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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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BGildenstern wrote:
Haha when did 9% at 175 stop getting classified as lean. I’m vascular, have a visible 6 pack and 29 inch waist.

I’m good at losing weight. I have dirty bulked and subsequently cut losing 40 pounds in 4 months on multiple occasions. I have done intermittent fasting all the way down to only a 1 hour eating window and years of Keto.
Now I just eat a lot of veggies, lots of protein, lots of fruit and nuts. My diet is clean.

The point want always that if I diet/train 25hrs a week, and stopped lifting my body will not lose any muscle. Which is fine because I have never wanted it to lose muscle. The discussion was mainly how significant of an impact would losing that muscle be because if significant then I would consciously lose some muscle.

I do want to start competing for AG Champ in the next year so think getting down to 165 is the goal

If that’s your goal, lose 10 lbs and see. Do it slowly. Your health issues may be from how rapidly you lose it. Take a whole year.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [Culley22] [ In reply to ]
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There's no shame in maximizing body composition and performance. It's a rewarding journey that requires a lot of sacrifice and dedication, even if it doesn't mean reaching the podium.

A better question is why bother competing if you're not interested in giving it 100% in all facets? I've given up alcohol and adopted a vegan diet since January. Its involved a lot of sacrifices, but I feel my lifestyle and performance benefits have been well worth it. I keep improving incrementally so I find the journey of a very healthy lifestyle to be the reward.

Culley22 wrote:
plant_based wrote:
Culley22 wrote:
But I also DO NOT want to lose the muscle I worked long and hard to get. I’d rather finished last but look good doing so, then be first and look like a twig that is scared of a good steak. That concentration camp look just isn’t a good one (IMO).


I agree with this - avoiding the twig look. I'm nervous about going full twig without going pro. Would be scary. I'm not close to twig or pro currently...

But, muscle isn't really that hard to earn back. If you get lean first and then tell your body you need more muscle (ie for the bike), it will rebuild the muscle.
If you're going to be competitive as a pro...then i'd go full twig in a heartbeat. But if you're going to finish, at best, 8-15 range of placing...but never really sniff the lead, then F that. Then you're a loser(if you're not first, you're last) AND a twig. lol
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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BGildenstern wrote:
Haha when did 9% at 175 stop getting classified as lean. I’m vascular, have a visible 6 pack and 29 inch waist.

I’m good at losing weight. I have dirty bulked and subsequently cut losing 40 pounds in 4 months on multiple occasions. I have done intermittent fasting all the way down to only a 1 hour eating window and years of Keto.
Now I just eat a lot of veggies, lots of protein, lots of fruit and nuts. My diet is clean.

The point want always that if I diet/train 25hrs a week, and stopped lifting my body will not lose any muscle. Which is fine because I have never wanted it to lose muscle. The discussion was mainly how significant of an impact would losing that muscle be because if significant then I would consciously lose some muscle.

I do want to start competing for AG Champ in the next year so think getting down to 165 is the goal

I think he means that you should first try to get down to 5% BF. If you lose that fat, you will be faster. If you want to lose more than that, you will have to lose muscle and you do that by eating less.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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How old are you (haven't read all the comments) ?
Muscle mass is only one performance factor in endurance sports. Yes, an important one, but it doesn't provide the full portrait about an athlete/individual. Some "heavy" athletes are great endurance athletes because of a bunch of factors, namely gifted by a high VO2 ,etc...
I've been close to the cycling world for a few decades. Where losing weight is the major task of the vast majority who hope to raise their level.
But the short answer to this is: -" nobody knows really what it will do to YOURSELF". Theoretically, or better said "intuititively" one would assume that less weight, means less body cells, thus the need for oxygen is decreased and you'll likely go faster in your sport. But human metabolism is more complicated than that.
So in my personal experience, the cycling world, besides one exception in MTB here where a local guy scores to 20 in World Cups at 6'4'' 180 lbs+ ( he was the biggest cycling athlete at the Rio Olympics), I've never seen athletes that are good, or very good ( cat.1 ) , but a tad too heavy, raise their levels as to become conti level pros. MOst of them got to a point where losing weight was the only solution left, and they all ended up short. They lost the weight. But the result was either their performances collapse dramatically, or at best, don't increase to allow them to "graduate" to another level.

I'm thinking of another topic where the OP asked for the "average Joe's" FTP. Funny enough, lots of people answered 4 watts/kg. I can understand all the under 150 lbs guys having no difficulty to push those watts, but for the 160 + lbs guys, pushing 4watts/kg is another task.

So if you want to know, it's a fun task to try, since trathlon is an "old man's" sport ( lol), you have time to experience many many things ;-)...

Louis :-)
Last edited by: louisn: Aug 20, 19 16:22
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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plant_based wrote:
BGildenstern wrote:

I’m good at losing weight. I have dirty bulked and subsequently cut losing 40 pounds in 4 months on multiple occasions. I have done intermittent fasting all the way down to only a 1 hour eating window and years of Keto.


damn

Yeah I dirty bulked too to try to gain muscle against the advice of a close few people. It was rough for me. I was too hard on my achilles and tore both as I was pushing myself too hard with the extra weight and my tendons couldn't take it.

