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PTO Ranking System for 2024
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The 70.3 Tasmania result is up on the PTO results list:
https://stats.protriathletes.org/...asmania/2023/results
It shows that this race was (assessed by PTO) as a Silver 'tier' race and that the "SOF" (whatever that is but replaces 'AIT' in a column in the individual athlete's results) - 65 for the WPROs and 68 for the MPROs.
https://stats.protriathletes.org/athlete/ellie-salthouse
I guess the PTO will soon share the revised 2023 ranking protocol which I think they said a set of athletes had been working on.
If this is going to inform athletes' selection of races (other than 'do the PTO Tour' (only if top 40/50 by whatever cut off date)) then it needs to be published.
An interesting aspect is whether the PTO are going to revise the points gained in 2022 as those points will be carried forward into the 2023 rankings (ie races in last 365 days).
Currently on the PTO website they have the 2021 protocol version: https://protriathletes.org/...-rankings-explained/
Last edited by: Ajax Bay: Mar 28, 24 8:03
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Ajax Bay wrote:
The 70.3 Tasmania result is up on the PTO results list:
https://stats.protriathletes.org/...asmania/2023/results
It shows that this race was (assessed by PTO) as a Silver 'tier' race and that the "SOF" (whatever that is but replaces 'AIT' in a column in the individual athlete's results) - 65 for the WPROs and 68 for the MPROs.
https://stats.protriathletes.org/athlete/ellie-salthouse
I guess the PTO will soon share the revised 2023 ranking protocol which I think they said a set of athletes had been working on.
If this is going to inform athletes' selection of races (other than 'do the PTO Tour' (only if top 40/50 by whatever cut off date)) then it needs to be published.
An interesting aspect is whether the PTO are going to revise the points gained in 2022 as those points will be carried forward into the 2023 rankings (ie races in last 365 days).
Currently on the PTO website they have the 2021 protocol version: https://protriathletes.org/...-rankings-explained/

I am totally guessing but i think the 65 and 68 reflects the strength of the field? So stronger field, possibility of higher points? Which means big races like their own PTO + World Champs will get you the most points....Which can be self serving in the sense that only the top pros qualify so this makes it even harder for up and coming pros to climb up?
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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Which means big races like their own PTO + World Champs will get you the most points....which can be self serving in the sense that only the top pros qualify so this makes it even harder for up and coming pros to climb up?

Are you advocating that they give more points to weaker fields with lower prize money?? Of course it will end up being self serving, but it is also a real reflection of who is doing the best. Big money races will get the best fields, and of course world champs will too. And since the PTO pays really, really deep, that is your avenue for new folks to make a mark and work their way up the ladder. Seems like a lot of people think the system is not fair to the back markers, but this is not meant to be a fair contest, it is supposed to be a reflection of who is at the top, and then a ranking system to mirror those results..
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [monty] [ In reply to ]
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asianzone wrote:
Which means big races like their own PTO + World Champs will get you the most points....which can be self serving in the sense that only the top pros qualify so this makes it even harder for up and coming pros to climb up?
monty wrote:
Are you advocating that they give more points to weaker fields with lower prize money?? Of course it will end up being self serving, but it is also a real reflection of who is doing the best. Big money races will get the best fields, and of course world champs will too. And since the PTO pays really, really deep, that is your avenue for new folks to make a mark and work their way up the ladder. Seems like a lot of people think the system is not fair to the back markers, but this is not meant to be a fair contest, it is supposed to be a reflection of who is at the top, and then a ranking system to mirror those results.
As well as @monty's observation, I think the incentive to top athletes to race in the top (?tier) races will mean that less of that top 40 will race in the run-of-the-mill 70.3s and Challenge MDs leaving the opportunity for those still at a lower level/ranking to win prize money and get a score on the board as opposed to a top 40 athlete rolling up to scoop 1st/2nd. At the end of the day/race, a good performance will surely earn good points, and 3 of those will pay a dividend (and set that MOP athlete up to get a start in the PTO Tour races).
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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There is indeed a new system they've shared with pros but we're not allowed to share any details until the official unveiling. As someone who was very critical of the rankings system in the past, I like this one a lot more. Not perfect, but overall more balanced and not left up to arbitrary 'ideal times'. Looking forward to it going forward.

