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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [SH] [ In reply to ]
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Finally got time to watch the video, it was informative, thanks. I suppose the big guess right now is how does the mouse trials transfer to us humans. I hope they get to do those daily IF tests to see if we actually get to eating those damaged cells.

But now you and this guy got me thinking I need to do at least a 3 day fast, so will pick a time when it seems to fit in. But I will supercharge it with workouts each day, so perhaps get the benefit of a 5 day that way. Thats what I do now, train for an hour+ on my 18 to 21 hour fasts, and never have felt I ran out of fuel, or even slowed down. Of course no eating and doing it a 2nd and 3rd day will be different, how much you just never know until you try.

So even more interested in your results, post an update on how it is going today...
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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But now you and this guy got me thinking I need to do at least a 3 day fast, so will pick a time when it seems to fit in. But I will supercharge it with workouts each day, so perhaps get the benefit of a 5 day that way.


My understanding is that would be a mistake for a few reasons. First, the real benefits of fasting start around Day 4 so if you can extend that one day, it would be far more helpful.


Second and most importantly, the idea of fasting is to rest the body and let it heal. Eating (digestion) is a stress on the body and you want to get away from stresses. Exercise is another stress so you are simply replacing one stress with another. It is highly recommended from every single source I've read to rest while fasting. You can do light exercise like walking but just let your body heal. Just give your body a rest.


Once the fasting is done, and you re-feed, then go back to exercise. The tendency in the West is to push things along and try to accomplish more than one thing at a time but that is usually counter-productive when it comes to health. Do one thing well and then move on to the next thing.
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
Second and most importantly, the idea of fasting is to rest the body and let it heal. Eating (digestion) is a stress on the body and you want to get away from stresses. Exercise is another stress so you are simply replacing one stress with another. It is highly recommended from every single source I've read to rest while fasting. You can do light exercise like walking but just let your body heal. Just give your body a rest.

This seems somewhat counter intuitive to me. OK resting to let your body heal makes sense, but how does starving it so it lacks the energy to heal (this is a metabolic process) facilitate this?
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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My understanding is that would be a mistake for a few reasons. First, the real benefits of fasting start around Day 4 so if you can extend that one day, it would be far more helpful. //

The doctor talked briefly about this in this video, and he seemed to indicate the jury is out, but that exercise would speed up the process, at least in mice. I'm not sure that it is about the body resting, in fact the opposite. You put yourself in a super stressed position(no food, starvation mode) and then the body starts to do things if wouldnt normally do, eat the cells that are present. And if we are to believe what they say, the body eats damaged and unwanted cells first, until it eats itself in full starvation mode.

So I dont know, but logically I'm thinking if you make the body have to eat more cells, more quickly, might not it have the desired affect of a slightly longer fast?? I mean if you are going to burn 10k calories in a 5 day fast, and hope to eat some bad cells, why wouldnt all that happen in a 10k burn in 3 days too??


I know you cannot answer, as it seems no one can, but logic tells me(and if I heard him right, the doctor here) that some slow aerobic exercise should supercharge the fast. I'm not really looking for shortcuts, just dont want to be a slug for 5 days... (-;
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
My understanding is that would be a mistake for a few reasons. First, the real benefits of fasting start around Day 4 so if you can extend that one day, it would be far more helpful. //

The doctor talked briefly about this in this video, and he seemed to indicate the jury is out, but that exercise would speed up the process, at least in mice. I'm not sure that it is about the body resting, in fact the opposite. You put yourself in a super stressed position(no food, starvation mode) and then the body starts to do things if wouldnt normally do, eat the cells that are present. And if we are to believe what they say, the body eats damaged and unwanted cells first, until it eats itself in full starvation mode.

So I dont know, but logically I'm thinking if you make the body have to eat more cells, more quickly, might not it have the desired affect of a slightly longer fast?? I mean if you are going to burn 10k calories in a 5 day fast, and hope to eat some bad cells, why wouldnt all that happen in a 10k burn in 3 days too??