What is your goal IM time or do you just want to get a Kona slot or win Kona?

Edit: I saw you want AG champ - what kind of time is that -


Mentally, dirty bulking it brutal too! I was up to 225, none of my clothes fit and looked fat to anyone who didn't lift. Depressing AF but i committed. After I got back lean I gained a total of 10 pounds in that 8 months which I was thrilled with. Finally got me 17inch arms and a solid lower back christmas tree I always dreamed of lol

I actually have zero interest in Kona. I know its the holy grail of Ironman and I'm probably alone on this but it just doesn't entice me very much. Maybe one day i'll qualify and break but not on my radar.
I would say my first goal would be to get into the lower 4s for a 70.3 and then get around 9hrs on a decent course. I am flirting with the idea of Ironman Texas next April so if I did the goal would be sub 9.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [louisn] [ In reply to ]
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louisn wrote:
How old are you (haven't read all the comments) ?
Muscle mass is only one performance factor in endurance sports. Yes, an important one, but it doesn't provide the full portrait about an athlete/individual. Some "heavy" athletes are great endurance athletes because of a bunch of factors, namely gifted by a high VO2 ,etc...
I've been close to the cycling world for a few decades. Where losing weight is the major task of the vast majority who hope to raise their level.
But the short answer to this is: -" nobody knows really what it will do to YOURSELF". Theoretically, or better said "intuititively" one would assume that less weight, means less body cells, thus the need for oxygen is decreased and you'll likely go faster in your sport. But human metabolism is more complicated than that.
So in my personal experience, the cycling world, besides one exception in MTB here where a local guy scores to 20 in World Cups at 6'4'' 180 lbs+ ( he was the biggest cycling athlete at the Rio Olympics), I've never seen athletes that are good, or very good ( cat.1 ) , but a tad too heavy, raise their levels as to become conti level pros. MOst of them got to a point where losing weight was the only solution left, and they all ended up short. They lost the weight. But the result was either their performances collapse dramatically, or at best, don't increase to allow them to "graduate" to another level.

I'm thinking of another topic where the OP asked for the "average Joe's" FTP. Funny enough, lots of people answered 4 watts/kg. I can understand all the under 150 lbs guys having no difficulty to push those watts, but for the 160 + lbs guys, pushing 4watts/kg is another task.

So if you want to know, it's a fun task to try, since trathlon is an "old man's" sport ( lol), you have time to experience many many things ;-)...

Louis :-)

I am 30 y/o so still lots of time left.
I've got an FTP of 4.23w/KG at 78kg so dropping to 165lbs would at best give me an FTP of 4.4w/kg
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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BGildenstern wrote:
Haha when did 9% at 175 stop getting classified as lean. I’m vascular, have a visible 6 pack and 29 inch waist.

I’m good at losing weight. I have dirty bulked and subsequently cut losing 40 pounds in 4 months on multiple occasions. I have done intermittent fasting all the way down to only a 1 hour eating window and years of Keto.
Now I just eat a lot of veggies, lots of protein, lots of fruit and nuts. My diet is clean.

The point want always that if I diet/train 25hrs a week, and stopped lifting my body will not lose any muscle. Which is fine because I have never wanted it to lose muscle. The discussion was mainly how significant of an impact would losing that muscle be because if significant then I would consciously lose some muscle.

I do want to start competing for AG Champ in the next year so think getting down to 165 is the goal
No shit. Single digit BF% is lean.

BAck to your question (I never answered it before): I don't recall on here exactly but someone basically has said how much a pound of weight costs you on running. Yeah, not all weight is the same (muscle v fat), but it'll give you an idea. Again, I don't remember what it was, but something like 5 seconds a mile over a half marathon...(I am guessing here).

I will say if you stop lifting, and just run/bike/swim for 25 hrs a week you'll lose the muscle. You've said it's hard to lose but this is one area where science wins. Your body will slowly utilize that muscle that you aren't using for energy and it'll start to "go away".

I don't want to come across as a dick...but you aren't chasing any AG titles at your height and 165lbs.... Maybe if you dip into the 140s... (though, I've been proven wrong before and there are anomalies...i'm just putting my money on where the odds lie).
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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BGildenstern wrote:

I am 30 y/o so still lots of time left.
I've got an FTP of 4.23w/KG at 78kg so dropping to 165lbs would at best give me an FTP of 4.4w/kg

Real or estimated from a 20 min test ?
At your weight that's 330 Watts FTP. In cycling masters 30+ cat., it's already pretty good. I imagine your bike legs in Tri's should near the top AG times.
I don't know if you go down to 165 if it will make a difference in your bike, or run. Maybe. At your weight if you want to perform well I would certainly choose flat events.


