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Nord Stream Sabotage
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https://www.newsweek.com/...what-we-dont-1747086

This is a pretty interesting development. Let the conspiracy theories begin!

Whodunit?

US? Force the EU's hand...

Russia? Watch out EU, your undersea pipes are next...

Ukraine? Take the ability of Russia to restart N1 off the table...

Norway? "the leaks were reported a day before the inaugural opening of the Baltic pipeline, running from Norway to Poland..."


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: Sep 28, 22 9:17
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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When I was scanning the forum, I thought this thread might be about a scheme to sabotage the perfume and unmentionables counters at a major department store chain.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
When I was scanning the forum, I thought this thread might be about a scheme to sabotage the perfume and unmentionables counters at a major department store chain.


Ok, ok. Thread title typo corrected...


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
When I was scanning the forum, I thought this thread might be about a scheme to sabotage the perfume and unmentionables counters at a major department store chain.

I did that too
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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The talking head on BBC said only a major nation would have the resources to pull this off and that it had to be Russia. Could there be satellite images of boats in the area when it happened?

I guess what I don't get is why blow them up? Don't the Russians control them? Why not just not use them if you want to cut off the gas to Europe?

Talking head was saying it's a typical Putin threat, non-threat that the other new pipeline is at risk, communication cables, etc.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
The talking head on BBC said only a major nation would have the resources to pull this off and that it had to be Russia. Could there be satellite images of boats in the area when it happened?

I guess what I don't get is why blow them up? Don't the Russians control them? Why not just not use them if you want to cut off the gas to Europe?

Talking head was saying it's a typical Putin threat, non-threat that the other new pipeline is at risk, communication cables, etc.

The Russians already shut the pipeline down. They haven't been pumping gas into it for months
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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g_lev wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
The talking head on BBC said only a major nation would have the resources to pull this off and that it had to be Russia. Could there be satellite images of boats in the area when it happened?

I guess what I don't get is why blow them up? Don't the Russians control them? Why not just not use them if you want to cut off the gas to Europe?

Talking head was saying it's a typical Putin threat, non-threat that the other new pipeline is at risk, communication cables, etc.


The Russians already shut the pipeline down. They haven't been pumping gas into it for months

Right, so why damage it? Is there some struggle going on between Gazprom and the Russian Govt.? Or it was just some way of threatening Europe and since they aren't using it anyway no skin off their back at the moment?
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [Constantine] [ In reply to ]
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Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.

Apparently explosions were detected.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.

I think the US did it.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [svennn] [ In reply to ]
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svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


I think the US did it.

Why?
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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The LR eagerly anticipates ericMPro waking up, dusting off the Cheetos dust and spilled Mountain Dew Code Red, and explaining to us what the "op" is in this instance, and how it's tied to everything else going on in the world...

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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My money is on Poland. They've been furious about both pipelines, and may have found this the perfect opportunity to disable them for good and not take any blame. Look also at the reactions of Polish people on Twitter.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [malte] [ In reply to ]
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malte wrote:
My money is on Poland. They've been furious about both pipelines, and may have found this the perfect opportunity to disable them for good and not take any blame. Look also at the reactions of Polish people on Twitter.

I find it hard to believe a NATO country would risk getting caught doing that. Occam suggests the list is limited to Russia and Ukraine.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.

It’s definitely a curious situation, the thing about sabotage is the depth of the pipe,
On average 200’ deep that’s special diving.
It’s not a continuous pipe there are connecting sections.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
The LR eagerly anticipates ericMPro waking up, dusting off the Cheetos dust and spilled Mountain Dew Code Red, and explaining to us what the "op" is in this instance, and how it's tied to everything else going on in the world...

"$12/gal gas by 31 OCT. Bread shortages. Count on it."

E
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [Constantine] [ In reply to ]
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Constantine wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


It’s definitely a curious situation, the thing about sabotage is the depth of the pipe,
On average 200’ deep that’s special diving.
It’s not a continuous pipe there are connecting sections.

I heard a guy speculate the Russians could have sent something down the pipe to explode!
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


It’s definitely a curious situation, the thing about sabotage is the depth of the pipe,
On average 200’ deep that’s special diving.
It’s not a continuous pipe there are connecting sections.


I heard a guy speculate the Russians could have sent something down the pipe to explode!

With pressurized gas in the pipe, would that not blow the entire pipe?
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [M~] [ In reply to ]
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M~ wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


It’s definitely a curious situation, the thing about sabotage is the depth of the pipe,
On average 200’ deep that’s special diving.
It’s not a continuous pipe there are connecting sections.


I heard a guy speculate the Russians could have sent something down the pipe to explode!


With pressurized gas in the pipe, would that not blow the entire pipe?

I have no idea, maybe the commentator who said it doesn't either?
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


It’s definitely a curious situation, the thing about sabotage is the depth of the pipe,
On average 200’ deep that’s special diving.
It’s not a continuous pipe there are connecting sections.


I heard a guy speculate the Russians could have sent something down the pipe to explode!

That pipe, although shut down, was full of pressurized gas. I can't imagine it would be that easy to insert some kind of device into a pressurized pipe in such a way that it could crawl a few hundred miles then explode.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [M~] [ In reply to ]
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M~ wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


It’s definitely a curious situation, the thing about sabotage is the depth of the pipe,
On average 200’ deep that’s special diving.
It’s not a continuous pipe there are connecting sections.


