal for the past four years, I am convinced the U.S. has the potential to develop a consistent stream of world-class triathletes. The people we seek exist; problem is, we have no working program for identifying those with the right stuff.

Right now, we tend to take whoever shows up on our doorstep. Sometimes that produces real quality (look no further than the current women’s team), and sometimes it doesn’t (check out the other gender). But I think there IS a way to change that, which is why I’m asking for your help.

In my view, the best candidates will share the following three characteristics:

1. The ability to swim REALLY fast. Not PRETTY fast - REALLY, REALLY fast. If they’ve hit one of the following targets at some time during their swim career, sit up and pay attention: WOMEN: 1:48 for 200 yard free, 2:02 for 200 meter free, 4:17 for 400 meter free, 4:46 for 500 free, 9:50 for 1000 free, or 16:30 for 1650 free. Example: Sheila Taormina hit 2:01 in the 200 meter free and 4:13 for the 400 meter free as she approached (at age 27) the 1996 Olympic games. MEN: 1:39 for 200 yard free, 3:54 for 400 meter free, 4:20 for 500 free, 9:00 for 1000 free, or 15:20 for 1650 free. Example: Andy Potts, now a member of the USAT resident team and a name you are going to hear a whole lot about in the next couple of years, swam 15:00 for the 1650 while at the U of Michigan in the late 1990’s.

2. The POTENTIAL to be a solid runner. This in turn involves issues like body type and the efficiency of one's natural running form. Good women distance runners generally have moderate to slim builds and fall in the 5'2" to 5'10" range, while men follow the same build and fall into the 5’5” to 6’0” spread. Exceptions exist, of course, but we need to play the percentages. NOTE: Taormina is at the bottom edge of the height range, at 5' 3" and 115 pounds while Becky Gibbs (a 10-time NCAA All-American swimmer at LSU) is at the top. A background in running will provide some guidance, but isn't a prerequisite. An in-person visit and workout will be important. Example: After finishing his swim career at Michigan, Potts went out for outdoor track; two months later, he ran a mile in 4:18.

3. The willingness to bust one's butt. Athletes who were not terrifically motivated, but succeeded in college on natural talent are unlikely candidates for success as elite triathletes.

Where do we find this type of athlete? That part is easy – they’ve already been recruited to major college swim programs. Here are 27 of the top programs in the country: Alabama, Arizona, Auburn, Brown, Cal Berkeley, UCLA, Cincinnati, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, Nevada Las Vegas, North Carolina, Northwestern, Penn State, Rutgers, South Methodist, Stanford, Southern California, Texas, Texas A&M, Villanova, Virginia, Wisconsin. And here’s where I need your help. I’d like to find a person to monitor each of these programs, and report back with tips on athletes who fit our profile.

Do you live in or near one of those campus towns? Or are you a graduate of one of those institutions and remain a big time fan of its teams? To be a good talent scout, you’ll have to attend some practices, talk to the coaches, tell them what you have in mind. Be sure to emphasize that you are only interested in athletes who have completed their collegiate eligibility – otherwise the coach might think of you as a rival. Of course, its perfectly o.k. to SCOUT those who still have eligibility remaining. And be sure to pick the coach's brain about candidates who may have graduated within the last five to seven years. Potts, for example, had been out of school for nearly three years when we “found” him.

In fact, without intending to do so, the forum has already started down this path. A couple of weeks ago, someone posted a note about a swimmer at the U of Michigan who had gone 23+ for the 50-meter free and 2:07 for 800 meters on the track. I followed that one up, and learned she was a sophomore named Tracy Egnatuk.

I checked with Tracy’s swim and run coaches and found she had not yet shown any aptitude for distance. Then I talked to one of her teammates from high school, and discovered Tracy actually did the Waterloo (MI) Triathlon last summer. An inspection of the results showed she finished third in the 17-19 age group with a time of 1:47 for the 0.5 mile swim, 16 mile bike, 5 mile run course. The women’s overall winner was Megan Smothergill, who was a good (but not great) swimmer in college and is a good (but not great) age group triathlete now. Megan outsplit Tracy by 2:30 in the water and ended up beating her by 14 minutes overall.