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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
There is indeed a new system they've shared with pros but we're not allowed to share any details until the official unveiling. As someone who was very critical of the rankings system in the past, I like this one a lot more. Not perfect, but overall more balanced and not left up to arbitrary 'ideal times'. Looking forward to it going forward.
Now announced:
https://www.protriathletes.org/...orld-ranking-system/
Scores depend on status of race (tier), finishing position, strength of field and time ahead or behind a time set by an average of the first 'x' (number depends on number finishing). Ranking will continue to depend on an athlete's best 3 scores, in the last 52 weeks (so rolling). The 2022 scores have been recalculated as they affect the strength of field score in 2023 races.
". . . a new version of the PTO World Rankings System (PTO WRS) following the hard work of a committee of professional athletes to make the rankings more transparent, objective and reflective of professional triathletes’ race performances over a season."
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Which means big races like their own PTO + World Champs will get you the most points....which can be self serving in the sense that only the top pros qualify so this makes it even harder for up and coming pros to climb up?

Are you advocating that they give more points to weaker fields with lower prize money?? Of course it will end up being self serving, but it is also a real reflection of who is doing the best. Big money races will get the best fields, and of course world champs will too. And since the PTO pays really, really deep, that is your avenue for new folks to make a mark and work their way up the ladder. Seems like a lot of people think the system is not fair to the back markers, but this is not meant to be a fair contest, it is supposed to be a reflection of who is at the top, and then a ranking system to mirror those results..

Ya, I agree. I think this way is the best way, if I understand it right. It does mean up and coming Sam Long's of the future have to play a bit of a long game to break into the PTO upper echelon. But eventually, winning 70.3s will get "easier" without the top talent there. So you win a 70.3, qualify for 70.3 Worlds, place well there, and then you've got some real PTO ranking points boost. If you don't place well at 70.3 worlds, try again next year. 2-3 year cycle to pay your dues at a minimum after going pro to make a PTO dent. Seems more than reasonable, assuming I understand it right.
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Pro Tri News discusses this: https://podcasts.apple.com/...ri-news/id1559781865
Ugly audio.
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Ajax Bay wrote:
asianzone wrote:
Which means big races like their own PTO + World Champs will get you the most points....which can be self serving in the sense that only the top pros qualify so this makes it even harder for up and coming pros to climb up?
monty wrote:
Are you advocating that they give more points to weaker fields with lower prize money?? Of course it will end up being self serving, but it is also a real reflection of who is doing the best. Big money races will get the best fields, and of course world champs will too. And since the PTO pays really, really deep, that is your avenue for new folks to make a mark and work their way up the ladder. Seems like a lot of people think the system is not fair to the back markers, but this is not meant to be a fair contest, it is supposed to be a reflection of who is at the top, and then a ranking system to mirror those results.
As well as @monty's observation, I think the incentive to top athletes to race in the top (?tier) races will mean that less of that top 40 will race in the run-of-the-mill 70.3s and Challenge MDs leaving the opportunity for those still at a lower level/ranking to win prize money and get a score on the board as opposed to a top 40 athlete rolling up to scoop 1st/2nd. At the end of the day/race, a good performance will surely earn good points, and 3 of those will pay a dividend (and set that MOP athlete up to get a start in the PTO Tour races).


personally i really like this system its a good mix of quality of field and performance . at first sight its spot on. i guess the only think your are missing is some bonus points if a lower guy does beat a top athelte.
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Looking over the criteria for the new rankings, it certainly seems like the scores from Roth this past year would have been a bit lower. It seems a bit more balanced now - athletes should know ahead of time based on the race and field what sort of score is attainable. It seemed a bit crazy that Anne and Magnus got such high scores at Roth compared to other races.

