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Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math)
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Hi there

i want to buy some bulk maltodextrin and fructose to make a much cheaper version of the maurten drink, however i want to make sure i get the right amounts of sodium (and the other electrolytes) and possibly pectin in the mix so that it mixes into the water well.

im a pretty dumb guy so need help with this....

for example in each serving i would want to achieve

100 grams of carbs with a 2:1 ratio of maltodextrin to fructose
1000mg of sodium (plus potassium and other small electrolytes)
some pectin

Using these rough amounts how would i best calculate the right weight of electrolytes to add, or the best place to source them?

i figured i can add together a huge 10kg bag of maltodextrin with 5kg of fructose, but then should i just buy a branded electrolyte powder like SiS or scratch and add that to the mix?
Let me know thanks
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.trainerroad.com/...h-quality-food/27869

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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I do something similar to what you suggest. Maltodextrin and fructose in a 2:1 ratio (1.5 scoops of malto and 1 scoop of fructose) and then add a High5 electrolyte tab (adds some flavor and sometimes with caffeine) for a 750ml bottle.

That's ~70gr of maltodextrin and ~35gr of fructose, which would equate to 4 gels at a much lower cost.

Since I live in Spain, I buy them from HSN or Bulk in 1kg format. I wouldn't buy them in larger bags, especially the fructose because it tends to get sticky or wet. I don't see the point of buying 5kg to get a 10-20% lower price when 1kg is €3-4.

When I finish these bags I'll try dextrin and palatinose. Why? Expensive gels include them, and apparently they don't cause caries.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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It's going to matter how many calories per cup or gram depending on how you decide to mix. Also unsure how to test the pectin without testing... I use NOW bulk malto and just use boiling water the night before or mix with ice soon after. Toss in a nuun tab for electros and then I use honey.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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This is the way.
Prepacked supplement stuff is easy and expensive but often there is no telling what's actually in there in what ratio. This has led me to some nutrition tinkering to discover that's actually effective as a preworkout versus the crap being included just to bulk up the weight. I've enjoyed experimenting with making my own.

I really enjoy liquid electrolytes and have been using them exclusively, aside from capsules for racing. Trace Mineral drops are good because they are sodium free, so I can add in good quality Himalayan pink salt. Gotta be carefully with liquid magnesium though, that stuff chills me out to the point of wanting to sleep.

The Ultima brand is my favorite premixed stuff as there is no sugar and the flavor isn't exhausting like others.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [anakinpm] [ In reply to ]
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ahh i am in Spain too, i will look into HSN thanks. then will maybe mix into a plastic tub and keep the electrolytes seperate and just add in tabs each time to the bottle. does that mix okay without needing to boil it?

when i used sis beta fuel which is a bit more expensive i just shake the bottle and no need to boil that mix
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it's necessary to mix them in advance. Just add 1.5 scoops of maltodextrin and 1 of fructose, add electrolytes and shake well. That guarantees you are getting the right ratio. In a mix, maybe some day you get 2:1 and the next 1.6:1. No need to boil either

Take a look at this https://www.climbingnutrition.com/...ur-own-sports-drink/

I buy from SiS only when they have special sale offers like the taster pack. Too expensive otherwise

Btw, if it's your first time buying from HSN or Bulk (I prefer the later for whey and nut butters), these are my referral codes so you save some money (and so do I)

HSN: FP82249
Bulk: https://referme.to/franciscojavierperezm-5
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [anakinpm] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve only ever used commercially available stuff (gels, chews, NUUN,Gatorade, etc). If you mix your own stuff, is this intended as a substitute for nutrition, electrolyte hydration, or both? How do you manage to replenish it during longer event, e.g. IM or HIM, or is this purely for shorter distance stuff? Do you just pack replacements into your special needs bag on an IM course? Do you add any sort of flavoring? I find that after 4-5 hours of gel that my tolerance for ‘sweet’ as a flavor is really low, i just hate the taste. Maybe I should just drink BBQ sauce on the bike. Those are pretty sugary.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [eblackadder] [ In reply to ]
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While I do believe it's important to train your specific in-race nutrition, I think the most important thing is to train your gut. If you were to consume 60-100g of carbohydrates per hour, you just need to train that in a variety of forms.

For me, that means many long rides in the weekends. I could do it with commercially available stuff, but I realized that it's very expensive. I refuse to spend €10 in nutrition every time I go for a ride. That's what marketing tells you.

In a long event I make my first two bottles and pack gels, bars or make my own sandwiches. Then I trust the aid stations.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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Info dump incoming! I hope you'll find some of it useful.

You might not want 2:1 gluc:fruc. There is good evidence to suggest that much closer to 1:1 is optimal. More on that in a bit.

FYI: Sodium Citrate has about 1000mg sodium per tsp. Table salt is about 2000mg sodium per tsp. This is the sodium citrate I buy. No affiliation. Sodium Citrate

Using sodium citrate in place of table salt allows your gut to tolerate more sodium consumption during training. Sodium citrate has 3 sodium molecules for every 1 citrate molecule. Sodium chloride has 1 sodium molecule for every 1 chloride molecule. That means that for the same amount of sodium consumption, there will be a greater number of molecules ingested, if using table salt, rather than sodium citrate. Osmolarity is the number of molecules per unit volume of solution. Our gastrointestinal tracts are sensitive to very high osmolarity solutions. During normal daily living, consumption of very high osmolar solutions (lots of molecules per liter) causes a laxative effect 20-60 minutes after consumption. During exercise, it causes gut cramping, THEN a laxative effect. My personal experience with this can be described as "not fun!"

Gatorade is really just water, sugars, salts, flavor, coloring, and preservative, and sometimes pectin for texture/mouthfeel.

Useful facts for your understanding:
Glucose = Dextrose. Same molecule, interchangeable name.
Maltodextrin = strung-together dextrose. Variable # of dextrose. Average of 10-20 molecules.
Sucrose = 1 Glucose + 1 Fructose, connected

The ideal ratio of glucose to fructose in intra-workout carb consumption (from all sources, ie: drinks, gels, chews, food etc.) is roughly 1:1 and certainly anything worse than 2:1 glucose:fructose is a recipe for under-performance and potential gut issues. Reason: absorption rates are better with closer to 1:1 ratio.