I heard a guy speculate the Russians could have sent something down the pipe to explode!


With pressurized gas in the pipe, would that not blow the entire pipe?


The sections which are 12m in length and I’m sure they way over engineered them dealing with pressure.With most systems failure happens at the connections.
Also when they lay the pipe they had to clear the path on the ocean of old bombs and mines from two world wars, there is a lot of stuff on the ocean floor.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
g_lev wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
The talking head on BBC said only a major nation would have the resources to pull this off and that it had to be Russia. Could there be satellite images of boats in the area when it happened?

I guess what I don't get is why blow them up? Don't the Russians control them? Why not just not use them if you want to cut off the gas to Europe?

Talking head was saying it's a typical Putin threat, non-threat that the other new pipeline is at risk, communication cables, etc.


The Russians already shut the pipeline down. They haven't been pumping gas into it for months


Right, so why damage it? Is there some struggle going on between Gazprom and the Russian Govt.? Or it was just some way of threatening Europe and since they aren't using it anyway no skin off their back at the moment?

From a negotiation perspective maybe it makes sense. A working pipeline that is currently shut off but could be turned back on, is a different bargaining chip than a pipeline that is off and will have to stay off until repaired.

I don't know a thing about undersea pipelines, but I would not be surprised if repairs can't be completed until after the winter season...which might reinforce the Russians' hand of trying to use cold weather/high energy prices in Europe as political leverage.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [wimsey] [ In reply to ]
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wimsey wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
g_lev wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
The talking head on BBC said only a major nation would have the resources to pull this off and that it had to be Russia. Could there be satellite images of boats in the area when it happened?

I guess what I don't get is why blow them up? Don't the Russians control them? Why not just not use them if you want to cut off the gas to Europe?

Talking head was saying it's a typical Putin threat, non-threat that the other new pipeline is at risk, communication cables, etc.


The Russians already shut the pipeline down. They haven't been pumping gas into it for months


Right, so why damage it? Is there some struggle going on between Gazprom and the Russian Govt.? Or it was just some way of threatening Europe and since they aren't using it anyway no skin off their back at the moment?


From a negotiation perspective maybe it makes sense. A working pipeline that is currently shut off but could be turned back on, is a different bargaining chip than a pipeline that is off and will have to stay off until repaired.

I don't know a thing about undersea pipelines, but I would not be surprised if repairs can't be completed until after the winter season...which might reinforce the Russians' hand of trying to use cold weather/high energy prices in Europe as political leverage.

But if the Russians no longer have the option of turning the gas back on, doesn't that remove their bargaining chip?
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
wimsey wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
g_lev wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
The talking head on BBC said only a major nation would have the resources to pull this off and that it had to be Russia. Could there be satellite images of boats in the area when it happened?

I guess what I don't get is why blow them up? Don't the Russians control them? Why not just not use them if you want to cut off the gas to Europe?

Talking head was saying it's a typical Putin threat, non-threat that the other new pipeline is at risk, communication cables, etc.


The Russians already shut the pipeline down. They haven't been pumping gas into it for months


Right, so why damage it? Is there some struggle going on between Gazprom and the Russian Govt.? Or it was just some way of threatening Europe and since they aren't using it anyway no skin off their back at the moment?


From a negotiation perspective maybe it makes sense. A working pipeline that is currently shut off but could be turned back on, is a different bargaining chip than a pipeline that is off and will have to stay off until repaired.

I don't know a thing about undersea pipelines, but I would not be surprised if repairs can't be completed until after the winter season...which might reinforce the Russians' hand of trying to use cold weather/high energy prices in Europe as political leverage.

But if the Russians no longer have the option of turning the gas back on, doesn't that remove their bargaining chip?

It changes the nature of the bargaining chip. It certainly seems to reduce their options. But that may be useful to them somehow (if it's sabotage, and done by the Russians). Sort of a double down, "the only way out is to go deeper into the crisis" kind of thinking.

I don't know. It does seem like it would be counterproductive to the Russians. But maybe they don't want to get into a negotiation against the rest of the Western world. Maybe Putin likes to try to present stark options of (1) threaten to use nukes, and/or (2) freezing Western Europe with fewer available options to remedy that cold winter, as a way of trying to raise the stakes and bluff his way out of this.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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Thom wrote:
Occam suggests the list is limited to Russia and Ukraine.

intra Russia power play? Play nice or this is what happens?

Ukraine's pretty busy at the moment
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [wimsey] [ In reply to ]
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wimsey wrote:
It changes the nature of the bargaining chip. It certainly seems to reduce their options. But that may be useful to them somehow (if it's sabotage, and done by the Russians). Sort of a double down, "the only way out is to go deeper into the crisis" kind of thinking.

I don't know. It does seem like it would be counterproductive to the Russians. But maybe they don't want to get into a negotiation against the rest of the Western world. Maybe Putin likes to try to present stark options of (1) threaten to use nukes, and/or (2) freezing Western Europe with fewer available options to remedy that cold winter, as a way of trying to raise the stakes and bluff his way out of this.

If it's Russia, there's also the implied threat to western undersea assets -- pipelines, communication cables, etc.


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
wimsey wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
g_lev wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
The talking head on BBC said only a major nation would have the resources to pull this off and that it had to be Russia. Could there be satellite images of boats in the area when it happened?

