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JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer
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In one of those swim threads that none of you guys open Jason posted about the 60x50m on 60 workout is all you need to get better at swimming (go open that thread to read the discussion),

however taking from 50's in the pool on for some time when time pressed I'll hit the trainer after a run and launch immediately into a set of 20-30x60 seconds with 10 seconds of rest. I am trying to do these at 100-120% of my rough FTP range. It averages out to just over 90% FTP including the rest. I think my brain may blow up trying 60 of them, but 30 minutes on the trainer banging out some intensity after a run has been a good workout that allows me to get my bike legs when I can get outdoors.

So today as part of the 100/100 I decided to give it a go on the treadmill. I did a 5 min warmup and then 30x50 seconds with 10 seconds rest and then did a 5 min cooldown. for the 50 second duty cycle, I would do a few at 5% grade at my half IM race speed and the others at zero percent grade at my olympic to sprint tri speed (OK no jokes about my speed I am working on it).

But mainly just like swimming that rest period allowed me to work my body wiht decent form at a slightly higher clip and not break down. So now we have Daniel's mile repeats that he stole from 400m swimmers and we have Jason's treadmill surges that I stole from his swim thread.

Please give both the bike and run versions and try and report back on how you found them. I think they are good for time pressed days and you want some decent quality without going deep into the tank that the same amount of intensity without breaks would result in.
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
In one of those swim threads that none of you guys open Jason posted about the 60x50m on 60 workout is all you need to get better at swimming (go open that thread to read the discussion),

however taking from 50's in the pool on for some time when time pressed I'll hit the trainer after a run and launch immediately into a set of 20-30x60 seconds with 10 seconds of rest. I am trying to do these at 100-120% of my rough FTP range. It averages out to just over 90% FTP including the rest. I think my brain may blow up trying 60 of them, but 30 minutes on the trainer banging out some intensity after a run has been a good workout that allows me to get my bike legs when I can get outdoors.

So today as part of the 100/100 I decided to give it a go on the treadmill. I did a 5 min warmup and then 30x50 seconds with 10 seconds rest and then did a 5 min cooldown. for the 50 second duty cycle, I would do a few at 5% grade at my half IM race speed and the others at zero percent grade at my olympic to sprint tri speed (OK no jokes about my speed I am working on it).

But mainly just like swimming that rest period allowed me to work my body wiht decent form at a slightly higher clip and not break down. So now we have Daniel's mile repeats that he stole from 400m swimmers and we have Jason's treadmill surges that I stole from his swim thread.

Please give both the bike and run versions and try and report back on how you found them. I think they are good for time pressed days and you want some decent quality without going deep into the tank that the same amount of intensity without breaks would result in.

I'll be getting on the bike tonight (I hope). give that a shot.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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That’s pretty much how I trained an athlete who qualified for Kona.

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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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That’s % of FTP for the bike seems high to me for this workout (maybe not 100%, but certainly 120). I didn’t think this workout was supposed to be so intense, but welcome Jason’s thoughts.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Dec 10, 19 12:46
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
That’s % of FTP for the bike seems high to me for this workout (maybe not 100%, but certainly 120). I didn’t think this workout was supposed to be so intense, but welcome Jason’s thoughts.

Well, I don’t have a pm at the moment, so it’ll be a bit of a guess as to what % FTP I’m doing. 120% is definitely too high though.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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How do you do your treadmill rest for 10 seconds? feet off the belt? Or does your treadmill adjust speed fast enough?
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
That’s % of FTP for the bike seems high to me for this workout (maybe not 100%, but certainly 120). I didn’t think this workout was supposed to be so intense, but welcome Jason’s thoughts.

120 is just a surge finishing off, not the entire thing. My ftp guess is 250-255 range and I do most of it around 265 -280 ...surge to 300 at the end of some or the start of some of them to see how I hold with lactate build up....then I may do a few at 250 to recover.....almost like a bit of fly or breast stroke in a free set
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [brando] [ In reply to ]
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brando wrote:
How do you do your treadmill rest for 10 seconds? feet off the belt? Or does your treadmill adjust speed fast enough?

Keep treadmill at speed put hands on rails and do a press and get your feet off and on sides....rest for 8 seconds and take one second to launch yourself onto moving belt initially holding body up with both hands and turn your legs like roadrunner....then let go of hands
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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That type of workout has an Igloi vibe - interval based. There isn't much information on Igloi, and the method evolved in different directions, but more background here:. Some runners have used it very successfully (e.g. Johnny Gray). I've trained using this approach and it's effective, but the problem is that it's easy to overdo things.

Would you do a workout like this once or twice a week? (and the rest easy running) Only if time crunched? Or would you do intervals on a regular basis modulating effort/rest to keep things under control? Also, if you add swimming/biking (I've been following the other swimming thread) - would that mean less interval sessions (and instead more recovery jogs)?
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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His original post recommended doing 2hours of 120x50 five times per week

If any person does 2 hours of intensity for any sport five times per week, you are going to get stronger. Not exactly rocket science. Really doesn't seem that efficient either...
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [indianacyclist] [ In reply to ]
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indianacyclist wrote:
His original post recommended doing 2hours of 120x50 five times per week

If any person does 2 hours of intensity for any sport five times per week, you are going to get stronger. Not exactly rocket science. Really doesn't seem that efficient either...
D


I was honing in on the 50 second on 10 second off more than how many times per week and how many of them in one session.

