Reality and truth are now considered liabilities in the GOP


GOP Pollster Frank Luntz:


“A Quinnipiac poll showed 76% of self-identified Republicans believed there was widespread fraud in the 2020 election and Trump won. Telling the truth (telling the voters they have been lied to) is simply out of the question for most elected Republicans.”

This is very naive.

For example lets say 2022 a Republican wins the Governorship of Wisconsin. They then pass a law that the state's electoral college electors will be decided by the state legislature. So now 2024, no matter how many Democrats vote, the Wisconsin EC electors are going to Democrats. Sure you say, well Democrats simply need to win the legislature then. But Democrats can't win the legislature, even if Democrats make up 60% of the voters, because of the strong gerrymandering in the state.

How about this example, following the Civil War, the 43 Congress had over 10 Black men. When was the next congress with 10 Black men? The 93rd. That is how well the suppression works.

The fact is that it is very possible to maintain control of the government with a minority of voters. Possibly a very small minority.

You are also not figuring even if Democrats win, that violence (like January 6th, but worse) could be used to nullify the win. The US has a deep history of the losers violently overthrowing the winners and then the losers assuming power.

I hope you are right, but it is silly to think simply having more votes is going to fix an issue.

Failing to reach fair then Fuck fair and just work around the unfair.

With each reading I appreciate more fully your arguments on minority rule. Your Wi example above assumes worst case and require a complicit judiciary ruling against our core democratic principle-voting rights! I know I would feel most comfortable to go to court in this instance if I had a squeaky clean house and all my voters were in compliance with even the most restrictive rules.

Naivety or pragmatism? Minority rule correction amending our constitution or getting out the vote regardless of restrictions? I'll go with the the easier fight and the proactive latter. And, God help us if 06 Jan was not a one off.

Ruth Marcus had a very good Oped in today's Post on this very subject. Also, I just listened to Chris Wallace's interview of Sen. Scott on the subject of Georgia's (?) efforts to halt/restrict voting on Sunday. Talk about a waffle, uncomfortable deflection response. The moral high ground is not on the side of the voting restricters.

The winning hand to be played is simply to put resources, people and money, clone 49 Stacey Abrams's and vote your side in. Effective voter suppression in Jim Crow times was an effective strategy, It is still a strategy, but today it can be overwhelmed such that it is not effective. Just look at Fla and the voters referendum to allow ex felons the right to vote. The pubs in that states' legislature nitpicked the referendum with legislation to include the provision to deny the vote until all fines fees were paid off. In response folks just said play your silly games and then made efforts to find those ex-felons and come up with monies to pay off their debts.

Thread derail apologies to Velocomp and this very significant topic of what it means to be a republican going forward.

1. I have no party.

No, it isn't.

If you look back historically in the U.S., voting restrictions almost exclusively have a racial motivation, usually linked to the South as well. That's why the pre-clearance in the Voting Rights Act was a big deal. A lot of it today is under the legal guise of various ID requirements, but it's the same motivation as the illegal stuff in the past (poll taxes, intimidation, etc).

I'll let a lot of false equivalence go around here, but not this.

No, it isn't.

If you look back historically in the U.S., voting restrictions almost exclusively have a racial motivation, usually linked to the South as well. That's why the pre-clearance in the Voting Rights Act was a big deal. A lot of it today is under the legal guise of various ID requirements, but it's the same motivation as the illegal stuff in the past (poll taxes, intimidation, etc).

I'll let a lot of false equivalence go around here, but not this.

I suspect this is the case because I tend to believe this is the case for most people that are open minded.

I think politics in this country have been boiled down to three groups.

Group one is so embedded into "Their side winning" mentality that nearly nothing matters other than that. These people are the ones that are so easily manipulated into thinking "X" conspiracy or "Y" group is out to get me simply because you only need to show that "they" are against "Your side" winning. This, IMO, is largely a matter of ego. People end up invested in a party because at one time that part did support something they supported and they wanted that something and fought for that something. That "Something" ends up becoming representative of the party and somewhere their ego's have attached them not supporting the party as them admitting they where wrong...lots and lots of people do not want to do that.

Group two are all the people that are simply voting for the "Best of the bad options". These people don't necessarily support the party as much as believe the other party is worse.

The third group are people that have no party because they look at the two parties and see less from both parties that they want to support than they do want to support and realize voting for the "Best ot the bad options" is still a vote AGAINST what they think is right.

In my opinion there isn't much of a difference between group two and group three. These groups tend to be open minded and realistic about their party. One believes the "Don't throw your vote away" mentality while the other doesn't.

It's the first group that ends up being "The base" and thus the ones most catered two by each party.

You see this on both sides. "Trump Madness" on the right and "Bernie Madness" on the left.

