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why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten?
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Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Sep 26, 22 11:00
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I'm still baffled by how she went down during the TTT. Have they released anything about that incident yet?

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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...

Your title reads "why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten" (emphases added)

As shown in the following linked thread, at least five other posters were talking about AvV. Your initial premise having been completely debunked, your contention is meritless, and your thread is irrelevant.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...

Your title reads "why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten" (emphases added)

As shown in the following linked thread, at least five other posters were talking about AvV. Your initial premise having been completely debunked, your contention is meritless, and your thread is irrelevant.

It has been firmly established that I am, in fact, a complete and utter idiot. Nonetheless, what you reference is called "burying the lead" and I find that tactic to be unsavoury.

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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had. Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...
Carl Spackler wrote:
Incredible finish. AvV usually bludgeons the peloton, this time she showed that she’s clever too.
A classic, monument, GC in all three “tours” and WC. A stellar career of wins all in one season.
See here:
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...hread__P7660330-122/
For the crash: https://www.cyclingnews.com/...pened/#disqus_thread
@realbdeal: Slo-mo review made it clear (to amateur me) that the tyre was still on before the wheel hit the kerb. But go to the link and there's some discussion in that thread.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...

Your title reads "why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten" (emphases added)

As shown in the following linked thread, at least five other posters were talking about AvV. Your initial premise having been completely debunked, your contention is meritless, and your thread is irrelevant.

I also misspelled Annemiek's name in the search bar, and as a result did not see the discussion in which the story was buried. Regardless, I stand by my original statement that no-one is talking about it.

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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
echappist wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...


Your title reads "why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten" (emphases added)

As shown in the following linked thread, at least five other posters were talking about AvV. Your initial premise having been completely debunked, your contention is meritless, and your thread is irrelevant.


It has been firmly established that I am, in fact, a complete and utter idiot. Nonetheless, what you reference is called "burying the lead" and I find that tactic to be unsavoury.


Let's see, you start with a hyperbolic thread title (whose premise is easily debunked) to draw participation, then complains about others resorting to alleged "unsavoury" tactics. A tad rich, innit?

What lede did I bury? I went to the very first post praising her World's RR win. Would posting a screenshot suffice in unburying the lede for you?


JasoninHalifax wrote:
echappist wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...


Your title reads "why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten" (emphases added)

As shown in the following linked thread, at least five other posters were talking about AvV. Your initial premise having been completely debunked, your contention is meritless, and your thread is irrelevant.


I also misspelled Annemiek's name in the search bar, and as a result did not see the discussion in which the story was buried. Regardless, I stand by my original statement that no-one is talking about it.


Just dig deeper, eh?
Last edited by: echappist: Sep 26, 22 11:13
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
echappist wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...


Your title reads "why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten" (emphases added)

As shown in the following linked thread, at least five other posters were talking about AvV. Your initial premise having been completely debunked, your contention is meritless, and your thread is irrelevant.


It has been firmly established that I am, in fact, a complete and utter idiot. Nonetheless, what you reference is called "burying the lead" and I find that tactic to be unsavoury.

Let's see, you start with a hyperbolic thread title (whose premise is easily debunked) to draw participation, then complains about others resorting to alleged "unsavoury" tactics. A tad rich, innit?

What lede did I bury? I went to the very first post praising her World's RR win. Would posting a screenshot suffice in unburying the lede for you?

She should have had her very own thread. You know it, I know it, and I know that you know it.

SAD

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Last edited by: JasoninHalifax: Sep 26, 22 11:11
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I think after she survived the horrific crash in Rio, some witchcraft may be involved at this point

When she came roaring down the right side in the finale, all the others looked over and for half a second said "Whelp, that's it for today, girls"

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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:

She should have had her very own thread. You know it, I know it, and I know that you know it.

SAD


I see now, after committing debating sins of making a hyperbolic assertion (that was proved-to-be-false) , accusing others of something said others didn't actually do, and being proven wrong with evidence on both points, you are now tripling down by committing the additional debating sin of moving the goal post?

Your original point is no one talking about her achievement. I don't see anything saying she deserves her own thread (whether she does is not germane to debating etiquette, because your original premise didn't mention anything about a separate thread).

We can go two ways here: either you make a bona fide admission to engaging in bad-faithed debating tactics, or I can get someone else involved. We all know how much @slowman is a believer the process and in doing things the right way.
Last edited by: echappist: Sep 26, 22 11:26
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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This escalated quick......


"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:

She should have had her very own thread. You know it, I know it, and I know that you know it.

SAD


I see now, after committing debating sins of making a hyperbolic assertion (that was proved-to-be-false) , accusing others of something said others didn't actually do, and being proven wrong with evidence on both points, you are now tripling down by committing the additional debating sin of moving the goal post?

Your original point is no one talking about her achievement. I don't see anything saying she deserves her own thread (whether she does is not germane to debating etiquette, because your original premise didn't mention anything about a separate thread).

We can go two ways here: either you make a bona fide admission to engaging in bad-faithed debating tactics, or I can get someone else involved. We all know how much @slowman is a believer the process and in doing things the right way.

I admit nothing. NOTHING!!

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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure about no one speaking of her. She is the darling of the cycling world currently. She is amazingly strong and durable. Probably not a ton of discussion here about her since she isn't a triathlete and there isn't much discussion even about triathletes here other than whether we should adore or hate Lionel.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:

She should have had her very own thread. You know it, I know it, and I know that you know it.