I would just do them as many 50's per week spread over the three sports in my aggregate volume that I could handle. My rough feeling is I could handle around 100 of them running, 120 biking and 200 swimming spread over a 15hrs training week. That is roughly 9 hrs of moving fast, but with the rest period the recovery to the next workout is quicker.
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
That’s pretty much how I trained an athlete who qualified for Kona.

I am curious how you structured things for you KQ athlete. I have the dubai 70.3 in 8 weeks and there will be zero outdoor riding due to snow (unless I borrow a fat bike which I may), but aside from 60 minute rides structured in this rough manner did your KQ athlete get out for longer rides or was it all short durations on the trainer with intensity.

I should have 14-16 hrs per week so overall volume will be there I doubt I will have 2.5 hrs bike specificity though. I will likely do a few easy 2 to 2.5 hrs rides early on race week and that will be it. I will have several 2 hour swims in the lead up and some 2-2.5 hrs sessions on xc skis which always translated to good bike TT specificity
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [JEI] [ In reply to ]
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I thought about Igloi too when I saw that.

I like the idea and am a fan of learning from different sports.

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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I must admit, I didn't read Jason's full thread, but I agree.

However, converting it to a bike workout, you've gotta consider some stuff. If you're doing 60 second swim intervals, are you making the 50s on :30, :40 or :50. Because there is a massive difference between a 1:1 work/rest ratio, a 2:1 work/rest ratio, and a 5:1 work/rest ratio.

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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [lessthaneight] [ In reply to ]
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lessthaneight wrote:
I must admit, I didn't read Jason's full thread, but I agree.

However, converting it to a bike workout, you've gotta consider some stuff. If you're doing 60 second swim intervals, are you making the 50s on :30, :40 or :50. Because there is a massive difference between a 1:1 work/rest ratio, a 2:1 work/rest ratio, and a 5:1 work/rest ratio.

Well, my 50's in the pool are anywhere from 42 seconds to 57 depending on stroke so in my original post on this thread I was talking about 60 second "departure" and that my rest was 10 second meaning 50 seconds work 10 seconds on no work do 5:1 ratio
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:


I was honing in on the 50 second on 10 second off more than how many times per week and how many of them in one session.

I would just do them as many 50's per week spread over the three sports in my aggregate volume that I could handle. My rough feeling is I could handle around 100 of them running, 120 biking and 200 swimming spread over a 15hrs training week. That is roughly 9 hrs of moving fast, but with the rest period the recovery to the next workout is quicker.

That's more like 5:50 hrs of moving fast (420x50s)---roughly 40% of total training time. My guess is that's a bit much....but, swimming skews that quite a bit. I'm not a strict 80/20 or Seiler adherant. But, I think his data can be used to inform the probable sweet spot to (at least) start from. His data would suggest something more in the 10% (as a function of time-in-zone). Again, give that swimming can handle "more"...maybe it should be closer to 20% including swimming. But, 40% is likely on the wrong side of the limit.

So, I'd be more inclined to start at less than half of your numbers (50, 60, 100)...and build from there tracking rate of improvement for when you tip over the other side. Honestly, I think 50s is too short...and that a longer interval would be more time-efficient...for any event longer than a sprint.
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:



I was honing in on the 50 second on 10 second off more than how many times per week and how many of them in one session.

I would just do them as many 50's per week spread over the three sports in my aggregate volume that I could handle. My rough feeling is I could handle around 100 of them running, 120 biking and 200 swimming spread over a 15hrs training week. That is roughly 9 hrs of moving fast, but with the rest period the recovery to the next workout is quicker.


That's more like 5:50 hrs of moving fast (420x50s)---roughly 40% of total training time. My guess is that's a bit much....but, swimming skews that quite a bit. I'm not a strict 80/20 or Seiler adherant. But, I think his data can be used to inform the probable sweet spot to (at least) start from. His data would suggest something more in the 10% (as a function of time-in-zone). Again, give that swimming can handle "more"...maybe it should be closer to 20% including swimming. But, 40% is likely on the wrong side of the limit.

So, I'd be more inclined to start at less than half of your numbers (50, 60, 100)...and build from there tracking rate of improvement for when you tip over the other side. Honestly, I think 50s is too short...and that a longer interval would be more time-efficient...for any event longer than a sprint.

Let me fix that...I had 300 of them in my head for swimming, but I typed 200. So 300+120+100 ~520. I'd count that at almost 9 hrs at intensity because during the 10 second break your heart rate is pretty high. With the skew towards swimming, I think its doable because you recover quickly in between workouts with this format vs longer intervals (especially running).

I used to do another workout that was 25 laps of a 400m track with 100m at 10km race pace and 100m jogging. That was great to move legs at speed with almost zero recovery penalty given the long rest in between....that's more 1:1 though....much easier than 5:1 ratio
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Typical Dev.... You're nothing if not consistent.