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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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I think this is a better system. The only area which I think they should rethink is how IM distance races have been “downgraded”
So Ash is now number one and Paula 3rd? They are both fine athletes but I do think the scoring should factor in athletes that excel in both distances
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe, but given the PTO are focused on the middle distance races for the time being (recent comments from Sam Renouf about not doing longer events in 2024/2025), it makes more sense for the rankings system to align with the PTO season narrative.



asianzone wrote:
I think this is a better system. The only area which I think they should rethink is how IM distance races have been “downgraded”
So Ash is now number one and Paula 3rd? They are both fine athletes but I do think the scoring should factor in athletes that excel in both distances
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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The entire PTO system is set up to encourage the best long course athletes to race each other head to head to create compelling races. They can't give high points to every long course race because that would encourage/allow all the best athletes to spread out their long course appearances across all of the long course races and not compete head to head.

With the current tiers, it encourages showing up to a select few long course races, which fits well with the fact that most triathletes can/will only do a couple or a few long course races in a year.

What would be interesting (but unlikely) is if Ironman decided to bump up their prize money in all the Ironmans to get them into the top tiers. Then the spreading out problem is back, but PTO has accomplished one of their goals in that prize money has increased.
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, you can actually see this as the scores from last year have been recalculated and show up for each athlete in the current rankings.

Haug Roth 89.65 now versus 131.41 in the old system.
Ditlev Roth 92.06 now versus 129.42 in the old system.

The entire scale is a bit different now, with it being very difficult to get a score over 100.
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
Yes, you can actually see this as the scores from last year have been recalculated and show up for each athlete in the current rankings.

Haug Roth 89.65 now versus 131.41 in the old system.
Ditlev Roth 92.06 now versus 129.42 in the old system.

The entire scale is a bit different now, with it being very difficult to get a score over 100.
Given that the 2022 protocol relied on time alone, both Haug and Ditlev's races were top top drawer (compare them if you like to previous illustrious winners).
In the reworked scheme, Ditlev suffers from, inter alia, Frodeno not being ranked (no events) so the SOF score suffers. And Haug's race was superb (as good as 2021's race in mpk terms (2021 shortened and less climb)) but again: against who> Langridge, Siddall, Clarke, so low SOF
The scheme is designed to encourage athletes aspiring to and capable of high ranking to race in events which will attract the best of the rest.
Trouble is, outside Roth, for LD that's only the IMWC (Nice/Kona). So all those having to KQ (eg Philipp, Matthews, Langridge, McCauley) have to race an IM this spring, but the chance of it being one of their top 3 scores come October, is low.
Those AQ or KQ already can race Roth with an excellent SOF and gain good points with a good race. I guess Philipp could too, once she KQs in a fortnight.
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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With PTO putting in a Strength of Field and a Tier system, aren't these the same function?

Ideally, you'd want a win in [world class race with all the top performers] to be worth more than a win in [local race where mid-tier pro beats up on the local field]. But both SOF and the tiers reflect the same thing.

They've made both a judgement based decision as to which ones are the top races (I have no issue with which ones, its their race and ranking system they can do what they want), but SOF measures the same thing - the big guns (presumably) show up for the top races (which have the most points in their Tier), and you'll get extra points on SOF for beating the big guns.
Last edited by: timbasile: Feb 16, 23 8:22
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
With PTO putting in a Strength of Field and a Tier system, aren't these the same function?

Ideally, you'd want a win in [world class race with all the top performers] to be worth more than a win in [local race where mid-tier pro beats up on the local field]. But both SOF and the tiers reflect the same thing.

They've made both a judgement based decision as to which ones are the top races (I have no issue with which ones, its their race and ranking system they can do what they want), but SOF measures the same thing - the big guns (presumably) show up for the top races (which have the most points in their Tier), and you'll get extra points on SOF for beating the big guns.
This is the only thing I don't love about the new system so far. Seems like one or the other would have been fine. Here's the thing though: the SOF scoring aspect will benefit the back/mid pack more than the front pack. Kind of. Since that is a flat number that is the same for every single finisher, it will still drastically incentivize those who need to climb in the rankings (like myself) to show up to big races. A decent SOF score can help make up for a a place or two that I might lose from having those guys in the race.

