Shifters look nice. Cranks don’t…
Curious on the actual new tech eg wireless.
Just on time for a build up to a TdF launch date.

Wow, yeah those cranks are horrible looking. Something you'd see on a department store bike. Shimano's worst looking since 7900..

hey, I liked the look of 7900 ;-)

I have to assume that isn't the production finish.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I think the informed take on the cranks is that they put aftermarket rings to help disguise them, or production rings weren't ready in their preferred configuration. I think it's very likely the production cranks will look a lot better.

Hoping we'll be able to run 12 speed cassettes with last gen di2...

Yeah a firmware update the 9150/8050 enabling 12 speed would be nice. I hope Shimano goes the Campagnolo route with the cassette and freehub so older wheels won’t be an issue.

Hate to say it but I think you're dreaming. No financial incentive for them to do it even if the engineering of the previous gen actually is adequate, which may not be the case.

I just want to run last-gen Di2 semi-wirelessly (say, via special receivers and transmitters)

Sources I have said that indeed will be the case, backward compatibility, and so is the semi-wireless with controller at junction or FD or even the battery.

That would be very cool. It would also be the last thing I would expect from Shimano.

Not really... with the exception of DA 7970 which uses a different technology altogether, the Di2 system has been backward compatible for some time now. But would something like the 6770 work with 12 speed? That would be nice, but I am not sure it will go back that far.

The rings with the bolt covers there look almost how Rotor rings with Shimano 4-100 bolt covers look on a Shimano crank. Yeah, that's a fugly crank.

Shimano has been really good with backwards compatibility for di2, I dont see why the shifters and older system couldn't be programmed for another cog. Only thing I think we may have to change is the freehub/wheel, doubt they will go the campy route. Im sure they will have enough new features to convince people to do a full group swap regardless.

I am pretty sure they will go with the 12sp micro spline freehub so they can fit a 10t cog.

I am looking forward to a mullet build based on the 12sp Di2.

Is there really any advantage to a 10t cog for road riding in a 2x system? Most pros riding sram still prefer the traditional ratios for their cranksets so it becomes pointless, would rather have an extra cog in shimanos usual cassette ratios like campy does.

Word!

I think for the most casual users including amateur racers, 1x is slowly become practical... I just converted one of my climbing bikes with 44t chainring front, and 10-42t 11sp cassette at the back (SRAM/XDR) using Di2 Dura Ace/GRX mix. So far, I have not found wanting for any gears. Yes, the gaps are little bigger, but the simplicity (and weight saving) is worth it. For entertainment, you should check out the Ride of Japan Youtube/IG posts, he's a weight weenie climber that rides a lot, and had built a sub 6300g (IIRC) 1x climbing Trek Emonda.

I appreciate the backwards compatibility of DI2; it's nice to used e-tubes, batteries, junction boxes, and shifters interchangeably. Aside from a well timed firmware update from Shimano, there is nothing to stop 6770 shifters from working with 12s derailleurs.

The efficiency losses on a 10t or 11t versus being in a 12 or 13 with a larger ring just makes me shudder. Those tiny cogs are not super efficient. Sure, couple watts, but remind me why I'd want to buy something NEW and supposedly better just to throw power in the trash can?

For a while most 10spd Shimano Di2 parts were cross compatible with 11spd. Shimano then decided to pull the pin and sent out a firmware update to kill compatibility. I wouldn’t bet against them doing the same trick again.

They will have already put a feature into the new system which prevents cross compatibility but isn’t activated at this stage. 12 months or so after the launch they will activate this new ‘feature’ and pull support from all products that don’t have the feature. This will allow them to stop support like they did for 10pd Di2 without pissing off customers at the point of launch.

If you didn't "upgrade" the firmware, you would be ok. All the more reason not to automatically update firmware without knowing what's in it.

Still Wired . . . . or not?

I found the comments in the Cycling News article that when SRAM did go truly wireless they put out kits that had wires on them to throw people off with the "spy" shots. Is Shimano doing the same here. The big talk when news first broke about the new Dura Ace was this the time that Shimano would go wireless?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Well smaller rings and smaller cassette (for approximately the same range/ratios). So you might gain that couple of Watts back in aero. And weight, if you care. And while you'd only use the 10t in relatively rare conditions, the smaller frontal area and lower weight would be persistent across all conditions.

I'm a SRAM fanboi. Work with me, here.

Rumors have been consistent that the group will be semi-wireless, with both derailleurs wired to the same battery and wireless shifters. Of course we won't know for sure until the official announcement but I think semi is pretty likely.

This history innt entirely accurate. All 6770 10 speed Di2 components still work with successive generations of Di2 components. The only cross compatibility killed was mixing 10 and 11 speed front and rear derailleurs. Shimano claimed it was accidental in the firmware update and I can see that being true. They just said they wouldn’t reverse it because the trim function for each series was optimized. Shimano is always so conservative on performance specs that this shouldn’t be surprising.

So with the exception of the first gen DA Di2 Shimano has been very good about supporting older Di2 compatibility. The limitations on these newer components are going to be:

1.that they’ve always relied on the rear derailleurs setting the number of shift positions. I’d be pleasantly surprised if Shimano changes this approach and allowed firmware updates to change older RDs to support additional cogs.