SAD


I see now, after committing debating sins of making a hyperbolic assertion (that was proved-to-be-false) , accusing others of something said others didn't actually do, and being proven wrong with evidence on both points, you are now tripling down by committing the additional debating sin of moving the goal post?

Your original point is no one talking about her achievement. I don't see anything saying she deserves her own thread (whether she does is not germane to debating etiquette, because your original premise didn't mention anything about a separate thread).

We can go two ways here: either you make a bona fide admission to engaging in bad-faithed debating tactics, or I can get someone else involved. We all know how much @slowman is a believer the process and in doing things the right way.

Get a grip
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I mean, honestly. Look at the size of her right elbow. A badass if ever there was one.

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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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iamuwere wrote:
I'm not sure about no one speaking of her. She is the darling of the cycling world currently. She is amazingly strong and durable.
Both Lowland countries have much to cheer about. The victory tour for Annemiek and Remco will be raucous.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [Pathlete] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, either that weighed a ton or it was not aero. so she sat there all day marking what she had to mark, saved her gas for the final 1000m track sprint event!!!!

To Jason, damn right this topic is worthy of its own discussion. Giro + TdF + Vuelta + UCI worlds !!!

When Stephen Roche did it in 1987 (albeit on the Carrera team working with Dr. Conconi LOL), the Giro and Vuelta overlapped, so it was not possible to do anyway. The last time anyone was close was Froome holding all three Grand Tour titles simultaneouly (TdF, then Vuelta, then Giro, then finished third to Thomas in TdF 2018. But inside a 365 day window he held all three, but Sagan won the UCI Worlds and Froome was third at ITT behind Dumoulin and Roglic


Pathlete wrote:
I mean, honestly. Look at the size of her right elbow. A badass if ever there was one.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...

Because she's in minor league cycling; against better competition and or in a full (e.g. mens) distance race that simply would not be possible. The win at worlds was almost comical, there is a lead pack that looks like they are kind of soft pedaling and sizing each other up for the sprint, and don't seem to notice she's coming at full speed (no radios to warn them) and then nobody really reacts and they just watch her roll by until they react when its too late. One the hand, good flyer by her, on the other hand just incredibly poor tactics and awareness by the main bunch.

And this "broken elbow" is obviously an exaggeration, it has got to be some kind of very minor hairline fracture or she simply would not be riding a bike.

The way to get people (or at least me) interested in womens cycling is have at least one amateur masters mens team or a team of Cat 3s in the races and see if the women can actually beat them. It would raise the bar on both sides and would be very sporting. Imagine a race series for amateur men to qualify to be the "guest team" in Women's world tour events.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Who?
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...


Because she's in minor league cycling; against better competition and or in a full (e.g. mens) distance race that simply would not be possible. The win at worlds was almost comical, there is a lead pack that looks like they are kind of soft pedaling and sizing each other up for the sprint, and don't seem to notice she's coming at full speed (no radios to warn them) and then nobody really reacts and they just watch her roll by until they react when its too late. One the hand, good flyer by her, on the other hand just incredibly poor tactics and awareness by the main bunch.

And this "broken elbow" is obviously an exaggeration, it has got to be some kind of very minor hairline fracture or she simply would not be riding a bike.

The way to get people (or at least me) interested in womens cycling is have at least one amateur masters mens team or a team of Cat 3s in the races and see if the women can actually beat them. It would raise the bar on both sides and would be very sporting. Imagine a race series for amateur men to qualify to be the "guest team" in Women's world tour events.

You do realize that kilo maneuvers do work in “full distance” men’s racing, right?

Dan Martin did it at Lombardia in 2014. Freire did it at Worlds in 99

The rest of your post, the less said about it the better
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:

The rest of your post, the less said about it the better

truth hurts right?

the only way to really get people (I mean men, because it is very clear women don't care about womens professional sports in any meaningful way or there would be about 100X greater ticket sales and TV revenue) interested in womens sports is to make them more interesting. "Professional" women riding bikes as fast as many of the guys in an amateur local/regional road race is not interesting (ever see how many people pay attention to the guys in these races, nobody, actually even less people than pay attention to most womens professional sports).

But I can see that causes lots of contortions for those sticking to the story that "they are just as good and capable as the men" (which we scientifically know is not correct), because the only way to make them interesting would inherently involve accepting the inequality and then using that as an advantage or leverage to create interest. People are smarter than you think, when you want to systematically create false narratives around something, they will often just ignore you.

Which, is also the answer to this original thread (why is no one talking about........)
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
But I can see that causes lots of contortions for those sticking to the story that "they are just as good and capable as the men" (which we scientifically know is not correct), because the only way to make them interesting would inherently involve accepting the inequality and then using that as an advantage or leverage to create interest.

What makes sports interesting is relative competition, not absolute performance. Why have weight classes in lifting? Why have women's categories? Why have junior races?

Some of your points are true. Men are faster and women are watched less. And contrary to what you claim, nearly everyone accepts these as facts. But they aren't equivalent to the minors because they are the pinnacle within their defined category (women).

