I really don't understand why you and others are so focused on if they had a deal and what kind of deal they had.

Let's assume for a moment they had the most locked kind of deal. The kind you can't get out of without significant money loss that people seem to point out IM should have had.

You then discover the community doesn't want the race. What do you do? Do you run the event anyways? How do you find the volunteers? What if the locals don't collaborate and stage protests? Occupy the road? What if you never get the permits ever again beyond whatever was in that "deal"? (Meaning no more IM beyond 2023?)

I like the fact that they move the race. what i dont like is that kona and ironman could not find a way to have a 2023 race over 2 days so the change can be planned properly.
the thing is quali period starts mid august, so to change after that day is no good.
as who as at fault i have no idea as you would have to have been at the negotiation table between both parties to know .
my feeling is ironman pushed kona for the 2nd day , and then the locals pushed back . i dont see any indication that kona ever wanted the 2nd day. At the same time i think kona should have given them a 2nd saturday for 2023 so all can change in order.
so i guess both are at fault but likely ironman a more as they wanted to much from the island.

It’s business irresponsibility to behave in a certain manner if you don’t have a contract right? Like IM was giving out slots that said Kona for ‘23. I mean the mayor said what 3 days after the event that there was no deal completed, yet IM kept plugging along as if there was right?

Did they give out AZ slots just 2 weeks ago to “KQ” athletes, like that’s the definition of business shadiness is it not?

Eta: and I’m not saying force Kona to stick to the agreement. I’m saying if there was any doubt and IM had knowledge of that doubt to still keep giving out KQ awards is seemingly just stupid. Like splitting Kona didn’t just happen Monday in their board room meeting, that idea had to have been on the table almost immediately after 22 when one side of the contract says in the record “yeah no 2 day in ‘23 yet”. At that point you have to be more upfront w your customers do you not?

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm sure they had a signed deal, and IMs lawyers could have enforced the contract and we would have a two day Kona in 23... and then the island would say, that's your last race here, get lost. IM is taking heat for the locals changing their mind after they agreed to the race.... and i comment IM for not calling out the locals and putting all the blame in them to escape the heat. Look at what happened in Canada when the locals turned on IMC. IM had to find a solution that kept the race in Kona long term. Enforcing a signed contract that the locals no longer want probably is going to yield a successful 2024 race.

---

______________________________________________
Team Zoot

No, you don't need to be more upfront with your customers early in every situation not going to plan. This is how business works, things are often messy behind the scenes, but in many cases a company is able to work out the messy stuff and find a solution without multiple communications with an update on ambiguity and uncertainty. IM clearly figured they could work it out, throw more money at it and solve the problem. I am sure they were devastated when it became clear that no level of money or concessions were going to solve the issue. They weren't selling something they didn't have. They had it, the other side got cold feet, and they couldn't jeep them in the game without devastating future impacts.

---

______________________________________________
Team Zoot

Yes, exactly, well put. To me this is the heart of the matter.

If it was the case that IM had a signed contract, then, yes, I agree with you. But I just haven’t seen any evidence that there was a signed contract or anything along those lines. As others have pointed out, the public statements on the Kona side were pretty equivocal. I think it’s more likely that IM knew back in October (and possibly well before) that a 2-day race might not be possible and, therefore, had a responsibility to be more upfront. Reasonable people can disagree on these points and, of course, we are all just speculating as to how firm an agreement was reached.

We'll just agree to disagree, because if you are giving out a product with the background knowledge that said product isn't 100% what you are saying it is, even though you are saying it is that, that's shady as fuck.

ETA: And that's for any business, so that's not IM specific. If you are basically knowingly selling a product under *false* pretenses, that's business dishonesty imo.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Is our failure to deeply understand why the island doesn't want more of us part of the issue?


Your post may be the best of the bunch here as you have posed some of the deeper more philosophical questions about all of this.

I keep coming back to the point that, the race and the event has simply out-grown the venue, and maybe it's time to move on . . BUT there is a HUGE amount of emotional capital tied up with the Kailua-Kona venue. I know that I'm guilty of that myself! So the changes or separation is going to be REALLY difficult!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I do wonder how easily Nice could hold a "two day WC" (although it's more like 4 or 5 days isn't it when you consider the set up and tear down?).

Piece of cake. They’ve done it before for the TDF. In 2020 it was in Nice on stages one and two.

Also I’m not saying a company has to communicate the messy details. I’m saying when the final product isn’t complete don’t sell me said final product when you have people behind the scenes still determining the messy details.

So when you then sale me something when it’s not really that….that is a problem.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

spot on.