2. The wireless shifting capability is apparently supported with transmitters in the shifters and a receiver in the RD. Seems like this setup won’t allow older Gen Di2 to support wireless shifting. Hopefully the all-wired options allow for swapping derailleurs to allow 12 speed cassette use.

There is a 300 page thread on WW and some of the later ones have a lot of patent drawings and pictures. They suggest:
1. DA cassette to be microspline only.
2. Ultegra to be HG with an adapter for microspline
3. All cassettes start at 11t
4. Junction box is inside the shift levers
5. Semi wireless with internal battery and derailleur connected by wires. Eliminates wires from the front of the bike to the back.
6. Hood is slightly larger, presumably due to larger fluid reservoir to improve piston retraction

I'm happy to see it will remain slim and sleek. Likely DA will maintain the ~150-250g advantage and aero advantages over AXS.

Btw, "semi wireless" is a stupid term here, given that even AXS has some wires for levers and junction. But I get we're going to run with that.

for tri, yes. road and gravel, no wires, unless you have secondary shifters on the road bars.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Wireless shifters: https://www.cyclingnews.com/...ess-patents-suggest/

Well I am afraid there are bigger drivetrain losses than aero gains, otherwise the Wattshop guys and UK TT crowd would on little rings, rather than the massive dinner plates they are currently riding.,

Shut it!

Does anyone know if this will work with my 9100 crank set? 12 speed means thinner chain, no? I'm looking forward to the TT version of this.

The width difference between a 10 and 11 spd chain is 0.5mm while the difference between a Shimanos 11 and 12 spd MTB chains is 0.2mm.

In my experience the tolerances on chains and chain rings didn’t cause an issue using ‘10 spd’ cranks with an 11 spd chain. A chain has to do a lot of bending to allow for the full range of I gears so you want the chain rings to be narrower than the chain. I expect the same is true of 11 to 12 speed given the small difference in chain width.

What I have no idea about is whether Shimano will have updated the ramp profile on the rings to improve shifting for the smaller chain. All the spy shots seem to include preproduction cranks making it hard to know if major changes are intended for the cranks.

I suspect something is a foot with power meters given what Shimano just did to Pioneer. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a substantial altered crank for 12 spd which better integrates an accurate power meter. Shimano doesn’t want that in the public eye yet though and has given riders alternatives for testing.

What’s the purpose of Microspline other than to accommodate a 10t cog?

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Microspline cassettes will cause people to buy new wheels.

Am I the only one that doesn't care about it being wireless? Please, give me wires. The few grams are not going to kill anyone, you get better battery life, and they just work.

And will we see 12 sp mechanical?

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This is the best thing ever cleaning up the front end getting from bars into the frame with no junctions or cables.

Many people seem to be running (and preferring) Shimano's 12sp chain on R9100. Reported to lasts longer (I think according to frictionfacts) and is much quieter (first hand reports in forums). So unless shimano comes out with a road specific chain that is different, it should work just fine.

Except you still have brake cables/hoses.

Yes I'm aware of that.

What garry p said...

Probably not the only one. But you have to admit that the front half of Di2 as it currently exists is a bit of a fluster cluck of wires, junctions, and modules. It may very well still be for tri bikes, especially if you want shifters at both hands positions. But for a standard road bike, a wireless front end would be eminently easier for installers, be they home mechanics retrofitting, or oems building bikes in volume.

SRAM eTap road shifters supposedly get 2 years or so out of a CR2032 disposable battery. A spare costs ~$1.00, weighs ~3 grams, and takes up roughly the same space in your flat kit as a quarter coin. That’s a very small compromise for the ease of install and servicing.

It’s the derailleur batteries with eTap that require a bigger compromise from the end user compared to Di2. Managing the charge level of two batteries with much less capacity can be more of a chore. Using eTap-like wireless brifters and a bigger battery like Di2 has for the derailleurs seems like using the best of both systems. Yes, you still have to run some internal wires in the frame. Depending how they do it, it could still be quite simple; no more complicated than cabling a mechanical shift bike with internal routing.

Check out videos 1 and 4 of the FSA K-Force WE installation tutorial. This is a hybrid system with wireless brifters and a common battery for the derailleurs.

https://www.fullspeedahead.com/...eld_type_value=video

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I am happy with semi-wireless as long as the shift speed stays the same, I have sram force on my gravel rig and ult di2 on my road bike and the difference in shift speed is small but obvious between the two.

I have Sram red etap on my road bike, Shimano Dura Ace DI2 on my tri bike, GRX DI2 on my gravel and I prefer the Sram rear myself. Sram front derailleurs have always been a POS in compared to Shimano since forever.

Someone on weight weenies posted a picture of the new Di2 wires, they use a different connector. More evidence of significant changes group to group and lack of interchangeability. While in theory the old system should be able to be programmed for a different cog I personally think the likelihood that Shimano will do that is low. Maybe someone will be able to hack the shifters or there will be an adapter for the new wiring but I'd be very surprised if cross-generation compatibility is officially approved and the only things you can carry over without a hack are crank arms and brake calipers.

On the other hand, rumors are that you will be able to use existing freehubs and wheels, that 12 speed Ultegra cassettes will use existing freehubs and only 12 speed D/A cassettes will need a microspline freehub. At least, that's the rumor...

