I think you are confusing what should happen with what often actually happens. What often happens is that female-only events are harder to get the same level of attention and money invested. This is simply true.

I actually find it offensive that you imply that I, or Ruth Astle, am belittling a female-only event. In fact, I am disgusted by the realities. But at least I see them and don’t pretend like this is a win.

Funny thing is IM charges the same price to vendors whether 1800 show up or a "max" field show up ~2500, and yet vendors will have massive differences in sales with those numbers. And that has zero to do with whether it's a male vs female race. If only 1800 people showed up to an race, said vendor would have second thoughts as easily if it was a male race as well.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Like everything in life.

Good for some.
Same for some.
bad for some.

Some want KONA not money.
Some want MONEY not kona.
SOME WANT BOTH.

long distance triathlon is an interesting sport as kids we have very little control in sport and as a LDT you have all the control in training and schedule choose. BUT none in any other aspect of the racing. Race dates, locations, money, competition, officiating, drug abuse.
This is why few complain about their own controls and nonstop complain about their out of controls.

---

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

Ok then - go ask that question to Jan Frodeno . Of course everyone wants to win a world champs. My point if you read it again is - if they had the choice between a world champs in KONA or somewhere else .. they would say KONA. Every one of them.
And no its not what it is because the best show up.. look at other races in the world where EVERYONE shows up - some of the PTO races, 70.3 worlds, roth.. they were all stacked... Kona has a different feel about it. How about asking the people who have actually won a professional race there -- Gustav Iden , Jan frodeno, etc etc...

which female-only triathlons are you talking about? the only ones i can think of, of note, were the danskin series races. otherwise, what come to mind in endurance sport are the race for the cure events. those weren't necessarily women-only, but they were overwhelmingly by, for, and populated by women. what other events are you referring to? if it's pro only events, like TdF feminin, okay, but that's not what this is.

otherwise you're digging hard for reasons to be offended. i just don't agree with the premise that this event is likely to be under-appreciated by sponsors, or brands going to sell their wares in the expo, or whatever it is you're concerned about. 2,500 women need exactly the same stuff as 2,500 men. they all need bikes, wheels, nutrition, helmets, footwear, apparel, nutrition. what brand would be so obtuse as to not see that?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

the IM expo in kona was meager this year. why? i suspect it's because vendors the year before didn't feel they got value. in another post (possibly in this thread) i just wrote that there's plenty that i don't see eye to eye on with IM, and the expo is one of those things. this race needs a really vibrant expo, and IM charges too much for its expo and doesn't deliver enough. this is why the expo is lightly populated. in my view, IM needs to pump up everything about this race, and that means making sure that expo is poppin'. if i'm QR, or ROKA, or profile design or FSA or HOKA, whether i'm an IM partner or not, i want that expo to be really big. if ROKA doesn't get foot traffic because it's an anemic expo that colors the value of the entire partnership. that's the case whether it's a mens, womens, or mixed-gender event.

as to 1,800 versus 2,800 women, it's not my brand and i haven't given this a lot of thought, but maybe where IM needs to retool is in how many women get to qualify for this race. maybe they need to offer more slots. maybe they need to offer slots at 70.3 events and i don't throttle back until i know i'm going to fill up that field.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think time is the key. I totally agree that if all the best athletes are at a race and attempting to peak then it is a world championship, almost regardless of what it is called, but certainly regardless of where it is. However, with long course triathlon, it isn't going to happen overnight because Kona is ingrained in everyone's mind. The male pros will be somewhat fragmented in their focus next year and therefore it will be unlikely that there's a race that attracts all the best athletes and all attempting to peak. Some will just be looking ahead to 2024, some will go PTO, Roth, wherever puts up the most money. Some will stick with Ironman.

It's going to take a bit longer to get other locations recognized if they plan to keep switching back and forth. At least for a few years, there will be a "true" world championship that everyone really cares about every 2 years (kinda like the Olympics every 4 years). If they ripped it out of Kona entirely forever, the process would be quicker (though it could end up being a PTO or Challenge race that becomes the "real world championship").

Agreed

When the women had their own day at Kona this year I watched every second of the race and it was VERY cool to me

Much better than the usual coverage of their race

So if we’ve learned anything from this whole decision, IM is “business minded”. So there is zero reason why IM would lower the vendor fees (look I work for a tri store Inside Out Sports, that negotiates with IM and knows what the vendor fees are). So if that’s the case, you have to make sure you’re going to get your money’s worth and you only get that with full fields, whether that’s Kona, TX 70.3, any race. 80% doesn’t cut it in 2022 economics with margins as thin as they are now and then you add in the “cost” of travel in Kona now. It’s going to be a hard pass for vendors if IM can’t get 2300+ athletes that week in the same “business minded” sense for each vendor.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hate to break this to you but no one cares where the world championship is held. Sorry bud.

If you go to a good gravel race expo you realize how much IM mails it in on Kona’s.

I think the split race is going to backfire with sponsors and expo. Maybe IM doesn’t realize a brand’s doesn’t revolve around them, but they likely will next year.

