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Pouncey gets it
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Maurkice Pouncey joins his teammate (and my favorite baller) Alejandro Villanueva, former Army Ranger and all around good guy/badass, in opting out of the compulsory display of tributes to victims of racially motivated(?) unjust(?) police killings:

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PITTSBURGH -- Steelers captain Maurkice Pouncey on Thursday announced his intention to make his own choice about what name to put on the back of his helmet, becoming the second player to break from the team's decision to wear the name of police shooting victim Antwon Rose Jr. on helmets for the 2020 season.

"I was given limited information on the situation regarding Antwon, and I was unaware of the whole story surrounding his death and what transpired during the trial following the tragedy," Pouncey, a vocal advocate for the police communities in Pittsburgh and in his Florida hometown, wrote in an Instagram post. "I should have done more research to fully understand what occurred in its entirety.

"... Make no mistake, I am against racism and I believe the best thing I can do is to continue helping repair relationships between the police and their communities."


Good for him. If you're a willing participant in thoughtlessly promoting a divisive political agenda, you're part of the problem. Pounce knows his community and the LEO community and actually cares about the facts and not doing more harm than good.

Per the jury foreman:



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Rawls said the Pennsylvania law that police officers are justified in using force when they believe it is necessary to prevent death or serious injury to themselves or others was a big factor in the jury’s decision. Rosfeld’s testimony also played a part in convincing the jury of his innocence.

“When he got on the stand and he talked, I could see that he was terribly upset,” Rawls said. “You have to follow the rule of the law. He said ‘I saw his (Rose’s) hand and I thought he had a gun. And I shot.’’’

Rawls said he believes that even an all-black jury would have come to the same conclusion as the mostly white jury did in this case.

“If they went in with the same thought process that I had, they would. If they went in with a clear mind and listened to the evidence and followed the guidelines, they would have,” he said.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Sep 17, 20 16:29
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Re: Pouncey gets it [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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Agree 100%. Nice to see people think for themselves once in a while...
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Re: Pouncey gets it [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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With the consistent narrative that so many innocent black people are gunned down by the police, it’s confusing to me that people keep choosing such poor examples to honor. My understanding is that Rose was either driving a car that conducted a drive-by shooting in the minutes before his shooting, or he was the shooter. He had gunshot residue on his hands and a firearm, as did his friends in the car. His car had bullet holes in it and obviously matched the description of the drive-by car.

Why anyone would choose this kid’s name as one to single out for particular honor doesn’t make sense to me.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Last edited by: slowguy: Sep 17, 20 16:19
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Re: Pouncey gets it [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I think you've got your Pounceys crossed up, at least in the first sentence. Mike plays for the <retching sounds> Chargers.



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Good for him. If you're a willing participant in thoughtlessly promoting a divisive political agenda, you're part of the problem


Isn't that kinda of harsh? This isn't a zero sum game. Just because Rosfeld wasn't found criminally guilty doesn't necessarily make what he did right. He was fired, apparently lied in some of his testimony during the investigation. And he lost his wrongful termination lawsuit outright.

Just being "not guilty" of homicide is the lowest possible bar relative to what good suspect-LEO interactions should be.

Edit: On reading more about the case, I agree that Rose isn't very sympathetic, and it was a complex situation. So I retract a little bit of the above.


Last edited by: trail: Sep 17, 20 16:26
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Re: Pouncey gets it [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
I think you've got your Pouncey's crossed up, at least in the first sentence. Mike plays for the <retching sounds> Chargers.



Quote:
Good for him. If you're a willing participant in thoughtlessly promoting a divisive political agenda, you're part of the problem


Isn't that kinda of harsh? This isn't a zero sum game. Just because Rosfeld wasn't found criminally guilty doesn't necessarily make what he did right. He was fired, apparently lied in some of his testimony during the investigation. And he lost his wrongful termination lawsuit outright.

Just being "not guilty" of homicide is the lowest possible bar relative to what good suspect-LEO interactions should be.

Edit: On reading more about the case, I agree that Rose isn't very sympathetic, and it was a complex situation. So I retract a little bit of the above.





I don’t think anyone is saying anything about the cop. The question is whether the name of a drive-by shooter is what you should be honoring on national television.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Pouncey gets it [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
I don’t think anyone is saying anything about the cop.