I guess what I don't get is why blow them up? Don't the Russians control them? Why not just not use them if you want to cut off the gas to Europe?

Talking head was saying it's a typical Putin threat, non-threat that the other new pipeline is at risk, communication cables, etc.


The Russians already shut the pipeline down. They haven't been pumping gas into it for months


Right, so why damage it? Is there some struggle going on between Gazprom and the Russian Govt.? Or it was just some way of threatening Europe and since they aren't using it anyway no skin off their back at the moment?


From a negotiation perspective maybe it makes sense. A working pipeline that is currently shut off but could be turned back on, is a different bargaining chip than a pipeline that is off and will have to stay off until repaired.

I don't know a thing about undersea pipelines, but I would not be surprised if repairs can't be completed until after the winter season...which might reinforce the Russians' hand of trying to use cold weather/high energy prices in Europe as political leverage.


But if the Russians no longer have the option of turning the gas back on, doesn't that remove their bargaining chip?

Only the Russians can fix the pipe. The design IP belongs to them. Effectively now the heat gets turned back on when Russia gets their way + the time it takes to repair the pipe.

This was an outrageous thing for Putin to do, a total betrayal of any partnership between Russia and the rest of the EU. He is acting like a jilted spouse. Germany made a huge mistake when they turned off their nuclear power plants.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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/r

Steve
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Nordstream 1 has 2 detonations and the next day the new pipeline from Denmark to Poland opens up.

The next day a new pipeline opens

Former Polish Defense Minister say's US blew up Russian Gas Pipelines

Der Spiegel Magazine say's US Forces were behind it

CIA informed Germans ahead of time

Biden say's if Russia invades Ukraine there will no longer be a Nordstream , We will bring an end to it.

Reporter says But how will you

Biden says I promise you, we will be able to do that

Denmark said it will host US Forces on it's territory

The new Baltic Pipeline opens on Oct 1, 3 months earlier.

The US did this !
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


I think the US did it.


Why?

Means and motivation.
Quote Reply
Re: Nordstream Sabotage [svennn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


I think the US did it.


Why?


Means and motivation.

What's the motivation?
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ThisIsIt wrote:
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


I think the US did it.


Why?


Means and motivation.


What's the motivation?

$$$$
Quote Reply
Re: Nordstream Sabotage [svennn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


I think the US did it.


Why?


Means and motivation.


What's the motivation?


$$$$

How so?
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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There is no place else they can sell that gas, so I'm not sure why they want to sabotage that.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [svennn] [ In reply to ]
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So we’ve gone from a proxy war to real war?
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Is there any way of a non Russian country using the pipeline to move gas to Europe? Norway maybe? Ifso are the Russians trying to remove that option? Sweden just reported a fourth leak.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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FishyJoe wrote:
There is no place else they can sell that gas, so I'm not sure why they want to sabotage that.

That seems to be the thing, it's not really obviously in anyone's interest to sabotage it.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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It's kind of a wild idea, but maybe Putin has come to believe that all is lost and this is a "scorched earth" move like Saddam burning the oil fields.


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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I saw on Twitter that it was a gender reveal snafu.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [HiKai] [ In reply to ]
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HiKai wrote:
Nordstream 1 has 2 detonations and the next day the new pipeline from Denmark to Poland opens up.

The next day a new pipeline opens

Former Polish Defense Minister say's US blew up Russian Gas Pipelines

Der Spiegel Magazine say's US Forces were behind it

CIA informed Germans ahead of time

Biden say's if Russia invades Ukraine there will no longer be a Nordstream , We will bring an end to it.

Reporter says But how will you

Biden says I promise you, we will be able to do that

Denmark said it will host US Forces on it's territory

The new Baltic Pipeline opens on Oct 1, 3 months earlier.

The US did this !

Russia did it specifically to get people to buy into this BS narrative. Russia thrives on chaos. This is chaos.
Quote Reply
Re: Nordstream Sabotage [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
g_lev wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


It’s definitely a curious situation, the thing about sabotage is the depth of the pipe,
On average 200’ deep that’s special diving.
It’s not a continuous pipe there are connecting sections.


I heard a guy speculate the Russians could have sent something down the pipe to explode!


That pipe, although shut down, was full of pressurized gas. I can't imagine it would be that easy to insert some kind of device into a pressurized pipe in such a way that it could crawl a few hundred miles then explode.


Albeit usually shorter distances, that is exactly how gas pipes ARE inspected - with a 'pig' or rabbit' (or what ever else they get called)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-flTV0QtQA


It may have exploded now. But it could have been send down the pipe weeks or months ago when there was still some gas flow.
Maybe the unexpected outages a few weeks ago were exactly related to this.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [JacobB1111] [ In reply to ]
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JacobB1111 wrote:
HiKai wrote:
Nordstream 1 has 2 detonations and the next day the new pipeline from Denmark to Poland opens up.


The next day a new pipeline opens

Former Polish Defense Minister say's US blew up Russian Gas Pipelines

Der Spiegel Magazine say's US Forces were behind it

CIA informed Germans ahead of time

Biden say's if Russia invades Ukraine there will no longer be a Nordstream , We will bring an end to it.

Reporter says But how will you

Biden says I promise you, we will be able to do that

Denmark said it will host US Forces on it's territory

The new Baltic Pipeline opens on Oct 1, 3 months earlier.

The US did this !