The old info of 60g carbs from glucose per hour and 30g carbs from fructose per hour is just that, old. Closer to 1:1 ratio with a pretty hard max for GLUCOSE around 60-70g/hr is more optimal. Folks who train to do it can routinely consume 100-150g carbs per hour on the bike if using roughly 1:1 ratio or even slightly higher fructose.

Hence, optimality can be roughly achieved through use of purely maltodextrin plus fructose, or through purely use of sucrose, or through a roughly equal mix of the 3. Goal = minimizing number of molecules. Hence, pure dextrose + pure fructose is slightly less optimal.

More important to you and I, table sugar is cheap and optimal.

Further yet, the osmolarity of solution can be lowered by using table sugar exclusively, as compared to maltodextrin plus fructose, assuming an average maltodextrin strand length and assuming you're shooting for closer to 1:1 rather than 2:1. Sorry to all current dealers of maltodextrin!!

Here is info on how I do this specifically:
Saving Money as an Endurance Athlete
(more specifically, I mix everything day-of, with no boiling. I just put in a big bottle and shake vigorously.)

I use Zefal Magnum Bottles (32oz) because they're huge and I like a lot of carbs! :) (no affiliation with this either)

Here's more info on specifically how to make this work:
When and How to Use High-Carb Fueling

And another example of intra-workout math for your reading pleasure... but not all home-brew stuff FYI in advance:
Detailed Intra-Workout Fueling 3-hr Example

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: Jan 3, 21 10:21
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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There's an extensive publication on the mixture ratios: Addition of an Alginate Hydrogel to a Carbohydrate Beverage Enhances Gastric Emptying - Shaun Sutehall, Stuart D R Galloway, Andrew Bosch, Yannis Pitsiladis


I'm not sure if it's accessible to everyone: https://www.researchgate.net/...ces_Gastric_Emptying
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Impressive knowledge thanks Alex. Further question, I was reading the ben greenfield book and he recommends including essential aminoacids in a carb sports drink for ironman in order to help avoid CNS fatigue issues, would you think this would impair the osmolality of the drink you suggest? Also what is your views on ketone eshers consumption as well, would you support a broad nutrition strategy hitting all the metabolic systems (say Ketoens+UCAN+Sugars+Electrolytes, even though not all in the same drink) or would you rather focus on more narrow sugar + electrolyte methabolism? I am talking about 9h+ ironman intensity so say 75% of FTP/60% of VO2 Max, ie primarily aerobic.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [TomvdS] [ In reply to ]
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TomvdS wrote:
There's an extensive publication on the mixture ratios: Addition of an Alginate Hydrogel to a Carbohydrate Beverage Enhances Gastric Emptying - Shaun Sutehall, Stuart D R Galloway, Andrew Bosch, Yannis Pitsiladis


I'm not sure if it's accessible to everyone: https://www.researchgate.net/...ces_Gastric_Emptying


Great article find. I had not seen this. They compared a sodium alginate-containing beverage to one not containing sodium. They need to match sodium for this to indicate anything about sodium alginate specifically because there is good evidence that any sodium inclusion in a carb beverage enhances absorption rate.

Sodium citrate may work the same. Table salt may work the same (though slightly increase osmolarity compared to sodium citrate).

I humbly posit based on my current review of lit (not comprehensive) that it may be possible that maurten works better for many athletes than other beverages mixes in real life because:
  1. They recommend higher total carb consumption than most others.
  2. They have closer to 1:1 ratio of gluc:fruc than their competitors (the ones who report ratios usually report ~2:1)
  3. Confirmation bias because of high purchase price and fancy package.

...not because of sodium alginate.

At least, as the body of research currently sits, there is no evidence that it's better than a any other beverage when matched for:
  1. Sodium content
  2. Carb content
  3. Energy density
  4. Concentration
  5. Osmolarity
  6. Glucose:Fructose ratio

I suspect these folks would agree though I have not read their complete article yet.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/345808685_Carbohydrate_supplementation_a_critical_review_of_recent_innovations


Would love to see evidence otherwise, because I'll be the first person in line buying sodium alginate!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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holy shit, a response like that was what i kinda wanted when making this post. super interesting info.

couple of follow up questions then

the table sugar you say at the end as being optimal combo, does this mean normal table sugar is glucose/fructose mixed at that 1:1 ratio?

how do you make your drinks? just add table sugar plus sodium citrate? or the same sodium but with 1 scoop of both fructose and dextrose? whats best

also is there any benefit to what some brands have started to advertise which is this "slow release" stuff? i've always thought that would just mean more complex = harder to break down in gut = slower release + more gut stress? i here of maltodextrin but also cluster-dextrin?

Is this all just BS selling stuff and in an ironman race of 9 hours surely i just need to absorb the max rate of energy i can while racing such as 100 grams of carbs per hour and having "slow release" carbs wouldnt make a difference apart from stressing my gut?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [ItaloBritt] [ In reply to ]
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ItaloBritt wrote:
Impressive knowledge thanks Alex. Further question, I was reading the ben greenfield book and he recommends including essential aminoacids in a carb sports drink for ironman in order to help avoid CNS fatigue issues, would you think this would impair the osmolality of the drink you suggest? Also what is your views on ketone eshers consumption as well, would you support a broad nutrition strategy hitting all the metabolic systems (say Ketoens+UCAN+Sugars+Electrolytes, even though not all in the same drink) or would you rather focus on more narrow sugar + electrolyte methabolism? I am talking about 9h+ ironman intensity so say 75% of FTP/60% of VO2 Max, ie primarily aerobic.


You're welcome. Happy to share!

Yes, slightly, but have not done the math. BCAA effects are likely minimal, though if shooting for complete optimization and money and time were no object, I might at least crunch numbers to include or test it a bit for gut tolerance. Easier than crunching numbers and more accurate for you personally.

I wouldn't ingest ketone esters during exercise.

Here's the only non-food things I currently ingest during or before exercise.
Table Sugar
Gatorade powder.
Beta Alanine, 1kg, Bulk Supplements via Amazon
Beet Root Powder 1kg, Bulk Supplements via Amazon
Citrulline Malate, Bulk Supplements via Amazon
Caffeine from Bulk Supps on Amazon is great. There may be equivalent products for up to about 50% cheaper if you scour amazon. 200mg caffeine per pill and nothing else is what you're looking for. Nothing fancy. The cheaper the better.
Creatine from Bulk Supplements on Amazon (NOT for triathletes lol. Sprint cyclist married to another sprint cyclist/triathlete here!.)
Sodium Citrate

I have zero affiliation with any supp company by the way. Just sharing what I personally use. (I'm cheap!)