Half of sphere's OP was about the jury foreman in the cop's trial, and how he was found not guilty. So it's a little bit about the cop.

It's tough. All a cop has to say is, "I thought I saw a gun," and that's usually sufficient to get not guilty. Even if the person is running away, since they could still be a threat tot the public. I'm sure some significant fraction of time that's absolutely valid.

I don't know a good way around that. If you require that the person *actually* had a gun or else the cop goes to jail, then I understand that a lot of cops would reasonably not want to be cops anymore.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
In this day & age, I understand why a lot of cops would reasonably not want to be cops anymore.

Bold is my addition to the quoted part......

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
slowguy wrote:

I don’t think anyone is saying anything about the cop.


Half of sphere's OP was about the jury foreman in the cop's trial, and how he was found not guilty. So it's a little bit about the cop.

It's tough. All a cop has to say is, "I thought I saw a gun," and that's usually sufficient to get not guilty. Even if the person is running away, since they could still be a threat tot the public. I'm sure some significant fraction of time that's absolutely valid.

I don't know a good way around that. If you require that the person *actually* had a gun or else the cop goes to jail, then I understand that a lot of cops would reasonably not want to be cops anymore.

I think a not guilty verdict doesn’t justify the cops actions. It just says there wasn’t sufficient evidence to convict him of a crime. It goes to the knee jerk reaction people have to these cases. As the foreman said, if you look at it with a clear mind and a willingness to see the evidence for what it is, you might come to a different conclusion than what’s pushed on TV and social media. Same thing when you look at the victim with a clear mind, and don’t just swallow a narrative handed to you.

It is a tough issue to deal with cops having to make a call about use of deadly force, and the extent to which we want to demand that they justify their actions after the fact. I’m sure you’ve heard the feeling expressed before that you’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. You don’t want cops who are careless about making the decision to shoot, or who get skittish and shoot, or who are actively looking for the opportunity to shoot, but you need them to protect themselves and the public.

I don’t know a lot of cops, but I’ve known a lot of Soldiers and Marines and not many of them were excited about having had to shoot at anyone, much less having actually killed people. I would assume cops are roughly similar.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Pouncey gets it [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to see the NFL players encouraging people not to resist arrest or fight the police, and avoid threatening moves. They could still kneel and say that LEO needs improvement, because it does, but this could have an impact that saves some lives in the meantime.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [rick_pcfl] [ In reply to ]
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This. It takes two to tango. The job of a LEO would be much easier if the general public were educated in how to handle interactions and the interactions would be smoother and drama free. An entitled population that "knows their rights" (they usually don't) doesn't help things.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t think anyone is saying anything about the cop. The question is whether the name of a drive-by shooter is what you should be honoring on national television.


More than that, millions of American eyeballs will see that name on those helmets, and an exceptionally small fraction know or will bother to learn anything about the case, and the fact that it's reached the level of NFL attention, the vast majority who care about such things will reflexively add him to the growing list of black men unjustly killed by racist cops. So on the whole, it works in direct opposition to what Mr Pouncey has spent his free time advocating for--better, not worse, police-community relations.

He did the responsible thing. I'm frankly disappointed that the Steelers organization pushed that on the team with apparently little or no discussion about it. But at least they're defending the players who choose to opt out.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Sep 17, 20 18:54
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Re: Pouncey gets it [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:

If you're a willing participant in thoughtlessly promoting a divisive political agenda, you're part of the problem.

So you have evidence that no other player in the league thought about what they were doing? As far as what's divisive, idk, the players seem pretty united about it and different teams are doing things different ways (which is good, it indicates the team talked about it). To the extent some people are complaining about it, it means they are still interested in and following the league, so its hard for me to say its divisive if everyone is still in the tent. If there was radio silence and all the sponsors and advertisers were leaving you might have a point about being divisive, but we haven't seen that yet. Maybe this will be the year no one watches the Superbowl.

Good for Pouncey, I'm all about people standing up for what they believe in. Let us know when the other players and the league criticize him or tell him his protest is not allowed.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
This. It takes two to tango. The job of a LEO would be much easier if the general public were educated in how to handle interactions and the interactions would be smoother and drama free. An entitled population that "knows their rights" (they usually don't) doesn't help things.