I know you cannot answer, as it seems no one can, but logic tells me(and if I heard him right, the doctor here) that some slow aerobic exercise should supercharge the fast. I'm not really looking for shortcuts, just dont want to be a slug for 5 days... (-;

That makes more sense to me. The response to most any injury in the body is inflammation, which is necessary to start the healing process, but in and off itself can be damaging as well if it is too profound. Seems like fasting would be a good way to deprive your body of energy and thus down regulate the inflammatory process or even limit the healing process (e.g. I think one could argue that atherosclerotic plaques are in a sense scars forming due to vessel wall damage and you won't those growing too big or you get narrowed coronary arteries).
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Captain's log
Star Date: 3 days 15hours and 42 minutes

Overall my fast is going pretty well. I have good energy and I'm not hungry. Well, I'm not hungry but I still miss food like an ex girlfriend. Yesterday I had a recurring fantasy of watching college football all day with nachos, cheese dip, chicken wings, and chilli. In some versions I was washing it all down with beer. In others I was drinking a New Mexican martini. Ehhhh... enough of that.

This fast differs a bit from my two 3.5 day fasts of the past.

1.) I'm drinking espresso with O calorie Stevia and nutmeg. I like the change up on outlook the coffee gives me.
2.) I'm eating a couple of pickles each day. This keeps my salt level up. If you eat too much salt then your body can simply regulate it. You eat too little salt and you're in trouble. Pickles are 5 calories a spear, and I've heard it takes more calories to digest them than they provide.
3.) I chew gum more than usual. I've heard Keto breath is pretty unagreeable so I'm trying to make sure I don't bother anyone.

I think I've lost 4-5 pounds of body weight since I started. I'm not sure how much is residual food taken out of the system versus fat, muscle, and water. I look at myself in the mirror and don't notice any huge changes. Maybe I'm a little more cut? But that could be wishful thinking.

A friend of mine asked me last night how I would know if the fast worked or not in improving my health. I had no answer. (Edit: beyond the science supporting it. I know that I probably won't have much personal insight into whatever benefit I'm getting out of this.)
Last edited by: SH: Sep 30, 18 9:56
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [SH] [ In reply to ]
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I'm done. I'm eating. Good, good, good.

Towards the end I had a few realizations:

1.) For longer fasts you need to have an electrolyte plan.
2.) The 2 pickles a day began to get gross, and I went and found myself a legitimate electolyte plan. Well, more legitimate than my random 2 pickles a day plan.
3.) I wanted to take it easy, but I probably should have done more weight lifting during the fast -- like a set of 10 reps per body part per day. (Using multi-body part exercises.)
4.) Food is good!
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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This seems somewhat counter intuitive to me. OK resting to let your body heal makes sense, but how does starving it so it lacks the energy to heal (this is a metabolic process) facilitate this?



The body doesn't starve when you fast, it simply changes from burning sugar to burning fat. You have a lot of body fat so lots of energy.

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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
This seems somewhat counter intuitive to me. OK resting to let your body heal makes sense, but how does starving it so it lacks the energy to heal (this is a metabolic process) facilitate this?



The body doesn't starve when you fast, it simply changes from burning sugar to burning fat. You have a lot of body fat so lots of energy.

Yeah but some of your tissue requires carbs as an energy substrate, the big one being your brain. Neurons don't run on fats, ketones are in essence your brain's starvation energy source.
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [SH] [ In reply to ]
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2.) The 2 pickles a day began to get gross, and I went and found myself a legitimate electolyte plan. Well, more legitimate than my random 2 pickles a day plan. //

Nice job, and as for the electrolyte thing, I just use my salt caps. I take at least 3 in the morning at about 1 hour intervals before and after I work out, then usually another one after at about noon. That has worked well, but of course I then start eating around 1pm, so that takes care of the rest of the day. I presume if I were to go days, I would do maybe 6 to 8 of those caps, and drink pickle juice, then before bed take a cal/mag/ zinc supplement that I usually take.


