Based on what I've read, it seems that valid alternative are:
- Asics Metaracer for 5k or less (maybe up to 10k)
- Saucony Endorphin Pro for Marathon and Half Marathon

Yup Ive heard good things about the Metaracer

Just saw some over at running warehouse pretty sure they had men's and women's 9s available

Check out NB Tempo.

Saucony Endorphin Pro has been very popular. Speed as well.

I would say that for a lot of triathletes who arent dropping super fast running times a shoe like the nike may not be the best for them as at slower paces it feels awkward (ive heard the line is drawn somewhere around 7-7:30 min/mile). The Saucony shoes have reportedly not had this kind of awkward feeling

If I were to get a carbon shoe right now it would either be the Next% or the Endorphin Pro.

They’re in stock on Nike.com

https://www.nike.com/...oe-ZLHGgf/DD8337-400

Saucony Endorphin Pro

I will also put a vote in for the Endorphin Speed and Endorphin Pro. I also bought a pair of the Endorphin Shift which are great 'Hoka like' long run shoes. All in all I am quite pleased.

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IG: NCGregory8778

Apparently the Adidas Adios Pro are amazing, but they're even harder to get than Nikes.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

I'm sold on the entire Endorphin line. They just disappear on your foot once you put them on and are an absolute joy to run in. Compared to the Nike's, which always remind you of their presence because the fit is a little awkward, ground contact is loud, and they are bulky. With that said, after 2+ hours of running, my legs do feel subjectively less fatigued in the Nike's even though I much prefer to run in the Endorphin Speed/Pro.

Brooks Hyperion Elite 2 - Nice and stable for when things get wishy washy at the end of a 4+ hr race yet fast and springy.

Another vote for the Endorphin Pro from Saucony. Much better durability and a bit more connection with the ground yet firm cushioning. As someone said, the entire Endorphin line is simply amazing.

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Kiwami Racing Team

I've got a pair in stock.
Not sure why everyone is hitting up ebay when your LRS will have a better shot at ordering the shoe for you.

go here: http://runningshopaz.com/ use our shoe order form. we'll call you to get payment and ship it out.

I'm probably going to mosey in around 3 (AZ time) this afternoon and see how everything is going. If you want to wait until after that, just call, ask for me, and I'll set everything up for you.

There is no way to say for certain that shoe A is going to be faster or slower than Shoe B for you. I've seen several N=1 lab experiences where the Nikes were faster and then the Saucony's were faster for others.

My advice is don't go chasing a shoe just because. Choose a super shoe based on fit, how it feels, how it works with your feet/running style. Can't tell you the # of people that bought super shoe A and hated it yet loves Super shoe B and ran better in B, even though A is supposed to be the fastest

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Speaking of super shoes, are there any made in the EEEE width? I have wide (hobit feet as my wife calls them) feet and need extra wide shoes.

NB FuelCell RC Elite. I don't know why this shoe doesn't get much hype in conversations like these... it's a close second to Nike (Next% or AlphaFly) for me, I prefer if over the Saucony Endorphin line (haven't tried the others). FuelCell is just such a fun midsole and based on reviews the upcoming Rebel v2 is going to be a huge hit.

Not that I'm aware of.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

There are plenty other options out there now and even more this year. Just don't tell Synthetic that, he'll deride you for not wearing your arbitrarily picked year of 1990 models of shoes that somehow are not "technological doping" from 1970s shoes.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

hadukla wrote:

There are plenty other options out there now and even more this year. Just don't tell Synthetic that, he'll deride you for not wearing your arbitrarily picked year of 1990 models of shoes that somehow are not "technological doping" from 1970s shoes.

2017 was the year the era of mechanical doping began.

here is hadukla's latest shoe purchase:

https://nordicgrizzly.com/product/2-in-1-adult-children-inline-skates-jump-fitness-exercise-shoes-adjus-2/

Just get it!

Saucony Endorphin speed (favored by more) OR Endorphine pro (CF plate).

They are fun, fast, and look great! I can't say if they are every bit the equal of Nike's fastest (some claims they are) but you can't go wrong with this one if it fits your feet. (Saucony also is known for having wider toeboxes - I have to wear wide in nearly every other shoe brand especially Hoka and Nike, but Saucony regular is perfect for me.)