I really hope that this time give us a 16-tooth ring in an 11-28 cassette.

When they went from 10 to 11 speed, I figured they'd finally would correct the one annoyance of a 10-speed 11-27: the lack of that 16 tooth ring. I cannot tell you how many times I've found myself shifting up and down looking for the right gear because it jumps from 15 to 17.

I figured, with 11-speed, they'd just add a 16-tooth ring in there, right? Nope. They changed it to 11-28 and still left out the 16. Grrr...

1000 times, yes!

1,001 times, yes!

Apparently you didn't read a few posts past that I'm the dame thread. No need to hack. There is an adapter made by Shimano that convert new connector to old. Already has a part number listed. It suggests planned interchangeability.

So this suggests that you’ll need new front and rear mechs instead of making them 12 speed with a firmware update. This also implies that you’ll be able to use the existing brake levers with the new calipers. Now I wonder how much of an update the calipers and rotors got. As the leak didn’t show the calipers at all and they appear to be using the xtr rotors

Sram 11-26 is the best 11 speed cassette there is for that reason IMO and on all my wheels until I go too big on the climbs... Now if the spacings are the same as Sram then you could always keep your old wheels regardless of what happens with the freehub and use a ZTTO cassette at a fraction of the cost and have your beloved 16.

https://www.aliexpress.com/...02_,searchweb201603_

I’m with you, I can care less about wireless. Have no issues with wires, route and forget.

Unless they have changed the chainline (like with GRX), hopefully upgrading to 12sp won't require a new FD. If it was just a case of replacing the RD (and cassette and chain obviously) and plugging it into the existing wiring with an adaptor(keeping the existing internal battery and shifters - with a firmware update to those), that would be awesome.

I've explored the alternatives. 11-26 doesn't cut it. I need 27 or 28. I've purchased 3rd party brands. They get the job done, but what I want is true Dura-Ace.

Could you imagine a 12-32 with a 16t cog in there?! Sounds like the perfect all around cassette to me but then again I just put on a 58/44 chainring combo for a few crits at ToAD so what do I know?

I had the SRAM 11-26 and the jumps were great but needed more range for where I live. Now I use the Rotor Uno cassette. All of them have the 16t: 11-28, 11-30, and 11-32. The 11-28 even has a 17t after the 16t.

The big cogs are for bailout. The bigger the jumps at that end, the better. I would rather have 1t jumps up to 17t or 18t. That's why I like Uno gearing. The 17t is what I miss the most but can't give up 30t+.

I've also considered building a DA 12-30:
12,13,14,15 16,17,19,21,24,27,30

I built exactly that cassette with once. Miche Shimano or some such company that let you customize the rings. It worked great. Weighed a ton.

I've done the install for both etap and Di2 on road bikes.

For di2, its one wire from each brake lever to a junction box, and a wire from that box down through the frame. Connects to a box at the BB, and three wires from that to the derailleurs and battery. Its pretty f'ing simple, and any mechanic, home or professional, that considers that a 'fluster cluck' is honestly pretty inept. Its easy as it gets, its once and done, and no worries about wireless signals or short battery life/charge.

I'm with you in hating the 15->17 gap. And while you can't get an 11-28 Dura Ace cassette with the proper 15-16-17 sequencing, you don't have to go "3rd Party." SRAM's 11-28 11-speeds have the 16T cog.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Oh Brilliant. How did I not know that? Thank you for pointing this out.

I tried a side-by-side comparison of the two setups using Sheldon Brown's gear calculator. Looks like I'm basically moving the big jump from the 15-to-17 gap to the 19-to-22 gap, two gaps down the line. I have a feeling that would be a much better place to have the big jump. Towards that end of the cassette, I find I want bigger jumps. Has this been your experience?

I personally would rather see the last 4 cogs be 19-21-24-28. But the 19->22 is a lot easier to live with than the 17->19, IMHO.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I would also like to see a 12-23 cassette all with 1 cog increases for the flat time trials.
No chance of searching for the right gear. The TT though is probably unlikely to get such a cassette and who the hell knows when we will even see the group set available on a triathlon bike.
The stock for any covid rig is near impossible to find.

Wiring is not that hard, but the look is kind of "fluster cluck", unless you are using the bar-end junction which also has its own requirements and limitations. If you are using the normal 3/5-port junction A, for normal road bike, there just isn't a good place for it (underneath the stem is where most people have it), and the wires coming out of it (assuming 3) are just not pretty and hard to have a clean look.

Personally, making the shifters wireless shifting is a no brainer upgrade I would love to have in the new Di2.

The Tour has now come and gone without a launch event. I previously bet on a launch at the Olympics so the event would be in Japan but I would have expected more leaks if they were ready for that. What is the general feeling about a release? Is this is product ready to be sold on bikes in Spring 2022 and Shimano is just delaying the launch? or is Shimano entering an additional testing phase and we will see leaks over the next 12 months but nothing for consumers until Spring 2023?