Russia did it specifically to get people to buy into this BS narrative. Russia thrives on chaos. This is chaos.


It reminds me of Russian propaganda techniques being put into action for the war effort.


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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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TimeIsUp wrote:
So we’ve gone from a proxy war to real war?


That's somewhat an insult to Ukrainians. It's very much a real war to them, and while they're getting tons of help, they are very much fighting in their own, direct interest, not the interest of some external influence.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 30, 22 4:41
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [svennn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


I think the US did it.

Seal Team 6
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
TimeIsUp wrote:
So we’ve gone from a proxy war to real war?


That's somewhat an insult to Ukrainians. It's very much a real war to them, and while they're getting tons of help, they are very much fighting in their own, direct interest, not the interest of some external influence.

Sorry, I meant the US. Wouldn’t a strike on infrastructure coming directly from us be a declaration of war?
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [Clutch Cargo] [ In reply to ]
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Clutch Cargo wrote:


Seal Team 6


Hmm. I still don't see a clear motivation for the U.S. There is indirect motivation, but I don't see a strong risk-reward equation. The U.S. is already "winning" the battle for strong EU commitment against Russia. I don't see a clear motivation for sabotaging U.S. partners and strong allies in order to "help them" stay committed.

My theory is internal Gazprom conflict, amounting to internal Russian conflict.

So far in 2022, we've had several suspicious fatalities at Gazprom including the "Director of Transport." I put it at roughly a half dozen high level people with ties to Gazprom. Could be oligarch backlash, "You want to fuck with us? Fine."

Also I'd assume that the larger Gazprom sphere of support and maintenance contractors have the technical chops to pull off sabotage of their own pipeline.

This self-sabotage logic is probematic. But *every* rationale is problematic.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 30, 22 5:41
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TimeIsUp wrote:
trail wrote:
TimeIsUp wrote:
So we’ve gone from a proxy war to real war?


That's somewhat an insult to Ukrainians. It's very much a real war to them, and while they're getting tons of help, they are very much fighting in their own, direct interest, not the interest of some external influence.


Sorry, I meant the US. Wouldn’t a strike on infrastructure coming directly from us be a declaration of war?

You'd have to ask the Russians how they see it.

The US hasn't declared war since WWII.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Clutch Cargo wrote:


Seal Team 6


Hmm. I still don't see a clear motivation for the U.S. There is indirect motivation, but I don't see a strong risk-reward equation. The U.S. is already "winning" the battle for strong EU commitment against Russia. I don't see a clear motivation for sabotaging U.S. partners and strong allies in order to "help them" stay committed.

My theory is internal Gazprom conflict, amounting to internal Russian conflict.

So far in 2022, we've had several suspicious fatalities at Gazprom including the "Director of Transport." I put it at roughly a half dozen high level people with ties to Gazprom. Could be oligarch backlash, "You want to fuck with us? Fine."

Also I'd assume that the larger Gazprom sphere of support and maintenance contractors have the technical chops to pull off sabotage of their own pipeline.

This self-sabotage logic is probematic. But *every* rationale is problematic.

Seems to me it makes the least sense for the US or Poland, etc. to do it when everyone pretty much recognizes that the most important factor in Ukraine success is the West's unity and willingness to continue supporting Ukraine with war material. Especially when the gas is turned off anyway.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [Clutch Cargo] [ In reply to ]
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Clutch Cargo wrote:
svennn wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


I think the US did it.


Seal Team 6

I've got to see significant amount of evidence before I am ready to agree that this was sabotage. And on top of that, there needs to quite a bit more before I agree that the US attacked a Russian pipeline.

IF all of those things were true, DevGru would have done it.

But, I doubt they did.

Suffer Well.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [HiKai] [ In reply to ]
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HiKai wrote:
The US did this !

Your entire post is nonsensical Russian propaganda.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [TimeIsUp] [ In reply to ]
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TimeIsUp wrote:

Sorry, I meant the US. Wouldn’t a strike on infrastructure coming directly from us be a declaration of war?

I wouldn't call clandestine (relatively) minor damage to non-operational pipelines in international waters very close to strong U.S. allies a very good "declaration of war."

Pretty passive-aggressive, not 'Murican style. I'd hope we open up WWIII a little stronger than that. :)
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Clutch Cargo wrote:


Seal Team 6


Hmm. I still don't see a clear motivation for the U.S. There is indirect motivation, but I don't see a strong risk-reward equation. The U.S. is already "winning" the battle for strong EU commitment against Russia. I don't see a clear motivation for sabotaging U.S. partners and strong allies in order to "help them" stay committed.

My theory is internal Gazprom conflict, amounting to internal Russian conflict.

So far in 2022, we've had several suspicious fatalities at Gazprom including the "Director of Transport." I put it at roughly a half dozen high level people with ties to Gazprom. Could be oligarch backlash, "You want to fuck with us? Fine."

Also I'd assume that the larger Gazprom sphere of support and maintenance contractors have the technical chops to pull off sabotage of their own pipeline.

This self-sabotage logic is probematic. But *every* rationale is problematic.

It could also be an external Gazprom conflict.

Gazprom is contractually obligated to deliver a specific amount of gas or they will have to pay large penalties. It is clear that Putin wants to shut off the flow and make Europe suffer all winter. Sabotaging it lets Putin cut off the flow of gas without Gazprom being in financial trouble.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Nutella] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nutella wrote:
HiKai wrote:

The US did this !


