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Post deleted by spudone [ In reply to ]
Re: Meanwhile in Jerusalem [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Bretom wrote:
SDG wrote:


To put it in context of the United States, the Native American indians could be launching rockets at us from inside their reservations but that would not last long. Historically, we took their land, and now claim it as our own. Why, because we could defeat them in battle. It's the way it has always worked. If they had better warriors or forces, then maybe we are all living in the Cherokee Nation instead of the USA.


Yep, look at all those crappy warriors in the middle. I'd like to imagine Israel would be a little hesitant to explore your analogy further but who knows these days.



If no one else would jump in, I bet Israel would be happy to fight it out and get it settled once and for all.

If I am king mediator, I suggest Israel stop all blockades of Gaza, no more settlements and no harrasing of Arabs that want to cross in and out of Israel to worship.

In exchange, Hamas and the Palestinians have to sign a document denouncing the Hamas charter, acknowledging Israel's rights as a country and claim to the currently held territory, and agreeing to a finalized set of borders and lines of ownership for each party.
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Re: Meanwhile in Jerusalem [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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It doesn't appear that our leaders see it the way you see it with regard to who is the at fault party. They are calling one a Terrorist's Organization and one is simply defending itself.


Secretary of State Antony Blinken noted Thursday that there are "fundamental differences between a terrorist organization, Hamas, that is indiscriminately raining down rockets -- in fact, targeting civilians -- and Israel's response defending itself, that is targeting the terrorists." Biden similarly said that Israel "has a right to defend itself."


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, too, echoed that message. "Israel has the right to defend herself against this assault, which is designed to sow terror and undermine prospects for peace," she said in a statement Tuesday.
"Hamas’s accelerating violence only risks killing more civilians, including innocent Palestinians," Pelosi continued.


In Washington, U.S. President Joe Biden said he spoke with Netanyahu about calming the fighting but also backed the Israeli leader by saying "there has not been a significant overreaction."


I support Biden and Pelosi on this one.
Last edited by: SDG: May 14, 21 7:45
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Re: Meanwhile in Jerusalem [SDG] [ In reply to ]
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SDG wrote:
It doesn't appear that our leaders see it the way you see it with regard to who is the at fault party. They are calling one a Terrorist's Organization and one is simply defending itself.


Secretary of State Antony Blinken noted Thursday that there are "fundamental differences between a terrorist organization, Hamas, that is indiscriminately raining down rockets -- in fact, targeting civilians -- and Israel's response defending itself, that is targeting the terrorists." Biden similarly said that Israel "has a right to defend itself."


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, too, echoed that message. "Israel has the right to defend herself against this assault, which is designed to sow terror and undermine prospects for peace," she said in a statement Tuesday.
"Hamas’s accelerating violence only risks killing more civilians, including innocent Palestinians," Pelosi continued.


In Washington, U.S. President Joe Biden said he spoke with Netanyahu about calming the fighting but also backed the Israeli leader by saying "there has not been a significant overreaction."


I support Biden and Pelosi on this one.

Why haven't you answered my questions yet? Because you appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding here. You said that Hamas runs things in Palestine.

This is not a choice between Israel and Hamas, that sets up a false choice that you are making.
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Re: Meanwhile in Jerusalem [spudone] [ In reply to ]
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spudone wrote:
- both Arabs and Jews want control of the area, particularly Jerusalem
- neither is willing to budge much
- both think they were displaced (Palestinians post-WWII, and Jews in ancient times)
- Israel is the current incumbent

spudone wrote:
Reminds me of the old quote:
"A good compromise is when both parties are dissatisfied."

How to fulfill that quote?

1. make Jerusalem administratively controlled by the U.N. (neither Israel nor Palestine).
2. get Arab league nations to recognize Israel as a nation, and their right to exist.
3. carve out land for a Palestinian state which Israel will recognize in return.

The last one is ridiculously difficult. Israel is fairly tiny and has little land to offer to begin with, and the surrounding Arab nations seem unwilling to do anything on this point either. Moreover, as long as they refuse #2, there's no reason to move on to #3.

