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2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee
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I see a few threads with specific questions, but not an uberthread yet on the 2022 USAT Olympic:/ sprint Nationals?

I love this race and this venue. It’ll be my 4th in Milwaukee, and I’ll keep going as many times as they’ll do it there. The energy and atmosphere are great, the course is fair, the logistics are good.

Who is going? Questions? What are you excited for?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going back for round 4 at that venue (went in 2014, 2015, and 2021). It's a great venue in so many ways - nearby hotels, easy parking near the race HQ, and, in theory, a nice cooling effect from being on the lakefront. Looking forward to a closed bike course that supports hammering out a good bike split and then the nice run in the park, and really looking forward to people I only see at nationals/worlds. Doing the double, as always.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I'll be there! I'm always excited to see the "old guys" blow by me like I'm barely moving.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Live in Madison but my first time racing Nationals. Venue seems perfect! Looking forward to it.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I just pulled the trigger and signed up. My fitness (and weight) is not where it was last year after a cervical disc replacement in January. This will be a celebration race that I can still swim, bike, and run. It's an easy drive from Indy and looking forward to a fun weekend with my wife (and no kids). We are staying and the St. Kate which is such a cool place.

https://www.strava.com/athletes/23685202
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:

Who is going? Questions? What are you excited for?

MKE is one of the best venues/races courses I've seen...and I've raced or watched races on 4 continents and 10-12 countries.

Wish I hadn't tore my calf and ended my racing career. USATAGNC is one of the most competitive races in the US year after year after year after year.

Probably the only race in the last 6-8 years where I showed up and wondered if I'd make the top 10 in my AG. At 70.3's it was always will I be top 3 or top 5. Top 3 at AGNC never crossed my mind.

So competitive, so deep, so fast & so much fun + a wave start so it's head to head racing not rolling

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Aug 2, 22 8:46
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I'll be there doing both the Olympic and sprint races. Coming from Colorado, I'm excited to race near sea level, but not excited for the humidity.

Does anyone have a report on the road conditions? I did these races in 2013/2014, and remember the roads being pretty decent, but a lot can change since then.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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other than a few spots (that are marked), the roads were in good shape last year from what I can recall.

I am going again this year, will take in a Brewers game friday night as well

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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I just heard that the expansion joints are really bad on the "Hoan Bridge" part of the bike course.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
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trimike77 wrote:
I just heard that the expansion joints are really bad on the "Hoan Bridge" part of the bike course.

I remember not enjoying those in '13/ '14, but last year I didn't notice them too much. Not sure if that is because I'm a more experienced rider or if they got better. Maybe also because I'm now running 28mm tires on a carbon bike instead of 23s on aluminum!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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For those of you doing the Oly, curious what your taper looks like this week. For me:

M: recovery ride; 2100y OWS
T: 45 min run with 4x1min threshold; 3000 scy pool
W: 60 min Zwift session with 2x5min O/U blocks and long cool down
R: 30 min run with a few pick-ups; 20 min swim ez
F: travel

Strava
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [trimike77] [ In reply to ]
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trimike77 wrote:
I just heard that the expansion joints are really bad on the "Hoan Bridge" part of the bike course.

You'll notice them/feel them, but they aren't a crash hazard/future source of income for your dentist anymore.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
I see a few threads with specific questions, but not an uberthread yet on the 2022 USAT Olympic:/ sprint Nationals?

I love this race and this venue. It’ll be my 4th in Milwaukee, and I’ll keep going as many times as they’ll do it there. The energy and atmosphere are great, the course is fair, the logistics are good.

Who is going? Questions? What are you excited for?

Is this the 4th time in a row? Any plans to go somewhere else next year? Milwaukee is a bit far for me to want to go for an oly
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Not trying to derail but been looking….Have they announced 2023 venue yet?
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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My first National and we have tickets for Friday's game as well. I can thank them for trading their closer to my Padres!
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [] [ In reply to ]
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just realized I can only sign up for the sprint, oof. everything's booked but that's a long way to go for a sprint race

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [Tribike53] [ In reply to ]
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No, this is 2 in a row. I believe:

22 - Milwaukee
21 - Milwaukee
20 - COVID
19 - Cleveland
18 - Cleveland
17 - Omaha
16 - Omaha
15 - Milwaukee
14 - Milwaukee
13 - Milwaukee
12 - Burlington

Been fortunate living in Michigan to be able to drive to Milwaukee and Cleveland. It can stay in Milwaukee forever as far as I’m concerned!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Not trying to derail but been looking….Have they announced 2023 venue yet?

Interested in this, too.

I thought about going this year but decided to try next year instead.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Not trying to derail but been looking….Have they announced 2023 venue yet?
Heard it will be Milwaukee again next year and then probably somewhere else. Of the ones I've raced, its one of my favorites... Omaha, Cleveland and Milwaukee... this will be my 4th time racing in Milwaukee.

I've taken my expectations off the table with two crashes this year that put a wrinkle in my training... twice. Last year I set a goal to podium in the Oly and Sprint and did... this year we will see.

In for the Oly and Sprint double.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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I was just checking the schedule and M 40-44 is the last AG to go off (9:35AM!)! Anyone know why it's setup this way? That's a killer wait with transition closing at 6:55AM...
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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TXAgeGrouper wrote:
I was just checking the schedule and M 40-44 is the last AG to go off (9:35AM!)! Anyone know why it's setup this way? That's a killer wait with transition closing at 6:55AM...

They take the estimated times that everybody put in when they registered and run them through a program to optimize course density.

I've been in that second to last or last group multiple times. If your hotel is close enough, go to transition when it opens to set up, and then go back to your hotel at 5:30 am and stay there for a couple of hours.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [vkanders] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, I don't think I've ever started a race so late. It's going to be hard not to get caught up in the hype and even though we're going to have to deal with much warmer temps, on the bright side I don't need to scarf down breakfast at 4AM. Not happy about this but nothing we can do unfortunately.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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TXAgeGrouper wrote:
Wow, I don't think I've ever started a race so late. It's going to be hard not to get caught up in the hype and even though we're going to have to deal with much warmer temps, on the bright side I don't need to scarf down breakfast at 4AM. Not happy about this but nothing we can do unfortunately.

Yeah, I'm at 9:11 (F40-44) which is only marginally better, which is not my favorite. However, based on your username, I'm going to guess that you are well acclimated for heat and humidity. Being from DC, when I see the forecasted dewpoint of 70-72F coupled with temps around 80F, I remind myself that everybody else will be miserable, but I've been training in this nonsense all summer so it's just another day. That worked out in my favor in Omaha 2016 when everybody wilted 2 miles into the run and I just plugged along.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I am M35-39 and we went off at 8:53 last year in the oly, and the young guys went off at 7 and shortly after. The humidity, wind, and temps picked up as storms were moving in and made the run miserable. I get that you're competing against your age group and they all start at the same time, but as someone who wants to finish top 10 OA, I hate that two years in a row I'm going to be passing hundreds on the bike and dealing with hotter conditions than those M25-29 and M30-34...I'm 9:05 this year.

Blog: https://davidkoppeltriathlon.blogspot.com/
Coaching: https://dkendurance.com/
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
MI_Mumps wrote:

Who is going? Questions? What are you excited for?

MKE is one of the best venues/races courses I've seen...and I've raced or watched races on 4 continents and 10-12 countries.

Wish I hadn't tore my calf and ended my racing career. USATAGNC is one of the most competitive races in the US year after year after year after year.