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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LordFarquuad wrote:
holy shit, a response like that was what i kinda wanted when making this post. super interesting info.

couple of follow up questions then

the table sugar you say at the end as being optimal combo, does this mean normal table sugar is glucose/fructose mixed at that 1:1 ratio?

how do you make your drinks? just add table sugar plus sodium citrate? or the same sodium but with 1 scoop of both fructose and dextrose? whats best

also is there any benefit to what some brands have started to advertise which is this "slow release" stuff? i've always thought that would just mean more complex = harder to break down in gut = slower release + more gut stress? i here of maltodextrin but also cluster-dextrin?

Is this all just BS selling stuff and in an ironman race of 9 hours surely i just need to absorb the max rate of energy i can while racing such as 100 grams of carbs per hour and having "slow release" carbs wouldnt make a difference apart from stressing my gut?

Like this: (this was linked in my first long-winded post, but didn't show up as a link unless mouse hovers directly over it)
https://renaissanceperiodization.com/...intra-workout-drinks

TLDR: Gatorade + Sugar + Sodium Citrate. I don't purchase dextrose or fructose. Just Gatorade and sugar.

Maltodextrin is not slow-release though it has been marketed as such. It is great. Just not better than sugar, because you have to add fructose and targeting a 1:1 gluc:fruc ratio while doing so makes sugar have the lower osmolarity.

Cluster dextrin is also not better, nor is it slow-release. Neither is highly branched cluster dextrin (HBCD).

If anything actually IS slow-release, it will stress gut more. You're right.

Yes. All marketing. (and lots of supp companies genuinely believe that 2:1 is better because of older nutrition science dogma, in which case maltodextrin + fructose probably is better than dextrose + fructose.... marginally.)

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Alex, thanks for the details and links.


Another question (slightly off the sodium topic) is osmolality: so following your article for a standard 750ml bottle 8% would be 60 grams (240 cals regardless of the ration of the carb mix). That's on the low end of the "old school" digestible scale (60-90). So assuming maximal capacity is 100-120g, does that mean that in order to get maximum carbs in you should be consuming 1.5-2 bottles an hour? that's a lot of liquids.
This is assuming all liquid calories, but even if you use gels you would still need to water it down for optimal osmolality, so the question still remains.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [dgutstadt] [ In reply to ]
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dgutstadt wrote:
Alex, thanks for the details and links.


Another question (slightly off the sodium topic) is osmolality: so following your article for a standard 750ml bottle 8% would be 60 grams (240 cals regardless of the ration of the carb mix). That's on the low end of the "old school" digestible scale (60-90). So assuming maximal capacity is 100-120g, does that mean that in order to get maximum carbs in you should be consuming 1.5-2 bottles an hour? that's a lot of liquids.
This is assuming all liquid calories, but even if you use gels you would still need to water it down for optimal osmolality, so the question still remains.

Max capacity is probably on higher end for events where hydration isn't absolutely critical or being pushed to limits via climate/conditions. 120-150g/hr is doable for most folks, and is performance enhancing, if I had to guess, over 90-100g/hr, though this remains relatively unexamined because the dogma in the nutrition science field is so strong towards "90g/hr"

For 2-6-hr events targeting 100-150g/hr is wise.
When dehydration risk is higher, target 90-120g/hr.

Reason: your intuition is correct: it would be a lot of fluids to be able to consume >120g/hr at 8% solution. Using 10-18% solution is more optimal. The longer the event, the lower the percentage. The longer the event, the more hydration loss will occur. The reason for recommendations of 6-8% in the literature is for optimal hydration, not for optimal energetic fueling. It's a delicate balance... as you quickly realized with some number crunching!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
dgutstadt wrote:
Alex, thanks for the details and links.


Another question (slightly off the sodium topic) is osmolality: so following your article for a standard 750ml bottle 8% would be 60 grams (240 cals regardless of the ration of the carb mix). That's on the low end of the "old school" digestible scale (60-90). So assuming maximal capacity is 100-120g, does that mean that in order to get maximum carbs in you should be consuming 1.5-2 bottles an hour? that's a lot of liquids.
This is assuming all liquid calories, but even if you use gels you would still need to water it down for optimal osmolality, so the question still remains.


Max capacity is probably on higher end for events where hydration isn't absolutely critical or being pushed to limits via climate/conditions. 120-150g/hr is doable for most folks, and is performance enhancing, if I had to guess, over 90-100g/hr, though this remains relatively unexamined because the dogma in the nutrition science field is so strong towards "90g/hr"

For 2-6-hr events targeting 100-150g/hr is wise.
When dehydration risk is higher, target 90-120g/hr.

Reason: your intuition is correct: it would be a lot of fluids to be able to consume >120g/hr at 8% solution. Using 10-18% solution is more optimal. The longer the event, the lower the percentage. The longer the event, the more hydration loss will occur. The reason for recommendations of 6-8% in the literature is for optimal hydration, not for optimal energetic fueling. It's a delicate balance... as you quickly realized with some number crunching!

Thanks for the prompt reply.
That makes sense, I found I can take higher concentration in 70.3 than in a full IM (despite the higher intensity).
Its finding that balance that is key and avoiding a sugary sludge in the belly for the run (been there, done that)

thanks
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [dgutstadt] [ In reply to ]
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Bingo! Getting progressively more dilute as you go through events >5 hrs in length is a great idea.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Question for the group: So exactly would you go about training your gut? do you take in your target carb load during every workout? or do you only do this during long workouts?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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Train like you race as often as possible. Certainly for every workout that is 2+ hrs.

No need to target max fuel consumption during efforts <60 minutes.

Doing it as often as possible ensures you're both practiced, and that your gut is fully adapted for max absorption, but also ensures max training quality and physical training adaptations due to improved training quality and recovery.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Hm...
So that's a "No" to the notion of training fat metabolism by having some longer workouts with reduced carb fueling?

if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Train like you race as often as possible. Certainly for every workout that is 2+ hrs.

No need to target max fuel consumption during efforts <60 minutes.

Doing it as often as possible ensures you're both practiced, and that your gut is fully adapted for max absorption, but also ensures max training quality and physical training adaptations due to improved training quality and recovery.