Also, throwing in some cat 3 males would not do anyone any good. It would only distort the race and create fodder for the "this is boring because they're slower than men" crowd.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
echappist wrote:


The rest of your post, the less said about it the better


truth hurts right?

the only way to really get people (I mean men, because it is very clear women don't care about womens professional sports in any meaningful way or there would be about 100X greater ticket sales and TV revenue) interested in womens sports is to make them more interesting. "Professional" women riding bikes as fast as many of the guys in an amateur local/regional road race is not interesting (ever see how many people pay attention to the guys in these races, nobody, actually even less people than pay attention to most womens professional sports).

But I can see that causes lots of contortions for those sticking to the story that "they are just as good and capable as the men" (which we scientifically know is not correct), because the only way to make them interesting would inherently involve accepting the inequality and then using that as an advantage or leverage to create interest. People are smarter than you think, when you want to systematically create false narratives around something, they will often just ignore you.

Which, is also the answer to this original thread (why is no one talking about........)

I'm not a huge proponent of women's cycling any more than any other cycling. If it's entertaining I'll watch it. I think you're off base about the speed thing though. Most of the time you really can't even tell how fast the riders are going in much of an absolute sense, it's all relative.

If speed mattered then watching a men's TT would be inherently more entertaining than watching a women's TT and they are not. They are both just as boring outside of the larger context of competition.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...


Because she's in minor league cycling; against better competition and or in a full (e.g. mens) distance race that simply would not be possible. The win at worlds was almost comical, there is a lead pack that looks like they are kind of soft pedaling and sizing each other up for the sprint, and don't seem to notice she's coming at full speed (no radios to warn them) and then nobody really reacts and they just watch her roll by until they react when its too late. One the hand, good flyer by her, on the other hand just incredibly poor tactics and awareness by the main bunch.

And this "broken elbow" is obviously an exaggeration, it has got to be some kind of very minor hairline fracture or she simply would not be riding a bike.

The way to get people (or at least me) interested in womens cycling is have at least one amateur masters mens team or a team of Cat 3s in the races and see if the women can actually beat them. It would raise the bar on both sides and would be very sporting. Imagine a race series for amateur men to qualify to be the "guest team" in Women's world tour events.

You do realize that kilo maneuvers do work in “full distance” men’s racing, right?

Dan Martin did it at Lombardia in 2014. Freire did it at Worlds in 99

The rest of your post, the less said about it the better

Yeah, in a fractured field with no one team strong enough to sacrifice anyone on a lead-out, it's a perfect scenario for that kind of a tactic. Looks like Italy was the only squad with more than one rider in that front group.

and yes, the less said about the rest, the better.

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say no to clickbait [ In reply to ]
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What Tri's has she won, not seeing her in the results
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
echappist wrote:


The rest of your post, the less said about it the better


truth hurts right?

the only way to really get people (I mean men, because it is very clear women don't care about womens professional sports in any meaningful way or there would be about 100X greater ticket sales and TV revenue) interested in womens sports is to make them more interesting. "Professional" women riding bikes as fast as many of the guys in an amateur local/regional road race is not interesting (ever see how many people pay attention to the guys in these races, nobody, actually even less people than pay attention to most womens professional sports).

But I can see that causes lots of contortions for those sticking to the story that "they are just as good and capable as the men" (which we scientifically know is not correct), because the only way to make them interesting would inherently involve accepting the inequality and then using that as an advantage or leverage to create interest. People are smarter than you think, when you want to systematically create false narratives around something, they will often just ignore you.

Which, is also the answer to this original thread (why is no one talking about........)

Hey Matt, I think your post came across quite condescending towards everyone involved in women's cycling. I think you could have left it that the depth of field is not quite the same as in men's racing and therefore different tactics can be successful, which I believe everyone gets.

The reason why the depth of field is not the same as in men's racing is overall women's access to sport. We all have countless women friends, who simply can't go for a run at night, or a solo ride on country roads so they have this additional barrier in front of them getting into sport. Furthermore, young women are not glorified for their athletic prowess like young men, so boys in youth sport stay engaged, and a lot of very promising women athletes just drop out and focus on things like academics or social pursuits.

So what you see on the road in terms of depth of field is simply an outcome of overall global society putting barriers in front of women doing sport.

Is women's cycling exciting? To me that is like asking if women's FINA world's swimming is more exciting than men's or an IAAF diamond track meet women's events more exciting than mens. I can personally watch all three individual sports and get equally excited about women's racing as mens (especially in the pool and track).

I think you go back and read your post and just suck it up and apologize that the delivery of your message was just poor. Talking about throwing in low cat men into women's race is just a demeaning slant to your position. It was totally unneccessary. You can do way better than that.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
echappist wrote:


The rest of your post, the less said about it the better


truth hurts right?



Who says i’m hurt by anything? I’m not here to evangelize about women’s cycling, and i don’t take personal offense that you purportedly couldn’t give a rat’s ass. At most, I make the statement that it can make for compelling entertainment, which happens to be a view opposed to your own view; but I never cherry-pick and spew idiotic stuff like "Vos bested Alaphilippe" at a particular stage finish in 2019, or "AvV beats all but two male riders on Izoard".

The “less said about it" part was a response to the fact for all your protestation in your original post claiming you aren’t interested, you somehow cared enough to spend time to 1) watch the finale and 2) write a paragraph about it. Why you’d feel compelled to "hate-watch" and write a detailed analysis for something for which you profess no interest, only you know.

Besides, one could very well make the argument that an interest based out of disdain is still very much interest, especially when one actively went out of one's way to actually spectate and write about it. Whatever your reaction to women's cycling may be, apathy it isn't.

