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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).

On board with taking people out of the pool in cases like this. Put me down for vigilantism as well.

There was an even worse story out of CHI the other day. Something about 2 individuals removing and strangling a fetus while it was still connected. Honestly I glanced at the headline and decided it was too horrible of a story to read fully so I might have not picked it up accurately.

I've seen some horrible shit in my life but something about the potential of that (perceived) headline and article got me scrolling quickly past it.
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).

Nope

You miss the part where he strapped the three year old in and then burned the thtee year old alive?

Nope, it was a terrible crime and he should go to jail forever.

No to vigilantism too?
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
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DavHamm wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).


Nope


You miss the part where he strapped the three year old in and then burned the thtee year old alive?

NO, I think you just refuse or are incapable of understanding the reason some oppose the death penalty.

No I understand, hence why I offered the vigilantism option.
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).


Nope


You miss the part where he strapped the three year old in and then burned the thtee year old alive?


Nope, it was a terrible crime and he should go to jail forever.


No to vigilantism too?

A strong no to vigilantism. Mobs are stupid. That's why there is a system of justice with rules and evidentiary burdens. I also support keeping inmates safe. That means not allowing them to get beaten, raped, or otherwise brutalized by other defendants, regardless of their offense.

===============
#ITMFA
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).


Nope


You miss the part where he strapped the three year old in and then burned the thtee year old alive?


Nope, it was a terrible crime and he should go to jail forever.


No to vigilantism too?

A strong no to vigilantism. Mobs are stupid. That's why there is a system of justice with rules and evidentiary burdens. I also support keeping inmates safe. That means not allowing them to get beaten, raped, or otherwise brutalized by other defendants, regardless of their offense.

Your position is unfathomable to me.
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).


Nope


You miss the part where he strapped the three year old in and then burned the thtee year old alive?


Nope, it was a terrible crime and he should go to jail forever.


No to vigilantism too?

A strong no to vigilantism. Mobs are stupid. That's why there is a system of justice with rules and evidentiary burdens. I also support keeping inmates safe. That means not allowing them to get beaten, raped, or otherwise brutalized by other defendants, regardless of their offense.

Your position is unfathomable to me.

1) You can’t exonerate someone who has been killed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

2) Capital punishment is not an effective deterrent.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/...ce-and-death-penalty

Lots of other reasons why I don’t agree with Capital punishment but that is enough.

===============
#ITMFA
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).


Nope


You miss the part where he strapped the three year old in and then burned the thtee year old alive?


Nope, it was a terrible crime and he should go to jail forever.


No to vigilantism too?

A strong no to vigilantism. Mobs are stupid. That's why there is a system of justice with rules and evidentiary burdens. I also support keeping inmates safe. That means not allowing them to get beaten, raped, or otherwise brutalized by other defendants, regardless of their offense.

Your position is unfathomable to me.

1) You can’t exonerate someone who has been killed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution

2) Capital punishment is not an effective deterrent.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/...ce-and-death-penalty

Lots of other reasons why I don’t agree with Capital punishment but that is enough.

Neither of those points is pertinent to the case in hand. Carry on
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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windywave wrote:
j p o wrote:
There is a reason for the maxim, hard cases make bad law.

This would be the perfect example of that adage.

Does he deserve to die? Sure. State sponsored execution is still wrong.

I'll mark you down as pro vigilantism then

Would I shed a tear if someone did? No. But then they would have to be held accountable.

If someone raped or killed my wife, they weren't caught and I knew for certain who they were? I would do my best to see they never saw trial. But then I'd have to face the consequences.

That's what happens when you live in a civilized society. Your sense of vengeance doesn't always get satisfied.

We are so fucked.
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
windywave wrote:
j p o wrote:
There is a reason for the maxim, hard cases make bad law.

This would be the perfect example of that adage.

Does he deserve to die? Sure. State sponsored execution is still wrong.

I'll mark you down as pro vigilantism then

Would I shed a tear if someone did? No. But then they would have to be held accountable.