In other words, Tracy probably doesn’t have what we are looking for . . . but there will be others who do. I’m willing to act as the central clearing house. If you find someone with potential, post it on the forum – and send me a copy as well (lew@cooltri.com). Who knows – when the world champions are crowned in 2006, maybe we’ll all have a little smile on our faces.

Lew
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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Just curious...

Are you looking for a certain hair and eye color too?

A buddy of mine qualifies for the big show every year. He is a great athlete, he however was not "born" into it. He will be the first one to admit that he does so well - because he trains well. Others who would beat him with natural talent and moderate training dont beat him, due to bad training and lack of desire.

I dont think that it is possible to judge the future by a swim time. And I also know that the swim is the easiest place to improve upon as my IM splits went from 1:10 to :55 in less than a year with only changes being a stroke clinic.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Record9ti] [ In reply to ]
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R9T, I think he's referring more to Oly distance, but I agree with your sentiments.

One country's example - Carol Montgomery and Whitfield. Swimmers? Hardly. Commonwealth Games, Olympic champion, should-have-been world Champion (Perth...), regularly at the top of ITU races.

IM Distance - Bowden - anything but a swimmer. Natascha - hardly a swimmer.

Completely dependent on the course, but 9 times out of 10 I would take a runner.
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Marlin] [ In reply to ]
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Old wisdom always dies hard . . . but here are the facts. In open competition at the Olympic distance (which scratches the Commonwealth Games straight off), the swimmers have become absolutely dominant on the women's side. It was true in the 2002 ITU races; Sheila did 10 of those and she was part of the swimmer/biker break that controlled every last one of them. And it was true in the major non-drafting races as well. The swimmers dominated every one of those as well: Chicago, Los Angeles, and Lifetime Fitness. In fact, the swimmers went one-two-three-four at the latter.

The top women runners still win from time to time in world cup competition - but with just a couple of exceptions, it has been in races where the top swimmers didn't enter (or, as happened in 2002 Worlds in Edmonton, the break crashes).

There aren't many world class swimmers even competing on the men's side, which is - to my mind at least - much more of an opportunity than it is an indictment. The one true top swimmer is Craig Walton, and he did pretty well in 2003 - even without any buddies in the ITU races.

But I honestly don't want this to descend into one of those "drafting sucks" black holes. If that's what you believe, fine - i'll accept that. Just go on to another thread. Rehashing old arguments was not my purpose - I just wanted some help with a project.

Lew

Lew
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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Too bad in all of your talent scout "wisdom" you overlook people like Siri Lindley.
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Talent Scouts Sought [Penguin] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not overlooking Siri - she is a terrific triathlete. But tell me, exactly where would we go to look for the next Siri Lindley? She played soccer and lacrosse in college, and had no real background in competitive swimming. Siri learned to swim well enough as an adult to hold the main pack in ITU races - but she is almost alone in that accomplishment. For the vast majority of people, if you didn't learn to swim fast as a kid, you ain't going to make up the difference as an adult.

I'd love to find the next Siri - but how will I know if this is the one top runner in 10,000 who could learn to swim fast as an adult? And if there isn't any sure sign, can we afford to fund the other 9,999 failures?

Lew

Lew
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a reason why nobody has said a thing about cycling? While both swimming and running are very important I'm a firm believer that triathlons (excluding the ultra distance) are won on the bike. You can swim like a fish and run like a deer, but will gain or lose the most on the bike.

I don't work here, I just live here
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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Lew is talking about talent ID for short course Olympic racing, where cycling isn't as important as swimming and running speed. In the olympics its all about the sharks and the cheetahs :-)

Joel

www.CompetitionZone.com
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [czone] [ In reply to ]
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Contrary to popular wisdom, cycling is VERY important in ITU-style racing. The small group of top women swimmers (especially Barb Lindquist and Sheila Taormina) have been dominating top-level racing over the couple of years, often getting off the bike with from two to four minutes on the rest of the field. But they rarely START the bike leg with more than 30 seconds . . . which means they are doing some serious work on two wheels. Example: At the New York City race last summer, the two of them had 25 seconds after the swim, but were up nearly four minutes by the end of the bike. Example: At the Nice World Cup, Sheila was out of the water first, but then dropped her chain on the bike . . . and when she got it back on, she was back in fifth place. No matter. Along with Great Britain's Julie Dibens, she caught and dropped the leaders, and had over two minutes by the time she started the run.