Some 2022 bikes are listed for orders with 12sp Di2 already. Should start fall/winter 2021 delivery. But lord knows how long we'll have to wait until we can buy groupsets separately

So, now that we're digressing: I was reading the dealer manual for Shimano cassettes, and based on the shift ramps, it looked like you could take a 12-25 Ultegra and 11-28 or -30 Ultegra cassette and mash them up together. That is, the resulting 12-28 or 12-30 cassette should have the shift ramps line up correctly, e.g. the 17t cog has the proper ramp number to have a good shift to the 19t cog. I'm talking about the letter codes at the end of each of the cogs in the manual.

I tried this with a 12-25 Ultegra and 11-28 105 cassette. Now, here's where things fell apart. I kept having a poor shift from 17-19 (I think it was that one, and if not it was 19-21). I checked the cassettes again. It turns out that the 105 cassette has different ramp codes than what the dealer manual for DA and Ultegra cassettes said. I'd assumed they'd be the same, bad assumption. I think I checked the manuals for the 105 cogs' ramp codes after that incident, but I can't exactly remember what I found. I remember noting to myself that it seemed like Shimano might have made an undocumented change, but I'm not 100% sure about this.

I can tell you that the 17-19 shift was kind of not great. It would fail to shift sometimes. You can correct it by overshifting. It's definitely not the stock Shimano shift quality. I'm fussy, so I just put the full 11-28 cassette on. And yes, I hate the 15-17 gap in relatively flat terrain. And secondarily, where I ride, the last 3 cogs on the 11-30 cassettes are a bit big for me. If I were in hillier territory, I'd be much more willing to accept big gaps. As it is, I'm thinking that if I upgrade my bike to 12s, I'm ditching the 52-36 crank and going with the 50-34. It seems like they're pushing us mortals that way. It is what it is.

I do have to note, people could go Campy (in my case, back to Campy). The 12s Chorus 11-29 and 11-32 cassettes have 16t cogs. The 11s Centaur group has a 12-32 cassette. In my case, the bike has rim brakes and mechanical shifting, and I bet that Campy will be the last manufacturer to have a mechanical rim brake group, so... the thing is that it's a steel bike and I think their carbon cranks look not as good on it as Shimano's cranks, but maybe I just live with it at that point.

I bought a 11-30 DA cassette and the necesary separate cogs from the 12-28 to build a 12-30 because I made the same assumptions as you. With the 17C cog which I assumed would match the 16t and 19t, the 17-19 shifting was consistantly poor. Switched back to the 17B, which fixes the 17-19 shift but isn't as good at 16-17. However, the poor shifts are far less frequent that way. Still somewhat regular, but not nearly as often as the 17-19 shifts with the 17C.

Only ridden with it twice, but I'm torn whether I should keep it (some missed shifts but better gearing), just make it 11-30 (lose the 16t), or even go back to Rotor (bit noisier than the DA).

I would honestly love the Campy 11-34 with 50-34 chain ring. Small jumps where I spend most of my time and 1:1 gearing for all the 10-15% climbs in between. But switching groupsets is a big investment

New DA will come out before September 22nd and that is conservative as the digital version of Tour Magazin gets published several days earlier…

https://road.shimano.com/us/the-next-episode/

August 31 12pm EDT

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blog

No pictures here, but cassette ratios series number and some configurations
https://www.serviziocorsa.com/Flyer_ROAD_2022.pdf

Rear derailleur manual
https://bettershifting.com/...ur-manual-published/

I'm happy to see they went with a proprietary charging cable rather than USB-C or something.

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Out of all the ways to title this, Shimano called it "The Next Episode".

As someone who grew up in the late 90's and early aughts, all I can think of when I see "The Next Episode" is the slogan "Smoke Weed Everyday"

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Jest aside, it seems like the semi-wireless functionality will be specific to the 12-speed rear derailleur. Looks like my current frame will need a retrofit after all (there's no way I'm going up to 12-speed).

Thought the same thing

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blog

A bit pricey...

https://www.msn.com/...TU#image=AANW3ZO%7C5

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blog

Link doesn’t work for me. Cranks look better than the previous generation. Interesting that the shifters have a larger ‘hood’ portion that doesn’t move - kind of like the grx in a way.

I think I’d be more excited if they announced they could increase production of bike group sets to meet demand so there would actually be bikes in stock…

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Matt

Also, I wonder if the brake calipers/pads have more clearance. That is my biggest beef with disc brakes. At least the ultegra calipers have such tight clearances it’s take more time than I’d like to get them to not rub. Which can make swapping wheelsets a bit more time consuming as well. Tririg and speed concept brakes spoiled me with their easy adjustments

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Matt

I'm sure the disc braking is improved and the slimmed down derailleurs look pretty nice. Overall, doesn't look as if it will be much better/different than current gen stuff.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...p_Upgrades_8058.html

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blog

thank you for noticing ;-)

i have been on the dura ace 9200 group for a month, and have spent a lot of time with this and the ultegra 8100 groupset. fire away with any questions and i'm happy to do my best to answer.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Looks like the pm won't be available until early 2022.

A few questions:

- Will the TT front end setup still include a 5 port junction? Are the TT components any different than prior version? I haven't been able to find any pics so far.
- I see the 12 speed cassette's are backwards compatible to existing 11 speed free hubs. Will 9100/8100 get a firmware update to be 12 speed capable?

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blog

~$4,200!!!! For 9250/70… I should have been a dentist.