Your entire post is nonsensical Russian propaganda.

Seems like just the sort of thing Russia tries to achieve with their propaganda efforts.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ThisIsIt wrote:
Nutella wrote:
HiKai wrote:

The US did this !


Your entire post is nonsensical Russian propaganda.


Seems like just the sort of thing Russia tries to achieve with their propaganda efforts.

Fortunately, we have Tucker Carlson to declare that the US did this, and then to offer potential retaliation options for Russia.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Nutella] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nutella wrote:
HiKai wrote:

The US did this !


Your entire post is nonsensical Russian propaganda.


We have a winner! Bottom line, Russia is losing and is desperate. They completely misjudged EU/US resolve in accepting the costs for supporting Ukraine. This is a threat, pure and simple, that Putin is willing to escalate the conflict, no matter the cost. There is no incentive at all for the US to sow chaos and attack the assets of allies, when Ukraine is at a huge advantage, buoyed by US support. CIA warned allies in June that they had intel about a possible attack. Thuggish sabotage is right in Russia's wheel house.
Last edited by: oldandslow: Sep 30, 22 13:53
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Nutella wrote:
HiKai wrote:

The US did this !


Your entire post is nonsensical Russian propaganda.


Seems like just the sort of thing Russia tries to achieve with their propaganda efforts.


Fortunately, we have Tucker Carlson to declare that the US did this, and then to offer potential retaliation options for Russia.

I've never actually seen the guy other than what has been posted here but I had figured that most of that type of rhetoric had dried up given that even the Russian trolls let alone the American useful idiots don't seem to pop up nearly as often in the comments section of news articles or Youtube or on Facebook.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, that seems the most likely interpretation.

The leaks smell of desperation. And one party appears to be the most desperate.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Dollars to doughnuts this was Russia. It’s got Russian fingerprints all over it: sabotage the pipeline to show that Europe’s resistance has consequences, whilst at the same time saying “no, no, zees voz not uz - vee are not krayzee schtupid!â€

It’s when they say they aren’t crazy stupid enough to do this that you know for sure that it was them.

Russia is now engaged in a military war in Ukraine and an economic war in Europe. It’s just that no one wants to say the second but out loud.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [Nutella] [ In reply to ]
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General reply, for those who are interested in a report on European gas usage and plans for diversification (this report was pre sabotage)

https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/german-gas-policy/

Maurice
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Greg66] [ In reply to ]
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Greg66 wrote:
Russia is now engaged in a military war in Ukraine and an economic war in Europe. It’s just that no one wants to say the second but out loud.

I thought that was largely the purpose of the sanctions? Secondarily denies them the high tech hardware for military equipment.

It's kind of crazy, given that Russia has an economy not much larger than that of Spain, and less than that of Italy, France, Canada, Germany, UK, and of course the US.

Unless Ukraine morale fails, which seems very unlikely, Russia's only hope really is to hold out long enough that someone like Trump gets elected and screws up the resolve of the western powers.

Just like WWII was all but over once the US entered, this is all but over as long as the western economies deliver the goods to Ukraine.
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Re: Nordstream Sabotage [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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g_lev wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Constantine wrote:
Sabotage ? I’ll go with shitty craftsmanship.


Apparently explosions were detected.


It’s definitely a curious situation, the thing about sabotage is the depth of the pipe,
On average 200’ deep that’s special diving.
It’s not a continuous pipe there are connecting sections.


I heard a guy speculate the Russians could have sent something down the pipe to explode!


That pipe, although shut down, was full of pressurized gas. I can't imagine it would be that easy to insert some kind of device into a pressurized pipe in such a way that it could crawl a few hundred miles then explode.

Pipelines both gas and oil send PIGs (pipleline inspection gauge) through pipelines. They inspect the pipeline and can clean out sludge, I don't think they should explode, but it would not be hard to rig one to explode.

I read they normally pig the Nord stream pipeline once a year. The pipeline was down for maintenance so it seem like a good time to use a pig. At this point I do not think they have determined an internal or external explosion.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Crazy thing is that it really could have been any of them.! Personally, my finger is pointing towards the US. Russia is certainly mad enough to do it, but I think the US possibly has more to gain?

Like most current issues, there is a HUGE amount of propaganda coming out all both sides. None of us can really say what is true or false. We just have to accept that the vast majority of it is BS.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Hiphophopper] [ In reply to ]
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Hiphophopper wrote:
but I think the US possibly has more to gain? .

More to lose, though. If it ever came out that the U.S. was sabotaging infrastructure that serves strong European allies, it'd risk the unified support it has in supporting Ukraine. Also high risk because a direct U.S. strike on Russia assets is a clear escalation. And I don't see a need for high risk activities given things are seemingly going well for the U.S.

Don't see milquetoast Biden signing off on high visibility sabotage.

Could be wrong, though.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
...Don't see milquetoast Biden signing off on high visibility sabotage...

Shirley you've been following Eric's "Dark Brandon" thread. :-)


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Hiphophopper] [ In reply to ]
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Hiphophopper wrote:
Crazy thing is that it really could have been any of them.! Personally, my finger is pointing towards the US. Russia is certainly mad enough to do it, but I think the US possibly has more to gain?

Like most current issues, there is a HUGE amount of propaganda coming out all both sides. None of us can really say what is true or false. We just have to accept that the vast majority of it is BS.