Thanks for the reply! That makes sense but seems like a lot of extra calories. I'm used to being to do workouts under 2hrs with no fuel and then maybe 200-400cals for up to 3hrs that includes "real" work during the workout (not just zone 2). I'll try gradually uping my intake and see how things progress.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [FuzzyRunner] [ In reply to ]
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FuzzyRunner wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Train like you race as often as possible. Certainly for every workout that is 2+ hrs.

No need to target max fuel consumption during efforts <60 minutes.

Doing it as often as possible ensures you're both practiced, and that your gut is fully adapted for max absorption, but also ensures max training quality and physical training adaptations due to improved training quality and recovery.


Thanks for the reply! That makes sense but seems like a lot of extra calories. I'm used to being to do workouts under 2hrs with no fuel and then maybe 200-400cals for up to 3hrs that includes "real" work during the workout (not just zone 2). I'll try gradually uping my intake and see how things progress.

It is a lot more calories than most folks consume intra-training!

For related funny memes, see my instagram account in my signature. ;)

Hunger will drop the rest of the day, on average. Performance will improve. Most folks don't gain weight other than maybe 1-2 pounds of glycogen + water content up front when starting to fuel more aggressively.

Just make sure to eat a balanced meal immediately post training or risk rebound hypoglycemia.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Alex,

Is it safe to say that the Gatorade/table sugar ratio is just mixed to "flavor preference"?

Additionally, one of the reasons that I've used maltodextrin in my mixtures is because I don't perceive it as "sweet" as table sugar.
Last edited by: mkleive: Jan 12, 21 8:59
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mkleive] [ In reply to ]
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That's because maltodextrin isn't as sweet. Fructose is sweet, no matter what the source. I wonder how a 1:1 of maltodextrin and fructose compares to straight table sugar. FWIW, I find 6:1 maltodextrin to table sugar almost too sweet. I can't imagine what 90g of sugar in a regular bottle would taste like. That's roughly half a cup of sugar!



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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mgreer] [ In reply to ]
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I've made 1:1 combinations of maltodextrin to fructose and I think the "sweetness" is just perfect for me . . . and less sweet than table sugar alone. But looking at your graph my taste buds might just be confused.
Last edited by: mkleive: Jan 12, 21 11:21
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mkleive] [ In reply to ]
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mkleive wrote:
Is it safe to say that the Gatorade/table sugar ratio is just mixed to "flavor preference"?

More sugar is better because it moves the dial closer to 1:1. (and cheaper)

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mgreer] [ In reply to ]
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mgreer wrote:
That's because maltodextrin isn't as sweet. Fructose is sweet, no matter what the source. I wonder how a 1:1 of maltodextrin and fructose compares to straight table sugar. FWIW, I find 6:1 maltodextrin to table sugar almost too sweet. I can't imagine what 90g of sugar in a regular bottle would taste like. That's roughly half a cup of sugar!

Sugar is sweet for sure. No getting around it. I find sugar more palatable than the flavor intensities of other beverages. Chase with water. I always have water onboard to chase.

Have yet to find a way to make upper limits of carb absorption happen without water to chase, especially since I'm often doing training sessions where I don't want to consume the upper limit of 1-1.2L fluid per hour.

Front bottle is always carbs+sodium+water. Back bottle always water.

I often have front bottle concentrations of 30-40% (300-400g/L). 140g of carbs per hour containing a minimum of 70g fructose is just hard to make not sweet. So, I ultra-concentrate the front bottle and chase with water most the time. This mostly applies to 2-5-hr rides in not-super-sweaty conditions, in my personal case.

Fun anecdote:
Wife did Rapha Festive 500 in a single effort. (310-mi ride) I prepped bottles.
Each bottle contains:
1.25 cups sugar (250g carbs)
1 scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
2 tsp sodium citrate (~2000mg sodium)
1/8th tsp caffeine powder (200mg caffeine)
Water

Not pictured: 6 more 1L bottles of water.


Pretty much the only thing that didn't go wrong during her attempt, was her nutrition/hydration. She drank all 5 + a small meal + coffee, off the bike every 62 miles, plus half a back-up one of mine once she started having to slow down due to mechanicals. She weighs ~63kg, fyi. Total carb consumption during the 25 hrs of riding was ~2000g, and would have been closer to 2400g, had we planned for mechanical issues.

Read more here: https://www.strava.com/activities/4527655581

and here: https://blog.3t.bike/...estive-500-in-a-day/

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Whats the drink rate on a bottle holding 400g of carbs.

If I sip (like a mouthful give or take) a bottle every 5 mins I consume one in 40-45 mins... so.. 9 or so gulps.

Are you sipping 400g bottle every 15 -30 mins and like... 1 water bottle an hour? Almost treating each mouthful like a gel... small sips.

I assume that 400g bottle last you... 3-4hrs

I always felt with super dense bottles nutrition density consumption and absorption would be harder to get consistently right over an effort.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Mbellis5] [ In reply to ]
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Mbellis5 wrote:
Whats the drink rate on a bottle holding 400g of carbs.

If I sip (like a mouthful give or take) a bottle every 5 mins I consume one in 40-45 mins... so.. 9 or so gulps.

Are you sipping 400g bottle every 15 -30 mins and like... 1 water bottle an hour? Almost treating each mouthful like a gel... small sips.

I assume that 400g bottle last you... 3-4hrs

I always felt with super dense bottles nutrition density consumption and absorption would be harder to get consistently right over an effort.


For a 400g carb bottle: ~1/3 bottle per hour. Plus ~2/3 bottle water per hour. (1L bottles!)

Yep, treating the front bottle like a liquid-gel basically.

It took some practice to find out how much leeway I had for mistakes (overconsuming = stomach cramp).

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: Jan 15, 21 12:10
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I tried this recipe today and it seemed to work out fine for a 4hr ride.

My standard for long rides was 60g of Gatorade scoops x 3 24oz bottles, with about a half teaspoon of potassium salt each. I usually end up having to fill up on water once and I’d buy a gatorade or coke if I’m out for over 4 hours. This is pretty clearly leaner on carbs and Calories but it usually works OK for me.

If I had to make a somewhat hasty judgement on today’s ride, I might say I felt stronger towards the last hour... but the bottom line is that I’ll default to your recipe (still adding potassium salt) from now on.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [codygo] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome! Happy to help.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Played with this today on a bike/run brick.
Bike was Blender on Sufferfest. Quite a fun session, but sprinting on roller, NFF.
2 bottles for that 100 mins. Both bottles 120g maltodextrine/dextrose 2:1. No gut issues, felt pretty good as a session.
Change kit, get out on 45-50 mins easy z2.
2*150ml squeeze bottles, each w 40 g of 2:1. Again, no gut issues, felt comfy all the way.