Setting aside DA the price of Ultegra is actually better than I expected. Many bike companies are likely to continue to forgo the Shimano cranksets, cassettes and chains on OEM specs and that leaves a competitive build option for wireless shifting.

More interesting in my mind is that Shimano has thrown the door wide open for it finally taking 105 electronic at a competitive price point. The new battery and shifter technology has been designed to still support wired connections. All they have to do it remove the wireless chipset from the brifters as well as the fancy servo-wave braking and boom they have a ready made 105 electronic groupset with a clear distinction to the Ultegra and DA options. With a budget friendly crankset and cassette you are entering the realm of current mechanical Ultegra. It is then just a matter of time before a wireless chip is added to a TT brake lever option and you have an entry level electronic system i.e. 105 mechs plugged into the battery which is paired wirelessly to the wireless supported brake levers which are wired to clics at the bar ends.

Allow me a moment of silence for the end of high end Shimano mechanical shifting.

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Suffer Well.

I'm so happy that the cassettes will fit the 'old' Shimano freehubs. The move to SRAM 12 speed is going to be less painful when I can grab a few of the Shimano cassettes for my trainer and CX wheels. $112 USD instead of a new freehub and AXS cassette will save a ton of money.

I think a lot of people are going to be happy with the brake updates as well. There really wasn't much clearance in those calipers and I personally thought the previous caliper bleed 'solution' was a pain.

here's how the routing works.

- there's a wire from each of the pursuit shifters, and these wires meet each other in the pursuit bar somewhere, and they join with a coupling that has 2 intake ports (1 for each pursuit wire), and 1 port from which a single wire emerges. it's not a junction box. it's just a coupling.

- there is a junction box. it's got 4 ports. 3 of those ports are intake ports, and into them get plugged the wires from the left and right bar-end shifters, and that wire that comes from the pursuit coupling described above. the final of the 4 ports is the wire that leads to the rest of the system.

- from there, i'm not 100 percent sure what happens, because the ONLY wires in the rear of the system are from the RD to the battery, and from the battery to the FD. so, where does this wire go, that comes from the front of the bike? i'll find out.

- i do not see that any new TT shift products have launched.

- i do not believe that 9150 and 8050 components are backward compatible to 12sp.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Not entirely clear, have you been on the mechanical ultegra 12s group?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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you will want to read my companion piece published just a few minutes ago.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

what mechanic group is that?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Is there a non electronic (new) Shimano ultegra 12 speed group ?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Why would I want salt on that fresh wound?

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Suffer Well.

not that i know of.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, I am seeing that the chain and disc rotors are shared with XT 8170 and that the cassettes are compatible. I know Shimano just started with GRX but is there any sense that they are trying to merge the streams of mountain, gravel, and road? The chain, rotor, cassette, possibly chainring, hydro calipers, battery, are all nearly or completely identical. It comes down to the RD and the cockpit where differences reside. Bigger gear ranges could see people actually adopt 1x more widely on road, leading to a clutched RD there.
This would be a huge positive for Shimano and consumers as it streamlines manufacturing and distribution and simplifies a lot of service. And with both electronics hardware and firmware involved, trimming down variants also saves money, testing, and support.
Might seem crazy but I could see a singular system with choices on cassette range/chainring size, # of brake pistons and rotor size, and of course cockpit type. Everything else is the "core" of the system.
Thoughts?

i write about this in my article on this launch on the front page. other than the obvious move from 11sp to 12sp, the overarching theme is the impression of offroad components and tech onto road. and, really, the move from 11sp to 12sp is part of that as well.

the MTB rotors were better, and shimano couldn't make a road rotor as good. and so it goes. just as shimano streams its DA tech down to ultegra, shimano has streamed its XTR tech to DA. so far, shimano has kept its groupsets distinct: road versus gravel versus MTB. SRAM has chosen a different approach, which is to just make parts, and the use case is up to the OE or the end user. i think shimano is trending, in product design, toward what SRAM has chosen to do.

the one area where i think SRAM has gotten itself into a cul de sac is on chains. really, the chain determines a lot with SRAM, if you use an eagle chain, the drivetrain is MTB. if you use a flat top chain, the drivetrain is road. SRAM could make things easier on itself if it just had 1 chain. but i don't know enough about SRAM's product design and engineering to know if and whether that's possible.

so, i think what's very clear with both SRAM and shimano is that offroad is driving road, gravel is driving road, and i think part of that is because of gearing: what has been true for the entire history of road cycling, including the past 20 or 30 years, is that every time you offer a lower gear option to road cyclists they take it. offroad and gravel introduced lower gears, and road riders said, "i want those."

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So 11 speed cranks/rings aren't compatible with the new 12speed system?

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blog

Do you have any idea on the backward compatibility? For example, does the new disc brake calipers work with previous gen shifters, or previous gen shifters working with the new rear derailleurs?

No and No

https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com/

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blog

+1 on this question. I have a power2max rotor 3D+ with Praxis 11 speed rings, it would be great if I could keep that as is and just swap chains.

This really won't affect me probably but in reading about the new groups...why on earth are the rim brake options still fully wired??!

I'm guessing the obvious answer is that they don't want people to buy rim brakes anymore so it's an incentive to go disc if you're on the fence.

But it seems like an unnecessary middle finger from Shimano, sorta. They could have done it fully wireless, but chose not to. If they wanted people to buy disc, make it disc only.

