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At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot
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I'm eyeing Waco 70.3 this fall as my first triathlon (few springs planned this summer), and have been coming to the realization that I need a nutrition and hydration plan that is more complex than "stop at this rest stop for food and drink a bottle of water an hour". When I ride 1-4 hours, I'm normally taking a Gu every 45-60 minutes along with drinking a bottle of Cytomax or water every hour. Sometimes I'll pack a PB & honey sandwich. Note that I live in Southeast TX where it gets nice and toasty during the summer. This seems to have served me well enough, but I no doubt believe I'm NOT hydrating enough or taking in the proper amount of calories etc.

I've read and read and read about mixing your own sports drink using Gatorade, sugar, salt/sodium citrate, and God knows what else, but I'm having a really hard time making sense of how to even put these concoctions together and drink them at a rate that won't leave me either passed out on the side of the road from dehydration or doubled over in pain from stomach cramps. I'm also not a fan of JUST taking in nutrition via liquid. I honestly don't mind Gu's, and enjoy a PB sandwich or stroopwafel to wake up the taste buds. But, for the life of me I just can't find a simple straight forward recipe for A) mixing a cost-effective sports drink at home, and B) making sure it works with the calories I'm taking in from other sources. Seriously, something as simple as "24oz. of water, a scoop of this, 1 tsp of that, and a tablet of this pill" would be great, if it can be distilled down to something that simple. Otherwise I guess I'll have to get smarter? But any help is really appreciated by this hydration idiot!
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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this has been discussed a lot in many threads. in short (using standard measuring units):
1/3 cup of maltodextrin (for example: https://www.amazon.com/...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
1/6 - 1/3 cup of fructose (for example: https://www.amazon.com/...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
one tsp of sodium (for example: https://www.amazon.com/...le?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Mix in standard water bottle and you got all you need for an hour.
You can play with the ratios and concentration, add flavor and/or caffeine, consume more or less than a bottle depending on how much you sweat.

this is super simple to do, takes 30 seconds to prepare a bottle
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]
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I don't mean to be dense, but exactly how much gatorade powder, sugar, and sodium citrate in a bottle?
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Consider separating your nutrition and hydration. Just water in the bottles, and gels/chews/waffles/etc. for calories.

This is the most flexible solution, since hot days will require more hydration but not more nutrition. It's also easy to stop and refill bottles with water during a longer ride, but more of a hassle to mix up caloric drinks. My method is to carry all the calories I'll need, and cage 2 bottles that I refill ~75-90min. so I'm getting ~1L/hr.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [dgutstadt] [ In reply to ]
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dgutstadt wrote:
this has been discussed a lot in many threads. in short (using standard measuring units):
1/3 cup of maltodextrin (for example: https://www.amazon.com/...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
1/6 - 1/3 cup of fructose (for example: https://www.amazon.com/...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
one tsp of sodium (for example: https://www.amazon.com/...le?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Mix in standard water bottle and you got all you need for an hour.
You can play with the ratios and concentration, add flavor and/or caffeine, consume more or less than a bottle depending on how much you sweat.

this is super simple to do, takes 30 seconds to prepare a bottle

Ah, this is very helpful! This is simple enough for an idiot like me to start with, thank you.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Alex usually chimes in on these since he’s a wiz, but the gist of it is just use plain table sugar and salt to make your drinks. You realllly dont need the fancy stuff, it gets expensive fast. I normally do 60g cane sugar per hour, and you can increase it based on intensity and stomach tolerance

Strava
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [RossJ] [ In reply to ]
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RossJ wrote:
Dr. Alex usually chimes in on these since he’s a wiz, but the gist of it is just use plain table sugar and salt to make your drinks. You realllly dont need the fancy stuff, it gets expensive fast. I normally do 60g cane sugar per hour, and you can increase it based on intensity and stomach tolerance