If someone raped or killed my wife, they weren't caught and I knew for certain who they were? I would do my best to see they never saw trial. But then I'd have to face the consequences.

That's what happens when you live in a civilized society. Your sense of vengeance doesn't always get satisfied.

And by face the consequences...jury nullification
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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I'm comfortable with the death penalty for murderers, however death penalty cases nearly twice as much as normal cases maintaining the death row prisoners costs 90k more per year than traditional inmates.
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [CaptainCanada] [ In reply to ]
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 To the contrary Canada ---no credible evidence of a single innocent man or woman executed in the last forty years. I am a prosecutor involved in capital litigation -- and go to conferences on the issue. I would know the name. So, please tell me who was proven innocent and executed. Sociology professors sometimes use anticipated error or hypothesize and extrapolate an error rate. That, my friends is pure bull shit. Experience has shown an established error rate of zero. Hundreds of deserving murderers executed---to 0 innocent. As the late Justice Scalia put it -- Kansas v. Marsh, 548 U.S. 163, 199 (2006)(. . .This explains why those ideologically driven to ferret out and proclaim a mistaken modern execution have not a single verifiable case to point to, whereas it is easy as pie to identify plainly guilty murderers who have been set free.”).


And, by the way ----the Death Penalty info cite is not terribly reliable and advances an agenda.
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Re: There is not a cruel or unusual enough punishment [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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Skipjack wrote:
windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).


On board with taking people out of the pool in cases like this. Put me down for vigilantism as well.

There was an even worse story out of CHI the other day. Something about 2 individuals removing and strangling a fetus while it was still connected. Honestly I glanced at the headline and decided it was too horrible of a story to read fully so I might have not picked it up accurately.

I've seen some horrible shit in my life but something about the potential of that (perceived) headline and article got me scrolling quickly past it.

CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
CaptainCanada wrote:
windywave wrote:
Strapped his three year old into a car seat and set the car on fire.

Does this make the cut if you usually are opposed to the death penalty?

To the high and mighty who believe government doesn't have the right to kill people, would you consider vigilantism in this case.

And yes Duffy, I'd throw the first match. (I'd also strongly advocate no accelerants and green wood).


Nope


You miss the part where he strapped the three year old in and then burned the thtee year old alive?


Nope, it was a terrible crime and he should go to jail forever.


No to vigilantism too?


A strong no to vigilantism. Mobs are stupid. That's why there is a system of justice with rules and evidentiary burdens. I also support keeping inmates safe. That means not allowing them to get beaten, raped, or otherwise brutalized by other defendants, regardless of their offense.

I'm OK w/ removing people who are clearly unfit to continue living among us forever, but also a strong no to vigilantism ~ who the hell gets to decide what the appropriate threshold is for the next case and the next? That's a slippery slope into wanton barbarism; where will that get us? Keeping the guy alive on the public dime for the rest of his life is a poor use of limited tax dollars, so if it's determined that he's too big a risk to ever get rehabbed and released then no use in keeping him around or even letting the other inmates continue perpetuating the cycle of barbarism, but the State should never take any relish in it either.

No amount of retribution will ever bring the victim back or undo the crime; it only enables the evil or sadism to grow in others when we give it our seal of approval. It's ultimately still the same old "Two wrongs don't make a Right" rule when you boil it down ~ even though the tools & outcomes may have escalated since we were in kindergarden, the principle remains unchanged. In a civilized society, the process should be dutifully upheld as solemnly and objectively as possible, and if so deemed then the piece of shit should be put down as dispassionately as possible too. I view it much like simply euthanizing a dog that mauled a kid. It's not about 'punishing' the dog (because duh), only utility or expedience in eliminating it as a further threat.

Maybe it helps if you simply try to think of someone whose mind is that fucked up as a rabid dog... People already use words like 'animal' or 'subhuman' to describe remorseless killers, so this is just another stop on that track. We'll euthanize a mountain lion that roams into a rural neighborhood and kills a kid or even pets, not because the cat is aware it's doing anything wrong or how much suffering it inflicted on its prey, but simply as a public service to the immediate community.
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