There aren't, I normally wear a 11.5 EE in most shoes. I ended up trying on the Hoka Carbon X (first generation) and with a thin enough sock it's perfectly fine. Now with a 4E, it probably won't work, but thought i'd throw it out there, also don't think most consider the Carbon X a "super shoe", so I guess i'm pretty much zero help to you :)

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USAT Level 1 Coach
Team Next Level
http://goteamnltri.com/

Actually I'm a classic purist, I use the 1990s Big Time Toys Moon Shoes

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Another vote for the Saucony Endorphin Pro's, they work better for me than Nike's., better stability.

Appreciate the replies everyone. Guess I should have looked harder for the Nike's on their website! As the recommendations are likely close in terms of speed, sounds like it'd be best to trial

- Next%

- Endorphin Pro

- RC Elite

then decide based on desert dude's advice. Now, I do not have the budget to blow $750 on running shoes at the moment so based on the return policies of each I'll have to settle for doing a few runs in the Next%, send back if the fit is off and move on to trying the Endorphin's + Elite's (could probably order them to my local fleet feet and choose there) I have until late May to get this settled so not in a huge rush

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Dominic Pollizzi

I guess a question I have is which one is best for running efficiency and is easy to put on in T2? I have the Adizero Pro and would take forever getting them on compared to my Boston’s because of the flimsy tongue and flexible heel.

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Team Zoot

nike vaporfly flyknit are the best i know of from that perspective - tongue is part of the upper so with elastic laces you simply pull them on. don't think that upper is available anymore though :(
most won't cost you any significant time as long as you are controlled enough to do it carefully - a big if there though!

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, your running economy will typically improve anywhere from 1 to about 7% in these shoes. For you it could be 3% for me it could be 7% in the exact same shoe.

Buy a shoe based on how it fits your feet & feels under them.

One problem you could potentially run into w/some of these shoes is if you have tall feet. Some of the tongues are sewn int the shoe. I can't even get my foot into many shoes like this. If you do have tall feet and get your feet into them the compressive forces across the top of the foot may be so much that you could experience numbness.

something to be aware of.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

couple of runs in the Saucony Pro and it was love at first sight. Now how do they compare with the Nike's I don't know as I haven't tried them. From how I felt them and how my friend describes running in the Nike's, I would say they follow the same logic

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Tridad

The Nike Vaporfly Next and Alphafly have a much softer feel than the Endorphin Pro. The rides between the Pro and Nike shoes is not similar AT ALL. I found the Pro harsh by comparison. But some people like that.

BTW Nike is releasing the Vapor Fly Next Version 2 in March with an improved upper and lower price of $225.

Does anyone have experience with the Hoka EVO Carbon Rocket? https://www.hokaoneone.com/...-rocket/1100049.html

I'm looking for a race only carbon plated shoe for 10K to half marathons. Yea or Nay?

IMO the Endorphin Speed is not soft either, I wouldn't rate it as harsh but more like performance shoes such as the Asics DS Racer, Mizuno Hitogami and the newer Fastwitch.

What I'd like an opinion on is if the Endorphin Shift is a softer shoe than the Speed. I've read reviews that it's an every day shoe but nobody I've seen has said anything about the cushioning feel differences.

I absolutely hated the Shift. I rotate between the Speed, Nike Turbo2, 4%Flyknit, VF Next% depending on what type of run training I am doing for the day. I bought the Shift thinking it would be softer than the Speed (which I love as a training shoe even though it's a tick firm) but after just 1 run, I could tell I would hate the shoe. It felt heavy, clunky, and not at all soft. I can sacrifice some weight if the shoe is softer, but clunky and firm is a recipe for disaster for training. If I wasn't able to return it, the shoe would have been relegated to a cross trainer. Glad I was able to return it.

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Cheers, Ray

Thanks, that helps.

The DS Racer was discontinued.

The nearest thing will be the DS trainer up to model 23. At model 24 they drastically neutered (ymmv)/changed the shoe. Changed the last from a racing flat last, the foam (although flyte foam is better imo), the feel. It's a lessor performance shoe imo. Although we've got a lot of customers who like the DS trainer 24 & 25 better than the 20-23.

I loved the DS trainer for a 70.3 racing flat and thankfully Asics sent me a bunch of 23's. I'll probably use them as a track/fast run shoe & pull a super shoe out if inventory for racing.

A shoe to consider for a training shoe is the Asics Novablast. The Novablast 2 are hitting the shelfs in small extremely quantities (we got in 2 pair on Monday, yes 2 pair.....of a complete size run). You may be able to find the 1st edition Novablast on sale. We have 4 or 5 left if you're interested, lmk.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I have them both..............