I have read some of his posts but get confused quickly when the discussion turns to concentration of calories per liter, and everything goes over my head, and I can't figure out just how much of each ingredient is going into each bottle. Hopefully he can chime in, he seems incredible knowledgeable on the topic.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Get used to drinking whatever they are serving on the bike and run courses.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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He is a bit of a science geek, so i do get it gets confusing after a bit. All you need to know is a tablespoon of cane sugar is about 15g. Put a few scoops into your water bottle, maybe a pinch of salt, and shake. Squeeze a lemon in there or add fruit juice for flavor. Easy

Strava
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [RossJ] [ In reply to ]
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RossJ wrote:
He is a bit of a science geek, so i do get it gets confusing after a bit. All you need to know is a tablespoon of cane sugar is about 15g. Put a few scoops into your water bottle, maybe a pinch of salt, and shake. Squeeze a lemon in there or add fruit juice for flavor. Easy

Ah, so really it's just 2-3 T sugar, 1/2 to 1 tsp sodium citrate (this is just salt?), a maybe scoop of Gatorade powder for flavor (if you want), and shake? This sounds very simple and cheap, I like that.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Th4ddy wrote:
RossJ wrote:
He is a bit of a science geek, so i do get it gets confusing after a bit. All you need to know is a tablespoon of cane sugar is about 15g. Put a few scoops into your water bottle, maybe a pinch of salt, and shake. Squeeze a lemon in there or add fruit juice for flavor. Easy


Ah, so really it's just 2-3 T sugar, 1/2 to 1 tsp sodium citrate (this is just salt?), a maybe scoop of Gatorade powder for flavor (if you want), and shake? This sounds very simple and cheap, I like that.

Pretty much it. Sodium citrate is just 'salt' without the salty taste. You can go up to 4-6 T sugar if you want and that bottle should last you an hour

That's what i do, normally 3-4 T sugar, though i just use table salt (a pinch between my thumb and pointer finger or maybe 2-3 pinches on a hot day) in a regular water bottle (500-750ml) and squeeze a lemon in for some flavor

Strava
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah so Dr. Harrison would be the pro for this (the poster in links I sent above). But so far I've done:

-40g gatorade
-80g sugar
-15g sodium citrate
-750ml water

And consume about a bottle per hour or so.

He's experimented up to 150g of carbs I think, but you will need to experiment with that for your own gut. The idea is about 2:1 sugar:gatorade.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Th4ddy wrote:


I don't mean to be dense, but exactly how much gatorade powder, sugar, and sodium citrate in a bottle?


Table of Intra-workout Carb Needs Per Hour of Training


Sweat Rates

Electrolyte Content of Sweat

Roughly 500-1500mg sodium per liter is great. Closer to 1500mg if sweating a lot. Closer to 500-1000mg if barely sweating.

FYI: Sodium Citrate has about 1000mg sodium per tsp. Table salt is about 2000mg sodium per tsp.
Also FYI: Sugar ≅ 200g per cup.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]
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kerikstri wrote:
Yeah so Dr. Harrison would be the pro for this (the poster in links I sent above). But so far I've done:

-40g gatorade
-80g sugar
-15g sodium citrate
-750ml water

And consume about a bottle per hour or so.

He's experimented up to 150g of carbs I think, but you will need to experiment with that for your own gut. The idea is about 2:1 sugar:gatorade.

Or 6:1 sugar:Gatorade. Or 10:1! I just use Gatorade for taste :)

Also for ease, I just measure with measuring spoons/cups, rather than scale. Accuracy matters little.

And yep up to 150g/hr is great if you can stomach it.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Th4ddy wrote:
RossJ wrote:
Dr. Alex usually chimes in on these since he’s a wiz, but the gist of it is just use plain table sugar and salt to make your drinks. You realllly dont need the fancy stuff, it gets expensive fast. I normally do 60g cane sugar per hour, and you can increase it based on intensity and stomach tolerance
I have read some of his posts but get confused quickly when the discussion turns to concentration of calories per liter, and everything goes over my head, and I can't figure out just how much of each ingredient is going into each bottle. Hopefully he can chime in, he seems incredible knowledgeable on the topic.
Example 3-hr ride with 120g/hr carbs, and 1000-1200mg/hr sodium.
Bottle 1:
  • Fill half full with water, then add...
  • 1.5 cups sugar (~300g carbs)
  • 1 large scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
  • 1 Tbsp Sodium Citrate (~1000mg sodium)
  • Shake vigorously
  • Then fill remainder with water and shake again.
Bottle 2 & 3:
Can get away with less water on cool days or easier rides. If doing less water, cut back on sodium so as not to exceed 1500-1800mg/L consumed. Rule of thumb: 1 tsp sodium citrate in front bottle, per bottle of fluid onboard.