Eyeroll emoji
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Hiphophopper] [ In reply to ]
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Hiphophopper wrote:
but I think the US possibly has more to gain?

Name one thing the US has to gain.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Hiphophopper] [ In reply to ]
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Hiphophopper wrote:
Crazy thing is that it really could have been any of them.! Personally, my finger is pointing towards the US. Russia is certainly mad enough to do it, but I think the US possibly has more to gain?

Like most current issues, there is a HUGE amount of propaganda coming out all both sides. None of us can really say what is true or false. We just have to accept that the vast majority of it is BS.

What propaganda? Seems like almost everything I’ve read has been pretty measured, basically saying we don’t know who did it at this point but it was probably the Russians.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
slowguy wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Nutella wrote:
HiKai wrote:

The US did this !


Your entire post is nonsensical Russian propaganda.


Seems like just the sort of thing Russia tries to achieve with their propaganda efforts.


Fortunately, we have Tucker Carlson to declare that the US did this, and then to offer potential retaliation options for Russia.


I am not sure whether that was prescience on your part, but yep.

https://www.foxnews.com/...-war-means-end-world

I take it you know who Lord Haw-Haw was. Well, the US has its very own domestically resident Lord Haw-Haw in the shape of Tucker.
Last edited by: Greg66: Oct 4, 22 8:27
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Greg66] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Greg66 wrote:
slowguy wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Nutella wrote:
HiKai wrote:

The US did this !


Your entire post is nonsensical Russian propaganda.


Seems like just the sort of thing Russia tries to achieve with their propaganda efforts.


Fortunately, we have Tucker Carlson to declare that the US did this, and then to offer potential retaliation options for Russia.


I am not sure whether that was prescience on your part, but yep.

https://www.foxnews.com/...-war-means-end-world

I take it you know who Lard Haw-Haw was. Well, the US has its very own domestically resident Lord Haw-Haw in the shape of Tucker.

Someone should move into a few rooms in Tucker's house and threaten to blow the whole thing up if they try to force him to leave. I'm sure Tucker would acquiesce and let them just have those rooms.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not directly referring to the pipeline issue, more to the conflict as a whole. Media coverage is in no way neutral so cannot be considered totally reliable.

We currently have a Ukrainian refugee and her son living with the couple next door to us and over the look at few months they've almost become part of the family...but they has also told me a lot about the darker side of Ukraine.

Don't get me wrong Putin is a nut job and needs to be defeated ASAP, but please don't for one minute think that Ukraine is a perfect place, full of nice euro type people...it really isn't.

Or that we in 'the west' are completely blameless. NATO has been using Ukraine as a base for 'excersises' which is nothing short of poking that big russian bear with a stick.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Hiphophopper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hiphophopper wrote:
I'm not directly referring to the pipeline issue, more to the conflict as a whole. Media coverage is in no way neutral so cannot be considered totally reliable.

We currently have a Ukrainian refugee and her son living with the couple next door to us and over the look at few months they've almost become part of the family...but they has also told me a lot about the darker side of Ukraine.

Don't get me wrong Putin is a nut job and needs to be defeated ASAP, but please don't for one minute think that Ukraine is a perfect place, full of nice euro type people...it really isn't.

Or that we in 'the west' are completely blameless. NATO has been using Ukraine as a base for 'excersises' which is nothing short of poking that big russian bear with a stick.


I don't have any such illusions. Pretty much everyone describes Ukraine as a fledgling, flawed democracy, rife with corruption. And people are people, there will be good and awful people everywhere which is why you need institutions and institutional norms to controls things. I think it's fair to say Ukraine is miles of head of Russian in those regards, Russia in fact seems to hardly care about such things.

As for the last point, Russia can fuck off, they don't get to tell other nations how to conduct their affairs. NATO hasn't imposed itself on any country, the expansion of NATO has occurred because of countries requesting entry, mostly for protection from Russia (e.g. Finland, Sweden, and now most recently Ukraine).

The US would be just as unjust in invading Mexico or Cuba if those countries were sidling up to Russia or China and allowing them to conduct military operations there.

As far as media bias goes, yes it's obviously there, so use those critical thinking skills people should have learned in school. The media most people consume is just sound bites with no depth anyway, but the depth is there for anyone who cares to look for it.
Last edited by: ThisIsIt: Oct 4, 22 3:44
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Hiphophopper] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Wow. So much to unpack here.

Hiphophopper wrote:
I'm not directly referring to the pipeline issue, more to the conflict as a whole. Media coverage is in no way neutral so cannot be considered totally reliable.

Care to elaborate how/where media coverage is not neutral? The coverage I see seems to be pretty much fact-based reporting and representation of different opinions about which path forward is warranted. If you refer to the fact that few media reports paint the Russian side as the good guys: well, that wouldn't really be truthful, would it?

Hiphophopper wrote:
We currently have a Ukrainian refugee and her son living with the couple next door to us and over the look at few months they've almost become part of the family...but they has also told me a lot about the darker side of Ukraine.

Don't get me wrong Putin is a nut job and needs to be defeated ASAP, but please don't for one minute think that Ukraine is a perfect place, full of nice euro type people...it really isn't.

Shocker: there are some not-so-nice people in Ukraine! Who has ever claimed otherwise? What exactly does that have to do with the situation at hand?

