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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Tim will most certainly go down as the most under funded and worst sponsored multi Kona winner. Gonna be really hard to beat that one...

Sad really but I agree.

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
zedzded wrote:
TRobTri wrote:
ThailandUltras wrote:
rodchaves31 wrote:
I’m beyond this silly argument. If you don’t understand the basic concepts of dialog and discussion, which include the potential for differences in opinions and perspectives, then I have really nothing to add.

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It is all just a form of tribalism.Some folks have decided,for their own reasons, that they like the way Lionel does his thing and have formed the unofficial Lionel Fan Club.They invest a certain part of themselves into that tribe and will defend against people who are seen to bring the tribe down.The more polarising the character being supported in situations like this the more invested people seem to become.

It is no different really to fans of sports teams who will scream and yell and abuse fans from the other teams for no other reason than they support a different team.I have watched dumbfounded as opposition fans will come to blows defending millionaire professional sportsmen and women who most likely don't really give a shit about the team that is paying them millions or the rabid fans who support them.Like those athletes Lionel doesn't need anyone defending him or offering him advice as we all know he will do his own thing anyway and won't care too much about a bunch of punters on a triathlon forum.

I like following Lionel in the same way I like watching those MMA guys in the Ultimate Fighter reality show.All talented athletes who are off the wall nutjobs, one episode away from a complete meltdown.


What I find the irony in is that Lionel literally turned his back on Slowtwitch by stopping posting, etc and has referenced this in the past, yet makes all his money now largely due to the vested interest of this same community giving him views, etc. I like Lionel and hope he does well, I just find that funny.


i would have thought it would be difficult for him posting on here considering how well known he is in triathlon circles. Every one of his posts is going to be read, analysed and replied to by shitloads of people. I would have thought it would be a bit of a clusterfuck? Would be cool, having someone of that calibre posting though.

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Yes,I think all good intentions by Lionel here would end up turning into a Gong-Show as Slowtwitch isn't immune from the anonymous attacks that are so common on the internet.I know a few pro's and top age groupers who are well aware of ST's reputation and steer clear of this place and I often get asked why I bother spending time here.I think that is a shame and our collective loss.

as i'm writing this i'm in italy, at a schwalbe tire launch (you'll read about the new road tubeless tires soon). there is a lot of media here, and a lot of folks from schwalbe. they ALL read our interview with sebastian kienle last month. whether on the front page or the forum, and whether the pros know it or not, there's a direct line between the engagement pros have with their audiences and the money the make (or don't make) from sponsors. i know pretty much every endemic sponsor. whomever you are, pro or fan, you can cry, you can complain, you can argue, you can disagree, you can wax philosophic about the way things ought to be, but at some point one must reckon with the way things are. the fattest, baddest, quickest bang for your buck is simply to engage the audience here, if you're a pro. but it does require the capacity to absorb the 20 good folks and disregard the 1 bad apple. a lot of folks don't have the presence, the stature, the capacity to do that. they dwell on the 1 bad apple.

of course you can engage your audience in other ways. it's just harder for sponsors to find you. to see what you're doing. to see your good work.

like you, i know a lot of pros who avoid the difficult feedback from the audience. i know a lot of badly funded pros. they tend to be the same pros. you take kienle as an example, kienle made a LOT of headway with his sponsors in a VERY short time by simply sitting for an interview here. i sought him out because he's one of the few pros who understands the bike he's riding. a lot of pros are intimidated by such an interview because they don't understand the bikes they're riding. there's a reason kienle is in high demand: he understands his equipment; therefore he's not intimidated or afraid to talk about it; sponsors see that; sponsors want that. MTM posts here without worry, because he understands the equipment he's riding. if you understand the equipment, you have very little to worry about.

yes, there are some assholes. welcome to the internet. engaging with the audience in a thoughtful, technical knowledgeable way is still the pathway. that's why lionel is so popular. yes, he's been burned. however, if lionel shrinks back and becomes less transparent, his appeal with sponsors will shrink back accordingly. lionel is popular because lionel is an open book. if you don't want to be an open book here, okay, but you have to be transparent somewhere. there's about a dozen pros in the world who can make a pretty good living just off race results. everybody else needs to engage with his or her audience, here or somewhere.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think one of the most recent examples of what you're addressing is Jocelyn McCauley, who gained a ton of notoriety and fans by simply posting her desire to compete here. I tell athletes and manufacturers all the time, get on the forums, engage, and put your name on it; don't hide behind a generic company/brand name. Yes, it takes time, effort, and a bit of risk putting yourself out there, but if you're honest, humble, and don't take criticism too personally, it will pay off.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I think one of the most recent examples of what you're addressing is Jocelyn McCauley, who gained a ton of notoriety and fans by simply posting her desire to compete here. I tell athletes and manufacturers all the time, get on the forums, engage, and put your name on it; don't hide behind a generic company/brand name. Yes, it takes time, effort, and a bit of risk putting yourself out there, but if you're honest, humble, and don't take criticism too personally, it will pay off.