Probably the only race in the last 6-8 years where I showed up and wondered if I'd make the top 10 in my AG. At 70.3's it was always will I be top 3 or top 5. Top 3 at AGNC never crossed my mind.

So competitive, so deep, so fast & so much fun + a wave start so it's head to head racing not rolling
That's quite an endorsement of the event and competition.
Sorry about your leg.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
MI_Mumps wrote:


Who is going? Questions? What are you excited for?


MKE is one of the best venues/races courses I've seen...and I've raced or watched races on 4 continents and 10-12 countries.

Wish I hadn't tore my calf and ended my racing career. USATAGNC is one of the most competitive races in the US year after year after year after year.

Probably the only race in the last 6-8 years where I showed up and wondered if I'd make the top 10 in my AG. At 70.3's it was always will I be top 3 or top 5. Top 3 at AGNC never crossed my mind.

So competitive, so deep, so fast & so much fun + a wave start so it's head to head racing not rolling
.

I agree Brian. It's an awesome venue, really reasonable costs and the fields are amazing. Even the old farts (my division) had a pretty large number of entries. It's a good test for anyone and so good a venue I wish they'd do like Kona and make it permanent.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [DKMNTRI] [ In reply to ]
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DKMNTRI wrote:
Yeah, I am M35-39 and we went off at 8:53 last year in the oly, and the young guys went off at 7 and shortly after. The humidity, wind, and temps picked up as storms were moving in and made the run miserable. I get that you're competing against your age group and they all start at the same time, but as someone who wants to finish top 10 OA, I hate that two years in a row I'm going to be passing hundreds on the bike and dealing with hotter conditions than those M25-29 and M30-34...I'm 9:05 this year.

100% agree. & the score ratings follow. Someone racing from 7-9 & another from 9-11 might be right next to each other even though the second athlete raced in tougher conditions. I like racing in your AG but it makes sense to me to have some sort of elite start for people trying to finish up front. A lot of local races do it.

With the forecast, folks should be smart on the run. Probably ~10-15s/mile adjustment needed with high-70s & a 70 dew point. Don't treat it like it's 50-60 & dry. Throw away what you think is a good time & just compete.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn wrote:
DKMNTRI wrote:
Yeah, I am M35-39 and we went off at 8:53 last year in the oly, and the young guys went off at 7 and shortly after. The humidity, wind, and temps picked up as storms were moving in and made the run miserable. I get that you're competing against your age group and they all start at the same time, but as someone who wants to finish top 10 OA, I hate that two years in a row I'm going to be passing hundreds on the bike and dealing with hotter conditions than those M25-29 and M30-34...I'm 9:05 this year.

100% agree. & the score ratings follow. Someone racing from 7-9 & another from 9-11 might be right next to each other even though the second athlete raced in tougher conditions. I like racing in your AG but it makes sense to me to have some sort of elite start for people trying to finish up front. A lot of local races do it.

With the forecast, folks should be smart on the run. Probably ~10-15s/mile adjustment needed with high-70s & a 70 dew point. Don't treat it like it's 50-60 & dry. Throw away what you think is a good time & just compete.
Not too sure how you have an elite wave at a national championship that requires qualification to get into (albeit, not too difficult to get into).
And a mass start would be a major cluster.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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TXAgeGrouper wrote:
I was just checking the schedule and M 40-44 is the last AG to go off (9:35AM!)! Anyone know why it's setup this way? That's a killer wait with transition closing at 6:55AM...

I'm in the wave right before you (F 45-49). This is my 3rd AGN and the 2nd time I have started in one of those super late waves. It pretty much sucks. I wish they would split transition in half, close the first half at 6:55, and then close the second one around 8 for the later folks.

I'm basically going to show up last minute, lay my stuff out (I really debated leaving it all in there on Friday when I rack my bike, but decided against that), and then hang out and eat breakfast while I curse at all the youths that get to go in earlier.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [IronScholar] [ In reply to ]
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I'll see you in the "this sucks, wish I could be going earlier" waiting area I guess. Need to put extra ice in my bottles too I guess now that they'll be slowly baking in the sun for a couple hours.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [TXAgeGrouper] [ In reply to ]
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Depending on where you are staying, last year I stayed at the Westin which is 5 minute walk and we set up transition went back to the hotel for a couple of hours and returned about 30 minutes before wave start.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kornpett] [ In reply to ]
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You are waaay more ambitious than me...

M - 2000yrd OW swim
T - 1 hour trainer ride, 20 min ROTB
W - check bike (10 mins) 20 min OWS
T - travel with 20 min run on landing
F - rest
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]
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Really doesn't seem too difficult to me. Keep qualifying the way it is. Define elite under a certain time threshold (keep it tight) & require proof when you sign up. Doesn't make sense if the National Champion is crowned from an earlier wave if someone finishes super close but started an hour or two later. It happened last year in the sprint. 1 & 2 were separated by a second. Who knows what happens if they start together. Maybe 1 wins by even more. Maybe 2nd, who ran ~2 minutes faster, catches them.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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I wish we had a really AG competitive race like this in Canada. Here, unfortunately, it seems, as if most AGs do not travel to a race unless it has the IM logo.

Thankfully, we have a ton of local races in Southern Ontario, but a formal competitive AG Nationals would be awesome. We had something back in 2016-2017 but attendance wasn't great.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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I know it’s early but weather looking pretty bad for Sunday morning

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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I 100% agree about the run pace. I was about 2 mins slower than usual but after speaking with other folks in my AG it sounded like most people had a similar experience. Yep, the heat and humidity are pretty sapping.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Can’t believe I don’t see more weather freak out posts! I’m trying to keep a positive mindset.

I was very glad for the shady spots while spectating today - hot stuff

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
Can’t believe I don’t see more weather freak out posts! I’m trying to keep a positive mindset.

I was very glad for the shady spots while spectating today - hot stuff

Lots of people burned themselves on the bike and the start of the run. I saw a lot of walking out on course. Volunteers were out in force with ice, though. I think the heat index was 94F when I finished and there is not a leaf of shade on that bike course.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn wrote:
Really doesn't seem too difficult to me. Keep qualifying the way it is. Define elite under a certain time threshold (keep it tight) & require proof when you sign up. Doesn't make sense if the National Champion is crowned from an earlier wave if someone finishes super close but started an hour or two later. It happened last year in the sprint. 1 & 2 were separated by a second. Who knows what happens if they start together. Maybe 1 wins by even more. Maybe 2nd, who ran ~2 minutes faster, catches them.

I agree- it would be cool to see the top athletes compete head to head. Here is a simple idea- have your “AG waves” and add an “overall” wave. Give athletes the discretion to select.

USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [Once-a-miler] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree. USAT if you are listening, let’s add an “overall” or “elite” wave that goes off first for those who want to race for the top 5 overall or earn their pro license. Only the best of the best athletes can choose to race in that wave.

I feel bad for the M40-44 athletes running two hours later in the blazing heat today. They can’t compete with those who had 15 degree cooler temps in the early waves.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [piratetri] [ In reply to ]
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I was in that group today. Brutal but lake breeze and thank goodness for the volunteers and plenty of ice made it tolerable.
It was kind of nice that it was relatively empty by then and I got to chase everyone down (mostly out of my AG though did a decent dent with my AG on the run).
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [vkanders] [ In reply to ]
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vkanders wrote:
MI_Mumps wrote:
Can’t believe I don’t see more weather freak out posts! I’m trying to keep a positive mindset.