Can also get away with using table salt for cool days where water and sodium consumption needs won't be as high.

Mount for spare bottle:
Additional Universal Bottle Mount

I'll often load one 1-L Zefal bottle with up to 600-700g carbs and basically "drink" from it like it's a giant gel. Shake often. Add water when possible. Riding no-handed is handy skill.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: Feb 11, 21 21:46
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Th4ddy wrote:
RossJ wrote:
He is a bit of a science geek, so i do get it gets confusing after a bit. All you need to know is a tablespoon of cane sugar is about 15g. Put a few scoops into your water bottle, maybe a pinch of salt, and shake. Squeeze a lemon in there or add fruit juice for flavor. Easy


Ah, so really it's just 2-3 T sugar, 1/2 to 1 tsp sodium citrate (this is just salt?), a maybe scoop of Gatorade powder for flavor (if you want), and shake? This sounds very simple and cheap, I like that.


Using sodium citrate in place of table salt allows your gut to tolerate more sodium consumption during training. Sodium citrate has 3 sodium molecules for every 1 citrate molecule. Sodium chloride has 1 sodium molecule for every 1 chloride molecule. That means that for the same amount of sodium consumption, there will be a greater number of molecules ingested, if using table salt, rather than sodium citrate. Osmolarity is the number of molecules per unit volume of solution. Our gastrointestinal tracts are sensitive to very high osmolarity solutions. During normal daily living, consumption of very high osmolar solutions (lots of molecules per liter) causes a laxative effect 20-60 minutes after consumption. During exercise, it causes gut cramping, THEN a laxative effect. My personal experience with this can be described as "not fun!"

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Th4ddy wrote:
RossJ wrote:
Dr. Alex usually chimes in on these since he’s a wiz, but the gist of it is just use plain table sugar and salt to make your drinks. You realllly dont need the fancy stuff, it gets expensive fast. I normally do 60g cane sugar per hour, and you can increase it based on intensity and stomach tolerance

I have read some of his posts but get confused quickly when the discussion turns to concentration of calories per liter, and everything goes over my head, and I can't figure out just how much of each ingredient is going into each bottle. Hopefully he can chime in, he seems incredible knowledgeable on the topic.

Example 3-hr ride with 120g/hr carbs, and 1000-1200mg/hr sodium.
Bottle 1:
  • Fill half full with water, then add...
  • 1.5 cups sugar (~300g carbs)
  • 1 large scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
  • 1 Tbsp Sodium Citrate (~1000mg sodium)
  • Shake vigorously
  • Then fill remainder with water and shake again.
Bottle 2 & 3:
Can get away with less water on cool days or easier rides. If doing less water, cut back on sodium so as not to exceed 1500-1800mg/L consumed. Rule of thumb: 1 tsp sodium citrate in front bottle, per bottle of fluid onboard.

Can also get away with using table salt for cool days where water and sodium consumption needs won't be as high.

Mount for spare bottle:
Additional Universal Bottle Mount

I'll often load one 1-L Zefal bottle with up to 600-700g carbs and basically "drink" from it like it's a giant gel. Shake often. Add water when possible. Riding no-handed is handy skill.

Thank you for the information! And wow, that seems like a TON of sugar, but I imagine you're sipping from that bottle like it's a gel and chasing it down from your other water bottles. I like the idea of starting smaller and dialing up to make sure I can tolerate the cards.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]
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kerikstri wrote:
Yeah so Dr. Harrison would be the pro for this (the poster in links I sent above). But so far I've done:

-40g gatorade
-80g sugar
-15g sodium citrate
-750ml water

And consume about a bottle per hour or so.