Yeah, I had no clue who she was before that post. Now, I'm a fan.
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
I think one of the most recent examples of what you're addressing is Jocelyn McCauley, who gained a ton of notoriety and fans by simply posting her desire to compete here. I tell athletes and manufacturers all the time, get on the forums, engage, and put your name on it; don't hide behind a generic company/brand name. Yes, it takes time, effort, and a bit of risk putting yourself out there, but if you're honest, humble, and don't take criticism too personally, it will pay off.

as you might guess, i get asked all the time by endemic manufacturers, "who should i sponsor?" they don't know. "we're heavy with males, i need more women, who should we have on our roster?" jocelyn mccauley is precisely the sort of person who i'd recommend. or, angela naeth, because of iracelikeagirl. pros who step out, do more than just race. who understand their equipment and can talk about it. who have a personality. it's great to have a personality. better yet if you show it off to people. we're losing one to retirement, helle frederickson. there's one who wasn't afraid to address her audience.

but more than that, helle will have an earning future beyond racing. i don't know what she'll do, but the capacity to gather and speak to a fan base, she can parlay that.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Working into a whole different thread at this point, but I do believe some of the larger sponsors/manufacturers could help their athletes engage more by offering up the services of their own marketing departments as part of the sponsorship. Then again, since most of them don't understand how to engage themselves, perhaps not.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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To get the thread back on track, surprised there hasn't been more mention of Lionel's new bike & fit. Since he's been injured all year seems like forever ago he made the switch, but this was only his 2nd race on the Canyon and first Ironman. What do you make of his 4:15 at Tremblant on 305w?

Looking it up, Tremblant has about the same vert as Kona, so this seems almost exactly in line with his 2017 Kona 4:15 on 305w. He sure looks faster though.
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
I think one of the most recent examples of what you're addressing is Jocelyn McCauley, who gained a ton of notoriety and fans by simply posting her desire to compete here. I tell athletes and manufacturers all the time, get on the forums, engage, and put your name on it; don't hide behind a generic company/brand name. Yes, it takes time, effort, and a bit of risk putting yourself out there, but if you're honest, humble, and don't take criticism too personally, it will pay off.


as you might guess, i get asked all the time by endemic manufacturers, "who should i sponsor?" they don't know. "we're heavy with males, i need more women, who should we have on our roster?" jocelyn mccauley is precisely the sort of person who i'd recommend. or, angela naeth, because of iracelikeagirl. pros who step out, do more than just race. who understand their equipment and can talk about it. who have a personality. it's great to have a personality. better yet if you show it off to people. we're losing one to retirement, helle frederickson. there's one who wasn't afraid to address her audience.

but more than that, helle will have an earning future beyond racing. i don't know what she'll do, but the capacity to gather and speak to a fan base, she can parlay that.

As I have been posting here and on social media about the development of my cycling shoe, I have had probably 25 male pros approach me about building some sort of relationship. Maybe more. I have not had a single female pro contact me. I'm somewhat troubled by that. I'm not going to be a huge sponsor-partner right out of the box, but it indicates to me that the women need to advocate for themselves more than they do - that would include engaging with the fans I think - if they want to make as much money as they theoretically can.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for sharing Dan. This was very insightful.

I was just having a real life discussion with a father of boys who are in select league baseball and how every sport now requires serious exposure within social media/Youtube. Now, not only is it imperative athletes utilize the social media platforms to promote themselves and sponsors but they have begun doing it at a very young age to show their progression over the years. These social media platforms is where the major league, NFL, professional scouts look for their next recruited players and more importantly they begin following the younger future players/athletes at much younger ages.
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Ed, sometimes though it takes self reflection on your part as to why zero women have reached out. And this goes for anyone really. If you want the full package in a prize limited sport you have to figure out how to build the full package. That means a lot of self reflecting and then dealing with decisions if you don’t want to change, etc.

The why is almost more important to understand and figure out than the end result.