I was very glad for the shady spots while spectating today - hot stuff

Lots of people burned themselves on the bike and the start of the run. I saw a lot of walking out on course. Volunteers were out in force with ice, though. I think the heat index was 94F when I finished and there is not a leaf of shade on that bike course.

Oh I was definitely one of those people who burned themselves out on the bike . Granted I was in the open wave and spent some quality time sweltering in the wetsuit. Bike was okay until the bridge, was scary as heck coming down the bridge in to the wind. It was definitely getting breezier as the day went on

By the time I got to the run everything was out of whack. Was over on electrolytes and locking up until I had water, loosened up but then took it too far. Stomach couldn’t take anything after that. Somehow finished, went back to hotel, prayed to the porcelain gods, wife debated taking me to hospital…. Fun times!

Despite a terrible race I gotta say they put on a heck of an event. Volunteers were AMAZING! Swim start they had the ice and the water to help everyone. Even pushed us back to the shade so we didn’t keep baking in the sun. Out on the course everyone was great and there was still ice, thank god. They even had the taller racks which is great for tall guys and big bikes. Overall a great race setup and execution from the organizers
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [Once-a-miler] [ In reply to ]
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Once-a-miler wrote:
dcpinsonn wrote:
Really doesn't seem too difficult to me. Keep qualifying the way it is. Define elite under a certain time threshold (keep it tight) & require proof when you sign up. Doesn't make sense if the National Champion is crowned from an earlier wave if someone finishes super close but started an hour or two later. It happened last year in the sprint. 1 & 2 were separated by a second. Who knows what happens if they start together. Maybe 1 wins by even more. Maybe 2nd, who ran ~2 minutes faster, catches them.


I agree- it would be cool to see the top athletes compete head to head. Here is a simple idea- have your “AG waves” and add an “overall” wave. Give athletes the discretion to select.

Yeah I think USAT should think about something like this, but I also think a lot of very good AG athletes want to compete for AG awards. Some people just don't want to turn pro. I did a race earlier in the season as an "elite" and awards went 5 deep. I was just outside and would have won my age group but I knew the deal going in & wanted to compete in the smaller field. I think people wouldn't want to sign up if they were exempt from age group awards. Say you have a field of 20ish and we acknowledge the top-5 then a bunch of AG podium types walk away with nothing. I don't know how to reconcile that but think they should all get the shot to race each other. It's rare to have such deep fields.

I guess I would advocate for an elite start and make the standard something like 2:10ish/2:25ish (top-100 or so) but keep everyone eligible for age group awards. Then if you have someone later in the day who does better they pass someone who competed earlier. I think the current system is fine because you compete age group and start together and get awards based off of that. Slight differences in conditions, & in competition, matter for the very top athletes going for the overall win.

Anyways, was my first year at AG Nats & I gotta say I loved it. Good organization. Good energy. Great competition. The weather ended up being decent today but, with the forecast, I think the Super Sprint was the right call. That bridge and descent into T2 would have been deadly if the weather was as bad as originally projected.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn wrote:
Once-a-miler wrote:
dcpinsonn wrote:
Really doesn't seem too difficult to me. Keep qualifying the way it is. Define elite under a certain time threshold (keep it tight) & require proof when you sign up. Doesn't make sense if the National Champion is crowned from an earlier wave if someone finishes super close but started an hour or two later. It happened last year in the sprint. 1 & 2 were separated by a second. Who knows what happens if they start together. Maybe 1 wins by even more. Maybe 2nd, who ran ~2 minutes faster, catches them.


I agree- it would be cool to see the top athletes compete head to head. Here is a simple idea- have your “AG waves” and add an “overall” wave. Give athletes the discretion to select.


Yeah I think USAT should think about something like this, but I also think a lot of very good AG athletes want to compete for AG awards. Some people just don't want to turn pro. I did a race earlier in the season as an "elite" and awards went 5 deep. I was just outside and would have won my age group but I knew the deal going in & wanted to compete in the smaller field. I think people wouldn't want to sign up if they were exempt from age group awards. Say you have a field of 20ish and we acknowledge the top-5 then a bunch of AG podium types walk away with nothing. I don't know how to reconcile that but think they should all get the shot to race each other. It's rare to have such deep fields.

I guess I would advocate for an elite start and make the standard something like 2:10ish/2:25ish (top-100 or so) but keep everyone eligible for age group awards. Then if you have someone later in the day who does better they pass someone who competed earlier. I think the current system is fine because you compete age group and start together and get awards based off of that. Slight differences in conditions, & in competition, matter for the very top athletes going for the overall win.

Anyways, was my first year at AG Nats & I gotta say I loved it. Good organization. Good energy. Great competition. The weather ended up being decent today but, with the forecast, I think the Super Sprint was the right call. That bridge and descent into T2 would have been deadly if the weather was as bad as originally projected.

I don't know the solution, but if there were an elite wave at 7am, I would have signed up for it. I went off at 9:05 with the M35-39 and competed strongly in the conditions for a 2nd place finish. But, I was 29th overall. I went 2:02:50 versus a 1:58:29 last year (With another late start but weather conditions didn't deteriorate quite so badly). I see so many of the 7-7:30AM start people who beat me and wouldn't be close if they started with me. I was 9th overall bike split and passed 500 ppl? If I went at 7am i'd have my average swim, pass 15-20 total people on the bike, and be running in temps that were 10* cooler. It's fun getting the age group podium, but I hate losing too much to really enjoy it all when I look at the overall results. I wanted to be top 10-12, but that was impossible given the wind and temps by the time I went off. I'm whining now, but I think I've decided I'm not returning based on this whole issue. An elite wave would totally change that. I honestly wouldn't even care about an AG award and I'm def not close to going pro.

Blog: https://davidkoppeltriathlon.blogspot.com/
Coaching: https://dkendurance.com/
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [DKMNTRI] [ In reply to ]
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How is everyone viewing results? The 2022 link has all 2019 info - https://www.teamusa.org/...hampionships/results


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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dmagic17] [ In reply to ]
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download the USAT app. It's just like the IM app in the way it operates.

Blog: https://davidkoppeltriathlon.blogspot.com/
Coaching: https://dkendurance.com/
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [DKMNTRI] [ In reply to ]
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DKMNTRI wrote:
download the USAT app. It's just like the IM app in the way it operates.

IDK what was going on with the app this weekend, but it was terrible. My husband said so many people he talked to said they missed seeing their athletes because the tracker was so off. I came in about 10 minutes ahead of my predicted time and my coach almost missed me.

I did the open sprint wave on Sunday, and the tracker currently says that that wave is still waiting to start. But for some reason, I show up in the championship category of my AG, which I shouldn't be.

Download it, but it's got issues. I wish they'd put them up on the website.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dmagic17] [ In reply to ]
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https://track.rtrt.me/e/USAT-AGE_GROUP-2022#/leaderboard/olympic
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [IronScholar] [ In reply to ]
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IronScholar wrote:
DKMNTRI wrote:
download the USAT app. It's just like the IM app in the way it operates.


IDK what was going on with the app this weekend, but it was terrible. My husband said so many people he talked to said they missed seeing their athletes because the tracker was so off. I came in about 10 minutes ahead of my predicted time and my coach almost missed me.

I did the open sprint wave on Sunday, and the tracker currently says that that wave is still waiting to start. But for some reason, I show up in the championship category of my AG, which I shouldn't be.

Download it, but it's got issues. I wish they'd put them up on the website.

