If a retailer cracks down on shoplifting, are they raising prices? I guess that's sort of technically true.

Gawd, how stupid. Enforcing tax law on cheats is not a tax increase, but the simple minded MAGA crowd will still spew it.

Tyler, Ted Cruz, and Marjorie Taylor Greene were also pushing the 87,000 new agents lie even though it has been proven false.

https://apnews.com/...3a04584371843234cab7

The inverse is actually true since lower COGS.

However depending on the jurisdiction shoplifting isn't prosecuted

?? Shoplifting lowers revenue not COGS.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Don’t confuse the fellow.

It's not unlike republicans claiming democrats are cutting medicare because negotiating drug prices will reduce costs. It's been know for years that increasing the IRS budget will be a net $ win but the IRS is one more agency republicans want to eliminate.

Isn't losses part of COGS? Shoplifting is no different than breakage?

When I said, "prices", I was referring to what the consumer is paying for the product. If they buy it instead of steal it, the price they pay has been raised.

It's a stupid argument, but technically true.

Try that before a judge:)

Unfortunately, upon further review, I think you're half-right. At the risk of embarrassing myself twice I think it actually does go to COGS but the impact depends on whether you choose to take it off beginning or ending inventory - the former = lower COGS, the latter = higher COGS.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I see that as a win for everybody

So the powerful can reap that much more. You think those folks storming the Capitol were in the high income tax brackets?

The vast majority of the people storming the capital were people with wheels on their house.

Shoplifting is alternative buying.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Yeah doubling the number of agents after having to walk back this " The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) removed the requirement that special-agent applicants carry firearms and "be willing to use deadly force" from a job listing." The history of political targeting. The cost and disruption to a business and the fear of targeting that can destroy a business or organization that are working on the margins month to month. Nothing to be to be considered about.

I'm confused by your post. Removing the requirement for the tax man to be prepared to kill someone is a bad thing and is also somehow related to the targeted destruction of struggling businesses? Said destruction in an unspecified manner, since businesses that are operating within the law, even if audited, don't really have anything to worry about. Unless you're suggesting that they're gonna start shutting down law abiding businesses?

Help me out here.

ETA I purposefully glossed over the first part but in the interest of not perpetuating myths I'll just leave this here.
https://time.com/...nts-factcheck-biden/

Unfortunately tax recording is pain in arse. Hope they carve out some money for ombudsman types to prevent political or overly punitive examination of low to moderate income taxpayers, corporate or individual. Go after big money tax cheats. Wisselberg, trumps accountant, should be in jail for instance. He knew he was getting compensation not taxed.

This is a lie

It is. But what if it wasn't? Are we supposed to allow people to cheat on their taxes while honest people pony up? I'm having a real hard time understanding this one.

And this is example #4957 of showing people how the whole basis for their outrage and beliefs is a lie and yet they continue with the outrage and believing the same things. Drives me nuts. (maybe I should put this in the how angry do you get thread)

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

They literally want to defund law enforcement. I'm sure this is somehow different than what they've been bitching about for 2 years.

Low to moderate income Repubs are dumarses to follow Repubs policy, where their bosses and investors passively earn larger rewards. Add carried interest, what a scam. How that female for Arizona justiesv5his is hard to believe. Guess a bunch of retirees will boot her.

Yup.

Of course the folks who spent the last couple of years spewing the lie that the DNC wants to "Defund the police!" are silent today. They will be silent tomorrow. They will never question the cult.

Are you a small business owner? Do you have any understanding of the cost and time of going through an audit if you are not a W2 kinda guy, and the threat of the State and burying you with the power to crush you?

I remember when the GOP used to be the party of "Law and order". Do you also complain about not being able to drive 80 mph in a school zone while hammered because it is an inconvenience?

If you actually read the bill instead of parroting lies from Marjorie Taylor Greene you would see that enforcement is only half of the newly budgeted funds. Most of the funds are going to make it easier for people and small business to file. Easier for them to get answers from the support group. Easier to file on line.

Horse shit!

Another well-reasoned response.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I don't believe this is correct. According to the CBO, about $60B is going to enforcement and related operations, and ~$20B to improving services, etc.

NormM is also wrong, though, in most of his claims.

From article in Washington times Nov 2021:

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that the funding for tax enforcement activities provided by the bill would increase outlays by $80 billion and revenues by $207 billion,” CBO Director Phillip Swagel wrote in a letter to lawmakers.