I'd like to think that the more rational on the left would easily understand that "Health care for all", "Welfare with no requirements", "Continually increasing Minimum wages", "Unlimited immigration with instant access to all the afore mentioned benefits", "School loan, house loan, debt cancelation" "Unlimited at all levels public education" and on and on is unsustainable. However talk to the base on the left and they believe that indeed not only is this sustainable but easily done and absolutely necessary.

I'd like to think the more rational on the right understand you can't have 700B dollar defense spending, Social Security, "Keep everyone that is not white and protestant out of the country and away from my jobs", "Everything should be made in Merca'", "No taxes" and on and on. However talk the base on the right and that indeed not only is this sustainable but easily done and absolutely necessary.

For what it's worth I've been without a party since I really started paying attention to politics almost 30 years ago now. It does not take a super genius to look at the trajectory of the country over the last 70 years and realize the two parties that people are voting for are really fucking things up.

There is a fourth group, and I am in it. There are people who like their party (for the most part) and what it stands for, and (mostly) the candidates it supports. I have never voted for a D prez candidate I thought would be lousy. I had some doubts about Dukakis, but he was hardly an idiot. My Congressman (Joe Neguse), my senators, Governor, and Biden/Harris are all pretty good so far, given my values. I am not a reluctant Dem, nor do I need to hold my nose when voting for its candidates.

There is a fourth group, and I am in it. There are people who like their party (for the most part) and what it stands for, and (mostly) the candidates it supports. I have never voted for a D prez candidate I thought would be lousy. I had some doubts about Dukakis, but he was hardly an idiot. My Congressman (Joe Neguse), my senators, Governor, and Biden/Harris are all pretty good so far, given my values. I am not a reluctant Dem, nor do I need to hold my nose when voting for its candidates.

A lot of my policy positions align with conservative economy politics. My big issue is that the gop has not actually governed from this platform when they had the chance.

I personally view politics like I do a football team. There is offense and defense only so much money and draft picks.

The gop has been preaching that you need a good defense to win games, grow your own draft picks, don’t over spend on free agents, etc. all things I can agree with. Yet. When they are in power they have been trading all their draft picks for high priced WRs.

Rightly or wrongly that would put you in the first group. The group that truly believes that what "Their side" is doing is the right thing to do. I don't believe that you have to be a complete zealot to be the "Base" and be in the first group, just so far leaning one direction that you generally agree with the leanings of the party.

Whether you believe in "Most" of what your party is doing and do so knowingly because you actually think that is the right thing or if you're doing so because you simply can't admit it's not the right thing is really difficult if not impossible for anyone to discern except the individuals themselves.

I suspect this is the case because I tend to believe this is the case for most people that are open minded.

I think politics in this country have been boiled down to three groups.

Group one is so embedded into "Their side winning" mentality that nearly nothing matters other than that. These people are the ones that are so easily manipulated into thinking "X" conspiracy or "Y" group is out to get me simply because you only need to show that "they" are against "Your side" winning. This, IMO, is largely a matter of ego. People end up invested in a party because at one time that part did support something they supported and they wanted that something and fought for that something. That "Something" ends up becoming representative of the party and somewhere their ego's have attached them not supporting the party as them admitting they where wrong...lots and lots of people do not want to do that.

Group two are all the people that are simply voting for the "Best of the bad options". These people don't necessarily support the party as much as believe the other party is worse.

The third group are people that have no party because they look at the two parties and see less from both parties that they want to support than they do want to support and realize voting for the "Best ot the bad options" is still a vote AGAINST what they think is right.

In my opinion there isn't much of a difference between group two and group three. These groups tend to be open minded and realistic about their party. One believes the "Don't throw your vote away" mentality while the other doesn't.

It's the first group that ends up being "The base" and thus the ones most catered two by each party.

You see this on both sides. "Trump Madness" on the right and "Bernie Madness" on the left.

I'd like to think that the more rational on the left would easily understand that "Health care for all", "Welfare with no requirements", "Continually increasing Minimum wages", "Unlimited immigration with instant access to all the afore mentioned benefits", "School loan, house loan, debt cancelation" "Unlimited at all levels public education" and on and on is unsustainable. However talk to the base on the left and they believe that indeed not only is this sustainable but easily done and absolutely necessary.

I'd like to think the more rational on the right understand you can't have 700B dollar defense spending, Social Security, "Keep everyone that is not white and protestant out of the country and away from my jobs", "Everything should be made in Merca'", "No taxes" and on and on. However talk the base on the right and that indeed not only is this sustainable but easily done and absolutely necessary.

For what it's worth I've been without a party since I really started paying attention to politics almost 30 years ago now. It does not take a super genius to look at the trajectory of the country over the last 70 years and realize the two parties that people are voting for are really fucking things up.

~Matt