So if you are talking about run finish on Saturday, the tracker had a problem. The first split reader on the run (1.2 miles) was way short of 1.2 miles (somewhere around 1.0 miles). I am guessing that happened because of a rookie mistake -- they wanted a time at 1.2, but that was on the back portion of the first out and back -- so the split got triggered when we were on our way out to the point (and then when we crossed the reader the second time on the way back it was ignored because we had already triggered the split). Check out your first split -- I think everyone's was way faster than reality.

So once you have too fast of a time for the first split, you get way too slow of a time (and therefore pace for the second split) assuming that the second split was the proper distance. Then the predicted finish time (based on the second split pace) will be way off.

I think USAT does a great job with its races (e.g., AGN and Multisport Festival), but this is one area where it struggles. I wish it would hire the required expertise either in house or a timing subcontractor.

On the other hand, I have a little more sympathy for the tracker on Sunday. They made the change to Super Sprint at the last minute and it would be a lot harder to accommodate the change (e.g., repositioning split readers, reprogramming the computer, etc.). Yeah, maybe there could have been a contingency plan for this, but . . .
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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hugoagogo wrote:
IronScholar wrote:
DKMNTRI wrote:
download the USAT app. It's just like the IM app in the way it operates.


IDK what was going on with the app this weekend, but it was terrible. My husband said so many people he talked to said they missed seeing their athletes because the tracker was so off. I came in about 10 minutes ahead of my predicted time and my coach almost missed me.

I did the open sprint wave on Sunday, and the tracker currently says that that wave is still waiting to start. But for some reason, I show up in the championship category of my AG, which I shouldn't be.

Download it, but it's got issues. I wish they'd put them up on the website.


So if you are talking about run finish on Saturday, the tracker had a problem. The first split reader on the run (1.2 miles) was way short of 1.2 miles (somewhere around 1.0 miles). I am guessing that happened because of a rookie mistake -- they wanted a time at 1.2, but that was on the back portion of the first out and back -- so the split got triggered when we were on our way out to the point (and then when we crossed the reader the second time on the way back it was ignored because we had already triggered the split). Check out your first split -- I think everyone's was way faster than reality.

So once you have too fast of a time for the first split, you get way too slow of a time (and therefore pace for the second split) assuming that the second split was the proper distance. Then the predicted finish time (based on the second split pace) will be way off.

I think USAT does a great job with its races (e.g., AGN and Multisport Festival), but this is one area where it struggles. I wish it would hire the required expertise either in house or a timing subcontractor.

On the other hand, I have a little more sympathy for the tracker on Sunday. They made the change to Super Sprint at the last minute and it would be a lot harder to accommodate the change (e.g., repositioning split readers, reprogramming the computer, etc.). Yeah, maybe there could have been a contingency plan for this, but . . .

There was a second run split check though, which should have leveled things out a bit more, right? Based on my second run split, the predictor was still off a fair bit. It wasn't just the run though. My husband was at bike in talking to people, and that's where he heard most of the conversation about missing athletes.

Sunday...sure, changing everything could have thrown a wrench in it with tracking. One of my teammates was in male 40-44, and I think he was out on the bike before the tracker registered he even started. But it's currently 4:26pm on Monday and in the app, the female open sprint 40-59 wave is still showing "This race has not started yet." Um, it not only started, it's over. The data should be there.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [IronScholar] [ In reply to ]
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IronScholar wrote:
There was a second run split check though, which should have leveled things out a bit more, right? Based on my second run split, the predictor was still off a fair bit. It wasn't just the run though. My husband was at bike in talking to people, and that's where he heard most of the conversation about missing athletes.

Sunday...sure, changing everything could have thrown a wrench in it with tracking. One of my teammates was in male 40-44, and I think he was out on the bike before the tracker registered he even started. But it's currently 4:26pm on Monday and in the app, the female open sprint 40-59 wave is still showing "This race has not started yet." Um, it not only started, it's over. The data should be there.

Yeah, that's what I am getting at. Because the first split reader was too early on the course, the time to get to the second split is long so that shows a slow pace. The computer applies that slow pace to the distance from the second split to the end and thereby overestimates how long it will take to finish.

On the bike, I think the app does its estimate based on pace and distance. I do not think it takes into account that the last bike split is downhill (and on Saturday was downwind). I would expect a coach to know that the last leg is downwind/downhill, so no excuse there. But for casual observers I can see how they could miss someone coming in.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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First, I'll say that it is really not fair to compare times from Saturday's race between people who started at 7 and people who started at 9 as it did get hotter as the day went on.

This is a tough topic though because the right answer depends on how one views the importance of the multiple purposes of Age Group Nationals. On one hand, you could say it is the national championship and should prioritize a fair race to crown an overall national champion and overall podium. On the other hand, you could say it is an age group national championship and only needs to prioritize a fair race within each age group, which it did on Saturday as everyone in an age group started at the exact same time.

Where it gets messy is that this race is also used to decide World Triathlon championship slots. However, these are based on aged-up results (everyone gets a year added to their USAT age). This was especially advantageous for 34 year-olds like me. I started at 7:12am, but ~80% of my competition for worlds slots started at 9:05am. So, besides having different weather conditions, not everyone is racing head-to-head for worlds slots, which isn't ideal.

The other factor they consider is optimizing athlete density on the course, which is apparently how they came up with the wave schedule. This seems important too and I think they did a good job achieving good spacing on the course.

One approach that might work is to do the waves by ability level (they could use USAT scores to avoid the issues that come with self-seeding/time estimates), fastest to slowest. This ensures that the best athletes are racing head-to-head in wave 1 and everyone is at most 1 or 2 waves apart from their likely closest competitors in their age group which solves the weather difference issue. All awards can still be by age-group and this also mostly solves the age-up problem. This approach is likely bad for course crowding though. Going by age groups works well because they know there will be a pretty large variation in swim/bike speed throughout an age group. However, this is more or less how USAT Collegiate Nationals worked (10 years ago) with the faster athletes going in earlier waves and it seemed to work fine.

In general, I'm all for some sort of elite amateur category in triathlon, but it has to make sense within the context of qualifying for worlds, so unless World Triathlon adopts the category as well, I don't see it working well at USAT Nationals.

Anyways, this was an awesome event and I really hope it is back in Milwaukee again next year (and forever).
Last edited by: jwmott: Aug 8, 22 21:08
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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nyways, this was an awesome event and I really hope it is back in Milwaukee again next year (and forever).

——-
It will be there next year and also they are going to more of a “festival” approach by adding Youth and Junior Champs- DL youth/juniors as well as non-draft youth/juniors (which had previously been held for 10 years outside Cincinnati)

Which will be interesting as to when the actual races go off. I’m guessing DL events Friday and then MTR juniors potentially Saturday afternoon to take advantage of the AG athletes and getting a “crowd” for it.

8 years ago at AG Nats they did a pro “super sprint” on site at the AG venue. I kinda see something like that.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Why not just have an open wave and by entering the open wave you forfeit AG classification and/or worlds slots. If that clause causes you to not race in said category- cool. In talking to many of the top overall places and their coaches, how many actually go to worlds vs use it as a chance to qualify for pro card or use it as opportunity to race the best in the country. For those athletes that’s the bigger draw than a worlds AG slot from talks of coaches and athletes I’ve been able to talk too.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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That’s interesting - my teammates were just talking about how cool it would be to have the youth races the same weekend on our drive home. They have two kids who raced last weekend In Ohio. Looks like they might get their wish!