Will keep going with this mix (have several kg of MD...), but interested re effects of heat and actually needing hydration. Was 2c in the garage when I started, and by the end of the run had started to attempt to snow (and blowing a howling gale ). I did run in fleece tights, gloves, long tech top and xc ski jacket, with 2* buffs to stay warm!
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [altayloraus] [ In reply to ]
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Malto plus dex? Or malto plus fructose?

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
mgreer wrote:
That's because maltodextrin isn't as sweet. Fructose is sweet, no matter what the source. I wonder how a 1:1 of maltodextrin and fructose compares to straight table sugar. FWIW, I find 6:1 maltodextrin to table sugar almost too sweet. I can't imagine what 90g of sugar in a regular bottle would taste like. That's roughly half a cup of sugar!


Sugar is sweet for sure. No getting around it. I find sugar more palatable than the flavor intensities of other beverages. Chase with water. I always have water onboard to chase.

Have yet to find a way to make upper limits of carb absorption happen without water to chase, especially since I'm often doing training sessions where I don't want to consume the upper limit of 1-1.2L fluid per hour.

Front bottle is always carbs+sodium+water. Back bottle always water.

I often have front bottle concentrations of 30-40% (300-400g/L). 140g of carbs per hour containing a minimum of 70g fructose is just hard to make not sweet. So, I ultra-concentrate the front bottle and chase with water most the time. This mostly applies to 2-5-hr rides in not-super-sweaty conditions, in my personal case.

Fun anecdote:
Wife did Rapha Festive 500 in a single effort. (310-mi ride) I prepped bottles.
Each bottle contains:
1.25 cups sugar (250g carbs)
1 scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
2 tsp sodium citrate (~2000mg sodium)
1/8th tsp caffeine powder (200mg caffeine)
Water

Not pictured: 6 more 1L bottles of water.


Pretty much the only thing that didn't go wrong during her attempt, was her nutrition/hydration. She drank all 5 + a small meal + coffee, off the bike every 62 miles, plus half a back-up one of mine once she started having to slow down due to mechanicals. She weighs ~63kg, fyi. Total carb consumption during the 25 hrs of riding was ~2000g, and would have been closer to 2400g, had we planned for mechanical issues.

Read more here: https://www.strava.com/activities/4527655581

and here: https://blog.3t.bike/...estive-500-in-a-day/

What would you recommend porportionately for a 500mL bottle? Or a bottle an hour?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [quinnserfa] [ In reply to ]
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quinnserfa wrote:
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Each bottle contains:
1.25 cups sugar (250g carbs)
1 scoop Gatorade (~60g carbs)
2 tsp sodium citrate (~2000mg sodium)
1/8th tsp caffeine powder (200mg caffeine)
Water

Not pictured: 6 more 1L bottles of water.
What would you recommend porportionately for a 500mL bottle? Or a bottle an hour?
Half of that. But, you probably want to be consuming more than that. Hence, we use larger bottles. 500mL bottles are tiny!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense, would you still consumer at a rate of a bottle an hour at 165 g of carbs? Also, what about the replenishment of calories during a ride?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [quinnserfa] [ In reply to ]
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quinnserfa wrote:
Makes sense, would you still consumer at a rate of a bottle an hour at 165 g of carbs? Also, what about the replenishment of calories during a ride?
I'd limit consumption to 150g/hr for sure. And make sure you're also consuming a 500mL (or more) bottle of water with the 500mL carb bottle.

Not sure what you mean re: bolded text.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Hutchinson, great stuff. I have read through multiple posts and I must be too dense to get this. Is Gatorade added for flavor or is it there to provide something that cane sugar won't?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [lonniecdams] [ In reply to ]
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I think you, and maybe others on Slowtwitch recently, may be confusing me, Dr. Alex Harrison, for Dr. Alex Hutchinson who is a prolific columnist and book author, but is not me. I think his PhD is in quantum computing and nanomechanics, but he's pretty adept in physiology and psychology and an accomplished athlete, too.

He's better written, and certainly more pleasing to the eye than I am, so I'll take any confusion as a compliment.

I could also be the one who is confused here so sorry if I'm putting my foot in my mouth. I could have sworn I saw this happen in another thread recently too. Maybe wishful thinking. ;)

Regardless, happy to continue helping folks where I can.

Gatorade is primarily added for flavor. It is used by some folks in larger proportions than for flavor alone, because they prefer a little closer to 2:1 ratio than 1:1 ratio for glucose:fructose. Although... Gatorade in AUS appears to be ~75% sucrose, so it's pretty close to 1:1 glucose:fructose itself. I have not seen sugar breakdown for Gatorade in USA officially. Gatorade markets that 2:1 is probably optimal when targeting 60-90g/hr carbs.

I propose they are wrong, and that they market that because that's the prevailing dogma in the field of endurance nutrition. I would bet/hope they know better, but suspect they don't care, and use sucrose because it's much cheaper, and more immediately palatable to most of the folks that drink their basic powder mix (non-endurance athletes or youth with lower durations of training.)

Some flavoring is important. Enjoyable flavoring drives consumption and when seeking maximum consumption during challenging efforts, minimizing further barriers to consumption is wise. Sucrose and sodium citrate both bring their own flavors to the table, and if consumed in isolation aren't very palatable to me. A small proportion of Gatorade or any other flavored endurance beverage fixes that for most folks.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr Harrison. My fault I apologize for my error. Thanks for being so understanding and professional about it too. Thanks for the help too.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [lonniecdams] [ In reply to ]
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Zero thanks needed for common courtesy for a very easy misunderstanding!

I include "Dr" in all my usernames at the suggestion of a friend of mine, purely for instant credibility on my academic expertise niches.