Hiphophopper wrote:
Or that we in 'the west' are completely blameless. NATO has been using Ukraine as a base for 'excersises' which is nothing short of poking that big russian bear with a stick.

Excuse my french, but this part is utter bullshit. Putin and his cronies have staged an illegal landgrab in 2014 (after having sworn to eternally respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine). Following that, Ukraine turned to NATO countries (not NATO itself) with requests for help in training of their defence forces because they feared further hostilities from Russia (fully justified, as it turns out). Ukrainian NATO membership or permanent presence of NATO troops in Ukraine were never realistically on the table before the invasion, and the recent events have made it very clear that it really never was about NATO to begin with.
Also, I completely reject the notion that Russia is in any way shape or form entitled to some form of "influence sphere" outside their own internationally recognized borders. Don't like the fact that your neighbors look elsewhere for cooperation (and inspiration)? Become a better neighbor!
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [malte] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
malte wrote:
Wow. So much to unpack here.

Hiphophopper wrote:
I'm not directly referring to the pipeline issue, more to the conflict as a whole. Media coverage is in no way neutral so cannot be considered totally reliable.


Care to elaborate how/where media coverage is not neutral? The coverage I see seems to be pretty much fact-based reporting and representation of different opinions about which path forward is warranted. If you refer to the fact that few media reports paint the Russian side as the good guys: well, that wouldn't really be truthful, would it?

Hiphophopper wrote:
We currently have a Ukrainian refugee and her son living with the couple next door to us and over the look at few months they've almost become part of the family...but they has also told me a lot about the darker side of Ukraine.

Don't get me wrong Putin is a nut job and needs to be defeated ASAP, but please don't for one minute think that Ukraine is a perfect place, full of nice euro type people...it really isn't.


Shocker: there are some not-so-nice people in Ukraine! Who has ever claimed otherwise? What exactly does that have to do with the situation at hand?

Hiphophopper wrote:
Or that we in 'the west' are completely blameless. NATO has been using Ukraine as a base for 'excersises' which is nothing short of poking that big russian bear with a stick.


Excuse my french, but this part is utter bullshit. Putin and his cronies have staged an illegal landgrab in 2014 (after having sworn to eternally respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine). Following that, Ukraine turned to NATO countries (not NATO itself) with requests for help in training of their defence forces because they feared further hostilities from Russia (fully justified, as it turns out). Ukrainian NATO membership or permanent presence of NATO troops in Ukraine were never realistically on the table before the invasion, and the recent events have made it very clear that it really never was about NATO to begin with.
Also, I completely reject the notion that Russia is in any way shape or form entitled to some form of "influence sphere" outside their own internationally recognized borders. Don't like the fact that your neighbors look elsewhere for cooperation (and inspiration)? Become a better neighbor!

I mean he's not entirely wrong, NATO did provoke Russia by allowing countries to join for their own self-defense which basically took them off the table as far as countries Russia could try to reconquer. So I mean, the Russians just had to go for the ones that were still out there that could be invaded. Perfectly justifiable.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Some insights on Whodunnit.




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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. Thanks. I agree that Russia is the most likely suspect -- I think it's a desperate scorched-earth move, with an implied threat to other undersea assets, that also casts aspersions on the US.

I don't think the US did this at all. But, I'm not sure I agree with the guy's reasoning that if the US did it, they wouldn't do it between the detection and attribution levels as was done.

I think that's only true if the US *looks like* they may be behind it, weakening resolve in Europe. Otherwise, sabotage between those levels serves the US interest in forcing Europe's hand by taking Russian gas off the table. That wouldn't necessarily be true *if* the US had done this below the detection threshold.

His point about a losing, desperate actor being much more willing to undertake such a risky operation is well taken, too.

I also agree that other non-Russian undersea assets may soon become targets (which points convincingly at Russia rather than any other actor).


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: Oct 4, 22 18:20
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.

Hey anything is possible, we need to feed the military industrial complex.That thing over in Ukraine is going to be a conflict for awhile and that’s business.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.

And open source data shows the ship and plane that he says his source claims were part of it, were not present on the dates that were claimed.

Not to mention most people don’t believe that a single source would actually be involved in all the aspects this source is claiming to be involved in.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.


Panama City, you say? I blame Rick_pcfl.
Also, I thought Biden was a bumbling old man? This paints him like a evil genius.

"I keep hoping for you to use your superior intellect to be less insufferable. Sadly, you continue to disappoint." - gofigure
Last edited by: sonofdad: Feb 9, 23 11:18
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Constantine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Constantine wrote:

Hey anything is possible, we need to feed the military industrial complex.That thing over in Ukraine is going to be a conflict for awhile and that’s business.

The U.S. military industrial complex is always an interesting conversation, and a real problem.

But as far as I can tell, The Complex did not manufacture the situation in Ukraine, and while the U.S./West could have shrugged and let Russia roll through to Kyiv, that could arguably have very significant negative effects to global security and U.S. national security interests.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.


And open source data shows the ship and plane that he says his source claims were part of it, were not present on the dates that were claimed.

Not to mention most people don’t believe that a single source would actually be involved in all the aspects this source is claiming to be involved in.

I was thinking that if this story is anywhere close to true this source should be pretty easy to identify since he was so intricately placed.

It is a good Tom Clancy novel but its veracity is going to be awfully difficult to confirm.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.