I struggle with your statements. Are you saying we should forego our rights (especially our constitutional ones) in order to make the job of our protectors (LEOs) better? Why have a legal right if exercising it is a problem?

For instance, answering Qs. Just because a LEO asks a Q doesn't mean you have to answer it. Sure, that makes their job more difficult. But that is a constitutional right.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:

Maurkice Pouncey joins his teammate (and my favorite baller) Alejandro Villanueva, former Army Ranger and all around good guy/badass, in opting out of the compulsory display of tributes to victims of racially motivated(?) unjust(?) police killings:

Quote:
PITTSBURGH -- Steelers captain Maurkice Pouncey on Thursday announced his intention to make his own choice about what name to put on the back of his helmet, becoming the second player to break from the team's decision to wear the name of police shooting victim Antwon Rose Jr. on helmets for the 2020 season.

"I was given limited information on the situation regarding Antwon, and I was unaware of the whole story surrounding his death and what transpired during the trial following the tragedy," Pouncey, a vocal advocate for the police communities in Pittsburgh and in his Florida hometown, wrote in an Instagram post. "I should have done more research to fully understand what occurred in its entirety.

"... Make no mistake, I am against racism and I believe the best thing I can do is to continue helping repair relationships between the police and their communities."


Good for him. If you're a willing participant in thoughtlessly promoting a divisive political agenda, you're part of the problem. Pounce knows his community and the LEO community and actually cares about the facts and not doing more harm than good.

Per the jury foreman:



Quote:
Rawls said the Pennsylvania law that police officers are justified in using force when they believe it is necessary to prevent death or serious injury to themselves or others was a big factor in the jury’s decision. Rosfeld’s testimony also played a part in convincing the jury of his innocence.

“When he got on the stand and he talked, I could see that he was terribly upset,” Rawls said. “You have to follow the rule of the law. He said ‘I saw his (Rose’s) hand and I thought he had a gun. And I shot.’’’

Rawls said he believes that even an all-black jury would have come to the same conclusion as the mostly white jury did in this case.

“If they went in with the same thought process that I had, they would. If they went in with a clear mind and listened to the evidence and followed the guidelines, they would have,” he said.

The whole league should follow Alejandro Villanueva lead. He's one of the few "role models" in the NFL.

Not including him I read a funny gif. Why do the football players wear a criminal's name on their helmet when they already wear one on their jersey?
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Re: Pouncey gets it [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
sphere wrote:

If you're a willing participant in thoughtlessly promoting a divisive political agenda, you're part of the problem.


So you have evidence that no other player in the league thought about what they were doing?.


No, I don’t, and I don’t know why that would matter, since I’m talking specifically about Pouncey. He said *he* didn’t have all the facts, and now having done some reading on the subject, he’s opting out now that he knows more about the case.

I don’t know what other players know and don’t know, if and what they’ve read, what their conclusions are, and that’s irrelevant to the point. My larger concern is in what I replied to slowguy above—contributing to the perception of racist white cops killing black men indiscriminately, facts and truth be damned. I’m saying he did the right thing by forming his own opinion based on what he’s learned, and choosing to do what he feels is in the best interest of police-community relations. It’s probably not the most comfortable thing to do, for a high profile black athlete to appear to publicly side with law enforcement in the BLM era in the case of the shooting of a young black man. That takes courage.

The subtext of Pouncey’s statement was, he’s against racism, he supports the cause, he doesn’t believe this case is an example of racist police violence, and he’s not going to pretend that it does and risk further harm to police-community relations.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Sep 18, 20 4:47
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Re: Pouncey gets it [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
The subtext of Pouncey’s statement was, he’s against racism, he supports the cause, he doesn’t believe this case is an example of racist police violence, and he’s not going to pretend that it does and risk further harm to police-community relations.

He should probably start with his twin brother if he wants to make the world a better place.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
sphere wrote:

Maurkice Pouncey joins his teammate (and my favorite baller) Alejandro Villanueva, former Army Ranger and all around good guy/badass, in opting out of the compulsory display of tributes to victims of racially motivated(?) unjust(?) police killings:

Quote:
PITTSBURGH -- Steelers captain Maurkice Pouncey on Thursday announced his intention to make his own choice about what name to put on the back of his helmet, becoming the second player to break from the team's decision to wear the name of police shooting victim Antwon Rose Jr. on helmets for the 2020 season.