"Dr. Harrison" probably wears a suit or something. Dunno. I'm just a soigneur & wannabe preparer for my wife. Currently wearing tattered slippers & grease-covered running shorts in the garage of my RV..."Alex" feels more appropriate. :)

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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Harrison, I am curious on you take on nutrition for a 45 minute crit race. I rarely bring a full bottle, and use it more so for a dry mouth than nutrition itself. Good or bad? I saw you mention beetroot powder, and I have been experimenting with that as well, but struggle with the amount. I put a tablespoon or so in with a carnation instant breakfast drink to make it tolerable about 3 hours before my race, good or bad? My motto is, if I pee red it was enough, really have no clue and don't know the content of nitrate in the powder though. Would love to hear you suggestions for short intense racing. I am prone to kidney stones, and have noticed if I try to supplement beetroot several days in a row, my kidneys don't appreciate that. Thanks so much!
Last edited by: biker2035: Jul 9, 21 4:51
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [biker2035] [ In reply to ]
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If you notice any kidney response to beet root, I'd avoid. It's impossible to know nitrate content of the powder without lab testing.

Your approach sounds good for a 45min crit. Not much fueling needed, if any, in such a scenario. I'd be fueling actively during the warmup and maybe take 8-12oz of water with 20g carbs from Gatorade in it for the crit. Maybe even less Gatorade. 45min is short. If hot, though, I'd add 200-300mg sodium from sodium citrate and maybe make it closer to 16-20oz fluid.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Really helpful information, thank you for this.
Maybe you can help me out with the following.

Do you just use only the sodium citrate or do you use a combination of sodium citrate and sodium chloride, which is what I read is in most drinks or at least in most electrolytes addings.
And no potassium adding and/or magnesium?

Thanks,

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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Dr.AlexHarrison has changed my nutritional life for endurance sport.... I literally have tried it all and nothing worked for me or was subpar for my power/goal requirements.

Here is my simple big batch recipe;

2lbs (907 grams) of Maltodextrin
1.6lbs (725 grams) of fructose powder
12,700mg (13grams) or more of Sodium Citrate
100-120 grams of Gatorade Powder mix (more if you like a lot of flavor, I use Blue).

I put all of this in a huge mixing bowl and set it on my kitchen aid blender on the lowest setting for 5-10 minutes and then I put it into a storage tote of some sort. You will want to experiment with "how much" of it you can take but some guys can get away with 100+ grams of carbs.

I having a weaker stomach get away with about 60-70grams of this mix per bottle per hour and it makes me feel like a rocket.

Thanks agan Dr. Alex!!!!!!

Edit: This is for a 1:.08 Glucose/Fructose to Maltodextrin mix
Last edited by: teddygram: Sep 15, 21 12:04
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [TRIPRO] [ In reply to ]
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TRIPRO wrote:
Really helpful information, thank you for this.
Maybe you can help me out with the following.

Do you just use only the sodium citrate or do you use a combination of sodium citrate and sodium chloride, which is what I read is in most drinks or at least in most electrolytes addings.
And no potassium adding and/or magnesium?

Thanks,

Jeroen
Just the sodium citrate. This is becoming a really common question and has now made its way into some slides I'm putting together for a YouTube series. :)

I posit that the primary (only) reason for magnesium in sports beverages is to convince folks like you and me to put our money in beverage retailers' bank accounts.

There are very few things I (or anyone) can say for certain in sport & sport nutrition, so I won't yet claim absolute certainty with regard to not adding potassium to beverages. If there is a benefit... it's impossibly hard to measure it. And there are tradeoffs (osmolarity, monetary cost, time cost, flavor, increased risk of clinical and non-clinically relevant hyponatremia), which lead me to believe that if there is a net benefit, it's outweighed by the first and last of the listed tradeoffs, even if the middle three don't matter to you.

I do have a 1kg bag of potassium citrate. I have helped my wife prep for multiple >24-hr events, and all her "A" races from 60min to 5 hours, along with all her training. She is my most important athlete I coach. I usually make her bottles on the days that count. I have gone through a couple kg of sodium citrate.

I have yet to open the bag of potassium citrate. That should tell you what I think about it.

You can use the following as a completely flexible and informal guide to my language here on ST: ;)

"I have a hunch" = 60:40
"I suspect" = 80:20
"I think" = 90:10
"I'm pretty sure" = 95:5
"I'm virtually certain" = 99:1
"I'm certain enough that it always informs my decisions with regard to Michelle's racing & training" = 99.5:0.5

Then there is "I'm certain enough to claim it as an absolute, publicly on ST and youtube."

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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teddygram wrote:
Dr.AlexHarrison has changed my nutritional life for endurance sport.... I literally have tried it all and nothing worked for me or was subpar for my power/goal requirements.

Here is my simple big batch recipe;

2lbs (907 grams) of Maltodextrin
1.6lbs (725 grams) of fructose powder
12,700mg (13grams) or more of Sodium Citrate
100-120 grams of Gatorade Powder mix (more if you like a lot of flavor, I use Blue).

I put all of this in a huge mixing bowl and set it on my kitchen aid blender on the lowest setting for 5-10 minutes and then I put it into a storage tote of some sort. You will want to experiment with "how much" of it you can take but some guys can get away with 100+ grams of carbs.

I having a weaker stomach get away with about 60-70grams of this mix per bottle per hour and it makes me feel like a rocket.

Thanks agan Dr. Alex!!!!!!

Edit: This is for a 1:.08 Glucose/Fructose to Maltodextrin mix
You're very welcome! Happy, and humbled honestly, to have helped. My pleasure.

Fun fact that might help further in the future. If you can routinely use this mix in training, there is a good chance that you will be able to increase it to 1:0.9 in the future, and target 75g/hr. Our guts are particularly adaptable to fructose. I still need to read more of the literature on gut adaptations but it looks like adaptation to fructose overload is pretty substantial. This adaptation tends to work against folks with obesity because it makes fructose pass the gut more easily and produce less total satiety, but for athletes who have not struggled with obesity, it's pure gut training gold.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Dr Alex,

I had a few questions but wasn't sure if it was worth starting a new thread.

I'm interested in doing something like the above mix, but wasn't sure about the correct way to go about it. My standard nutrition for a 70.3 is 1 dose of 21.7g carbohydrate every 10km (about 15-16min) and 1 mouthful-ish of a hydration product from a 750mL bottle with another 38g of carbohydrate in it every 15km. I also carry another bottle of water that gets consumed over the course of the bike leg. I'm usually around the 2:30-2:35 bike split depending on all of the factors. That works out to be about 70g per hour from the nutrition product and about 15g per hour from the hydration product.

From the above recipe, how much of that would I require to get my 85-90g/hour of carbohydrate in say 2x 650mL bottles?