What IS true, however, is that being a powerful biker is much less of an advantage if you are NOT a top swimmer. The conundrum for a pretty good swimmer/great biker is if you bike your brains out and limit the damage being inflicted by Lindquist and Taormina, the good runners just hang onto your wheel and then toast you in the run.

So, being a TOP swimmer is a condition precedent to use of your biking skills in current ITU racing . . . and unfortunately (for me and most of the rest of us), if you didn't become a top swimmer as a youth, you just aren't going to do it now.

Bottom line? Searching for a future Olympic champion from among the top biking talent of today is - and almost assuredly will continue to be - an exercise in futility. And if you want proof, think of ONE person, male or female, who has even remotely followed that road.

Lew

Lew
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Ze Gopha] [ In reply to ]
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Swimming and running are what wins in the triathlon-like sport the ITU considers to be triathlon (have my opinions on the draft legal crap come out yet? :) ). Unless you are a fast swimmer with the build to become a runner, you're fighting an uphill battle (you'll be 2 or 3 minutes behind)since it is very difficult to become a 17 minute 1500m swimmer without the "training as a youngster" that most fish seem to have. Most top calibre swimmers and runners can train enough to hang in the pack for the wheel suck, I mean bike portion of the ITU race on the flat, criterium style course.

Long course is the only real triathlon left and drafting sucks!
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Allan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Long course is the only real triathlon left and drafting sucks!


Amen! Raise your hands if you really give a crap about ITU-style racing or triathlon in the Olympics.

Not me.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like the current occupant of the White House . . . no matter the question, the answer is tax cuts.

Let me reprint the last paragraph from post #4 in this thread:
"But I honestly don't want this to descend into one of those 'drafting sucks' black holes. If that's what you believe, fine - i'll accept that. Just go on to another thread. Rehashing old arguments was not my purpose - I just wanted some help with a project." I'll put you down for a "no".

Lew
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One thing Sheila and Barb have in common is ... [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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PowerCranks as do many of the other dominant women - including Siri. If you take your natural fishes, (Sheila and Barb), put them on PC's and make them cyclists and runners, and the results follow. The short course men haven't found them yet, although there are a few now working on it - Greg Bennett for one. It is pretty clear to me, barring injury or very bad luck that next year's Olympic champion will be Barb.

I disagree with the premise somewhat. If Steve Larsen could be made into a somewhat better swimmer he would have no trouble making up a couple of minutes on the bike because triathletes really don't work well together to take advantage of the drafting rules. He would be like Siri but he would do it mostly on the bike.


Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: One thing Sheila and Barb have in common is ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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while it's not my favorite brand, i have no problem with draft-legal racing at the Olympic Distance ITU level, and i entirely agree with lew's sentiments on where to find our next crop of top athletes.

yes, there are exceptional circumstances where an overwhelmingly good runner (or lacrosse player) can dominate a triathlon. for those who want to be proactive and help recruit top athletes into triathlon and want to focus on the exceptions, i think lacrosse teams are the right focus for you. have at it.

but lew is entirely correct. if what you want to do is proactively recruit top triathletes, top swimmers who are adaptable runners is the best bet. i hope some who read this forum will want help lew in this effort.

btw, yes, lew is focusing on short course. but going back to the BIG FOUR, three of our sport's best-ever long coursers came from swimming. after their olympic cup of coffee these new recruits will eventually come into what i consider a much more compelling version of triathlon, which is half-IM and up no-draft racing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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Top swimmers are spending 20 hours a week swimming. Good luck getting them to run and bike. And then with college work and stuff.....

Most top swimmers hate running. I mean really hate it. Nothing like running to screw up a good kick.

Better bet is to get swimmers who have finished college and have finished their swimming careers.