From Bloomberg tax July 2022:

“The funds, which are outside of the regular annual appropriations process, would be available to the agency until Sept. 30, 2031. The measure would provide $45.6 billion for enforcement, $25.3 billion for operations support, $3.2 billion for taxpayer services, and $4.8 billion for business systems modernization. The money is aimed at strengthening the IRS’s efforts to enforce tax laws against wealthy individuals and businesses. The agency has seen a decline in audit rates over the past decade as a result of budget cuts.”

Little light on taxpayer services IMHO. Norm was wrong as are Fox folks calling it tax increase.

Cost benefit says over 10 years $207 billion in revenue vs $80billion in cost see above. (Guessing $187 billion from folks over 400 k, 20 from < 400k in annual earnings.

I'm shocked the mentally unstable are wrong

Sorry, most was a bit off. More than half of their proposed spending increase would go to enforcement. The next biggest chunk, $25.3 billion, would go to operations support, such as rent, security and postage. Another $4.75 billion would go to improve call-back services and other technology designed to improve customer service. And $3.2 billion would go to pre-filing and educational assistance.

The reality is that billions will be spent on making filing easier, supporting filers, and streamlining enforcement. Norm's claim of 87,000 new agents is complete horseshit.

I don't think Norm is mentally unstable but he, Tyler, Ted Cruz, and Marjorie Taylor Greene are clearly wrong with their false claim of 87,000 new agents.

https://apnews.com/...3a04584371843234cab7

I was off a bit with the percentage going to enforcement but at least I did not promote an obvious lie.

see these are all lies. You can tell they are lies by the people in this thread pushing "the truth". Because of course they know the truth 24 hours after the bill is passed. Because the Dems passed it. Completely on their own. Which is why you know it's a good bill. Because all bills that only have Dem support and need a tie breaking VP are good bills.

It starts with a premise. Everybody making more than 400k is not paying their fair share and is a tax cheat. And all the CPA's and lawyers who prepare their returns are complicit in their cheating. Because, you know, they aren't govt employees like say in the DOJ or FBI where employees are above reproach.

The rest is a lie. They actually aren't adding any agents at all. In fact they aren't even allocating additional funds to the IRS. And it certainly won't be front loaded with any benefit occurring years from now.

But the reduction in inflation from the inflation reduction act will start right away and be significant. Because it says inflation reduction right in the act. Anybody who says otherwise is a lying deplorable with a wagon wheel in their yard.

why do you lie you lying liar. liar.

deplorable liar

Nutella, when provided with factual information, apologized and corrected his position. I doubt he was intentionally lying. NormM may not have been either. It's easy to take Ted Cruz misinformation about the # of enforcement agents and just propagate, or a similar statement from MSNBC, etc. The important bit for forum credibility is acknowledging mistakes, and moving on. Nutella can be a bit caustic at times, but he does that. I've yet to see NormM (or you) do that. (talking just about this thread!). When confronted with facts, it's just a deflection or an insult.

I passionately disagree and will die on that hill

yeah he's great for the forum. You should support him more

I personally would not pick Nutella as my life's cause.

But your passion is your passion.

I'm also the one who called him out with a coherent counter-point based on fact instead of emotion.

It's not a huge deal to be wrong. I'm frequently wrong on this forum. I don't know why some just cling to something and never give in.

See below.

I missed the whole Chicago thing, I think. I can usually smell a dumpster fire thread from 2 clicks, and tend to avoid them.

Currently I have a 6-hour cooling off period for any thread where EricMPro is listed as the last poster. Which, right now, is about 75% of threads.

WRONG. Older posts are *above*.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but many here have that same issue with your posts.

Back on topic, does it bother you that the leaders of your party have lied extensively about the increased funding of the IRS?

I hold few grudges (see me passionately imploring Dan to not ban everyone who called me an insufferable [redacted]). The grudges I do hold are mattress grudges.

Been cocktailing wanker

Ah, ok. That explains a lot.

Drunk lies are still lies. Careful, Tyler will say bad things about you.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

to be fair, it's the Republican donors who want to eliminate or weaken the IRS. The Republican party members are just the willing ballwashers to do it for them.

I think we need to rebrand the IRS as "the tax evasion police" and then put the Republicans on the spot about why they are trying to "defund the police"

I've said no lies. That's the point

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Back on topic

Interesting look at the years of budget cuts at the IRS that have led to short staffing, inability to modernize, and lack of supplies.

https://www.nbcnews.com/...uction-act-rcna42554

The IRS has shed about 13% of its staff since 2012. Meanwhile we have 14% more taxpayers filing returns over the same period. The IRS’s budget has dropped around 15% when adjusted for inflation. Staffing in enforcement has fallen even more sharply, by 30% since 2010, even while the tax code — and businesses’ and individuals’ maneuvers to circumvent it — have become more complex. Many of the new hires are to replace the 52,000 employees who are expected to leave or retire in coming years.