"I was given limited information on the situation regarding Antwon, and I was unaware of the whole story surrounding his death and what transpired during the trial following the tragedy," Pouncey, a vocal advocate for the police communities in Pittsburgh and in his Florida hometown, wrote in an Instagram post. "I should have done more research to fully understand what occurred in its entirety.

"... Make no mistake, I am against racism and I believe the best thing I can do is to continue helping repair relationships between the police and their communities."


Good for him. If you're a willing participant in thoughtlessly promoting a divisive political agenda, you're part of the problem. Pounce knows his community and the LEO community and actually cares about the facts and not doing more harm than good.

Per the jury foreman:



Quote:
Rawls said the Pennsylvania law that police officers are justified in using force when they believe it is necessary to prevent death or serious injury to themselves or others was a big factor in the jury’s decision. Rosfeld’s testimony also played a part in convincing the jury of his innocence.

“When he got on the stand and he talked, I could see that he was terribly upset,” Rawls said. “You have to follow the rule of the law. He said ‘I saw his (Rose’s) hand and I thought he had a gun. And I shot.’’’

Rawls said he believes that even an all-black jury would have come to the same conclusion as the mostly white jury did in this case.

“If they went in with the same thought process that I had, they would. If they went in with a clear mind and listened to the evidence and followed the guidelines, they would have,” he said.


The whole league should follow Alejandro Villanueva lead. He's one of the few "role models" in the NFL.

Not including him I read a funny gif. Why do the football players wear a criminal's name on their helmet when they already wear one on their jersey?

that's not a funny gif. That's just a douchey thing to say.

Why would they have Breonna Taylor's name on a helmet? I mean, she associated with a known criminal. What did she expect? There is a segment of the population that will ALWAYS find a problem with protest against racial insensitivity. Selecting Rose was putting an unnecessary burden and possibly indefensible reasoning on them. Good on Pounce for recognizing the pass was going to bounce a couple of feet before the intended receiver.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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Agree re; NFL players being stereotyped as criminals. Fairly sure the data doesn’t support that whatsoever relatively speaking.

I truly don’t understand what Breonna Taylor’s death has to do with racism. Bad policing tactics, absolutely. But why is that lumped in with Black Lives Matter if it’s a tactic that they would use regardless of the race of the suspect? What specifically is the point of including her in that conversation, and I’m asking that sincerely.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
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Re: Pouncey gets it [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
Agree re; NFL players being stereotyped as criminals. Fairly sure the data doesn’t support that whatsoever relatively speaking.

I truly don’t understand what Breonna Taylor’s death has to do with racism. Bad policing tactics, absolutely. But why is that lumped in with Black Lives Matter if it’s a tactic that they would use regardless of the race of the suspect? What specifically is the point of including her in that conversation, and I’m asking that sincerely.

good question and honestly, that was probably me more than the general public. Her name is typically invoked when discussing police tactics. Her being a minority has the unintended consequence of being lumped into the BLM discussion simply due to the timing of her death.
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Re: Pouncey gets it [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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Another case in point:

Iowa man, Michael Williams, killed by people he's known for years, drug involvement is almost a certainty, investigation concludes the killing was not random, and race was not a factor in the homicide.

CNN headline:

Four arrested after Black man's body found burning in a ditch in Iowa

From the article:

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Grinnell College canceled classes on Monday "to recommit ourselves to equity and inclusion and to recognize the violent loss of one of our community," adding that "national context has become local experience," according to a statement from the school's president and the school's chief diversity officer.

"This stark and brutal murder in the national context of racial injustice has struck intense fear for safety of our Black, Indigenous, and People of Color (BIPOC) colleagues, friends, and families," President Anne Harris wrote in the statement.

"We live in a predominantly white community and work in a predominantly white college. The murder of Mr. Williams is an incident that is rare in the experience of most Iowans. But for many people of color, this incident is the most recent in an accumulated history of prejudice, mistreatment, and murder," the statement said.

In canceling classes, Harris hopes students think of actions that can be taken to build the community and prevent further suffering.


This is a self-perpetuating perception problem with no end in sight.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Sep 22, 20 15:09
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