Quote:


But I can see that causes lots of contortions for those sticking to the story that "they are just as good and capable as the men" (which we scientifically know is not correct), because the only way to make them interesting would inherently involve accepting the inequality and then using that as an advantage or leverage to create interest. People are smarter than you think, when you want to systematically create false narratives around something, they will often just ignore you.


For the record, I have never said anything to the effect of "[the women] are just as good and capable as the men". You are free to look up my postings elsewhere that specifically argued against cherry picking of data that seemingly showed "[the women] are just as good and capable as the men". If you intended this as a way of addressing sentiments of some, I don't see how that's germane in a debate with me. If instead you presumed that I would take such a stance, that says more about your own debate skills than anything else.

PS. This is the first time i’ve seen this level of circular reasoning in a while.

Quote:

the only way to really get people (I mean men, because it is very clear women don't care about womens professional sports in any meaningful way or there would be about 100X greater ticket sales and TV revenue) interested in womens sports is to make them more interesting.
Last edited by: echappist: Sep 27, 22 9:58
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Insane year she's had.

Giro, Tour, Vuelta, and Worlds (with a broken elbow). Ridiculous, simply ridiculous...


Because she's in minor league cycling; against better competition and or in a full (e.g. mens) distance race that simply would not be possible. The win at worlds was almost comical, there is a lead pack that looks like they are kind of soft pedaling and sizing each other up for the sprint, and don't seem to notice she's coming at full speed (no radios to warn them) and then nobody really reacts and they just watch her roll by until they react when its too late. One the hand, good flyer by her, on the other hand just incredibly poor tactics and awareness by the main bunch.

And this "broken elbow" is obviously an exaggeration, it has got to be some kind of very minor hairline fracture or she simply would not be riding a bike.

The way to get people (or at least me) interested in womens cycling is have at least one amateur masters mens team or a team of Cat 3s in the races and see if the women can actually beat them. It would raise the bar on both sides and would be very sporting. Imagine a race series for amateur men to qualify to be the "guest team" in Women's world tour events.


If only you'd know.. Did you ever downplay Serena Williams vs Raphael Nadal? For now Annemiek is the best female cyclist there is. There might be another one in 2yrs, but saying it's minor league shows me that you truly are uniterested in cycling. You might learn a thing or two getting interested in cycling. For instance tactics: She did exactly the right thing after busting her ass all day for Marianne Vos that couldn't deliver. The other girls played another tactic and lost. Maybe you would even become a better cyclist in the triathlons yourselves when you would observe them cyclists closely. Riding a bike is getting as fast as you can from A to B, not with most power. Cyclists are pretty good at that.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Annemiek a couple of times. If I believe anyone telling me they fractured an elbow it's Annemiek. She doesn't brag, she is sincere, polite and a pleasure to have conversations with. Remember her world championships in Innsbruck? She's ridden it with a fractured patella. If there is one person with an iron will, that is her. Don't be mistaken, she does drop male pro's in training. I know pro and semi-pro riders personally that train with her on regular basis, having a hard time keeping up with her.

Annemiek has my deepest respect, and I totally agree that she at the very least deserves her own topic.

Jacob

- Owner of VĂ©lofysics; helping athletes beat their version of yesterday -
Last edited by: Velofysics: Sep 27, 22 10:08
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
truth hurts right?

the only way to really get people (I mean men, because it is very clear women don't care about womens professional sports in any meaningful way or there would be about 100X greater ticket sales and TV revenue) interested in womens sports is to make them more interesting. "Professional" women riding bikes as fast as many of the guys in an amateur local/regional road race is not interesting (ever see how many people pay attention to the guys in these races, nobody, actually even less people than pay attention to most womens professional sports).

But I can see that causes lots of contortions for those sticking to the story that "they are just as good and capable as the men" (which we scientifically know is not correct), because the only way to make them interesting would inherently involve accepting the inequality and then using that as an advantage or leverage to create interest. People are smarter than you think, when you want to systematically create false narratives around something, they will often just ignore you.

Which, is also the answer to this original thread (why is no one talking about........)

Going there? Should we ship you a maga hat? You must be fun at parties.

I hear this pathetic argument about men's futbol also. "My kid's junior college team could be the USWNT". How about "nobody fucking asked you". The USMNT just got blanked by Japan and still sucks so we're left cheering for the only ones who win...........the women's national team. Or are left to cheer for another country.

Then cycling..........right, the men's team didn't field an endurance track team for the last Olympics? Phil Gaimon even was almost a team member. Up against the likes of Ganna and crew. Nice.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Imagine a race series for amateur men to qualify to be the "guest team" in Women's world tour events.

Would you imagine this to not be a series where a Men's Team wins to get into the Women's Tour, or that a Men's Team gets relegated into the Women's Tour?

Nevermind - I see you said Amateur Men move up to Women's Pro

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [Velofysics] [ In reply to ]
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Good post.

This is one of the sillier threads I’ve seen in a while.

Women’s sports are often as exciting, if not more, at times, than Men’s. I offer top tier Women’s soccer, ice hockey, volleyball, track and field, figure skating, etc. And cycling!

AvV is a gifted human with one hell of an engine. Was in a race against the top tier finishers. Three days after she crashed hard. And was able to hang on for dear life as a chase drug her back, and then she just sent it while they were recovering from effort and, or plotting their launch. Capitalizing on the fact that no one was going to jump quickly and commit.