2 days before or after the other event is very different than a month and 2 oceans away.

I also loved the 2 day format.

i don't have to go to a good gravel race. the mega race expo is as much a creature of triathlon as any other sport, and had these way before cycling did. (i think MTB probably figured out expo out first among cycling specialties.) back in *the day* we used to sell 80 or so wetsuits, like clockwork, at every wildflower and every chicago triathlon expo. those were the 2 best expos. IM's expo has always been ho hum, but this is why it's a little different with that brand: they are whipsawed between an expo that makes money and an expo that serves the licensees/partners. they make perhaps $20mm on those annual partnerships, which is way more than any single race makes in partnerships/sponsorships (whether gravel or triathlon). IM has seen the expo as a deliverable for partners. what IM does not see is that the expo is also something else: it shows the world how big your world is. if your world, as a race organizer, is small, then the outside world looking at you will see how small-minded and small-thinking you are. the expo is a proxy for how large you can think; how big are your arms as you try to reach out and hug your users. IM doesn't see that, because the best part of IM is its race production staff and the worst part of IM is and always has been its marketing staff.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It will be interesting to see how committed vendors are to the world championships. Like I said in a previous post. World Rugby previously ran separate promotions for the Men's and Women's 7s series. The Women's series was poorly supported, except for CAN 7s which was also held on Vancouver Island. And now they collapsed the series to only 7 stops and completely as joint promotions.

It will be interesting to see if Vendors just commit to Kona because it is Kona or if they go to the Men's race. Or, if they commit to attending both, how long does that last? We've seen from the bike shows that many of the industry shows have collapsed leaving, two? EuroBike and SeaOtter? Interbike seems gone.

Part of this will be a cost issue for sure. But it will be interesting to see who commits to what and who gets left out. Let's say vendors just commit to Kona, and stay at Kona. In the year the women aren't at Kona, they'll receive a lot of criticism. Have to say I'm "new" to Triathlon. I won't ever probably qualify for Kona, but the spell caught me real good. I'll probably still watch and stuff, but I'm guessing that this split WC will turn people off and this could be like ITU long course worlds and no one cares. And no it's not a "gap" for the PTO to exploit either like some may characterize.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

PTO need to partner up with World Triathlon (and maybe Challenge who know how to put on a race) and run a long-course World Championship in Kona (with 2500 age-groupers in tow).

The Ironman trademark can wither and die and we can get on with racing long-course triathlon.

I think that reasoning is a little flawed, depending on where you ask in the World you are going to get a lot of different answers on the "it" marathon and I doubt NYC would come out on top overall, even in most of the US. Boston, London, Chicago all arguably as or more notable than NYC. At least among runners I have encountered in my 30 years of doing it, Boston was always the race, although to be fair, I grew up in the Boston area and have run it 3 times. I have thought about NYC but haven't done it, although I admit its on a short list of races I would consider.

The World Marathon Majors is a much better model than just racing the "championship" in Kona every year. They have created a model where there are 6-7 "major prestige" events, instead of just one (Kona). I think the IM sees this model and realizes it is a way to grow the pie. Kona is also bad from a spectating standpoint (you are never going to have massive crowds) because there is such a tiny local population base and people can't just drive there to watch. Instead of having one WC as your ambassador, the WMM has a stable of "champions" and it always a story about who is going what races in a given year, instead of a boring non-story about who will be in Kona (basically everyone who qualified and has any reasonable of winning).

Should there be an asterisk after the 2024 TdF winner's name, because they won't be finishing in Paris that year...?

---

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

I would disagree. The worse part of IM is their customer service.

Vendors were not very happy with the cost and experience of this years Kona. ironman is really prioritizing their merch tent over the traditional expo. I don't think many, if any at all, will commit to both, it will probably be US based companies in Kona and European companies in Nice or TBD.

---

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Who do you think their partner is for the Collins Cup?

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Someone asked Frodo if he will go to Nice 2023, and he replied "whats there?"

Laidlow seemed equally unimpressed about waiting until 2024 for the next kona

Sanders said he might skip IM next year, but isnt Nice more favourable gor him like StG?

In 2023 the A* competition is there in Nice, Jan. Be fit and be there. You'll be recovered in good time for the Collins Cup.
Laidlow unimpressed? And? His alternative is?
Have you ridden down from Bouyon through Carros-village? How's Sanders' downhill skilz and bottle? You may wish to review the descent in 2019 with Iden and RvB wrecking Brownlee.

In Sam Long latest social media post he says he's waiting for PTO to release their schedule and will build his 23 season around their races. Ironman is not his goal. I cannot locate the post at this moment.

---

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Held each August in South Williamsport, Pa., the Little League Baseball® World Series (LLBWS) is an iconic youth sports event that welcomes 20 teams from around the world to compete for the chance to be named World Series Champion.

I went to wikipedia thinking surely there's a bunch of sports with WC in a single location. It's staggering how many sports there are with World Championships, and I can't find any that are single location, but I didn't do a deep dive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...sports_championships