I was so grateful to be able to race on Sunday, especially going to bed Saturday thinking it wasn’t happening. I prefer a mass start and wish I could have compared my time with last year, but ultimately it was just awesome to be able to compete.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
8 years ago at AG Nats they did a pro “super sprint” on site at the AG venue. I kinda see something like that.

I live tweeted that as I had an athlete or two racing there. IDK if you want to go back that far in my twitter timeline though, I sure don't haha

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks - I so remember that elite super sprint in Milwaukee. Our main reason for that "showcase event" was to have as many age-group athletes witness how cool draft legal super sprint can be. Further, as President of USAT at the time, I proposed we keep AGNC at Milwaukee permanently/indefinitely. It had rave reviews, centrally located in the US, easy to get to, and a very welcoming community. Make it like Hilton Head was back in the day. This was nixed when they built the new arena/stadium downtown, and we had to go somewhere else (Cleveland); but, now, I hope USAT considers making Milwaukee "The Home of AGNC." I also love adding the youth & juniors!
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott &B_Doughtie ] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
First, I'll say that it is really not fair to compare times from Saturday's race between people who started at 7 and people who started at 9 as it did get hotter as the day went on.

This is a tough topic though because the right answer depends on how one views the importance of the multiple purposes of Age Group Nationals. On one hand, you could say it is the national championship and should prioritize a fair race to crown an overall national champion and overall podium. On the other hand, you could say it is an age group national championship and only needs to prioritize a fair race within each age group, which it did on Saturday as everyone in an age group started at the exact same time.

Where it gets messy is that this race is also used to decide World Triathlon championship slots. However, these are based on aged-up results (everyone gets a year added to their USAT age). This was especially advantageous for 34 year-olds like me. I started at 7:12am, but ~80% of my competition for worlds slots started at 9:05am. So, besides having different weather conditions, not everyone is racing head-to-head for worlds slots, which isn't ideal.

The other factor they consider is optimizing athlete density on the course, which is apparently how they came up with the wave schedule. This seems important too and I think they did a good job achieving good spacing on the course.

One approach that might work is to do the waves by ability level (they could use USAT scores to avoid the issues that come with self-seeding/time estimates), fastest to slowest. This ensures that the best athletes are racing head-to-head in wave 1 and everyone is at most 1 or 2 waves apart from their likely closest competitors in their age group which solves the weather difference issue. All awards can still be by age-group and this also mostly solves the age-up problem. This approach is likely bad for course crowding though. Going by age groups works well because they know there will be a pretty large variation in swim/bike speed throughout an age group. However, this is more or less how USAT Collegiate Nationals worked (10 years ago) with the faster athletes going in earlier waves and it seemed to work fine.

In general, I'm all for some sort of elite amateur category in triathlon, but it has to make sense within the context of qualifying for worlds, so unless World Triathlon adopts the category as well, I don't see it working well at USAT Nationals.

Anyways, this was an awesome event and I really hope it is back in Milwaukee again next year (and forever).


Bring back the 90's! Almost every race that had prize money had an open/elite wave. I can remember racing in those lining up next to pros who were gracing the cover of the tri mags. I can also remember plenty of 1:54-2h oly times that did not put me in the money.

A long time ago I sat or talked with people who were working on a committee for some sort of category thing for AG racing similar to bike racing. That idea got killed quickly by whoever the committee was reporting to.

I think, from what I've gathered with short talks with people at USAT, they want and they do everything in their power to make it as fair as possible for everyone in that AG that is about to start. Wave starts for the head to head know where you're at aspect, spreading the waves out to keep rider density down and prevent clumping of riders on the bike, making sure the start dock is = distance so no one has an advantage by starting on one side etc.

[quoteB_Doughtie] In talking to many of the top overall places and their coaches, how many actually go to worlds vs use it as a chance to qualify for pro card or use it as opportunity to race the best in the country. For those athletes that’s the bigger draw than a worlds AG slot from talks of coaches and athletes I’ve been able to talk too.[/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Most people aren't here for AG worlds slots as they often roll down 20-30 spots (sounds like another worlds). They are here bc it's one of the most competitive races in the US......of any distance year after year after year.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Aug 9, 22 13:40
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [5430tri] [ In reply to ]
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5430tri wrote:
Brooks - I so remember that elite super sprint in Milwaukee. Our main reason for that "showcase event" was to have as many age-group athletes witness how cool draft legal super sprint can be. Further, as President of USAT at the time, I proposed we keep AGNC at Milwaukee permanently/indefinitely. It had rave reviews, centrally located in the US, easy to get to, and a very welcoming community. Make it like Hilton Head was back in the day. This was nixed when they built the new arena/stadium downtown, and we had to go somewhere else (Cleveland); but, now, I hope USAT considers making Milwaukee "The Home of AGNC." I also love adding the youth & juniors!



^^^^^^ TOTALLY AGREE!! Such an awesome venue in all ways and the addition of the youth would be amazing.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Moving the Youth and Juniors to AG weekend will cut huge costs for usat as right now they have back to back multi day championship weekends. So compressing that to 1 x 3-4 day event will help.

But I think you’ll see in the long run it’ll put a lot of pressure on youth and juniors families. Especially as they already travel to 3-4 race weekends around the country.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Another thing will be safe sport compliancy when you bring that many people into an venue with u18 athletes as well. Especially in this day and age or federations being sued for “not protecting” their youth etc.

I don’t know if regular usat members must take safe sport each year. I know coaches and any adults who are in regular contact ( asst non usat coaches, parent volunteers etc) with juniors have to take it. Coaches in fact this year got “credentialed” at Youth Juniors, similar to what they do at USA swim meets or big events. (It basically meant you had passed safe sport)

Is Safe sport a requirement now for regular usat membership?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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No, Safe Sport is not a requirement for regular USAT membership.

What would the extra financial pressure be on youth families? If, like my friends, both they and their kids race, it will be a money and time saver. If it is just their kids racing, it will be a wash. Traveling to Milwaukee vs. West Chester.

Now maybe you can argue that West Chester is an easier drive for East Coast families, but Milwaukee is easier for some folks as well.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Why not just have an open wave and by entering the open wave you forfeit AG classification and/or worlds slots.


This could certainly work, but it could get messy as it often does when there is this kind of wave/division at smaller races. I think it likely ends up pitting more of the top athletes head-to-head, so that's good. But what if the overall fastest time isn't from this wave? Are they still "national champion"? Or do you have to be in the open wave to be considered for overall placing?

We have this at our local race series in Colorado. What ends up happening is that about half the top 10 is in the elite division and half isn't for whatever reason (age group podium pics look better on Instagram than no podium pic in the elite wave?). It becomes sort of pointless. With worlds slots (which I'm sure some of the top athletes do care about), the pull to not enter the open/elite wave becomes even stronger than it is at the local races.

For this to work well I think there needs to be a strong incentive to be in the open wave. Or even forced entry into the wave above a certain USAT ranking score (though that is bad for those that do care about worlds if worlds doesn't have this category too). I don't see a strong enough incentive to get all the fastest people in this wave voluntarily until it is some exclusive/qualification thing that culturally is sought after.

I still think doing the waves by USAT score would be best (not perfect). Sure, the top of an age group might start 2 hours before the bottom of an age group, but those people aren't really competing anyways even though they're in the same age group. I don't think you'd have anyone complaining about that.
Last edited by: jwmott: Aug 9, 22 12:38
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Had a blast at the Oly race and pumped to hear it might end up back in Milwaukee again next year!