And as mentioned by someone in the cycling thread where it was receiving immediate attention, it was one of the most exciting races seen in a while. In that thread, women are given equal standing and are discussed quite frequently.
Last edited by: WannaB: Sep 28, 22 18:51
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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for my part, i'm deeply impressed at the efficiency with which this thread has approached peak slowtwitch. normally it would take several pages for a discussion to hit all the highlights we've hit here. well done all around!

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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
for my part, i'm deeply impressed at the efficiency with which this thread has approached peak slowtwitch. normally it would take several pages for a discussion to hit all the highlights we've hit here. well done all around!

Peak ST indeed. Happy to help.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
for my part, i'm deeply impressed at the efficiency with which this thread has approached peak slowtwitch. normally it would take several pages for a discussion to hit all the highlights we've hit here. well done all around!

I thought the one about the triathlete getting hit by a car was impressive too in that regard.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:


When Stephen Roche did it in 1987 (albeit on the Carrera team working with Dr. Conconi LOL), the Giro and Vuelta overlapped, so it was not possible to do anyway. The last time anyone was close was Froome holding all three Grand Tour titles simultaneouly (TdF, then Vuelta, then Giro, then finished third to Thomas in TdF 2018. But inside a 365 day window he held all three, but Sagan won the UCI Worlds and Froome was third at ITT behind Dumoulin and Roglic
[/quote]

There was no overlap in 1987. The Vuelta finished on May 15th and the Giro kicked off on May 21st. I don’t recall them ever overlapping in modern times.

Marino Lejarreta rode all three grand tours a few times in the mid and late 1980s, and that wouldn’t have been possible with any overlapping.
Last edited by: Bdaghisallo: Sep 27, 22 15:49
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [Bdaghisallo] [ In reply to ]
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Bdaghisallo wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


When Stephen Roche did it in 1987 (albeit on the Carrera team working with Dr. Conconi LOL), the Giro and Vuelta overlapped, so it was not possible to do anyway. The last time anyone was close was Froome holding all three Grand Tour titles simultaneouly (TdF, then Vuelta, then Giro, then finished third to Thomas in TdF 2018. But inside a 365 day window he held all three, but Sagan won the UCI Worlds and Froome was third at ITT behind Dumoulin and Roglic


There was no overlap in 1987. The Vuelta finished on May 15th and the Giro kicked off on May 21st. I don’t recall them ever overlapping in modern times.

Marino Lejarreta rode all three grand tours a few times in the mid and late 1980s, and that wouldn’t have been possible with any overlapping.[/quote]
OK OK OK....for most people two grand yours starting a week apart are effectively on top of each other. I did forget about Lejarereta.

In any case back in 1987 it would have been impossible to win all three grand tours. The best we had recently was Froome winning TDF 2017, Vuelta 2017, Giro 2018 and 12 months and three weeks later finishing his fourth Grand tour and taking third at the TDF. That was quite the run of superlative Grand Tour performances
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Bdaghisallo wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


When Stephen Roche did it in 1987 (albeit on the Carrera team working with Dr. Conconi LOL), the Giro and Vuelta overlapped, so it was not possible to do anyway. The last time anyone was close was Froome holding all three Grand Tour titles simultaneouly (TdF, then Vuelta, then Giro, then finished third to Thomas in TdF 2018. But inside a 365 day window he held all three, but Sagan won the UCI Worlds and Froome was third at ITT behind Dumoulin and Roglic


There was no overlap in 1987. The Vuelta finished on May 15th and the Giro kicked off on May 21st. I don’t recall them ever overlapping in modern times.

Marino Lejarreta rode all three grand tours a few times in the mid and late 1980s, and that wouldn’t have been possible with any overlapping.


OK OK OK....for most people two grand yours starting a week apart are effectively on top of each other. I did forget about Lejarereta.

In any case back in 1987 it would have been impossible to win all three grand tours. The best we had recently was Froome winning TDF 2017, Vuelta 2017, Giro 2018 and 12 months and three weeks later finishing his fourth Grand tour and taking third at the TDF. That was quite the run of superlative Grand Tour performances[/quote]
You're right - Roche's '87 season was phenomenal. I think it would be impossible to win all three in any season.

Back in the old days, though, there were riders who went straight from the Vuelta to the Giro. Merckx did it in 1973 and won both. The big Spanish riders who rode for the Kas team, like Jose Manual Fuente (1st in 72 Vuelta and 2nd in 72 Giro), also did that quite a few times.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [Bdaghisallo] [ In reply to ]
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Bdaghisallo wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Bdaghisallo wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


When Stephen Roche did it in 1987 (albeit on the Carrera team working with Dr. Conconi LOL), the Giro and Vuelta overlapped, so it was not possible to do anyway. The last time anyone was close was Froome holding all three Grand Tour titles simultaneouly (TdF, then Vuelta, then Giro, then finished third to Thomas in TdF 2018. But inside a 365 day window he held all three, but Sagan won the UCI Worlds and Froome was third at ITT behind Dumoulin and Roglic


There was no overlap in 1987. The Vuelta finished on May 15th and the Giro kicked off on May 21st. I don’t recall them ever overlapping in modern times.

Marino Lejarreta rode all three grand tours a few times in the mid and late 1980s, and that wouldn’t have been possible with any overlapping.


OK OK OK....for most people two grand yours starting a week apart are effectively on top of each other. I did forget about Lejarereta.