I know for me, I know right away if I'm getting low, and the caps work almost immediately with the 3 or 4 ingredients they have..


So what did you dream of eating after your first meal broke the fast and your stomach was working again? I'm thinking a juicy double double animal style..
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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My normal diet usually takes care of all my electolyte needs so I was pretty short handed when it came time to make up for deficiencies without eating. Salt tabs sound like genius. I'll definitely use those next time around.

My restart meal was some heated bone broth. I just buy it at Walmart for nothing.

My first real meal was within 20 minutes and consisted of a: Hot ground sausage, Mexican cheese, Arugula, Feta cheese, and Pepper jack cheese omelete. Then I just began devouring everything in the house.

Then I got tired -- real tired.
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
This seems somewhat counter intuitive to me. OK resting to let your body heal makes sense, but how does starving it so it lacks the energy to heal (this is a metabolic process) facilitate this?



The body doesn't starve when you fast, it simply changes from burning sugar to burning fat. You have a lot of body fat so lots of energy.


Yeah but some of your tissue requires carbs as an energy substrate, the big one being your brain. Neurons don't run on fats, ketones are in essence your brain's starvation energy source.

This is true and not true. Yes, your brain will use carbs when it can because it's easy. It can also run off of ketones and convert them to what it needs easily. I've known people who have been on a keto diet for years and haven't died, pretty sure you're brain will figure it out .

"The brain is dependent on glucose as a primary energy substrate, but is capable of utilizing ketones such as β-hydroxybutyrate (βHB) and acetoacetate (AcAc), as occurs with fasting, prolonged starvation or chronic feeding of a high fat/low carbohydrate diet (ketogenic diet)."

~Brad
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [bradword] [ In reply to ]
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bradword wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
This seems somewhat counter intuitive to me. OK resting to let your body heal makes sense, but how does starving it so it lacks the energy to heal (this is a metabolic process) facilitate this?



The body doesn't starve when you fast, it simply changes from burning sugar to burning fat. You have a lot of body fat so lots of energy.


Yeah but some of your tissue requires carbs as an energy substrate, the big one being your brain. Neurons don't run on fats, ketones are in essence your brain's starvation energy source.


This is true and not true. Yes, your brain will use carbs when it can because it's easy. It can also run off of ketones and convert them to what it needs easily. I've known people who have been on a keto diet for years and haven't died, pretty sure you're brain will figure it out .

"The brain is dependent on glucose as a primary energy substrate, but is capable of utilizing ketones such as β-hydroxybutyrate (βHB) and acetoacetate (AcAc), as occurs with fasting, prolonged starvation or chronic feeding of a high fat/low carbohydrate diet (ketogenic diet)."

I didn't say it would kill you, just it's the fuel that's created when there aren't enough carbs/calories being consumed. Although I've read kids who are chronically malnourished part of the reason they can get brain damage is from the ketones, but of course that is a developing brain and probably more persistent and profound ketosis than an adult on this diet.

Kind of like what killed Type I diabetics before insulin was severe ketoacidosis. So certainly too much ketones can be detrimental to your health, it could even kill you, but I've never heard of anyone on one of these diets getting to that point.
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [bradword] [ In reply to ]
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bradword wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Sanuk wrote:
This seems somewhat counter intuitive to me. OK resting to let your body heal makes sense, but how does starving it so it lacks the energy to heal (this is a metabolic process) facilitate this?



The body doesn't starve when you fast, it simply changes from burning sugar to burning fat. You have a lot of body fat so lots of energy.


Yeah but some of your tissue requires carbs as an energy substrate, the big one being your brain. Neurons don't run on fats, ketones are in essence your brain's starvation energy source.


This is true and not true. Yes, your brain will use carbs when it can because it's easy. It can also run off of ketones and convert them to what it needs easily. I've known people who have been on a keto diet for years and haven't died, pretty sure you're brain will figure it out .

"The brain is dependent on glucose as a primary energy substrate, but is capable of utilizing ketones such as β-hydroxybutyrate (βHB) and acetoacetate (AcAc), as occurs with fasting, prolonged starvation or chronic feeding of a high fat/low carbohydrate diet (ketogenic diet)."