Tom: "uh Dev? Don't you think that's a bit much?"

Dev: "you're right I miscalculated.... I meant 30% MORE!"

LOL
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Dunno how closely you follow things, but I'm also a big fan of sebastian weber's work, and all this is pretty much anathema to everything he talks about if you want to build aerobic endurance, at least if you're doing 50 sec all-out intervals.
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
Typical Dev.... You're nothing if not consistent.

Tom: "uh Dev? Don't you think that's a bit much?"

Dev: "you're right I miscalculated.... I meant 30% MORE!"

LOL

I don't think 5 hrs of swimming intensity, 1.5 hrs of running intensity and 2 hrs of bike intensity is insane and when I say intensity, this is not crazy high stuff. It's around the intensity that one could do 50's in the pool every workout all week. It's a bit less than what JasoninHalifax was talking about in the context of Sutto's original which I think was 10 workouts of 1 hour as 60x50 but now some is moved to land.

But if I look at this as 9 hrs of harder stuff and another 5-6 hrs of easy stuff for a 14-15 hrs week (roughly 2 hrs of training per day program), its doable for me (I'm a 700+ hrs per year person for 40 or so years, so my base may be larger than most around here). But if you just stuck to the 9 hrs and did nothing else than short warmups and maybe build into some of the 50's at the back end of the warmup, then its a really solid 10 hrs per week plan.
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I get it. But, what your suggesting is a training week that consists of 75% zone3 training. Almost nobody has ever proposed that as an effective training plan for anything. There's nothing wrong with the occasional z3 session, but as the sole stimulus? Nuh-uh. Better harder AND easier.

Maybe your body is robust enough to tolerate day after day, week after week, month after month of z3 running, and cycling... And swimming. Very few are. There's really no athlete at any level (that I know of) that trains that way. I wonder why?

From a running perspective its sort of the definition of how to end up with an overuse injury. From an overall plan point of view its the definition of how to end up in an overtraining death spiral.

As I said above, it's what amounts to a stupid human trick. Nothing wrong with that. We are in the middle of a stupid human trick... The 100/100. Sure it will work for a while. Then it won't.

There are better ways to design a training plan than doing 50:10 intervals every day.
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are underestimating the impact of the 10 seconds rest during 60 second departure set. If you do 30 min where the work cycle is at 100% FTP with each minute having 1/6th of the time at zero, this only works out to averaging 83 percent FTP for the entire duration. This is why swimmers can seamingly do so much intensity...because they are resting a lot unlike runners and cyclists who keep pedaling in between intervals.

On the other hand 25 minutes continuous at 100% FTP followed by 5 minutes of doing nothing at all would be waaaaaay harder than 30x(50 s @100% + 10 seconds 0%). Have you tried it to see how much easier it is than 25 min continuous at 100%. Likewise 30x50m @1500m swim race pace is waaaay easier than 1500m continuous at race pace. I could repeat the 30x50 every workout and it would barely feel that hard. If I did the 1500m once at full gas race pace, my arms are heavy for 2 days.
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Re: JasoninHalifax's swimming made simple workout for treadmill and trainer [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, while I agree with others that 70% of a training week being hard is a bit extreme, here's my take on the interval structure you're proposing as it applies to cycling (I had an extended block where I trained this way). I had a time period where I had a lot of external stresses, and a lot of non-triathlon physical stresses from the Army, and I was coached by a really good coach. Most, if not all, of my bike training was indoors for time efficacy and because a fair amount was at odd hours (I've got no issue doing a long run in the middle of the night..biking not so much). On top of that, I was rolling with some pretty heavy physical fatigue and the mental/physical burn of doing longer threshold sets indoors made it a non-starter 9/10 attempts.

My coach's solution for that time period was to do a TON of 20-60sec intervals. Instead of doing a long ride with 4x10min tempo, I would do 2h with 4x(10-15x60sec@100-105% FTP + 20sec ez) on 5min rest or whatever between sets. Still got in 40min, mostly at >FTP instead of the usual 88-92%. When it was VO2 day, we'd do 4-5x(5x60sec @ 120% or higher + 30sec spin), starting a set every 10min.

My notes for you are that this was an extremely effective way of maintaining bike fitness, but not of improving it (which was fine, because we were just happy to be holding on to what I had). I improved far better on the exact same volume (3-6h/week) when doing a diet of 1 session VO2 (usually 4x4min best effort on 2-4' recovery, or 6x3min etc), 1 session of super high end (20x60sec @ 130%), and one session of tempo (usually 60 total minutes spent at 85-95% in a 90min ride). Even on a diet of only 30-45min rides, if you have the recovery ability I'd stick to one day of 10' WU + 4x4min best effort on 2min rest + 10min CD (44min total), one day 10-20' WU + 20-30min TT + CD (30-45'), and one day of 10' WU + 30x(30sec best effort/30sec easy) + 5min CD (45min). I've run this for several months and got stronger over anything up to 40k.

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