In any case back in 1987 it would have been impossible to win all three grand tours. The best we had recently was Froome winning TDF 2017, Vuelta 2017, Giro 2018 and 12 months and three weeks later finishing his fourth Grand tour and taking third at the TDF. That was quite the run of superlative Grand Tour performances


You're right - Roche's '87 season was phenomenal. I think it would be impossible to win all three in any season.

Back in the old days, though, there were riders who went straight from the Vuelta to the Giro. Merckx did it in 1973 and won both. The big Spanish riders who rode for the Kas team, like Jose Manual Fuente (1st in 72 Vuelta and 2nd in 72 Giro), also did that quite a few times.[/quote]
I don't know if the point is to compare her accomplishments to those of male riders or not, so that being said...

Aren't these female races relatively short, both in terms of stage length and overall duration? They're not 3 week stage races are they?
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [moneydog59] [ In reply to ]
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moneydog59 wrote:
This escalated quick......

quickly

:)
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
Bdaghisallo wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Bdaghisallo wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:


When Stephen Roche did it in 1987 (albeit on the Carrera team working with Dr. Conconi LOL), the Giro and Vuelta overlapped, so it was not possible to do anyway. The last time anyone was close was Froome holding all three Grand Tour titles simultaneouly (TdF, then Vuelta, then Giro, then finished third to Thomas in TdF 2018. But inside a 365 day window he held all three, but Sagan won the UCI Worlds and Froome was third at ITT behind Dumoulin and Roglic


There was no overlap in 1987. The Vuelta finished on May 15th and the Giro kicked off on May 21st. I don’t recall them ever overlapping in modern times.

Marino Lejarreta rode all three grand tours a few times in the mid and late 1980s, and that wouldn’t have been possible with any overlapping.


OK OK OK....for most people two grand yours starting a week apart are effectively on top of each other. I did forget about Lejarereta.

In any case back in 1987 it would have been impossible to win all three grand tours. The best we had recently was Froome winning TDF 2017, Vuelta 2017, Giro 2018 and 12 months and three weeks later finishing his fourth Grand tour and taking third at the TDF. That was quite the run of superlative Grand Tour performances


You're right - Roche's '87 season was phenomenal. I think it would be impossible to win all three in any season.

Back in the old days, though, there were riders who went straight from the Vuelta to the Giro. Merckx did it in 1973 and won both. The big Spanish riders who rode for the Kas team, like Jose Manual Fuente (1st in 72 Vuelta and 2nd in 72 Giro), also did that quite a few times.


I don't know if the point is to compare her accomplishments to those of male riders or not, so that being said...

Aren't these female races relatively short, both in terms of stage length and overall duration? They're not 3 week stage races are they?[/quote]
That's why I pointed out the Froome example. From July 2017 to July 2018 he did 4 grand tours totalling around 16000km of racing where he got 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd and between the first two grand tours and the second set he sandwiched in a 3rd at the UCI Worlds ITT (losing to Dumoulin and Roglic). The women's grand tours are not three week events, so from a pure apples to apples comparison it is easier to do. But at the end of the day, they are the top races available to women and all the top women are gunning for the prize and lots of things can happen along the way (ex Froome being car doored last weekend in Monaco).

Let's just accept amazing athletic feats for what they are. When Bolt sweeps a Diamond League season we don't worry that it was "only 100m"
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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ThisIsIt wrote:
Aren't these women's races relatively short, both in terms of stage length and overall duration? They're not 3 week stage races are they?

Because of UCIs outdated sexist idea that women can't race as far or over as many days as the men, you are correct

Same reason women's CX races are ~2/3 time that men's are [40-50 minutes vs 60-70]

Dipshits

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
ThisIsIt wrote:
Aren't these women's races relatively short, both in terms of stage length and overall duration? They're not 3 week stage races are they?


Because of UCIs outdated sexist idea that women can't race as far or over as many days as the men, you are correct

Same reason women's CX races are ~2/3 time that men's are [40-50 minutes vs 60-70]

Dipshits

I'd be surprised if it's purely the UCI at issue here, I don't think women's road cycling is exactly swimming in sponsorship money. Seems like many (most?) of these races only exist via being subsidized from the male side of the sport. I'd guess putting on a 3 week race is a much more daunting financial task than a week long one.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annamiek Van Vleuten? [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
We can go two ways here: either you make a bona fide admission to engaging in bad-faithed debating tactics, or I can get someone else involved. We all know how much @slowman is a believer the process and in doing things the right way.

I have a question.

...are you serious?

I genuinely can't tell.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I had the privilege of covering the worlds and van Vleuten's win. That finish was one of the most impressive things I've seen - right up there with Hoy's "opening the door that wasn't there" to win the 2012 keirin world title.

Amid a lot of comments on this thread, this one from tri yoda caught my eye and I'm surprised no-one has really jumped on it ...

And this "broken elbow" is obviously an exaggeration, it has got to be some kind of very minor hairline fracture or she simply would not be riding a bike.

So, a couple of thoughts ...

1. I'm pretty sure the Dutch and vV have said all the way along that it was a fracture, not a break. I stand to be corrected here, but that's definitely my recollection (bloody media ...).
2. Now full disclosure - I'm no doctor or physio. But I reckon if we took the entire Slowtwitch population, or the pro cycling peloton for that matter (men and women), and gave them a fracture of the elbow - "very minor" or whatever - most probably wouldn't be doing an event three days later. Let alone getting up the Mt Pleasant climb six times, let alone being in a position to catch everyone else in the front bunch napping at the finish, let alone winning the world title.