In addition your body will make glucose as needed. It's fascinating to see people doing a 5 day water fast who wear a CGM to track their glucose. It stays at a baseline 60ish until they workout and then it bumps up for a short amount of time. No carbs needed.

I keep hearing researchers refer to ketones as a fourth macronutrient. The latest womens hour record holder used ketones as a fuel source for her record. It would be interesting to hear her talk about how the BHB helped.
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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So certainly too much ketones can be detrimental to your health, it could even kill you, but I've never heard of anyone on one of these diets getting to that point.


I think that the only way too many ketones could kill you is if you starve for an extended period of time and your fat sources are depleted which is virtually impossible. There is no chance being on a Keto diet will get you anywhere near that level, it would only happen through starvation. I don't think many people in the West have to worry about that. It's not a good idea for children to go on Ketosis, they should just follow common sense and avoid the typical sugar/carb overload that no one needs. There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.


The thing that interests me the most is the research from Dr. Thomas Seyfried, a professor of biology at Boston College. His work on cancer as a metabolic disease (as opposed to the generally accepted genetic mutation) and how the fermentation of glucose is a real problem is gaining traction. As a broad overview, he's saying that excess glucose in the body that is linked to obesity, diabetes, heart disease etc., also feeds cancer cells. Dr. Seyfried is echoing the earlier conclusions in the 1920's from Otto Warburg but that was dismissed.


Dr. Seyfried was promoting a Keto diet but was initially focussing on the role of fat but the impact of glucose in the body is where he turned his attention.

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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
So certainly too much ketones can be detrimental to your health, it could even kill you, but I've never heard of anyone on one of these diets getting to that point.


I think that the only way too many ketones could kill you is if you starve for an extended period of time and your fat sources are depleted which is virtually impossible. There is no chance being on a Keto diet will get you anywhere near that level, it would only happen through starvation. I don't think many people in the West have to worry about that. It's not a good idea for children to go on Ketosis, they should just follow common sense and avoid the typical sugar/carb overload that no one needs. There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.


The thing that interests me the most is the research from Dr. Thomas Seyfried, a professor of biology at Boston College. His work on cancer as a metabolic disease (as opposed to the generally accepted genetic mutation) and how the fermentation of glucose is a real problem is gaining traction. As a broad overview, he's saying that excess glucose in the body that is linked to obesity, diabetes, heart disease etc., also feeds cancer cells. Dr. Seyfried is echoing the earlier conclusions in the 1920's from Otto Warburg but that was dismissed.


Dr. Seyfried was promoting a Keto diet but was initially focussing on the role of fat but the impact of glucose in the body is where he turned his attention.

It makes sense that if you deprive the cancer cells or the brain (e.g. epileptics) of the fuel source that works best for them that you might make some sort of difference.
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Interestingly enough, breast feed infants are in ketosis naturally.

Nutrition is so complicated that it always helps to point out that context matters.

Diabetic Ketoacidosis is very specific to type 1 diabetics. No insulin, high glucose, and high ketones is the perfect storm.
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Re: Ketosis..ever get yourself there? [svennn] [ In reply to ]
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Diabetic Ketoacidosis is very specific to type 1 diabetics. No insulin, high glucose, and high ketones is the perfect storm.



Yes, Type 1 diabetes is very different and not something to mess with. All of the reading I've done focuses on adult onset diabetes and the impact of a Keto diet but I realize that doesn't apply to Type 1.

I find the entire discussion of the food industry promoting sugar and processed foods, the role of pharmaceutical companies promoting their drugs, insulin resistance, the role of glucose in chronic diseases etc., to be fascinating.

It seems to me that the system we have from mass food production, the control of special interest groups in food, the promotion of questionable science (i.e. we need 6 meals a day), and the involvement in food companies in setting dietary guidelines to be a big problem. It appears that a lot of the assumptions in the broken model are coming under serious attack and I hope it continues.

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