Of course the Far Right has been spewing lies about the funding, some of which have been repeated here.

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Theft lowers inventory, and goes to an expense account called “inventory shrinkage”.

It becomes an expense (loss) on the income statement in that period. However, it can be incorporated into COGS as apparently the IRS allows that per a quick Google search.

https://yourbusiness.azcentral.com/...d-expense-24803.html

Isn’t it 87,000 new IRS agents? Seems a bit concerning. The same people that want to defund the police want to hire a shit ton of IRS agents. Kinda “Hinky”, don’t you think?

The problem with Fox is that the story isn’t as deep as they make it sound. Not that it isn’t valid.

We should test this theory by watching Fox News from 2 years ago and see if any of their claims had merit now that the future is the past.

I take it you didn’t read the AP News link above?

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

The talking point that wouldn't die. They should make a horror movie.

No, it isn't. No matter how many times you, Tyler, Norm, and Marjorie Taylor Greene repeat the lie it is still a lie.

https://apnews.com/...3a04584371843234cab7

In addition to wanting to defund the IRS so they cannot enforce the law many of the leaders of your party are calling for the DOJ and FBI to be defunded. You are silent. Odd.

A good grief Charlie Brown moment. Are our diets degrading our minds? Maybe for E, does Fox play subliminal messages for its viewers making them stupid? Hard to believe some comments, maybe even mine.

Yes, let's verify previous FoxNews claims - Are you posting from a FEMA camp?

Years ago, Glenn Beck was on Foxnews and went on and on about Obama locking up his opposition in FEMA camps. He even showed a video which he claimed was a train station to a FEMA camp (turns out it was an Amtrak maintenance yard)- there were no FEMA camps. FoxNews has a history of utter bullshit.

Fox, Trump, and the rest of the GOP spew lies because they know their faithful base will repeat those lies without question. A reasonable person would seek out better sources of information after being embarrassed a few times by parroting false claims, but not these folks. They double down and repeat the lies over and over. It is clear they have zero interest in a good faith discussion of the topic.

Here are some more from the echo chamber

“Donald Trump authorized up to 20,000 National Guard troops to protect the Capitol" before Jan. 6, 2021, but was "rejected" by Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer.

If you look pre-COVID" under President Donald Trump, "we didn't import a single barrel of oil from Saudi Arabia.”


"President Barack Hussein Obama kept 33 million pages of documents, much of them classified. How many of them pertained to nuclear? Word is, lots!"


The government is arming up the IRS because “Joe Biden is raising taxes and disarming Americans.”


Fox News Airs Doctored Photo of Trump Raid Judge With Ghislaine Maxwell

The same people that supposedly support the police (well, except the Capitol Police) want to defund the IRS police. Kinda 'hinky', don't you think?

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They'll be back to play the victim for being attacked by the LR echo chamber for having, "conservative views".

Why do you love tax cheats?

Simple. Making people pay what they owe is raising taxes. Only in Fox/MAGA world.

IRS budget cuts have made it nearly impossible to audit ultra wealthy tax payers who use lawyers to simply outlast the IRS. The IRS has literally given up on many audits because they don't have enough resources. In 2009, they tried to set up a more advanced audit team to address the highly complex returns of the ultra-wealthy but budget cuts also cut this program.

https://www.propublica.org/...l-high-wealth-audits

"The IRS’ new approach to taking on the superwealthy has been stymied. The wealthy’s lobbyists immediately pushed to defang the new team. And soon after the group was formed, Republicans in Congress began slashing the agency’s budget. As a result, the team didn’t receive the resources it was promised. Thousands of IRS employees left from every corner of the agency, especially ones with expertise in complex audits, the kinds of specialists the agency hoped would staff the new elite unit. The agency had planned to assign 242 examiners to the group by 2012, according to a report by the IRS’ inspector general. But by 2014, it had only 96 auditors. By last year, the number had fallen to 58."

He doesn't need to. He knows he's right because Brietbart told him so.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

It's worse than just disarming. The IRS is going to send kill squads.

Quote:

"...these agents hunt down and kill middle class taxpayers that don't pay enough? It's Joe Biden's new army."

Kilmeade really pisses me off. He's egging on the guys poised to storm Federal workers or offices, like the gunman who tried to breach the Cincinatti FBI office. And he's laughing the whole time because he's trending on social media. He'll claim it's satire, which it is in a sick way. And then jharris et al, will parrot the watered down version of the lie.