Louis :-)
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [louisn] [ In reply to ]
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My 20min FTP was just under 350w. Before this year I have always had one of the top bike splits but as all my races other than whistler have been in heat I played it extremely safe on the bike. Whistler was actually my first Ironman Bike split over 5hrs and that was largely due to my Giro visor breaking, getting off the bike searching for it and then having to cycle the entire day without it and the wind/sun in my eyes. I've got cycling legs. Although I DNF'd due to the heat with 4 miles left in the run, my first ever Ironman Bike split was 4:59 on the slow CdA bike course.
Last edited by: BGildenstern: Aug 20, 19 17:05
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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Keep training and try stuff, you'll get better and better.
Like said earlier in your post, don't worry with your weight too much, improve your times. The rest will come naturally.

Louis :-)
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [louisn] [ In reply to ]
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louisn wrote:
Keep training and try stuff, you'll get better and better.
Like said earlier in your post, don't worry with your weight too much, improve your times. The rest will come naturally.

Louis :-)

I like this guy

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure why you like his advice. The OP indicates that losing weight to maximize performance is a goal, so minimizing it is counterproductive as the two are directly correlated to a point. Cleaning up the diet and reducing resistance training will help him immensely. There's no need to sugar coat it.

plant_based wrote:
louisn wrote:
Keep training and try stuff, you'll get better and better.
Like said earlier in your post, don't worry with your weight too much, improve your times. The rest will come naturally.

Louis :-)

I like this guy
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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Just stop lifting, go for a modest defecit and your body will hold on to the muscle that it needs for training. My target weight is about the same weight/height ratio as the target listed and i don't look like a beanpole. Without doing any lifting throughout the year i can usually walk up and rep my bodyweight for bench and bb rows, which is more than enough for triathlon.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [Bioteknik] [ In reply to ]
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I fully agree. Drop the weight training. I used to lift heavy and now I'll likely be having a bone spur removed from my elbow as a result. I still hold a ton of muscle mass at 149lbs. You get extensive resistance training from sbr.

Bioteknik wrote:
Just stop lifting, go for a modest defecit and your body will hold on to the muscle that it needs for training. My target weight is about the same weight/height ratio as the target listed and i don't look like a beanpole. Without doing any lifting throughout the year i can usually walk up and rep my bodyweight for bench and bb rows, which is more than enough for triathlon.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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BGildenstern wrote:
I do want to start competing for AG Champ in the next year so think getting down to 165 is the goal

Why to you think that 165 is the answer. How about training to a time goal and let the weight work its self out? If you drop to 165 and your still not fast enough 165 isn't the answer. You can bike at your current weight......question is can you run?
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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Never said 165 was the answer, just part of the story based on what people are suggesting.
As previously mentioned, I train 18-25hrs a week, in horrible shape I did a 1:24 solo half at 185lbs and holding back a decent amount I did a 3:34 IM split at Whistler at 175.

I feel like people have skipped over that I haven’t lifted really at all in 18 months. I hit the gym with the fiancée now and then and work on our booties haha but my body doesn’t drop muscle. Hell I ran 70-90 miles/week for 2 months and didn’t lift a single weight, I dropped fat but zero muscle.
This is not a problem and something that can be remedied by focusing on it to some extent.
So when I say, I want to be 165 by next year and compete for AG champ, that means: I am going to swim 20,000yds/week, bike 10hrs/week, run 50miles/week and heat train like a beast alongside getting lighter and I will be back faster and leaner.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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Ok sounds like you have the answer....the only reason I asked the question is because you brought up the number 165. If you can do all you want at 170 who cares about a number.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [Scottxs] [ In reply to ]
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I use 165 because I think that’s the lowest I could comfortably get right now and still be happy with my physique. May change as time progresses though but I’m already down to 172 and feel like 7 pounds in the next 6 months is doable.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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I had a friend years ago who wanted to lose skiing developed muscle mass in his quads because he was getting into hardcore rock climbing . He figured his legs weighed too much so he bought cast making material and casted his own legs and sat in a wheel chair for 6 weeks.

I guess it worked he was pulling like V14 sooner then later.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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I used to weigh 220lbs at 5'8". Much of your mass was muscle. It took me years to get to 149lbs. If I had realized much of it was diet, it would have been easier. Tracking calories on My Fitness Pal app and going plant based helped a lot.

BGildenstern wrote:
I use 165 because I think that’s the lowest I could comfortably get right now and still be happy with my physique. May change as time progresses though but I’m already down to 172 and feel like 7 pounds in the next 6 months is doable.
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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BGildenstern wrote:
So when I say, I want to be 165 by next year and compete for AG champ, that means: I am going to swim 20,000yds/week, bike 10hrs/week, run 50miles/week and heat train like a beast alongside getting lighter and I will be back faster and leaner.

Exacly ( what I meant, but didn't write on my previous comment). Do you have a good coach ?
If so, You will keep improving, thus burn more and more calories/week.
Eat healthy, if needed seek for a sports nutritionist to dial nutrition.
That's pretty much it.

-"There's only one way to eat an elephant: One bite at a time."

Louis :-)
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Re: How much does muscle mass limit Ironman potential? [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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That sort of build works for Kristian Blummenfelt, superleague website has him at 174cm and 77kg, other places say 177cm
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