(In your case if your figure out why no women have approached you maybe adaptions can be made to make it more accessible in women’s eyes.....just using your situation as example)

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 20, 19 10:21
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be interested in understanding if I am doing anything that seems inaccessible to women. If I am, it is completely unintentional. I'm just trying to make the fastest cycling shoe ever. If you've noticed something, let me know!

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
To get the thread back on track, surprised there hasn't been more mention of Lionel's new bike & fit. Since he's been injured all year seems like forever ago he made the switch, but this was only his 2nd race on the Canyon and first Ironman. What do you make of his 4:15 at Tremblant on 305w?

Looking it up, Tremblant has about the same vert as Kona, so this seems almost exactly in line with his 2017 Kona 4:15 on 305w. He sure looks faster though.


Tremblant has significantly more climbing than Kona, but is also 2 miles short.

The position definitely looks better.
Last edited by: USCoregonian: Aug 20, 19 10:25
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I'd be interested in understanding if I am doing anything that seems inaccessible to women. If I am, it is completely unintentional. I'm just trying to make the fastest cycling shoe ever. If you've noticed something, let me know!
As one of the men who has reached out to you, I'll chime in. My wife would straight up never seek out information about a product like yours. She is fast. Just on the edge of becoming a pro right now, but simply leaves the bike stuff up to me. I'm not saying this is how it always is but probably more often than not tri relationships work like this. If I gave her a pair of your shoes she would probably think they were cool, she'd believe me when I told her they're fast, and would race in them. But wouldn't know much more than that on how to actually promote them. Now I think this is why we make a good team because she gets messages daily from women on Instagram asking for tips on topics very specific to women, but those are very rarely bike or gear related. Of course as soon as you start marketing somethign specifically for women (colors/marketing words) you run into the issue of why treat women differently. I can't imagine you're doing anything wrong with your approach. Just that numbers wise, there are more guys interested. Probably nothing there you didn't already assume but regardless...

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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You make a good point. Unless an athlete--any athlete, not just triathletes-- has a business or marketing background, it is probably not intuitive that they are, or should develop, themselves as a brand. They are good at athletics. They other stuff takes more work and many don't want to do it, which is fine. But, their brand, or lack thereof, will suffer if they don't.
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Nooo what I’m saying is, whether a pro trying to make it w more sponsors etc or an coach trying to get more athletes or vendor selling product.

We all need to self reflect as to why things are the way they are.

I don’t get many athletes online because I promote myself as a “hands on” coach. I led daily sets 6 out of 7 days. I see 95% of my age group athletes 2-4 times a week. That’s going to always “limit” my appeal/financial capacity however, but it’s then why I have to “hustle” with swim coaching masters, few random hours at Y etc etc.

So I think if you can understand the “why” you can accept the end result. It’s when you are looking around and saying “they should be coming to me” and you aren’t actually promoting to them or making yourself out there, maybe that’s why your only getting 1 demographic.

And no I’m not suggesting you are being specific in your marketing. I was more suggesting to review how you market or your audience. How/when do you come into contact with women? ST is a very male dominated world. And it’s even more heavily AG dominated vs pros. Are you in a capacity to showcase to more women? Etc etc

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [USCoregonian] [ In reply to ]
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USCoregonian wrote:
Sean H wrote:
To get the thread back on track, surprised there hasn't been more mention of Lionel's new bike & fit. Since he's been injured all year seems like forever ago he made the switch, but this was only his 2nd race on the Canyon and first Ironman. What do you make of his 4:15 at Tremblant on 305w?

Looking it up, Tremblant has about the same vert as Kona, so this seems almost exactly in line with his 2017 Kona 4:15 on 305w. He sure looks faster though.


Tremblant has significantly more climbing than Kona, but is also 2 miles short.

The position definitely looks better.

That's what I thought as well, but according to the course details on Ironman.com they are very close: Kona 1772 meters & Tremblant 1800 meters. Is one of these incorrect?

Kona: https://www.ironman.com/...%208%2019%202019.pdf

Tremblant: https://www.ironman.com/...velo%202019%20v2.pdf
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
USCoregonian wrote:
Sean H wrote:
To get the thread back on track, surprised there hasn't been more mention of Lionel's new bike & fit. Since he's been injured all year seems like forever ago he made the switch, but this was only his 2nd race on the Canyon and first Ironman. What do you make of his 4:15 at Tremblant on 305w?

Looking it up, Tremblant has about the same vert as Kona, so this seems almost exactly in line with his 2017 Kona 4:15 on 305w. He sure looks faster though.