Annemiek is as hard as a cat's head.

Also - absolutely - the others in that bunch butchered their finish. How in the name of all that is Holy wasn't someone keeping an eye on the one rider among them who everyone knows might do exactly what she did. vV had sat at the back for ages and it was either one of two things - she was cooked, or she had one move up her (bandaged/swollen) sleeve. Too right that Kopecky bashed her handlebar at the finish - she should have up-slapped herself and all. As much as it was an epic win for the Dutchies, it was an epic fail for everyone else.

As for Remco, the lad also might be a half-decent bike rider one day, too ...

"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [teaandstuff] [ In reply to ]
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teaandstuff wrote:
2. Now full disclosure - I'm no doctor or physio. But I reckon if we took the entire Slowtwitch population, or the pro cycling peloton for that matter (men and women), and gave them a fracture of the elbow - "very minor" or whatever - most probably wouldn't be doing an event three days later. Let alone getting up the Mt Pleasant climb six times, let alone being in a position to catch everyone else in the front bunch napping at the finish, let alone winning the world title.

Annemiek is as hard as a cat's head.

Did anyone ask her how much it was hurting during the race?

I know the commentators were making a big deal of her not getting out of the saddle, but then she was at times. She didn't look to be wincing or noticeably holding onto the bike oddly, not that I was really looking for it.

I guess hard as nails comes down to how much pain she was in, which may have been substantial or not at all.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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Her comment immediately post-race was that it was "hell".

It was an elbow fracture. Enough said.

ThisIsIt wrote:
teaandstuff wrote:

2. Now full disclosure - I'm no doctor or physio. But I reckon if we took the entire Slowtwitch population, or the pro cycling peloton for that matter (men and women), and gave them a fracture of the elbow - "very minor" or whatever - most probably wouldn't be doing an event three days later. Let alone getting up the Mt Pleasant climb six times, let alone being in a position to catch everyone else in the front bunch napping at the finish, let alone winning the world title.

Annemiek is as hard as a cat's head.


Did anyone ask her how much it was hurting during the race?

I know the commentators were making a big deal of her not getting out of the saddle, but then she was at times. She didn't look to be wincing or noticeably holding onto the bike oddly, not that I was really looking for it.

I guess hard as nails comes down to how much pain she was in, which may have been substantial or not at all.

"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [teaandstuff] [ In reply to ]
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teaandstuff wrote:
Her comment immediately post-race was that it was "hell".

It was an elbow fracture. Enough said.

ThisIsIt wrote:
teaandstuff wrote:

2. Now full disclosure - I'm no doctor or physio. But I reckon if we took the entire Slowtwitch population, or the pro cycling peloton for that matter (men and women), and gave them a fracture of the elbow - "very minor" or whatever - most probably wouldn't be doing an event three days later. Let alone getting up the Mt Pleasant climb six times, let alone being in a position to catch everyone else in the front bunch napping at the finish, let alone winning the world title.

Annemiek is as hard as a cat's head.


Did anyone ask her how much it was hurting during the race?

I know the commentators were making a big deal of her not getting out of the saddle, but then she was at times. She didn't look to be wincing or noticeably holding onto the bike oddly, not that I was really looking for it.

I guess hard as nails comes down to how much pain she was in, which may have been substantial or not at all.

It's not really enough said. Fractures can hurt a lot or not very much at all, not to mention people have different sensitivity to pain. The same injury might be unbearable to one person and not that big of a deal to someone else, it's highly subjective.

If she says it was hell, then sure, call her hard as nails.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [teaandstuff] [ In reply to ]
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teaandstuff wrote:
I had the privilege of covering the worlds and van Vleuten's win. That finish was one of the most impressive things I've seen - right up there with Hoy's "opening the door that wasn't there" to win the 2012 keirin world title.
For those whose interest is piqued: here's the 2012 video of Hoy's squeeze:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_keqBnfKY7I
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [ThisIsIt] [ In reply to ]
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The likes of Spratt and Vos et al were also amazed she started with her injury, let alone raced so well.

Enough said.

"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [teaandstuff] [ In reply to ]
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I'm thinking a broken elbow - even a hairline fracture - is like a broken rib; it doesn't hurt often (just annoying, mostly), but when it hurts ... it hurts like a motherfucker!!!

Trust me on the rib-thing

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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Annemiek Van Vleuten who? No demand to watch Men's P12 on TV and same with women who are just as fast. Next topic, WNBA .... naptime.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
I'm thinking a broken elbow - even a hairline fracture - is like a broken rib; it doesn't hurt often (just annoying, mostly), but when it hurts ... it hurts like a motherfucker!!!

Trust me on the rib-thing

I will politely disagree.
As someone who works in pain management for a living, and has been through more than my fair share of fractures, most fractures hurt like buggery and the vibration etc through a bike can make it really hard. I don’t think we know much yet about what her actual fracture is, but the swelling etc around the periosteum can be incredibly painful.
Ribs are an interesting one, they are stabilized pretty well by a number of muscle groups and you can splint and avoid aggravating them too much.
That she could race at all obviously points to something at the more mild end of the spectrum, but it’s still bad ass nonetheless.
(Coming from someone who put a pull buoy in and did the traditional Xmas 100x100s on 100 sec on an acute fractured tibia)
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Amnesia, you sound about as soft as Annemiek, doing the 100x100s with a fractured tibia ... (why isn't there a facetious font ...)
Amnesia wrote:
RandMart wrote:
I'm thinking a broken elbow - even a hairline fracture - is like a broken rib; it doesn't hurt often (just annoying, mostly), but when it hurts ... it hurts like a motherfucker!!!