He's experimented up to 150g of carbs I think, but you will need to experiment with that for your own gut. The idea is about 2:1 sugar:gatorade.

So from what I can figure out by looking at the labels for Gatorade powder and bog standard granulated sugar, 40g of Gatorade is ~155 calories (90 cal per 23g serving size ). 80g of Sugar is another 300 calories (30 cal per 8g serving size). So if my math works out correctly you're putting ~455 calories into each bottle of 750ml. And for carbs, 40g of Gatorage should have ~ 40 carbs (22g carbs per 23g serving size). 80g of Sugar should have 80g of carbs (8g carbs per 8g serving size). That totals up to ~120 carbs.

So, for your recipe above, that's ~455 calories and ~120 carbs, which seems to be a reasonable starting point that shouldn't result in gut explosion?
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Yup that math checks out! And that would be bottles per hour on the bike.

You should feel like you have much more energy throughout your rides and be less hungry throughout the day afterwards too.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]
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Great, this is an excellent starting point. And since I do like to eat on my rides I imagine it's easy enough to just bring one or two bottles that are simply water, and eat my nutrition while taking in that bottle of water.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Th4ddy wrote:
Great, this is an excellent starting point. And since I do like to eat on my rides I imagine it's easy enough to just bring one or two bottles that are simply water, and eat my nutrition while taking in that bottle of water.
Desire to eat may be reduced by fueling well with 100-120g/hr via carb solution. Hopefully!

I personally do not think about calories at ALL. Just carbs. Reason: I'm not going to touch anything else while exercising. No protein. No fat. No fiber. All those reduce ability to meet carb and fluid needs, especially at higher intensities.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Correction! FYI: Sodium Citrate has about 1000mg sodium per tsp. Table salt is about 2000mg sodium per tsp.

There was a typo above. TEAspoon. Not tablespoon.

I hope I've typed this correctly in other threads, but if you're reading this.... I've intended to refer to teaspoons only with regard to all things sodium.

If you have been doing TABLEspoons, I'd like to hear your story and the maximum rates of consumption you've achieved without GI distress plz & thx!

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: Apr 20, 21 16:18
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Correction! FYI: Sodium Citrate has about 1000mg sodium per tsp. Table salt is about 2000mg sodium per tsp.

There was a typo above. TEAspoon. Not tablespoon.

I hope I've typed this correctly in other threads, but if you're reading this.... I've intended to refer to teaspoons only with regard to all things sodium.

If you have been doing TABLEspoons, I'd like to hear your story and the maximum rates of consumption you've achieved without GI distress plz & thx!

I'm glad I didn't blindly follow this advice. I initially started with a teaspoon and never ventured beyond that! I'll be doing a nice real world test next weekend with a 103mi. ride planned. I'll have at least two bottles loaded up with ~100 g carbs to see how my stomach does.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Pays to be a skeptic!

I bet you can go higher on carbs if you hydrate well. Regardless, enjoy the ride!

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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I do plan on going higher, I'll also be taking Gu gels and Stroopwafels with me. Those will supplement my ~100g of carbs per hour that I plan on taking via liquid nutrition. That should add 20-40g of carbs per hour. Since I won't be taking extra powder with me, I'll probably have to switch to water and increase the carbs via food.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [Th4ddy] [ In reply to ]
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Perfect

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Th4ddy wrote:
RossJ wrote:
Dr. Alex usually chimes in on these since he’s a wiz, but the gist of it is just use plain table sugar and salt to make your drinks. You realllly dont need the fancy stuff, it gets expensive fast. I normally do 60g cane sugar per hour, and you can increase it based on intensity and stomach tolerance

I have read some of his posts but get confused quickly when the discussion turns to concentration of calories per liter, and everything goes over my head, and I can't figure out just how much of each ingredient is going into each bottle. Hopefully he can chime in, he seems incredible knowledgeable on the topic.