Edit: This one pisses me off because it's somewhat personal. I know an IRS special agent, and he's out there trying to go after foreign cartels laundering money in the U.S., etc. One of the best people I know. To suggest these guys would kill innocent Americans is just disgusting.

The phrase, "don't pay enough" is an interesting choice of words. Rather than "tax cheat," "don't pay enough" sounds like the IRS finds no problems with a return but wants an extra $1000 as a penalty for watching Fox news.

The first one to spot jharris will get free lifetime bike fits from Slowman.

Exactly. People don't seem to understand that how critical this is. I know a former IRS Special Agent and the dude was super serious about his job.

Not to mention I'm pretty sure we have one of the lowest tax burdens of any developed nation, even with the insane money with spend on the military. Nothing like wanting something for nothing.

Republicans escalate IRS rhetoric as senator warns Americans not to apply for new jobs
Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen emphasized in an internal memo that new resources for the IRS will be aimed at wealthy tax avoiders, as GOP rhetoric reaches new extremes.

GOP continues to spew lies about the IRS

https://www.nbcnews.com/...t-apply-ne-rcna43411

In his speech last night Kevin said

"when we come back, our very first bill will repeal the funding for 87,000 new IRS agents."

Of course the "87,000 agents" lie has been debunked repeatedly, but Kevin still pushes it because he knows it is what the simpletons in the right-wing echo chamber want to hear.

https://www.nytimes.com/...ents-fact-check.html

https://www.usatoday.com/...mericans/7872060001/

Republicans really care about the deficit and tax cheats. Unlike Trump's tax cuts, funding the IRS actually does pay for itself.

Poor IRS is going to be getting it from both sides - from the Dems for the circumstantial evidence of being influenced in political ways by the Trump White House, and by the Republicans....because who likes the IRS??

I imagine not a fun place to work for the rank-and-file.

Indeed.

If the Republicans really cared about this issue they would use their control of the House to reform the tax code.....instead they feed their base lies about "IRS Stormtroopers". As we can see by this thread the base eagerly buys the lie.

Of course they don't care.

And few tax cheats are as prolific as the GQP poster boy, trumpski.

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I foresee this going remarkably like repealing the ACA.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

Heard about this study/article on the radio today. Kind of interesting when the talk is about making the rich pay their fair share, the IRS is focused on those who make the least and probably have the most questions for the IRS but can't get any help...
https://trac.syr.edu/tracirs/latest/679/

Yes, I have heard of this data but had not seen it presented in such a manner, thanks for posting.

Your link confirms that the IRS needs more funding so they can provide a better level of service to the average taxpayer and finally have the resources needed to for better collection from high income taxpayers.

From your link.

The Crisis Caused by Inadequate Staffing at the IRS



High-Income Returns Escape Audit Because IRS Not Hiring Enough Revenue Agents

Your link goes into detail about how the average taxpayer is screwed because they do not get the service level needed to file their return. Contrary to the claims of the right wing echo chamber all the additional funding is not going to "IRS Stormtroopers" but also to providing services to the average taxpayer.

The first CBO score of the new Congress is out. The GOP IRS funding bill would reduce spending by $71.5B and reduce revenue by $185.8B.

Net deficit increase of $114B.

Estimated Budgetary Effects of H.R. 23 (cbo.gov)

After months of lies about IRS stormtroopers some good news. Thanks to hiring new agents there is a huge uptick in calls being answered by agents

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...BAEBCFHNAFH57ZEM52Y4

IRS' jackbooted thugs harass innocent small business owners

https://apnews.com/...88311bd03ee76ae36f70

Nah, just kidding. They busted a bunch of rich cheaters

I don’t really have anything to add I thought I’d just break up the pathetic pattern of Nutella continuing to talk to himself over the course of the last several months before he replies a few more times to somebody.


There are clearly not enough other threads in the forum for him to patrol, dredge up and reply to with these hard hitting posts which provide evidence of….something to support his position of…..something.

More importantly there must not be enough transgender threads being developed lately. It’s clearly the end of the business week at the bot farm and Nutella hasn’t generated his qouta of inane posts in this room for the week. He might get called into the sups office if he doesn’t step up his total posts.

Winning isn’t so fun when you’re not the one doing it.

That’s how that post above just read in my mind.

I don’t really know what to say.

There are clearly signs that you have a hard on for Nutella to write three whole paragraphs specifically about him.

More importantly there must not be enough happiness in your life but you keep doing you.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Tylertri,

Please tell Billy Bob, Cletus, and the rest of your 6 toed tribe that all the rest of us say "hi"...

He says that as if it is news.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.