Thanks,
Ben
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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The most confusing in this thread is the measurements….I know we euros lost that’s why you guys kept using inches and cups and oz but……;-)
Grams would be great :-)
Other than that, why using the Gatorade powder if you wanna keep the ingredients simple?
I use malto, fructose (but in a 3:1 ratio), salt (since this thread from citrat), freshly pressed citrus and fruit juice (100%ish) for flavor.

-shoki
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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Ben,

I’m sure Dr.Alex will respond but the formula I mentioned/made makes life easy. It is 1 complete carb for every gram, so for your case if you want 85g/hr you simply weigh out 85grams of powder into a bottle and fill the rest of the bottle with water.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! Did you have to chase it with water or is it not too sweet?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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I have had a few PM’s about how to make the mix or where to get all the supply’s/tools.

Here is what I recommend for the Dr.Alex starter kit.

This is all available on Amazon.

Scale:

Ozeri ZK14-S Pronto Digital Multifunction Kitchen and Food Scale, Black, 8.25 https://www.amazon.com/...p_apip_k1VfqpSfXe2ot

Maltodextrin:

NOW Sports Nutrition, Carbo Gain Powder (Maltodextrin), Rapid Absorption, Energy Production, 8-Pound https://www.amazon.com/...JX8S4WN4SCRR02DH3W14

Fructose:

NOW Natural Foods, Fructose, Pure Crystalline Frustose, Excellent Substitute for Sugar, Certified Non-GMO and Kosher, 3-Pound (Packaging May Vary) https://www.amazon.com/...oding=UTF8&psc=1

Sodium citrate:

Judee's Sodium Citrate - 2lb - 100% Non-GMO, Keto-Friendly - Gluten-Free & Nut-Free - Food Grade - Great for Molecular Gastronomy Cooking https://www.amazon.com/...p_apip_rW6KHBANC52gM

Gatorade:

Gatorade Thirst Quencher Powder,... https://www.amazon.com/...ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Storage:

2 Pack - 1.28 Gallon White Square... https://www.amazon.com/...ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Keep in mind that the only items you should be changing in the formula is the sodium and Gatorade. If you want more sodium you can increase the citrate (although the formula I provided has a lot) and if you want to add more or less flavor you can change the Gatorade amount or flavor. The Gatorade is acting as some electrolyte and flavoring in the system.

This 1:.08 recommendation is what most of the most popular formula companies are currently using. If you want a 100g/hr carb bottle simply weigh out 100g of powder into your bottle and there you have it.

I recommend you start out with 50g/hr and see how it does over 1-2 rides and increase from there. I found that 100g was too much for me but 50g left me hungry, no matter what I had muscular power/endurance however.
Last edited by: teddygram: Sep 16, 21 4:04
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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You are very welcome!

I mix that in 22oz bottles, I only use that bottle as my fuel/hydration source per hour. The taste in all honesty reminds me of slightly sweet cold brewed tea. It is a taste you can certainly get use to IMO, and per my last post you can alter the flavor pretty easy.

Say you make the mix with the 100g of Gatorade and find that you want more flavor. Just add another 50g of Gatorade to your entire mix and stir again, you can repeat this until it’s either where you want it or you went too far hahah.
Last edited by: teddygram: Sep 16, 21 4:04
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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More directed at Alex, but what is the difference in using 1maltodextrin:1fructose mix , vs just using table sugar/sucrose, (1 glucose : 1 fructose). Is there a benefit to malto vs glucose? Are they not both fast digesting sugars, and isn't malto just chained glucose? Not a science guy. Just a google guy.
Last edited by: ADabs: Sep 16, 21 9:30
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [ADabs] [ In reply to ]
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ADabs wrote:
what is the difference in using 1maltodextrin:1fructose mix , vs just using table sugar/sucrose, (1 glucose : 1 fructose).

He's covered that before. Only difference is price.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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teddygram wrote:

NOW Sports Nutrition, Carbo Gain Powder (Maltodextrin), Rapid Absorption, Energy Production, 8-Pound https://www.amazon.com/...JX8S4WN4SCRR02DH3W14


CarboGain is usually quite a bit cheaper at GNC

https://www.gnc.com/energy-supplements/807017.html
Quote Reply
Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [shoki] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
shoki wrote:
The most confusing in this thread is the measurements….I know we euros lost that’s why you guys kept using inches and cups and oz but……;-)
Grams would be great :-)
Other than that, why using the Gatorade powder if you wanna keep the ingredients simple?
I use malto, fructose (but in a 3:1 ratio), salt (since this thread from citrat), freshly pressed citrus and fruit juice (100%ish) for flavor.
IIRC, another user asked specifically for how they would measure things to put in a bottle. The simplest way here in the states is to measure in cups for sugar. Dumb-American question incoming: what do you use to measure volumes with? What do you call them? haha Is it still called a measuring cup, but something like "a 200mL measuring cup?" Do people just refer to volumes of fluid as 0.2 L, for example? or 200 mL? (I prefer using mL & L, mg & g, for most things, so happy to answer any of your questions in that way!)

FYI: you'll have a little better gut tolerance if you move to more like 3:2 malto:fruc. Sweeter, yes, but less likely to overload glucose transport ability in the gut. Somewhere between 2:1 and 1:1 glucose:fructose is virtually always better than 3:1.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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If I'm following your math right, I think you just need to add 10-15g sugar per hour. Forget the above formula, if you're looking to just add stuff to your current mix. Add 10-15g straight sugar. If you want higher salt, just add table salt or sodium citrate to bump up your hourly totals to your desired targets or ranges. Let me know if I'm not answering your questions.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [mgreer] [ In reply to ]
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mgreer wrote:
ADabs wrote:
what is the difference in using 1maltodextrin:1fructose mix , vs just using table sugar/sucrose, (1 glucose : 1 fructose).


He's covered that before. Only difference is price.
Sucrose works as well as maltodextrin:fructose, and glucose:fructose 1:1 mixtures. >>90g/hr is optimal
https://www.trainerroad.com/...n-a-bottle/30328/204

Running intra-workout fueling, sweetness discussion
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t=last-7417228#first

I use sucrose. I do not have any maltodextrin or fructose in my possession and probably never will. :) (okay maybe if I decide I want to target somewhere between 1:0.8 and 1:1 gluc:fruc, and want to minimize sweetness marginally..... unlikely though).