Question on the rolldown for worlds slots in case anyone's in the know - I was just outside the rolldown window for my AG but realized after I got home that I'd forgotten about the age-up rule and might actually be in the mix in the aged-up group. Has anyone seen aged-up results yet or are they planning to post them? Did I miss out on my (slim) chance by not hitting the lounge/awards ceremony on the day of and letting them know I'm interested, or do they still contact people regardless?
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Just make it as simple as possible. You want to race for the "win" at the front of the field (in the best conditions theoretically), you go into this open/elite wave. By doing so you forfeit any AG spot / AG awards / AG slots. You are simply racing USAT AG Nationals in the open wave. Said winner may be 1st overall time, may be 8th overall time. Just as there is "AG winners", you could win "Open wave" winner (and still not be the fastest overall athlete).

NC has the same type of categories you guys have. We just had an non IM 70.3 that was "won" by an AG athlete outside of the open wave.


I dont think it needs to be forced to be in that group, the stipulations will limit the amount in that group already being taken out of AG awards. OR simply remove "overall" from an race that is 100% AG category racing (I know that wont happen) and thus is greatly affected by the start of your wave.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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First- this has nothing to do with the location of the event. AG nats could be in San Diego, North Carolina, or in the middle of the country, and it'll be a financial burden, because the likely timeline is going to mean the youth and juniors races will no longer be on the weekend, as it has since the start of the event. So that means more travel during the week, and parents having to take more time off AND likely parents not being able to get to the venue. I know lots of families that go that 1 parent flies/drives to the event with the athlete and the other parent comes in the night before the event, because they had to work.

So what was a Thur travel day, Fri pre race day, Sat race invidual, Sun race MTR is now likely going to be pushed back 1 day. It only sounds like 1 day but again, when your talking about families taking time off work, that can be a burden.

Also it's 1 week further than what has always been, and for many they start school sports....which is why the race has always gone off in the late July / early Aug time frame.

But again it'll save money for USAT and will create a bigger "festival" feel, and that seems to be how many of these events are going toward.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kristofredei] [ In reply to ]
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I emailed USAT about aged-up results just because I'm interested in seeing them. I can report back if I hear anything.

I believe that all the worlds slots (including rolldowns) were claimed on the day of the race at the awards ceremony. I don't think there is any rolldown beyond that. I'm not positive though as I wasn't able to be there.

From https://www.teamusa.org/...am-USA/Qualification

"We will post the age-up results at the awards ceremony of Toyota Age Group Nationals. At other national championships, age-up results will not be posted, and athletes will claim their spot through email within 2-3 weeks post-event."
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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I recall seeing due to the cancellation of last years Worlds that there were very few spots for most AG at least for the OD race. Therefore likely less change of rolling down. I didn't race but I read that for my AG there were only 2 slots.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [hiker726] [ In reply to ]
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That was for last year's Nationals and this year's worlds. I recall reading that when trying to find information on qualification for this year. They linked to last year's document somewhere. It was a little hard to find this year's qualification information.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Ah - interesting points on the timing. That could definitely make a difference. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I personally think the open/ elite wave gets complicated. Removing folks from AG awards has issues, especially considering Worlds qualifications. I wish USAT would de-emphasize the overall winners and focus on the AG aspect of AGNC

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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But see I think it makes it more simplier in that if you make it a cut and dry rule- AG slots are forfeited if you race open wave. End of story. But of course this is the “AG” national champs so by default it’ll never go down like that. Some years you’ll get in a good starting spot and some other years you won’t.

I kinda chuckle at usat when they will show X athlete breaking tape and blast it all over social media and talk about X is the fastest and then 90 mins later someone actually goes faster and suddenly a new overall champion forms…funny enough that’s happened to an athlete of mine. It creates a weird dynamic (I def had but I saw your athlete win comments from people), but I get it the running through the banner is a social media money shot. So in that aspect hope to be in the early waves to get that publicity.

Again they’ll never create an open wave. I just think it’s a bunch of different races that have so many specific variables that affect your time, “overall” placing is kinda a hard pill to swallow at times.

Eta: and that isn’t to take away from the people who race and rock solid times w the best conditions. Or to make excuses. It’s to say I don’t think they ran the same race….even though it was the same course on the same day.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 9, 22 19:53
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Why not just have an open wave and by entering the open wave you forfeit AG classification and/or worlds slots.


This could certainly work, but it could get messy as it often does when there is this kind of wave/division at smaller races. I think it likely ends up pitting more of the top athletes head-to-head, so that's good. But what if the overall fastest time isn't from this wave? Are they still "national champion"? Or do you have to be in the open wave to be considered for overall placing?

We have this at our local race series in Colorado. What ends up happening is that about half the top 10 is in the elite division and half isn't for whatever reason (age group podium pics look better on Instagram than no podium pic in the elite wave?). It becomes sort of pointless. With worlds slots (which I'm sure some of the top athletes do care about), the pull to not enter the open/elite wave becomes even stronger than it is at the local races.

For this to work well I think there needs to be a strong incentive to be in the open wave. Or even forced entry into the wave above a certain USAT ranking score (though that is bad for those that do care about worlds if worlds doesn't have this category too). I don't see a strong enough incentive to get all the fastest people in this wave voluntarily until it is some exclusive/qualification thing that culturally is sought after.

I still think doing the waves by USAT score would be best (not perfect). Sure, the top of an age group might start 2 hours before the bottom of an age group, but those people aren't really competing anyways even though they're in the same age group. I don't think you'd have anyone complaining about that.


I agree with this. I don't know how having an elite/open wave but excluding those athletes from World Champs + AG Podiums solves anything when they're still all AG athletes & not everyone would move over. We're having the same issue where half of the best athletes would square off & half would go try to age group podium. I would just have 1 wave start first & use score rating to determine who is in that wave. My wave was ~150 or so. That would be ~95 score rating based on 2021. You could do something smaller. If someone outside of the top-150 finishes ahead of someone who started in the first wave then then they finish ahead of them for their age group & overall. If you're in that first wave you have nothing to complain about since you started first & started with the fastest athletes.
Last edited by: dcpinsonn: Aug 10, 22 4:04
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
That was for last year's Nationals and this year's worlds. I recall reading that when trying to find information on qualification for this year. They linked to last year's document somewhere. It was a little hard to find this year's qualification information.

For Olympic distance, I believe there are some deferrals to deal with into 2023 for those who had a valid basis to not race in Abu Dhabi this year (I don't recall exact contours of "valid basis" but it had to due with repressive nature of government there). I have no idea how many such deferrals there are.

Also, I believe roll downs can happen further down the line. At AGN, people are just indicating intent. A few weeks later, you have to pony up some $s (has been $75) to hold spot. I believe the slots that don't pay by the deadline then roll down. Also, I believe even after that, if slots open up they can roll down as long as they open up well before entries have to be submitted to World Triathlon (so if you claim a spot (even if you've paid money for it) and then learn you can't go, please let USAT know so someone else can race).
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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In your scenario of having wave 1 athletes being able to race at the front and for their specific AG category- you’ve brought in way more unfairness for the categories. Right now the only “unfairness” is overall, but this being the “AG” champs that isn’t too big of a deal cus the racers starting 2 hours later still are racing for their AG and it’s right in front of them. Win that group and your a national champion. Your scenario would have it you’ll never know where you stood in your category until all the results are posted cus you would have athletes in 2 different waves potentially 2 hours apart etc.

You can’t have a category based championship and then not have them race at the same time. Your solution creates way more unfairness than any solution.