@Fleck has the key point: with more athletes, particularly women, wanting to race in the IM World Championships, the race has "simply out-grown the [current] venue" (reinforced by IM's business imperative).
I assure you, based on being at Nice for the 70.3s in 2019 in early September (2 days), and other sources, Nice could host a "two day WC". Races would probably have to be split by a day. There is enough space to extend to 5000 bike rack slots on Promenade des Anglais which might mean the days could be consecutive but the human factor (organisers and volunteers) is likely the critical limiter for two days (0600-2300) back to back.

@Fleck has the key point: with more athletes, particularly women, wanting to race in the IM World Championships, the race has "simply out-grown the [current] venue" (reinforced by IM's business imperative).
I assure you, based on being at Nice for the 70.3s in 2019 in early September (2 days), and other sources, Nice could host a "two day WC". Races would probably have to be split by a day. There is enough space to extend to 5000 bike rack slots on Promenade des Anglais which might mean the days could be consecutive but the human factor (organisers and volunteers) is likely the critical limiter for two days (0600-2300) back to back.


Thank you.

Just going back the fundamentals of the challenge here.

My wife was in Nice for the IM 70.3 World Championships a few years ago, supporting an athletes she was Coaching and thought that Nice did an outstanding job with it all. In many respects a WAY better location.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I hate to break it to you all, but you are being scammed by the idea that the "locals" don't want the event. Most real locals have left the place as it has become unaffordable. The remainder are trying to make ends meet in anyway possible, and most actually want more tourism as it is the way many of them make money. These ideas about keeping the big lsland as pure and unadulterated as possible is a grift concocted by the island elite, a group of wealthy non-native homeowners who have taken over the island and are trying to turn it into their own private playground. Look on redfin or zillow. The prices for housing there is unaffordable for 95% percent of America. The local governments there are extremely corrupt and will follow the money. Get a clue, you all have been outbid...

I hate to break it to you all, but you are being scammed by the idea that the "locals" don't want the event. Most real locals have left the place as it has become unaffordable. The remainder are trying to make ends meet in anyway possible, and most actually want more tourism as it is the way many of them make money.


Yes.

I first traveled to Kona to race myself IMH back in 1989, and since then I have been back either to race, myself, for the times my wife has been racing there, and for work or pleasure about 15 - 16x. I've seen the place change dramatically - at many levels. You are not far off on your post!

That's why, the situation with regards to the race, is WAY different now, vs, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, and even prior to the pandemic in 2019. I mentioned in another post, that the Endurance Spots Race/Event business was hammered, like all Live Events Businesses during the pandemic. Another businesses sector that was brutally pounded, was the tourism business - and that's means Kailua-Kona took a HUGE hit economically.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

So what that needs is for Iroman to get the people who depend on tourism to hound those in control / leadership (ie needing election) to support the race, rather than rhe mayor for example giving or forwarding on grief about the inconvenience.

Unless this is Ironman's play to those in Kona to say "we're leaving for Europe then" and place 1 foot out of the door, whilst leaving the 2nd foot behind.
If the tourist income drops next year, maybe it'll change some attitudes ?

Unless this is Ironman's play to those in Kona to say "we're leaving for Europe then" and place 1 foot out of the door, whilst leaving the 2nd foot behind.
If the tourist income drops next year, maybe it'll change some attitudes ?


I sense it was this - to keep the doors open and a foot in the door in Kona!

Just based on the HUGE negative push-back this hybrid move that IM has come up with, has received, the full-on departure from Kona, may have been cataclysmic!

One thing that never seems to get talked about is the HUGE hassle, inconvenience and cost it is to travel TO Kona. The ONLY people that it's reasonably "easy" for are those on the west coast of North America. For EVERYONE else, it's a bit of an ordeal! ANY location in western Europe is way better in this regard for way many more people.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

 I am not trying to be a sensationalist or a conspiracy theorist. The elites in Hawaii who pull the strings of local government don't want tourism. They may say they care about the plight of the locals, but it is lip service. They do care about keeping away outsiders as much as possible. The state of Hawaii is very complex, and there are many layers to it. While it is technically part of the United States, in many ways it is its own entity outside the U.S, and it has drastically changed over the past 10-15 years. Their response to the pandemic was extremely draconian, in many ways similar to China. This absolutely killed off the tourism industry, which still has not bounced back. But one thing that did not die was the real estate industry, which became even more frenzied during the pandemic. It has resulted in an influx of very wealthy people from other states and countries who are essentially going to take over the place and craft it to their liking by making it unaffordable for everyone else.

Truth. Want to race the IMWC......bring $7k-10k to pay the bill.

I was reading through some posts about this issue... I would like to raise this matter: do we want triathlon to be more spread out , popular and democratic or we want it to be elitist and for the gram??. I am kind of sick of seeing people making a drama from this

---

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P