But them why would they switch to triathlon? Money and fame maybe? Yeah, right. Most Olympic sport athletes are in the sport they are in because they love it. Swimmers love swimming. They don't love triathlon. Some may come to like it, but would they put the same effort into it? Might be like asking a cat person to start loving dogs.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC
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Re: One thing Sheila and Barb have in common is ... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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These athletes will be found in swim programs at the college level. What most all elite swimmers lack is the ability to run. It's actually refered to as a syndrome at the elite level, so it's rare to have the talents for both. The discipline of the college swimmer is almost a prerequisite for performing on the ITU playground, as well as having the fish like ability to stay with or near the pack. A elite cyclist has no incentive in the draft legal format. Go off the front only to get swallowed up. ITU is won by the best runner on that given day. The swim and the bike is just keepin up. The swim being the most important of the two since we all know what it's like to be off the back.
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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Lew, I think what you are attempting to do is awesome. (For better or worse, this board is inhabited mainly by IM enthusiasts) I swim with an elite Age Group Team (well, in the same pool anyway, not the same lanes or ballpark btw) and it still amazes me that 14 year old girls and boys can outswim me for 500 yards. If I run into any potential converts, I'll let you know.

By the way, what percentage of collegiate swimmers meet the time standards you listed in your post?


"The more you sweat today, the less you bleed tomorrow"
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [GT] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree. Ex collegiate swimmers would be the best place to start. I swam for a Division l swim program 20 years ago. We did a lot of running as crossing training for the first couple of months of the season. Most of the Freestylers were also great runners. I know there are many more collegiate swim programs who still use running as cross training prior to the season starting. Most top level swimmers are great athletes and could compete in other sports at a high level as well. Also most swimmers after their collegiate careers are over still would like to compete. But they have had enough of the swimming up and down the pool. The thought of triathlon racing utilizing swimming as one of the legs will entice ex swimmers to try it. One might also check collegiate water polo programs. Most of the top water polo programs have freestylers who when younger were capable of the speed lew was looking for.

Triathlon was were I turned to after 15 years of non competion. Also most distance swimmers have the work ethic needed to improve their biking and running.

ShaRRky
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [GT] [ In reply to ]
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GT: If you will review my original post, you'll see I recommend IDENTIFICATION while in college, but waiting to RECUIT until after graduation. Triathlon can not reasonably compete on a value for value basis with a full-ride from institututions like Stanford or Texas or Michigan . . . but we don't have to. In fact, since swimming FAST is a prerequisite to success anyway, why not let the colleges be our minor leagues. Our FREE minor leagues.

You are of course right that most top swimmers will not be realistic candidates for success in triathlon. Two years ago, I made an inventory of all U.S. women who met one of my time standards, and then set out to see if there were any potential triathletes on the list. A full fifteen on my list swam at one time in the 1990's for U of Arizona . . . but upon investigation, NONE had (in my view) the right stuff to become a top triathlete.

But as Lindquist (Stanford), Taormina (Georgia), Gibbs (LSU), Reback (SMU), and Zeiger (Brown) demonstrate, the animal DOES exist. We just need to look.

One final point: you are wrong about the rewards. There are a substantial number of elite short-course triathletes who have turned their abilities into a VERY good career. Off the combination of prize money, sponsorships, and grants from national governing bodies, there are at least 100 men and women who are making a very good living from the sport. A number of them are making in the low-to-mid six figures and almost all of the rest are in the mid-to-high five figures. And what's more, those figures are growing at very robust pace. [And they don't include payment of expenses. When Taormina races in the Nice World Cup, her expenses are fully paid by USAT (out of the $500,000 plus that comes annually from USOC). Not so for those who race Ironman.]

In fact, money is the major reason why the really talented athletes are sticking with short-course. First of all, there is LOTS of prize money. 18 World Cups this year, most of them having $80,000 prize purses. A world championship with $160,000+. 40+ international points races with a minimum of $10,000 in prize money - and many of those with substantially more (the Baker's Breakfast Cookies race in Bellingham, WA on June 1 will have $40,000). Not to mention Lifetime Fitness, where the winner will take home $210,000 or so from a $435,000 total purse.

Ironman races have good prize money too, but not nearly as much as short courses. But the key difference is the number of races an athlete can do. Taormina did five races in one six-week period last fall, earning close to $25,000 in the process. But how many ultra athletes can do more than one or maybe two GOOD ironman races in a single year. The winners in Hawaii take home $100,000 apiece, but have a bad day there and you'll be eating a lot of peanut butter and crackers for the next 12 months.