Also, I don't care if XTR rotors perform better...The now older DA and ultegra rotors make a bike look way freaking better.

You're sure the cassette stack and cog spacing are the same between SRAM 12 and Shimano 12?

Shimano 12 speed road and 12 speed MTB use the same 'cog spacing' and Shimano 12 speed road is the same chain as the Shimano 12 speed MTB stuff. I know the Shimano 12 speed MTB stuff is cross compatible (enough) with SRAM 12 speed. Thus, I'm making the assumption it will work well enough for my needs.

I think it's because they basically took the old rim brake levers and retrofitted the new etube wiring to them. I.e. they did not do any new development there. Adding wireless would have required redesigning the levers and they didn't think it was worth it.

i have not put a SRAM wheel in this bike. yet. but i intend to. this will cause shimano folks to repeatedly bang their heads on the table, but this is a question that is going to get repeatedly asked, so, i will test this just to see how things work. the one and, really, only one reason i can think to do this is to get a 10t cog, and perhaps just SRAM's much wider available gearing, onto a dura ace 12sp bike. remember, these new bikes only allow for a 34t cog, so, if you put, say, a 10-36 on there you're technically exceeding shimano's capacity for this group.

beyond that, if you can put a shimano body driver on a hub, you can ride said wheel with these groupsets.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So for a TT bike, the only thing that really changes is 12 speed. But existing tt shifters can be re-used with a new adaptor.

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I'm tracking 100%. Like many others, I'm mostly interested in gravelish implications. There's also a few other things to worry about (swapping in a non-SRAM cassette) like the flat top chain (I would be coming from AXS XPLR), the pulleys in the RD, etc. with the weird new shape of the chain specific to all of the non-Eagle AXS stuff. I have a few extra wheels for cyclocross where a 10 cog would be superfluous and I don't care what's on my trainer. I would probably leave the 11 speed cassette on if it work well enough in the few gears I switch between in ERG mode. If an 11-34 cassette managed to work as-is in the AXS XPLR drivetrain, I would be pretty happy though. The Rival AXS cassette and XDR freehub for my wheels are all over $200 and the Force cassettes add another $60 to that. That really adds up over a handful of wheelsets.

I'm still wrapping my head around what internet strangers experience mixing in campy or eagle chains within the AXS stuff. After years of experimenting, there's a lot more cross compatibility than intended. I look forward to hearing more of your experience.

I'm missing something; what is the difference between an MTB brake rotor and a road rotor? They are both round flat steel disks mounted to the hub that the calipers rub on. Admittedly the usage is different between a road brake and a mtb brake, but not that different.

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salmon - not because I'm a fish

So for TT, you still need to run wires to a junction box in the front end?

In true shimano fashion it's an all or nothing upgrade to sell you more parts and make the last generation obsolete. They tweaked the wire size and locked up the firmware so you can't use those last gen di2 shifters and brakes with just a new set of derailleurs, chain, and cassette if you want to upgrade from 11s to 12s. This is significant because you'll have to dole out an additional $1700 for those shift levers. I can see people buying new bikes with this already equipped but who's going to throw away their all of their 11 speed components and spend $4500 to add a gear and slightly better shifting/braking performance?! Disappointed but not surprised.

nothing. no difference. shimano found they could not build a road rotor that exceeded the utility of the MTB rotor. so, it's the MTB rotor. in my writeup on these groupsets my bird's eye view take on these groupsets is that shimano just kept finding that it's offroad components or tech were better for road than what they were making for road, so they largely repurposed offroad tech for road. they did that for brakes, for cassettes, chain rings, and so on. i think handlebar companies have been doing the same thing (repurposing gravel bar ideas toward road bars); and wheel companies, purposing MTB and gravel tech toward road, with tubless, hookless, and wide inner bead distances.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Surprised the short crank lovers here aren't frothing over the new 160mm options.

Also on the cranks, surprised Shimano hasn't appeared to have changed from the hollowtech bonded ready-to-debond-at-a-moments-notice design..

Nitpick - 50 was for Di2 and 20 was for hydraulic. (eg mechanical shift, hydraulic brake shifters were 9120)

Add them together and you get 70...

i'll buy that reasoning. sounds plausible and historically defensible. but there are some hiccups to that. the new brake caliper is BR-9270. that ought to just be BR-9220 using your reasoning. same thing wiith the new Dura Ace wheels released today (my story on these upcoming). a sample model name is WH-R9270-C36-TL. as you may guess, this is a tubeless C36 built for hydraulic brakes. even if you argue that the brake calipers above are sorta kinda part of an electronic shift system, you can't really argue this for the wheels. all the new disc brake wheels are 9270.

here's a real weird one for you. as i mentioned in the writeup, there is a rim brake option in this groupset. as i understand it, the rim brake caliper has as part of its model name 9250. how did that happen?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

For those of us on rim brake bikes that may want to upgrade? Although I'm not sure about the spacing on the hub to facilitate that.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Well they still seem to be using plenty of 50s and 70s in the parts numbering, I guess the lack of 20s indicates the death of mechanical? Or maybe they just used 70 on parts that are compatible with Di2, such as brakes and wheels?

that's the point i'm making, i think. 70 is hydraulic, 50 is electronic, and if it's a hydraulic part that has no real attachment to electronic, it's still 70 (not 20). mind, this has changed some over the years. it used to be 70 was electronic, way back in the beginning of electronic shifting. but that got changed in maybe 2012 or so, i don't know, in any case it's not that way now.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If that is true, that is very unfortunate.