The founder of Bellingcat is all over Hersch as being completely unhinged and unreliable.

Some other investigation of Hersch's claims.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [sonofdad] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sonofdad wrote:
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.


Panama City, you say? I blame Rick_pcfl.
Also, I thought Biden was a bumbling old man? This paints him like a evil genius.

Haven't you learned? He is both a bumbling old senile man and an evil genius.

And MAGAts believe both to be true because they are that stupid.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [klehner] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
klehner wrote:
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.

The founder of Bellingcat is all over Hersch as being completely unhinged and unreliable.

Some other investigation of Hersch's claims.

Hersh is a total loser these days. One hit wonder.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Nutella] [ In reply to ]
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If Christopher Steele wrote that story then Adam Shiff would be reading it into the record as fact.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [svennn] [ In reply to ]
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svennn wrote:
If Christopher Steele wrote that story then Adam Shiff would be reading it into the record as fact.

Is it good or bad if true? Not sure we even got to that.

It just sounds very fantastical that one source would know all this. Clearly Hirsch has been right, and wrong, before so I'm not dismissing it completely.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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j p o wrote:
Is it good or bad if true? Not sure we even got to that.

I don't know.

I'm having a hard time grasping the major threat functional gaslines would be according to Hersch. I get it. They allow Russia to make money while simultaneously creating an energy dependence. But I'm having a hard time jumping from there to the Tom Clancy op.

But if true, I'm leaning bad. Bad to blow up property owned 49% by other-than-Russia (France/Germany/Netherlands) just off the coast of a close ally (Denmark) without the apparent consent of any of those four countries.

In fact the reason I lean against it being true, is I don't see Norway acting all cowboy with the U.S. against the interests of other EU countries like that.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [trail] [ In reply to ]
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as a bit of context 25 years ago when i was at a major publisher Hersch sent in a manuscript with Kennedy assassination 'revelations' that would blow the lid off something something

my boss dismissed it as overly speculative

fwiw which may be nothing, different circumstances, but
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [svennn] [ In reply to ]
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svennn wrote:
If Christopher Steele wrote that story then Adam Shiff would be reading it into the record as fact.

You have very active imagination.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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My impression is that Norway is an exceedingly environmentally conscious nation, and it’s unlikely their government would take a chance on having to explain something like this to their public.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [Nutella] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nutella wrote:
klehner wrote:
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.


The founder of Bellingcat is all over Hersch as being completely unhinged and unreliable.

Some other investigation of Hersch's claims.


Hersh is a total loser these days. One hit wonder.

I lost all respect for Hersch when he tried to stop the Magnitsky Act. And now this. It sure sounds like he's getting something from Russia.
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Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [schroeder] [ In reply to ]
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schroeder wrote:
Nutella wrote:
klehner wrote:
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.


The founder of Bellingcat is all over Hersch as being completely unhinged and unreliable.

Some other investigation of Hersch's claims.


Hersh is a total loser these days. One hit wonder.

I lost all respect for Hersch when he tried to stop the Magnitsky Act. And now this. It sure sounds like he's getting something from Russia.

Or he has been all along....
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BLeP wrote:
sonofdad wrote:
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.


Panama City, you say? I blame Rick_pcfl.
Also, I thought Biden was a bumbling old man? This paints him like a evil genius.


Haven't you learned? He is both a bumbling old senile man and an evil genius.

And MAGAts believe both to be true because they are that stupid.

It's interesting to watch how this sort of Russia propaganda strategy has taken hold amongst the MAGAs.

You just put anything and everything out there, some of it even contradictory, because you know different bits of it will resonate with different people but they will all end up on your side in the end because they'll just ignore the incongruous bits.

e.g. Ukraine is just a fake country that is only withstanding Russia because the West is propping it up and Russia had to invade because Ukraine was such a threat it was going to attack Russia at any moment.
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ThisIsIt wrote:
BLeP wrote:
sonofdad wrote:
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.


Panama City, you say? I blame Rick_pcfl.
Also, I thought Biden was a bumbling old man? This paints him like a evil genius.


Haven't you learned? He is both a bumbling old senile man and an evil genius.

And MAGAts believe both to be true because they are that stupid.

It's interesting to watch how this sort of Russia propaganda strategy has taken hold amongst the MAGAs.

You just put anything and everything out there, some of it even contradictory, because you know different bits of it will resonate with different people but they will all end up on your side in the end because they'll just ignore the incongruous bits.

e.g. Ukraine is just a fake country that is only withstanding Russia because the West is propping it up and Russia had to invade because Ukraine was such a threat it was going to attack Russia at any moment.

I suggest watching the Undeclared War.... it's a British fictional limited series but very on point
Quote Reply
Re: Nord Stream Sabotage [schroeder] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
schroeder wrote:
Nutella wrote:
klehner wrote:
trail wrote:
Seymour Hersch sure thinks it was the U.S.

Though I notice he had to publish this on his own substack, not through a major media source, where it'd have to pass editorial scrutiny. A lot seems to depend on one source.


The founder of Bellingcat is all over Hersch as being completely unhinged and unreliable.

Some other investigation of Hersch's claims.


Hersh is a total loser these days. One hit wonder.


I lost all respect for Hersch when he tried to stop the Magnitsky Act. And now this. It sure sounds like he's getting something from Russia.


This seems relevant to what Russia is doing here.




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