Example 3-hr ride with 120g/hr carbs, and 1000-1200mg/hr sodium.
Bottle 1:
  • Fill half full with water, then add...
  • 1.5 cups sugar (~300g carbs)
  • 1 large scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
  • 1 Tbsp Sodium Citrate (~1000mg sodium)
  • Shake vigorously
  • Then fill remainder with water and shake again.
Bottle 2 & 3:
Can get away with less water on cool days or easier rides. If doing less water, cut back on sodium so as not to exceed 1500-1800mg/L consumed. Rule of thumb: 1 tsp sodium citrate in front bottle, per bottle of fluid onboard.

Can also get away with using table salt for cool days where water and sodium consumption needs won't be as high.

Mount for spare bottle:
Additional Universal Bottle Mount

I'll often load one 1-L Zefal bottle with up to 600-700g carbs and basically "drink" from it like it's a giant gel. Shake often. Add water when possible. Riding no-handed is handy skill.

Doctor, any downside to taking that half filled bottle with the mix and separate it equally to the other two bottles so you have a base in all three, then add water?

Thank you
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [anthonypat] [ In reply to ]
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Dental health is the only downside to doing that.

And if you are like me, it's nice to chase sugar with water just to make breathing/ swallowing easier

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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I think this information is all awesome but I think I am missing something….what do you do for racing long when you don’t have these personal concoctions handy? Assuming the race is serving some for of Gatorade and gels, what is the recommended plan on an hourly basis?
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [yikes] [ In reply to ]
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We pack the desired solution on the bike. Grab water at aid stations as necessary.

On run: Gatorade Endurance is pretty good. Or carry desired concentrate and supplement with water from aid stations.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Is it that easy as just pounding table sugar?
Just keep in mind that as soon as you stop the sugar, You are gonna bonk….hard.
So it’s super risky as a nutrition strategy even for healthy people.
You may recover after a while when you finally get your Keto going, but until then….. even if you supply some long chain carbs with all that sugar.

There’s also some concern with that strategy regarding long term effects for those being (pre-) diabetic. Not a small number in the populace. But again, they may be most adapted to that nutrition strategy and feel good doing it.

Just my 2 cents on that wizardry.
Last edited by: nevertoolate: Jul 5, 21 20:59
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [nevertoolate] [ In reply to ]
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Correct re bonk. Don't stop feuling. Eat immediately after race or training. Mess either of those up and you have a recipe for feeling pretty rough. Do them well and you can enhance performance by a wide margin over feeling with lower GI options. (Wide meaning meaningful, not like 20%or something silly)

This approach should not be carried out by folks with fasting glucose over 100 or a1c over 5.6%.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Correct re bonk. Don't stop feuling. Eat immediately after race or training. Mess either of those up and you have a recipe for feeling pretty rough. Do them well and you can enhance performance by a wide margin over feeling with lower GI options. (Wide meaning meaningful, not like 20%or something silly)

This approach should not be carried out by folks with fasting glucose over 100 or a1c over 5.6%.


Thank You for confirming. Do you also want to comment on the notion to mainly only need sodium (citrate) as an electrolyte ( other than the obvious cramping problematic ?)

Sorry, I don’t have a PhD, but I learned this all the hard way.
As when my partner in a multi-day backcountry endurance challenge showed up with ‘sugary’ nutrition.
We got in real trouble when he turned out to be (pre)-diabetic unbeknownst to him.
Since then, I always ask to see the nutrition plan of a hiking/training partner. It’s super telling.

In my experience, shortcuts in nutrition are exactly that…
I do understand that these tips may work well for a shorter race or training session, but think they are woeful unsuitable for IM training or long distance/endurance racing.
Last edited by: nevertoolate: Jul 5, 21 21:42
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [nevertoolate] [ In reply to ]
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nevertoolate wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Correct re bonk. Don't stop feuling. Eat immediately after race or training. Mess either of those up and you have a recipe for feeling pretty rough. Do them well and you can enhance performance by a wide margin over feeling with lower GI options. (Wide meaning meaningful, not like 20%or something silly)

This approach should not be carried out by folks with fasting glucose over 100 or a1c over 5.6%.