I can see the idea of no dura ace mechanical, but for ultegra as well? That seems to be a very poor decision.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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So with the TT shifter adapter the existing 9100/8000 shifters should work with the 12 speed drive train too then?

Correct

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Yes.

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Great now I just need to figure out if the calipers will work with 8000/9100, then I can get a slightly cheaper upgrade to 12 speed and keep the normal reach hoods.

However I will gain 70g with the cassette…. Shimano cassettes are just so heavy

Why didn't Shimano get ahead of the curve and just bring out a 13 speed groupset? You know this is going to go in the same direction as men's shavers-just when you thought 3 blades was rediculous they went up to 6 blades...

Hey Dan,

I’m seeing some conflicting information on shimano’s website. Are ST-R9180 compatible with BR-R9270 calipers? Shimanos compatibility matrix says no but the the lineup chart shows they are.

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Which lineup chart says they are?

i suspect they are. shimano shows that the in-line TT/tri levers/shifters are compatible with 9200, and the only caliper in that groupset is the 9270. i think you're fine. same with the new ultegra calipers.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Shimano rotors have an aluminum core and cooling fins.

Would we think the old road style shifters are compatible too then?

Here's an awesome podcast with all the details and myth dispelling spouted by some...


https://podcasts.apple.com/...4247?i=1000533901801


Shimano Road Brand Manager Nick Legan and Road and Gravel Product Manager Dave Lawrence join the Marginal Gains crew to dig into what the what the new road groupsets are, how they're different


This was a great listen and really shows a LOT of thought by Shimano.

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Kiwami Racing Team

https://productinfo.shimano.com/...ce_r9250/2x12_tt_tri

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10% greater clearance

Sram chain has different dimensions (roller size and maybe other dimensions too). It's not compatible with Shimano 12sp parts.

They should be. People have been running 12sp chains on their otherwise 11sp Shimano setup with great results: longer wearing and quieter.

Mostly correct on the first part. I have seen non-Flattop chains running just fine in AXS systems and I would use a separate chain if using a completely different sized cassette. The roller size has a larger diameter on the AXS Flattop rollers. No other differences in spacing and such. The AXS road chainrings are supposedly made for the bigger rollers, but since the rest is the same, the slightly smaller rollers of the Eagle chain fit just fine. I could see less chain engagement on the AXS cassette, but the premise is using a different cassette and likely a different chain.

You sure about that? I've read elsewhere the firmware update only allows TT shifters to work with 12 speed, not any other shifters.

I was referring the TT shifters but maybe I misunderstood the question. If we are talking road shifters, I'm not sure. The compatibility chart says "no" technically, but I would be surprised if you couldn't run 9100/8000 road shifters with the conversion adapter. If it works for the TT shifters, I don't see why it wouldn't work for road shifters. Obviously, the road shifters would have to be wired in this scenario.

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105 shifts great. Not a joke. It's world-beating.

The big thing is that it's unwise to assume that the easy thing will be done when there's a financial incentive not to do it. One used to be able to pair a 6770 FD (10-speed) with a 6870 RD (11-speed). Shimano killed that with a firmware update.

OTOH, Shimano has always allowed one to use 6770 shifters to shift 11-speed FD and RD (and vice versa), so there's some hope, but it's not cut-and-dry the way you describe. Until one actually gets his/her hands on the parts and test it out, it's no more than a guess.


Until it eats your cable.

Also, 105 shifters are effing ginormous. I swear my wife enjoys riding her bike more simply because we upgraded to the more svelte 8070 Di2 shifters.

in response to the 1x possibilities:

- Does this crankset have a 1x option? I'm not seeing it.
- I have a really hard time imagining 1x with a 11t smallest cog.


I'm on a 50x10-33 on my TT bike and I squeak by on steep uphills and spin out on steep downhills. I still prefer it to 2x. I could see myself
On my road bike, I ride 46x9-39 and in an idea world, I'd have Ekar 13s for 47x9-42. , or just toss on an XPLR 10-44 cassette with a 52t chainring...

I'd need a 58t chainring for an 11s rear cog and a 36t rear cog just wouldn't cut it. Would need a 39. So, I guess I'm just not seeing a real 1x Di2 option. Seems Shimano will stick to 2x for road in the same way they stick with their 24mm bb spindle.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

this is a 2x groupset only. bear in mind that this groupset does not feature a clutch or damper RD. so, even if they did offer a 1x crank, and gearing you like, the RD is still not equipped to work in a 1x system.

now, for gravel, what we'd look for is an update to the XTR Di2 RD-M9050. once that RD updates to 12sp we can have something from shimano like SRAM's mullet.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dura-ace eats cables as much as any of the others. my rear shift cables never make it a year without breaking in the shifter. which reminds me, I need to switch mine out soon again as shifting is no longer crisp, again.

This just means that you should ignore weightweenies and use a proper sized pie plate. I have successfully raced a 58-44 Rotor chain set and a PCD 60t 1x. Depending on the course without any issues.