I'd still prefer no tier system but considering that starting score (100, 95, 90, 80, 70) is only directly factored into the Postion Score and indirectly into the Race Time Score, I don't think it will be quite as big a hit as it looks. It does almost make racing at least one regional 70.3 or Ironman Championship worth it though. I was considering doing a different race over St. George 70.3 but with it being a 90 point base and with part of the field likely being in Europe for the first PTO open, it's a great opportunity to score some points.

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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Ajax Bay wrote:
realbdeal wrote:
There is indeed a new system they've shared with pros but we're not allowed to share any details until the official unveiling. As someone who was very critical of the rankings system in the past, I like this one a lot more. Not perfect, but overall more balanced and not left up to arbitrary 'ideal times'. Looking forward to it going forward.
Now announced:
https://www.protriathletes.org/...orld-ranking-system/
Scores depend on status of race (tier), finishing position, strength of field and time ahead or behind a time set by an average of the first 'x' (number depends on number finishing). Ranking will continue to depend on an athlete's best 3 scores, in the last 52 weeks (so rolling). The 2022 scores have been recalculated as they affect the strength of field score in 2023 races.
". . . a new version of the PTO World Rankings System (PTO WRS) following the hard work of a committee of professional athletes to make the rankings more transparent, objective and reflective of professional triathletes’ race performances over a season."
I learn that the PTO Rankings scoring protocol is to be revised for 2024. Presumably the details will be shared soon.
At present only the IMWC and PTO Tour (now T100) races were top tier (Diamond), with 70.3WC and Roth next level down (Platinum). I assume all the IM World Series full distance races will be Gold (even if they aren't designated continental champs). And one of those races is likely to attract a 5% 'best IM (not IMWC) score' bonus too.
This might go some way to avoid the rankings (and therefore 2025 contracts) being too much of a closed shop.
I note that IM have put the prize purse for Taupo up to $500,000 - what motivated that?? ;) which should qualify for an upgrade to business class (aka Diamond).
https://files.constantcontact.com/...a14-689124e00d3a.pdf
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting, wonder how they will modify it

I think if they increase the bonus to top IM score from 5% to maybe 8% will help close the gap for those who are not able to get T100 contract this year as there are very little points for 70.3 races except for WC

However the number of wild cards being given out at each races will also help. Youri is a good example, another solid performance in Singapore will cement his top 20 position in the rankings
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Re: PTO Ranking System for 2023 [Ajax Bay] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
IRONMAN Pro Series
All IM Pro Series events (excluding the World Championships) will be Gold Tier in 2024.
This takes into account individual event prize money as well as the IM Pro Series Bonus Pool money.

IM 70.3 World Championships
The 70.3 World Championships will move up to Diamond Tier with its increased prize money to $500,000usd.
The IM World Championship events also remain at Diamond Tier.

Challenge Family Events
The majority of Challenge Family's events will remain at Silver Tier.
Although for many of their half-distance events the individual event prize money does not reach the minimum of $25,000usd required, the PTO has always taken into account the Challenge Family Season Bonus, similar to how the IM Series money is applied.
There are still some Challenge Family events that are Bronze Tier, as they have significantly less prize money.

Other Events
Challenge Roth and World Triathlon Long Distance World Championships will move down to Gold Tier, as they do not meet the Prize Money requirements to remain at Platinum after an exemption was applied by the PTO in 2023.

5% Bonus Calculation
For 2024, rather than only applying the 5% bonus to an Athletes best single Gold Tier full-distance score, this will now be applied to any distance race that meets the PTOs Requirements.
To clarify, this will be applied to an athletes best score at a Gold Tier or below event (Silver or Bronze).

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