Thank You for confirming. Do you also want to comment on the notion to mainly only need sodium (citrate) as an electrolyte ( other than the obvious cramping problematic ?)
You do mainly only need sodium. Sodium Citrate works great. Table salt also works pretty well when consuming <1000mg/L/hr

I have not studied all-out multi-day racing (yet). I have studied (and coached folks through), events up to 30 hrs, and have recommended minimal potassium, and loads of sodium, and no other electrolytes.

Is that what you're getting at?

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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PS. I have no reason to believe that multi-day racing would be any different, other than anecdotes online, of which I am highly skeptical because many of the anecdotes re: single-day ultra racing lead to boldly stated patently false claims. Just for context!

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
Join us on YouTube → Saturday Morning | Ride & Run Faster and our growing Saturday User Hub
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Just curious, as I don’t see this mentioned, but I’ve heard 2:1 glucose to fructose ratio is ideal. When using sugar isn’t that 1:1? And then adding Gatorade is adding more fructose? Could I supplement with maltodextin if I wanted to go higher on the glucose? Maybe I’m off base but I see a lot of folks recommending maltodextrin as the main ingredient not sugar/sucrose.

Thanks
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [IanH] [ In reply to ]
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I think you just punched Dr. Harrison in the face...

Just kidding, but check out his other posts and his website for more information. New research is showing that 1:1 is probably more optimal, hence why he's suggesting adding sugar to gatorade. There's a limit on how much glucose you are able to process and by aiming for 2:1 you are not maximizing the number of carbs you can take. People are hitting 120-150 g/hour using this mix.

Another researcher you could look into is Tim Podlogar who has done a ton of studies involving mostly cyclists and carbs.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [IanH] [ In reply to ]
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Quick summary:
https://www.trainerroad.com/...8?u=dr_alex_harrison

1:1 Glucose:Fructose Ratio Works better than 2:1.
https://www.trainerroad.com/...n-a-bottle/30328/200

90-150 grams of carbs per hour during exercise may be beneficial. 90 is not the limit.
https://www.trainerroad.com/...should-you/33210/583

Sucrose works as well as maltodextrin:fructose, and glucose:fructose 1:1 mixtures. >>90g/hr is optimal
https://www.trainerroad.com/...n-a-bottle/30328/204

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]
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kerikstri wrote:
Another researcher you could look into is Tim Podlogar who has done a ton of studies involving mostly cyclists and carbs.

Been chatting occasionally with Tim since we were both back in our PhD programs. Super sharp guy. Very well read and still performance-minded.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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📱 Check out our app → Saturday: Pro Fuel & Hydration, a performance nutrition coach in your pocket.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Harrison,

Is there any advantage to using a mix of NaCl plus sodium citrate vs just sodium citrate alone as one's sodium source in their race fuel mixture? As a point of reference, I've historically formulated race fuel with on the order of 8 to 10mg of sodium/ gram of CHO.

Thanks so much for spending time here giving very useful feedback.

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think so. But I don't have an abundance of hard evidence to say no. I tend to like to have reviewed the literature very comprehensively before asserting much certainty, FYI.

I can say for certain that avoiding much NaCl is wise for avoiding GI issues.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the quick and well reasoned reply. I now have some sodium citrate on hand and will do several trials before the "big day".

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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He's a fun follow on IG too. Shows off some of his studies, and also how he fuels his own rides. He is currently on a training camp with a couple of guys, and is boiling thousands of grams of sugar into water for ride fuel!
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]
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Love it.

Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Alex,

I am gonna experiment with this bottle mixture you suggest. My question is whether you use 1000 mg sodium in one bottle or 3000?

Your RP site link lists this:
Cheapest possible well-fueled 3-hr endurance session:
300g carbs. 3000mg sodium. 200mg caffeine.

This posts says this:

Example 3-hr ride with 120g/hr carbs, and 1000-1200mg/hr sodium.
Bottle 1:



    In bottle 1 you suggest a TABLEspoon of sodium citrate but late go on to correct it and say 1 tsp of sodium citrate.

    I think 1 tsp = 1000 mg and therefor 1 TBSP = 3000

    Am I getting this wrong?