Nike is a bouncy marshmallow that is pretty unstable. It feels good on the feet after a long run. Its light and really fast at faster speeds. The tongue is a pain because it moves a lot. Should have been gusseted

Saucony is a rolly (if that is a word?) feeling, your feet roll forward, not bounce, with a pronounced pop of the carbon plate. Its not a squishy as the Nike and they are a lot more stable if that's important to you. They are a lot more durable than the Nike and they keep their pop, kick, or what ever you want to call it longer than the Nike. It has a semi-gusseted tongue which is very nice. The Pro is good at any speed despite it being a racing shoe.

For me it came down to this: I don't have the pretty foot strike that you need to maximize what the Nike does very well, makes your faster at fast speeds. If you have that forward foot strike the Nike is for you and don't mind the lack of durability and the PITA tongue.

The Pro for me was just as fast, its a little firmer feeling but still pretty squishy, the roll and carbon plate pop is very noticeable and its more stable as I get tired at the end of long runs. The Pro is a more forgiving shoe. I wouldn't call the Saucony a " Nike Killer" because they are both different and built for different people.

x2 on hating the shift.

I really like the endorphin speed (to me it feels bouncy soft... at ~180 lbs I don't find it at all firm but it definitely isn't mushy; feels great on harder efforts but I can wear it for longer/slower just fine).

I did about 25 miles in the shift (saw that people said it breaks in/softens up). It feels marginally less harsh after some miles but as TX83 else said, they feel clunky and firm and it was super hard for me to get into a comfortable stride with them and my ankles/calves felt a bit beat up after wearing them (they felt best to me running much faster than what I would want them for).

Thanks, I know the DS Racer was discontinued, it was my favorite race shoe when it was available. A few years ago I tried the DS Trainer again, I had used it before with success, but I didn't like how the pivot point was in relationship to the ball of my foot.

Luckily I found the Asics Hyper-Tri after the DS Racer was discontinued, soon afterwards the Hyper-Tri was discontinued. When I found that out I purchased 3 more pairs and still have 2 of them in the box. Since I was racing off-road I didn't need road racing shoes.

Now I really like the Endorphin Speed, I like the curve to the shoe but with it's solid feeling I would probably be better off with a more cushioned every-day shoe and was hoping the Shift would fit that bill. It looks like it may not.

I'll look at the Novablast, I've had good luck with the fit from Asics.

[quote jaretj
I'll look at the Novablast, I've had good luck with the fit from Asics.[/quote]
One of the staff at the store who's a runner only and in full disclosure I also coach her, loves the novablast. She also loves the endorphin pro. IDK if that helps or not since w/shoes it's ymmv

Her shoe lineup includes several Brooks Launches, novablasts and endorphin pros.

Good luck, hope it works & fits you

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I want to buy these but Next% 2 is coming out on March 25, so I'm waiting for those.

It depends what type of shoe you like. Low drop, very firm (but with good cushioning still), then these are for you. I personally love them as they for some reason are really good for my knees. But I have never used them for longer than about 10k. They are surprisingly versatile though. When I bought them I thought they would only work at race speeds, but they currently are my everyday shoe (due to the knee issues I had) for both road and offroad.

Watch this. Eric Largerstrom is running with Adidas and he loves them.

Best way I can explain those shoes is just "raw power".

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

It's a yes for me!

Used them for anything from 5k to half marathon, got a little over 600k out of them.

In the beginning they're definitely very firm/stiff and they feel off when running at easy paces but at race pace or during interval work they definitely liven up.
I've now been running in the Rocket X's and while they're great, they don't give me the same sense of speed that the Carbon Rocket gave.

So for the shorter stuff and interval work I'll probably still order a new pair. I like the low drop and firmer feel for that.

Eric was almost speechless after his brick run in the Adizero Adios Pros. Something akin to 'I was stupid to downplay/ignore the super-shoes for the last two years.' I think Lionel has come to the same conclusion.

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tinman

tinman wrote:

Eric was almost speechless after his brick run in the Adizero Adios Pros. Something akin to 'I was stupid to downplay/ignore the super-shoes for the last two years.' I think Lionel has come to the same conclusion.

I've been saying that ever since 4% came out. Lionel should have ditched Sketchers asap. He could have definitely placed 3rd at Daytona if he wore Nikes.
Eric's face was priceless!!! Watch it from 11:20.

Hi zesty!

Like Desertude said shoot a call over to your LRS to see if they can get them for you! You can also find them online at various places besides eBay or stockx just got to do a little searching.