Trust me on the rib-thing


I will politely disagree.
As someone who works in pain management for a living, and has been through more than my fair share of fractures, most fractures hurt like buggery and the vibration etc through a bike can make it really hard. I don’t think we know much yet about what her actual fracture is, but the swelling etc around the periosteum can be incredibly painful.
Ribs are an interesting one, they are stabilized pretty well by a number of muscle groups and you can splint and avoid aggravating them too much.
That she could race at all obviously points to something at the more mild end of the spectrum, but it’s still bad ass nonetheless.
(Coming from someone who put a pull buoy in and did the traditional Xmas 100x100s on 100 sec on an acute fractured tibia)

"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [p3] [ In reply to ]
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p3 wrote:
Annemiek Van Vleuten who? No demand to watch Men's P12 on TV and same with women who are just as fast. Next topic, WNBA .... naptime.


P12? Are you referring to USA Cycling (mostly) amateur racing categories? Annemiek is several levels above that. World Tour viewership seems to be doing pretty well, particularly the women. Apparently 45% of Dutch watching TV were tuned into the Tour de France Femmes.

Though it's amusing seeing someone on a triathlon site using "how popular they are on TV" as a measuring stick for value as an athlete.

If interested, there's a CX World Cup coming to Arkansas again. Going to be some ballers, men and women.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 30, 22 4:35
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [teaandstuff] [ In reply to ]
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teaandstuff wrote:
Amnesia, you sound about as soft as Annemiek, doing the 100x100s with a fractured tibia ... (why isn't there a facetious font ...)
Amnesia wrote:
RandMart wrote:
I'm thinking a broken elbow - even a hairline fracture - is like a broken rib; it doesn't hurt often (just annoying, mostly), but when it hurts ... it hurts like a motherfucker!!!

Trust me on the rib-thing


I will politely disagree.
As someone who works in pain management for a living, and has been through more than my fair share of fractures, most fractures hurt like buggery and the vibration etc through a bike can make it really hard. I don’t think we know much yet about what her actual fracture is, but the swelling etc around the periosteum can be incredibly painful.
Ribs are an interesting one, they are stabilized pretty well by a number of muscle groups and you can splint and avoid aggravating them too much.
That she could race at all obviously points to something at the more mild end of the spectrum, but it’s still bad ass nonetheless.
(Coming from someone who put a pull buoy in and did the traditional Xmas 100x100s on 100 sec on an acute fractured tibia)

Yes this was not my finest moment!! It was a bit bloody silly. I was on 4 weeks of strict bedrest soon after that to allow some healing to take place and avoid a tibial nail.
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
p3 wrote:
Annemiek Van Vleuten who? No demand to watch Men's P12 on TV and same with women who are just as fast. Next topic, WNBA .... naptime.


P12? Are you referring to USA Cycling (mostly) amateur racing categories? Annemiek is several levels above that. World Tour viewership seems to be doing pretty well, particularly the women. Apparently 45% of Dutch watching TV were tuned into the Tour de France Femmes.

Though it's amusing seeing someone on a triathlon site using "how popular they are on TV" as a measuring stick for value as an athlete.

If interested, there's a CX World Cup coming to Arkansas again. Going to be some ballers, men and women.

Dutch? And just because 70% of people in India watch cricket, doesn't make it "popular" in America. But keep hyping up Annemiek and maybe you'll push up her clout from .5% to 1%. Any news in the WNBA that we can discuss?
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Re: why is no one talking about Annemiek Van Vleuten? [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Oh dear. Well, it didn't kill you, so it clearly made you stronger. Or more deranged. Or something.

And I don't know any ins or outs, but by it's very name I would say a tibial nail is something to be avoided, yes.

Amnesia wrote:
teaandstuff wrote:
Amnesia, you sound about as soft as Annemiek, doing the 100x100s with a fractured tibia ... (why isn't there a facetious font ...)
Amnesia wrote:
RandMart wrote:
I'm thinking a broken elbow - even a hairline fracture - is like a broken rib; it doesn't hurt often (just annoying, mostly), but when it hurts ... it hurts like a motherfucker!!!

Trust me on the rib-thing


I will politely disagree.
As someone who works in pain management for a living, and has been through more than my fair share of fractures, most fractures hurt like buggery and the vibration etc through a bike can make it really hard. I don’t think we know much yet about what her actual fracture is, but the swelling etc around the periosteum can be incredibly painful.
Ribs are an interesting one, they are stabilized pretty well by a number of muscle groups and you can splint and avoid aggravating them too much.
That she could race at all obviously points to something at the more mild end of the spectrum, but it’s still bad ass nonetheless.
(Coming from someone who put a pull buoy in and did the traditional Xmas 100x100s on 100 sec on an acute fractured tibia)


Yes this was not my finest moment!! It was a bit bloody silly. I was on 4 weeks of strict bedrest soon after that to allow some healing to take place and avoid a tibial nail.

"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009
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