Thus the most fairest solution is that instead of AG wave 1 competes for overall only. They don’t get to race the best conditions and race for AG when their AG could be 90 mins later. But again you have to deny them AG award cus they wouldn’t be racing in M 30-34 or F 16-19 etc. it’s simply their “category” would be open. They do that already at plenty of local racing events. 4th place open but 1st place M25-29 doesn’t get the AG award, their award is 4th place.

Who says it can’t be like that at AG champs? That is way better solution than allowing for the AG categories to have athletes not racing together and results go together. You have to race the category you are assigned at the SAME time, as the fairest way of doing it. Anything else does not solve the fairness issue we are debating.


Of course they’ll never create an open wave. But your solution solves way less than the solution I suggested.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 10, 22 5:43
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Really like how you're dealing in absolutes -- I'm just throwing some ideas out there and think the problem with what you're proposing is that you still wouldn't get all of the best athletes competing against one another, which is the problem we're trying to solve right? What I'm proposing is a somewhat lax standard for the 1st/elite/open wave so most people gunning for age group awards are competing at the same time. That does a lot to fix the fairness component if the age group award winners are all in that wave. This isn't a local triathlon where you have 1 4th place open not getting an award like in your scenario. Do the elite wave by score rating & then if someone shows up at AG Nats & does really well out of a later wave you still reward them. Is it perfect? No. But so many good age group athletes wouldn't go for what else has been thrown out there.

I do agree, overall, that AG Nationals does a good job currently of deciding who is the best in each age group. I'd rather keep the current system if something is proposed that doesn't get all of the top athletes competing against one another. Right now overall place & score rating is affected by where you start. You could miss out on an overall podium or your pro card because you started an hour or two after other athletes. I get that this is a unique problem and those athletes will likely just do what they need to do at another race.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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But what I'm proposing is already being done every weekend at local events. Tons of race companies have open waves and AG waves. You race and are scored based on the category you pick. Race open- you don't get AG awards. Race AG you may miss out on the "best" competition but you get scored according to your AG.


I'm not trying to recreate the wheel. It's already being used successful at tons of races across the country.


(you and several others including myself have already mentioned that.....not sure why it's that complicated...it's only complicated cus it'll never happen at "AG" nats an event that is based on racing your AG...IE that is the only "waves" that want to be created).


So this is all theoretical debate, they aren't going to create an open wave and force the top X to race in it, they aren't going to create an open wave and exclude you from AG awards, the current setup is the fairest for the individual AG's, which is the whole point of the championship- only the overall placings are "unfair" (and which we are debating a better solution).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 10, 22 7:46
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kristofredei] [ In reply to ]
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kristofredei wrote:
Had a blast at the Oly race and pumped to hear it might end up back in Milwaukee again next year!

Question on the rolldown for worlds slots in case anyone's in the know - I was just outside the rolldown window for my AG but realized after I got home that I'd forgotten about the age-up rule and might actually be in the mix in the aged-up group. Has anyone seen aged-up results yet or are they planning to post them? Did I miss out on my (slim) chance by not hitting the lounge/awards ceremony on the day of and letting them know I'm interested, or do they still contact people regardless?

Hard to say... in the Oly they took 18 and the Sprint took 8 with the age up adjustments. Someone at the lounge had it pulled up on their phone, so it is available somewhere.

Either way if you're interested in a Worlds slot, I'd e-mail USAT to be sure.

In terms of my own race, starting at almost 9:30 was tough for me on Saturday. I don't do well in that sort of weather and I went around 8 minutes slower and fell off the podium... was in 10th off the bike after clawing through 20'sh spots on the bike... my worst swim at this venue for some reason. My mantra in my head went something like... 'don't stop' during the run. The Super Sprint went a little better for me and found the podium there.

Good weekend overall.
Last edited by: xeon: Aug 10, 22 8:39
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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In the Team USA lounge for Olympic race USAT was allowing the top 18 per AG to indicate they would or would not be attending 2023 Pontevedra worlds. They said anyone outside top 18 would be contacted in the future re roll downs.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [kristofredei] [ In reply to ]
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Aged-up results are posted here now: https://www.teamusa.org/...hampionships/results
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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If you go beyond just wave 1 being based on ability (have the highest X USAT scores in wave 1, the next highest X in wave 2, etc.) then you solve the problem of anyone starting 2 hours apart (or even 15 minutes apart) from anyone else that will have a remotely similar finishing time.

The person in wave 20 going 3:15 isn't going to complain that they got 300th in their age group just because they started 2 hours later than the person that went 1:55 and won their age group and went in wave 1. Sure, the person in wave 1 may have had better conditions but it didn't affect their placing relative to the person in wave 20. The person in wave 2 going 2:05 also isn't going to complain that they got 10th but would have won if they went 10 minutes earlier in wave 1. They had practically the same race conditions as the wave 1 winner who started 10 minutes earlier. See?

This practically guarantees that everyone races against all their closest competitors, practically guarantees that the first to cross the line is the overall winner, and still makes age group results for all age groups fair.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn wrote:
I'd rather keep the current system if something is proposed that doesn't get all of the top athletes competing against one another.

Agree. It is pretty good how it is now. The only way to improve it is to guarantee all the top athletes going head to head while preserving eligibility for age group awards and worlds slots for everyone.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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Good to know about roll downs. I just recalled writing a deposit check on site in 2014.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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In theory that sounds good but I assume you would have to base it on the previous year's USAT rankings because USAT has proven that it is incapable of keeping their ranking system up to date? You would think that the race they put on just four and five days ago would be entered into their own ranking system but amazingly the results are nowhere to be found. Under results it indicates results are not available yet. To add further insult to injury their own tracking system app is no longer working. It says Congrats to all Participants and underneath it says upcoming. When you tap on top finishers - nothing. USAT is woefully inept at a very basic task unfortunately.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
But what I'm proposing is already being done every weekend at local events. Tons of race companies have open waves and AG waves. You race and are scored based on the category you pick. Race open- you don't get AG awards. Race AG you may miss out on the "best" competition but you get scored according to your AG.


I'm not trying to recreate the wheel. It's already being used successful at tons of races across the country.


(you and several others including myself have already mentioned that.....not sure why it's that complicated...it's only complicated cus it'll never happen at "AG" nats an event that is based on racing your AG...IE that is the only "waves" that want to be created).


So this is all theoretical debate, they aren't going to create an open wave and force the top X to race in it, they aren't going to create an open wave and exclude you from AG awards, the current setup is the fairest for the individual AG's, which is the whole point of the championship- only the overall placings are "unfair" (and which we are debating a better solution).

It's already being done every weekend, but it is broken and doesn't accomplish the goal (for some people) of getting all the top competitors racing head-to-head because entry into the wave is voluntary. Some people don't know about it, some people think it is for professionals only, some people would rather get a podium picture from winning their age group, etc. It's all fine, but I think there is room for improvement in triathlon to create more compelling head-to-head competition.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, it would ideally be based on your latest results but you're right USAT has a ways to go in that department.

The results are available here FWIW: https://www.teamusa.org/...hampionships/results
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, your advocating for the ole desert dude "category" based system based on ability and not age for racing (he's been suggesting that for years and likely rightfully so). I just don't think you can "force" people into a time/finish based wave start, at an event that is based on racing individuals in your own age category *at the same time*.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 11, 22 14:53
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Ha, yeah I'll always be advocating for a category system in triathlon! But my Nationals proposal is a step back from that, just organizing waves by ability but still having age groups.