There’s not going to be any TT shifters released anytime soon. Users will have to update their current with a firmware update coming in the future. And of course only wired.
I’m on board, update the rear, new standard chainrings are 54/40. Go with an 11/34 or 11/30 cassette depending on where I’m at.
My only current concern is Power, I’m exclusively on SRM across everything so have to see what changes if any happen there.
Great listen on The Marginal Gains Podcast about the new Dura Ace and Ultegra.

I'm a bit underwhelmed with the entire release, especially for a tt/tri bike. Still having to wiring everything puts me over the edge but I do like the 54/40 option. Just due to the wiring, I'm leaning towards a SRAM 1x setup on my next bike after being a shimano guy for the last 10 years. Plus I don't really need 2x for where I ride.

I've got 2 SRM DA 9000's right now but I'm ready to move on from them as SRM service is behind the times. I do think the shimano PM will be much better than it was but not so sure how it will stack up against others like quarq, p2m, favero, etc.

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Yikes! What kind of shifting habits cause regular failure of shift cables?! I feel for you...

My rough use case is using130-spaced wheels and rim braking with a 12-speed drivetrain, since SRAM no longer supports 11-speed Etap.

I'm not sure Shimano 12 speed will give you what you're looking for. Shimano themselves said the updated rim brakes would be "tough to find." and others inferred it was only for pro/sponsored riders. None of the reviews I have read had the new rim brakes or mechanical brake levers. SRAM 12 speed AXS has rim brake options available. Campy 12 speed is the only mechanical shifting, rim brake option I'm aware of.

To clarify: Shimano 12-speed cassette/HG freehub with an otherwise SRAM 12 drivetrain.

20,000 mile+ per year dude here. My DA cables never made more than 5k miles before breaking in the shifter.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

On the silca podcast the shimano guys say that the TT handles from the 9100 series will work with the new 9200 series, wired.

So that leaves the question, What needs to be upgraded?

Will the 9100 Crankset work?
Will i need a new battery and wires?
Will the new calippers support the TT handles?
And of course i will need new front/rear derailleur and casette

20K miles, I get (and is very impressive). 5k miles still surprises me.

The TT parts Will probably be released a little later, But if anything is as it usually is, it’ll be a year until you Can actually get the parts

It might work in the short term.

If the rollers are bigger, that increases chain wrap radius (the chain is further from the cassettes center), which in turn shortens the distance between rollers relative to the sprocket teeth. So the roller will have to slide from one side (just slightly off center) of the sprocket recess to the other during each revolution.

When everything is new, this might be mostly fine. But it will create uneven wear on the cassette, accelerate wear on the chain, and increase friction.

As said above "I could see less chain engagement on the AXS cassette, but the premise is using a different cassette and likely a different chain."

Then you're just moving the same issue to the AXS chain ring

Maybe. People seem to be using non-Flattop chains in road AXS setups without any obvious problems. Garbaruk makes a 107 BCD chainring (for AXS) that they say works fine with any chain as well. I'm all for experimenting and finding out what works. It's been years of being told that things aren't compatible when they really are in practice.

I have to say I agree with you on the service lately. I sent one in and after 3 weeks sitting on a self they sent it to my old address in Texas from 2012, was a nightmare getting it back, actually chalked it up as a loss but 10 days later was at my door in NC. Sent another in and had it back in a week so go figure. I think when the new Shimano Power system comes out, I'm going to give that a try. I like the look and ratio options of the new DA9200 cranks.

Yep, time to change cables when they are no longer feeling crisp. Way easier to change out an intact cable, than performing surgery on your shifters trying to retrieve tiny wires that have broken off the main cable.

Waiting until the cable breaks is a mistake you only make once.....

This release is a huge let down for me. Ive read many release articles and listened to the marginal gains interview.

Semi wireless (with the capability to still be fully wired...) is not really that game changing. They just repackaged XTR chains and rotors as dura ace, nothing new or exciting there and the rotors look worse than old. For TT and tri bikes, no new remote shifter options, you have to do a firmware update to older parts and run the system fully wired?? Really?

I ride Shimano. Massive respect for the brand and what they do for cycling, but I just feel like they missed the mark here.

The only possible update the rim brakes might be getting is a different finish to match the aesthetics of the 9200 components. The 9100 brakes will do just fine.

All you'll need to hunt for will be the 9250 shift levers for rim brakes.

Why would the corresponding levers be any easier to find than the brakes?

I didn't suggest that they would be. 9100 rim brake calipers are pretty easy to get now so there'd be no need to hunt for 9200 calipers unless you have to have matching finishes.

Yep, I'm using a AXS flat top chain (Force AXS group) on a supposedly 11sp NW chainring - some non-brand / chinese thing I bought on Amazon - and it runs flawlessly.
I would also be very keen to try a 11-34 Shimano 12sp cassette on my gravel bike and IDT where I don't need a 10 cog and save me having to get XDR drivers. Figure I could use that with a 12sp eagle or shimano chain and my Amazon chainring... will update if I ever get there.

Is the chain line the same between AXS and new 12spd Shimano? For some reason I thought SRAM fiddled with the chain line on AXS to adjust the system to try and better hit the sweet spot with both 1x and 2x.