    Thanks!
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [curdog16] [ In reply to ]
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    curdog16 wrote:
    Alex,

    I am gonna experiment with this bottle mixture you suggest. My question is whether you use 1000 mg sodium in one bottle or 3000?

    Your RP site link lists this:
    Cheapest possible well-fueled 3-hr endurance session:
    300g carbs. 3000mg sodium. 200mg caffeine.

    This posts says this:

    Example 3-hr ride with 120g/hr carbs, and 1000-1200mg/hr sodium.
    Bottle 1:
    In bottle 1 you suggest a TABLEspoon of sodium citrate but late go on to correct it and say 1 tsp of sodium citrate.

    I think 1 tsp = 1000 mg and therefor 1 TBSP = 3000

    Am I getting this wrong?

    Thanks!
    TLDR: No, not wrong. You are getting it correct.

    Long answer:
    Thanks for figuring out where the Tbsp vs tsp confusion is coming from! Been wondering where I erred on that. Turns out, maybe, if I'm understanding correctly, it was not an error? I'm still not sure what I previously wrote, but yes:

    1 tsp sodium citrate ≅ 1000 mg sodium.
    1 Tbsp sodium citrate ≅ 3000 mg sodium.

    Maybe where some of the confusion is coming from is that hourly intakes of sodium citrate for this example might need to be about 1 tsp, but that the total for the ride, was about 1 Tbsp??

    That RP article I wrote a while back is laying out what might be necessary for a 3-hour ride. 300g carbs, 3000mg sodium, 3L water, IIRC.

    That's 1.5 cups sugar, 3 tsp (ie. 1 Tbsp) sodium citrate, roughly, depending on the brand.

    Brands of sodium citrate vary from 940mg-1400mg per tsp, and at the time of writing I had only seen the 940-1200mg range and 1000mg was a close enough average for 99% of folks. Turns out, with some companies coming in at 1400 mg per tsp, it's worth getting a little closer in your estimation if using volumetric (tsp & Tbsp) measurements. So, read your labels. If using Pure brand, which I've linked out of convenience, previously, your guess is as good as mine (I just use 1000mg/tsp as good enough still), because they have not yet answered my inquiry regarding how much sodium is in one tsp, and I haven't whipped out my milligram scale to figure it out.

    FYI: The app I'm writing will assume 1200mg/tsp because that seems to be a rough/round average of what folks are using. I may also include a feature on the app where users can input how many mg of sodium come from their specific brand of sodium citrate, per tsp.

    Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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    Have you tested using menthol extract to help with heat perception?
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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    Yes. TLDR: worst thing I've ever tasted. If you could even call the experience "taste."

    Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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    Any other tests with menthol not the SIS Gels?
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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    No. I don't believe I'll ever put menthol in my mouth again. :)

    There are probably creams/swabs / other applications that are emerging in product form with scant research. I've not read the menthol-related research thoroughly.

    Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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    Dr Alex, I’m seriously working toward being a sugar water groupie,….. lmbo ….. when talking about bonking and ‘don’t stop fueling’ …. I assume after training and racing the idea is to simply eat food … but after a 5-6 hr IM bike leg of the sugar water, are you suggesting the same level of sugar (errrrr. CHO intake) for the run, or are you perhaps suggesting just keep taking in CHO as best as you can tolerate for the duration of the run? (Which, is pretty much what I’ve always done with my other nutrition game plans…)…… love your vid’s btw.
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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    Did a quick google search

    There is a lot of different things gum, cough drops etc
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [deantrives] [ In reply to ]
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    The latter! Gut tolerance definitely drops a bit on the run. Max out what you can tolerate.

    That said, there are some folks who can run at very high intensities and still fuel at very high rates. Play with it.

    Anecdote: I just did a detailed consult with a 2:13 marathoner who increased his carbs from 99g/hr to a little over 100g/hr and PR'd by a minute doing it. No GI issues. (also tripled sodium intake)

    Dr. Alex Harrison | Founder & CEO | Sport Physiology & Performance PhD
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    Re: At-Home Hydration/Nutrition for an idiot [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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    Thanks…. That’s a precise calc, i think I’ll be more toward 5-9% margin…
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