Lew

Lew
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Mark C] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Mark C,

Thanks for the offer. Send me a private e-mail at lew@cooltri.com and we'll keep in touch.

Lew

Lew
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Mark C] [ In reply to ]
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What percentage reach my standards? Here's a guess. Let's say there are 120 Division 1 swim programs of each gender, and let's say there are 30 swimmers on each of these 240 teams. In other words, a total 7200 athletes in any given year. In any given year, there are about 50 different swimmers who meet at least one of my standards, which would be around 7% of the total.

Lew
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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I have been working with the Iowa State triathlon team ever since I helped to establish the team in 1999. During that time I got involved with the Collegiate Triathlon Association(CTA). I have been the midwest region representative for the CTA and am a member of the board of directors for the CTA. I have to agree with you that the top triathletes are coming from the swim programs. Our only member from the Iowa State swim team that participated on the triathlon team was by far our fastest female. This year I have been watching and recruiting members of the Iowa State womens swim team for participation in the triathlon team, we also have a couple of people from the Track/cross country teams at Iowa state who have joined the team.

This is all in preparation for the Collegiate national championship triathlon at Lake Pleasant on April 26th. We are expecting 800+ college students to attend this race, it should be a good place to keep your eyes open for new recruits. I know the past couple years there have been men and women from the college nationals move on to pro careers immediately after the competition.


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http://www.ventuscustoms.com Custom Bicycle Painting.
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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Current time lists are up at:

http://www.cscaa.org/

Keep in mind that no one has had conference meets yet, and not too many people tapered for the US Open in December, so that list is a bit slow right now. Last year's NCAA psych sheets:

Women: http://www.ncaachampionships.com/0,5920,1_770_0_11372,00.html

Men: http://www.ncaachampionships.com/0,5920,1_721_0_11650,00.html

You've also got to remember to seperate out foreign nationals like Janelle Aiktinson and Flavia Rigamonti.

I was playing around on USAT's web site and was surprised to discover how (for lack of a better word) lame thier swim time standards are for resident team application. Their A time of 5:15 for women's 500 is a couple seconds slower than the NCAA Division 3 nationals B standard (5:11) And 5:32 in the 500 Free (USAT B) doesn't even get you to high school state meet in most places. It's pretty much a requierment that you be merely good, but not great.

Interesting comparing them to the run time standards, which unlike the swim, cannot be easily met by a slightly more than competent 15 year old.
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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The good news? USAT did not have ANY time standards in individual sports until recently. They just took the best of whomever showed up at the door. The bad news? You hit it right on the head: if all a prospect can do is hit THOSE standards, USAT is wasting its money. They will NEVER seriously compete on a world stage.

In fairness, however, I need to emphasize that a good share of USAT's elite budget is, happy surprise, performance based. In other words, a substantial percentage of the money goes to people like Lindquist, Taormina, and before her retirement, Lindley, who demonstrate that they can indeed compete.

But there are anomalies. In the U.S., we have a strong tendency towards gender equality (or at least, we have it if the gender to be "disadvantaged" is male). In the current state of triathlon, the women's team kicks ass. Four women have 14 world cup wins (and a first, second, and third at worlds) among them over the past two years. Meanwhile, the men's team is somewhat less accomplished (like no world cup wins in modern history and not even a single top seven at worlds). The result? The top three men still got the same year-end performance bonuses as the top three women, even though the three women were 1st, 2nd, and 10th in the ITU rankings, while the men were 16th, 25th, and 57th. And left out of the year-end performance bonuses completely were Laura Reback (now 8th in the world) and Joanna Zeiger (only fourth at the 2000 Olympics and third at 2001 Worlds).

But what can we say when Title IX is crying out for reform?

Lew
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Re: Talent Scouts Sought [Lew] [ In reply to ]
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I've taken this theory a step further. I married a fast swimmer and had two kids. My 10 year old son can run an 800 under 3:00 (little to no training) and his swimming is coming along well also. He rides a MTB in a really hilly area so his spin is developing well also . . . only time will tell I guess.
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