Currently, not only do most of them refuse to recognize Israel, but you won't even be allowed in many of those nations if you even have an Israeli stamp on your non-Israeli passport.

It's not surprising so many U.S. attempts at being a peace broker have failed.


Logically, the above captures the essence of it I think. But all of the myriad factions and their own self-interests add even more complexity.

A good read is Shipler's book (pulitzer prize winner) ....
https://www.amazon.com/...omised/dp/0553447513

Shipler was a NYT columnist, in Israel during/after he wrote the first edition. It's still a relevant read today.

ps. I was a kid/teen in Israel and Shipler's son was in the same grade and class as I was. Some other kid's parent was also the Newsweek correspondent at the time (when Newsweek was a thing). I read Shipler's book a few years after moving on from living there. Recommend it.
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Re: Meanwhile in Jerusalem [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
SDG wrote:
It doesn't appear that our leaders see it the way you see it with regard to who is the at fault party. They are calling one a Terrorist's Organization and one is simply defending itself.


Secretary of State Antony Blinken noted Thursday that there are "fundamental differences between a terrorist organization, Hamas, that is indiscriminately raining down rockets -- in fact, targeting civilians -- and Israel's response defending itself, that is targeting the terrorists." Biden similarly said that Israel "has a right to defend itself."


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, too, echoed that message. "Israel has the right to defend herself against this assault, which is designed to sow terror and undermine prospects for peace," she said in a statement Tuesday.
"Hamas’s accelerating violence only risks killing more civilians, including innocent Palestinians," Pelosi continued.


In Washington, U.S. President Joe Biden said he spoke with Netanyahu about calming the fighting but also backed the Israeli leader by saying "there has not been a significant overreaction."


I support Biden and Pelosi on this one.


Why haven't you answered my questions yet? Because you appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding here. You said that Hamas runs things in Palestine.

This is not a choice between Israel and Hamas, that sets up a false choice that you are making.



Do you support Biden and Pelosi on this one? Do you agree Hamas is a terrorist organization as the US states? Not much more to discuss other than that. We have a policy of not bowing to terrorist and defeating them is a stated goal of our country. There is no two sides based upon what we hear from Biden and company. It's Israel v the terrorists.

In a readout of Biden’s call on Wednesday with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the White House said Biden “conveyed his unwavering support for Israel’s security and for Israel’s legitimate right to defend itself and its people.”
Last edited by: SDG: May 14, 21 8:06
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Re: Meanwhile in Jerusalem [SDG] [ In reply to ]
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SDG wrote:
Bretom wrote:
SDG wrote:


To put it in context of the United States, the Native American indians could be launching rockets at us from inside their reservations but that would not last long. Historically, we took their land, and now claim it as our own. Why, because we could defeat them in battle. It's the way it has always worked. If they had better warriors or forces, then maybe we are all living in the Cherokee Nation instead of the USA.


Yep, look at all those crappy warriors in the middle. I'd like to imagine Israel would be a little hesitant to explore your analogy further but who knows these days.




If no one else would jump in, I bet Israel would be happy to fight it out and get it settled once and for all.

If I am king mediator, I suggest Israel stop all blockades of Gaza, no more settlements and no harrasing of Arabs that want to cross in and out of Israel to worship.

In exchange, Hamas and the Palestinians have to sign a document denouncing the Hamas charter, acknowledging Israel's rights as a country and claim to the currently held territory, and agreeing to a finalized set of borders and lines of ownership for each party.

I used to work with a guy from the Palestine. He was sick and tired of Hamas, Fatah, Iran etc. He said lets just have a decent war and settle this endless shit once and for all.
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Re: Meanwhile in Jerusalem [softrun] [ In reply to ]
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I’m assuming you weren’t working in Palestine, hence he wouldn’t be on the ground when his proposed war was happening…
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Re: Meanwhile in Jerusalem [JerseyBigfoot] [ In reply to ]
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I was never in Palestine. As for his proposed war, you know how the saying goes: the further you are from the war, the less chances you have to actually go in one, the braver you are
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