Having tried a fair amount of these id say the closest in terms of feel is the Newbalance RC elite or the Adidas adios. I had the TC (trainer version) and loved them. Bear in mind I haven't tried the RC or the Adidas but the TC was amazing and the RC has a slightly different (cushier) foam. The Adidas I have un the box but just not tried but walking around seems cool. The plate is a lot different as its foot are carbon rods not a plate, that people have been noticing you can see after like 50 miles, but supposedly doesn't affect the ride or durability aspects of it. The Adidas have been the big player as far as racing has gone with the elites. Obviously a big piece is sponsorship but records have also gone to the Adidas.

IMO the Saucony Endorphin Pro is just a little too harsh for me at least. I know a lot of people liked them but they, again in IMO, don't give you that bounce feel or refresh feeling after running like the Nikes do. It felt more like a traditional racing shoe with a little more cushion but just a little harsh. I wouldn't race more than a 10k in them... maybe a half but not a full for me at least.

I'd also say the Hoka carbon x were also a harsh ride. I haven't tried the rocket but foams may be similar. I raced a half in them and went well but legs little beat up after.

I haven't tried the Asics as its been touted as more of a short distance 5k 10k type of racer. Sarah Hall and Yuki raced the "prototype" one that looks like it has a lot more cushioning. still not out yet though. Also heard these are also a bit harsh but again haven't tried.

Some good review sites are roadtrailrun.com and believeintherun.com. Both IMO are pretty unbiased and you get a lot of info.

Hope this helps

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/11645943 https://www.instagram.com/timeforicecream/

Agreed.

I put 339 miles on my Next%'s before the back half of the heel totally disintegrated and I had to retire them. Based on my experience and reading, viewing dozens of reviews there just isn't a shoe out there that compares to the Next%.

I put 187 miles on my Endorphin Speeds. And 25 miles on my Endorphin Pro's, and for a lot of reasons I really love the Saucony line up. Both Speed and Pro are very similar -- super light, very simple, super smooth ride, and the Speeds so far are very durable! 187 miles and the soles are still perfect despite running running on winter roads with lots of sand and grit. Really impressed with the durability so far of that shoe. Of all my "daily trainer" shoes I always find myself reaching for the Endorphin Speeds. And the Speeds are pretty *snappy* with the nylon plate; whereas the Pro's have more *pop* from the stiffer carbon plate.

I also have the Nike Zoom Fly 3's which have a carbon plate, but w/ React foam and it's a harsh ride and they're a tad heavy. I'm not crazy about them.

Bottom-line get the Next% if you want to be as fast as possible on Race Day. And I also like to use them for Key Sessions leading up to Race Day so I Recover better.

Any recommendations for people that use zero-drop shoes such as altras? I have been wanting to get a carbon shoe but going back to a large offset has me worried that i will get IT band pain again.

Have you tried the alphafly?
It's 4mm offset in the specs, but with a firmer forefoot than heel cushioning, so it rides close to a zero offset (depending on how exactly you land your feet). Worth trying I would say...

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https://besse.info/
https://www.strava.com/athletes/2012033

transam2k4 wrote:

Any recommendations for people that use zero-drop shoes such as altras? I have been wanting to get a carbon shoe but going back to a large offset has me worried that i will get IT band pain again.

Hoka Evo Carbon Rocket+ Is a 1MM offset:

https://www.hokaoneone.com/walking-shoes/evo-carbon-rocket/1100049.html

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Maybe the Endorphin Pro. It's marketed as a "moderate 8mm heel to toe off-set". Of all the different super shoes I've run in recently and over the years, the Endorphin Pro reminds me the most of a racing flat -- albeit a racing flat upper on a thick foam/carbon plate combo. The uppers, shape and footbed remind me a lot of my Asics Pirahna running flats. Hard to explain, but Endorphin pro is very simplistic for a super shoe, and the ride is amazing. The ride in the Next% is more like a complex process of landing, decompression/loading, and rebounding. The Endorphin Pro is very seamless in transition. Buttery smooth.

I can walk around in the Endorphin Pro's and they feel flat footed, except for the very front of the shoe. Like others have mentioned, in the Next% you feel unstable just walking around, you feel the stack height and offset. It's like walking on rocking horse shoes. But the Endorphin Pro feels much more like a traditional shoe. Hope this helps.

Both the Next % and Alphafly are available on Nike’s site currently, but not sure for how long.