Tremblant has significantly more climbing than Kona, but is also 2 miles short.

The position definitely looks better.


That's what I thought as well, but according to the course details on Ironman.com they are very close: Kona 1772 meters & Tremblant 1800 meters. Is one of these incorrect?

Kona: https://www.ironman.com/...%208%2019%202019.pdf

Tremblant: https://www.ironman.com/...velo%202019%20v2.pdf


Yes, Kona is nowhere near that much. More like 4-4500 ft. Done both races twice and looking at files had 4400 for both times at Kona and 5400 at Tremblant. Kona spot on 112, Tremblant 110.
Last edited by: USCoregonian: Aug 20, 19 10:57
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [USCoregonian] [ In reply to ]
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Good to know, thanks.
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I know some folks here keep saying Lionel needs to get in a regular pool and swim. I thought it was kind of funny because Ben Hoffman just bought a swimspa and is grinding it out in his backyard in Tucson instead of going to the pool.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
To get the thread back on track, surprised there hasn't been more mention of Lionel's new bike & fit. Since he's been injured all year seems like forever ago he made the switch, but this was only his 2nd race on the Canyon and first Ironman. What do you make of his 4:15 at Tremblant on 305w?

Looking it up, Tremblant has about the same vert as Kona, so this seems almost exactly in line with his 2017 Kona 4:15 on 305w. He sure looks faster though.

Tremblant has significantly more vertical than Kona. I'd also say Tremblant on Duplessi has some much much steeper pitches than what you will find in Kona, that really takes a bite out of the legs. I'd say that 4:15 equates to a faster time in Kona for sure. And the interesting thing is he is not at peak bike fitness as stated in his post race video. His last training video, he did 7 X 10 minutes @ 350 watts. I think he will get that up to 400 watts before Kona, and more importantly, he's taking a break in between intervals. The whole point of those intervals is two fold, to put the anaerobic load on the legs and then build the lactic acid clearing capacity during the recovery phase. It also builds the lactic acid tolerance. I think Lionel would focus on number two and much less on number one in the past.

Regarding his fit, I definitely think it is much much improved, and will pay dividends in Kona. That work with Ivan O'Gorman and the new Cannon are working well for him.

Good observations Sean!! :-)
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [CementBottle] [ In reply to ]
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CementBottle wrote:
Sean H wrote:
To get the thread back on track, surprised there hasn't been more mention of Lionel's new bike & fit. Since he's been injured all year seems like forever ago he made the switch, but this was only his 2nd race on the Canyon and first Ironman. What do you make of his 4:15 at Tremblant on 305w?


Looking it up, Tremblant has about the same vert as Kona, so this seems almost exactly in line with his 2017 Kona 4:15 on 305w. He sure looks faster though.


Tremblant has significantly more vertical than Kona. I'd also say Tremblant on Duplessi has some much much steeper pitches than what you will find in Kona, that really takes a bite out of the legs. I'd say that 4:15 equates to a faster time in Kona for sure. And the interesting thing is he is not at peak bike fitness as stated in his post race video. His last training video, he did 7 X 10 minutes @ 350 watts. I think he will get that up to 400 watts before Kona, and more importantly, he's taking a break in between intervals. The whole point of those intervals is two fold, to put the anaerobic load on the legs and then build the lactic acid clearing capacity during the recovery phase. It also builds the lactic acid tolerance. I think Lionel would focus on number two and much less on number one in the past.

Regarding his fit, I definitely think it is much much improved, and will pay dividends in Kona. That work with Ivan O'Gorman and the new Cannon are working well for him.

Good observations Sean!! :-)


This is exactly what Cody Beals said in the other thread:

"I had to average 10-15 W more than my bike course record last year and I still lost 5 minutes! I hung with him until 130 km before making a strategic decision to let him go, otherwise I'd be walking the marathon!"

LS' bike is definitely improved and that LG bike was such an eye sore. He didn't look right on that bike. He looks much comfortable, aero and fast on Canyon for sure.
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Re: Sanders Questions for Ironman Mont Tremblant [s13tx] [ In reply to ]
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"I had to average 10-15 W more than my bike course record last year and I still lost 5 minutes! I hung with him until 130 km before making a strategic decision to let him go, otherwise I'd be walking the marathon!"

Wow I missed that tidbit, VERY interesting!! I think things are looking good bike wise, can Lionel get his run fitness and endurance up to the point where he doesn't fade in the second half of the run in Kona, wherever he is at that point.
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