I still really don't think the top and bottom of an age group care if they start at the same time, but maybe others feel differently. If they did waves by ability next year, I think the majority of reactions would be somewhere between "sweet!" and "whatever" with little complaining.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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Funny enough I just saw this article on triathlete magazine about the cat system.

I "credit" desert dude with the idea because I know he's been talking about it for years (I've been on ST since summer of '08) and he's the 1st person in the industry that I ever saw talk about it.

https://www.triathlete.com/culture/a-case-for-cycling-categories-in-triathlon/


More realistic than overhauling the way USAT does age groups or time trialing would be to require any USAT-sanctioned race to offer an elite age group wave—which has happened sporadically at short-course events in the past. This wave would allow top male and female age group athletes to race the way they really want to – against others of the same ability and truly battling it out for the overall amateur title.
Yount is all for it. He agreed that having top age groupers race against each other in one wave can be beneficial for the athletes, the race, and the sport – but it takes a conversation to make this change.
“Race directors, especially local ones, are usually open to suggestions about how they can improve their races,” Yount said. “Don’t be afraid to approach a race director and enter into that problem-solving type of conversation about how to make a race more attractive to top age groupers. You may be surprised at how willing a race director is to accommodate your ask.”






Essentially they think as Tim Yount was quoted in the article, to make an elite AG wave to start (similiar to what many races already do with the open wave we've already discussed...it's just not "required" to enter unless you want too).





Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 13, 22 17:57
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Funny enough I just saw this article on triathlete magazine about the cat system.

I "credit" desert dude with the idea because I know he's been talking about it for years (I've been on ST since summer of '08) and he's the 1st person in the industry that I ever saw talk about it.

https://www.triathlete.com/culture/a-case-for-cycling-categories-in-triathlon/


I can remember talking to someone at USAT about a category system a long, long time ago. I had sketched out how it would work for upgrades, Pro & AG etc.
When I talked with someone at USAT about that it landed with the loudest thud I've ever heard.


Along with that I had also sketched out a tier system for long course races. It allowed the 2 biggest race companies in the world each a top tier event (IMH & Roth). It set up a development pathway for LC pros so that 1st & second year pros could learn to race while still getting an opportunity to go head to head with the best in the world now and then, insured that the biggest names would be racing each other for the biggest prize purses, made several more events marquee events (companies could rotate these if they wanted), set up a system to insure that there was an opportunity for new pros to develop so they might stay in the sport more than 2 years

That also landed with a very loud thud when I presented it to a race company.

I got the feeling that both were more interested in short term (1-2yr) vs developing a product that could lead to long(er) term greater success

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [piratetri] [ In reply to ]
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It appears USAT has added an "Open" race to the 2023 AGNC schedule for both olympic and sprint distance in addition to the Age Group race. It requires qualification which makes me think this is more of an "elite" or "overall" competition for the top athletes.

2023 USA Triathlon Nationals (teamusa.org)
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [playguy] [ In reply to ]
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5430tri wrote:
Brooks - I so remember that elite super sprint in Milwaukee. Our main reason for that "showcase event" was to have as many age-group athletes witness how cool draft legal super sprint can be. Further, as President of USAT at the time, I proposed we keep AGNC at Milwaukee permanently/indefinitely. It had rave reviews, centrally located in the US, easy to get to, and a very welcoming community. Make it like Hilton Head was back in the day. This was nixed when they built the new arena/stadium downtown, and we had to go somewhere else (Cleveland); but, now, I hope USAT considers making Milwaukee "The Home of AGNC." I also love adding the youth & juniors!


Am I the only one who did not care for this bike course?
Aside from the first loop out to the right, everything else what riddled with potholes and massive gaps/crack/seams.
I raced in MKE in 2021, 2022, and the fact the event came back for 2023 is actually the reason why I'm not going to register again.

If USAT would consider rerouting the second 2/3's of the bike course, basically all of the pothole'd concrete going up the hill and to the right (after the underpass)... maybe a more rideable course
Last edited by: MJGuswiler: Nov 2, 22 11:51
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MJGuswiler] [ In reply to ]
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I said the exact same thing in '21. I was met with quite a few differing opinions... Personally, that bike course is incredible rough and it's hard to put your head down and go.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [piratetri] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting observation, but I think that's a typo with the * there.

Digging further, there is an open race that doesn't require qualification.

https://www.teamusa.org/...8EEEC7D158C&_z=z

Olympic-distance Qualification$195
Sprint distance Qualification$125
Time to Tri Open Olympic$195
Time to Tri Open Sprint$125
Open Water Swim Competition$45
Last edited by: jwmott: Nov 2, 22 13:31
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [MJGuswiler] [ In reply to ]
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Huh, I don't recall thinking that the bike course was rough. Certainly the bridge has those big bumps but that's about all I can remember. A good portion of the highway after the bridge was super smooth. Maybe that second out and back section after the bridge to the last 180 was a little bumpy?
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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That entire portion after you go over the bridge is loaded with pot holes, at least from what I remember. It's not typical pavement, it's like white-ish concrete for miles.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
That entire portion after you go over the bridge is loaded with pot holes, at least from what I remember. It's not typical pavement, it's like white-ish concrete for miles.

Ah, you raced in 2021 but not this year, right? The entire highway section from the bridge to the 180 by the airport to the turn onto Howard, and then again once you turn back onto the highway after the Howard/Lake out and back up to the bridge is completely brand new perfect pavement. See Google street view (https://goo.gl/maps/iqGjC8qcm2shKJYT6). The Howard/Lake out and back is probably the worst section, but is really not too bad usually looking like this: https://goo.gl/maps/e7L3ABiFeKaYLJS49.
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [jwmott] [ In reply to ]
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jwmott wrote:
cloy wrote:
That entire portion after you go over the bridge is loaded with pot holes, at least from what I remember. It's not typical pavement, it's like white-ish concrete for miles.


Ah, you raced in 2021 but not this year, right? The entire highway section from the bridge to the 180 by the airport to the turn onto Howard, and then again once you turn back onto the highway after the Howard/Lake out and back up to the bridge is completely brand new perfect pavement. See Google street view (https://goo.gl/maps/iqGjC8qcm2shKJYT6). The Howard/Lake out and back is probably the worst section, but is really not too bad usually looking like this: https://goo.gl/maps/e7L3ABiFeKaYLJS49.
'

Sign me up for 2023! That looks great!

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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No, the course is quite nice. Chicago is a mess but Milwaukee is pretty smooth and fast.

Kiwami Racing Team
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Re: 2022 Age Group Nationals - Milwaukee [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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cloy wrote:
jwmott wrote:
cloy wrote:
That entire portion after you go over the bridge is loaded with pot holes, at least from what I remember. It's not typical pavement, it's like white-ish concrete for miles.


Ah, you raced in 2021 but not this year, right? The entire highway section from the bridge to the 180 by the airport to the turn onto Howard, and then again once you turn back onto the highway after the Howard/Lake out and back up to the bridge is completely brand new perfect pavement. See Google street view (https://goo.gl/maps/iqGjC8qcm2shKJYT6). The Howard/Lake out and back is probably the worst section, but is really not too bad usually looking like this: https://goo.gl/maps/e7L3ABiFeKaYLJS49.
'

Sign me up for 2023! That looks great!

Raced in 2022, will agree that the pavement after the bridge was fabulous, but as soon as you turn left it was the same as 2021 IMO.
Maybe they fix that section before the race as well?
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