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanx a lot for the reply, will try it out.
We usually go by liters for volume, smaller is easy math. (Cups over here are not a standard size, so cups and spoons can be a little tricky for measuring haha)

-shoki
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Ok. Awesome.

The product that I use is literally blood orange juice, maltodextrin, fructose, sodium bicarbonate and sea salt as per the ingredients list but I'm willing to try something home made to fuel my training sessions as well as my racing. It comes in 500g bags so I burn through it fairly quickly.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a video out there showing this or maybe some simple instructions? There's a lot of info in this thread and something like this video would help simplify the process.

Also, thanks to Dr. Harrison and everyone else for sharing the insights. It's sincerely appreciated.
Last edited by: Alex M: Sep 16, 21 18:07
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Alex M] [ In reply to ]
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Soon!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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This is likely a dumb question, but I would like to get some clarification on the ratios of malto/fructose.

Specifically if you were targeting a ratio of 1:0.8 is that referring to the ratio of total grams of each ingredient or the ratio of total carbs in each? I assume that this would be for total grams? Probably an insignificant number, but since maltodextrin is not 1:1 weight to carbs I suppose in a large enough batch it might be relevant.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [dave_o] [ In reply to ]
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Ratio of total carbs in each. Thankfully, it very likely will not matter either way. Reason: biology is much messier than chemistry.

On inspection of maltodextrin from bulk supplements I see that there is trace sodium (10mg) in the product, plus 1990mg of something else per 30-gram serving of product.

They list 28g of carbohydrate per 30 gram serving.

Per Cargill food grade maltodextrin, it looks rest of it is moisture. ie. water. Seems common for food grade maltodextrin to be around 6% moisture.

So, for 100g carbs, you'd want ~106 grams of product. This applies to maltodextrin only. I have not investigated other carb sources for moisture content.

sugar has such a small serving size that I'm unsure if the same would exist if the serving size were listed as 30g vs. the typical "8g." I bring this up because I'm virtually certain that most of the research, and maybe all of it, using sugar as a component of workout nutrition assumes zero moisture content in the sugar. No chance are exercise scientists going to be checking for moisture content that doesn't smack them in the face on the label, in most cases. Only exercise scientists with strong backgrounds in chemistry (rare) are going to investigate this. I hadn't, and I minored in chemistry, which generally puts my chemistry knowledge in the top 1% of my peers. Most PhD's in ex phys come from exercise science undergrads.

Thus, I think for research regarding sucrose consumption during exercise, all numbers reported assume that grams of product == grams of carbohydrate from sucrose, which may or may not be true. But that allows us as end users and readers of the literature to assume that grams of carb from sucrose == grams of product, for our endurance beverage formulation purposes.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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teddygram wrote:
I have had a few PM’s about how to make the mix or where to get all the supply’s/tools.

Here is what I recommend for the Dr.Alex starter kit.

This is all available on Amazon.

Scale:

Ozeri ZK14-S Pronto Digital Multifunction Kitchen and Food Scale, Black, 8.25 https://www.amazon.com/...p_apip_k1VfqpSfXe2ot

Maltodextrin:

NOW Sports Nutrition, Carbo Gain Powder (Maltodextrin), Rapid Absorption, Energy Production, 8-Pound https://www.amazon.com/...JX8S4WN4SCRR02DH3W14

Fructose:

NOW Natural Foods, Fructose, Pure Crystalline Frustose, Excellent Substitute for Sugar, Certified Non-GMO and Kosher, 3-Pound (Packaging May Vary) https://www.amazon.com/...oding=UTF8&psc=1

Sodium citrate:

Judee's Sodium Citrate - 2lb - 100% Non-GMO, Keto-Friendly - Gluten-Free & Nut-Free - Food Grade - Great for Molecular Gastronomy Cooking https://www.amazon.com/...p_apip_rW6KHBANC52gM

Gatorade:

Gatorade Thirst Quencher Powder,... https://www.amazon.com/...ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Storage:

2 Pack - 1.28 Gallon White Square... https://www.amazon.com/...ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Keep in mind that the only items you should be changing in the formula is the sodium and Gatorade. If you want more sodium you can increase the citrate (although the formula I provided has a lot) and if you want to add more or less flavor you can change the Gatorade amount or flavor. The Gatorade is acting as some electrolyte and flavoring in the system.

This 1:.08 recommendation is what most of the most popular formula companies are currently using. If you want a 100g/hr carb bottle simply weigh out 100g of powder into your bottle and there you have it.

I recommend you start out with 50g/hr and see how it does over 1-2 rides and increase from there. I found that 100g was too much for me but 50g left me hungry, no matter what I had muscular power/endurance however.

What are your thoughts on this study with ratios?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26373645/
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Any benefit or negative to using Gatorade Endurance vs Gatorade with table sugar+sodium citrate?

You will never, in your life, have a chance like this again.
If I were you, I would not pass this up. I would not let this go by...this is rare.
Come on...what harm??
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Ratio of total carbs in each. Thankfully, it very likely will not matter either way. Reason: biology is much messier than chemistry.

On inspection of maltodextrin from bulk supplements I see that there is trace sodium (10mg) in the product, plus 1990mg of something else per 30-gram serving of product.

They list 28g of carbohydrate per 30 gram serving.

Per Cargill food grade maltodextrin, it looks rest of it is moisture. ie. water. Seems common for food grade maltodextrin to be around 6% moisture.

So, for 100g carbs, you'd want ~106 grams of product. This applies to maltodextrin only. I have not investigated other carb sources for moisture content.

sugar has such a small serving size that I'm unsure if the same would exist if the serving size were listed as 30g vs. the typical "8g." I bring this up because I'm virtually certain that most of the research, and maybe all of it, using sugar as a component of workout nutrition assumes zero moisture content in the sugar. No chance are exercise scientists going to be checking for moisture content that doesn't smack them in the face on the label, in most cases. Only exercise scientists with strong backgrounds in chemistry (rare) are going to investigate this. I hadn't, and I minored in chemistry, which generally puts my chemistry knowledge in the top 1% of my peers. Most PhD's in ex phys come from exercise science undergrads.

Thus, I think for research regarding sucrose consumption during exercise, all numbers reported assume that grams of product == grams of carbohydrate from sucrose, which may or may not be true. But that allows us as end users and readers of the literature to assume that grams of carb from sucrose == grams of product, for our endurance beverage formulation purposes.

What do you think about this study?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26373645/
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve read through this tread at least 4 times. Videos would greatly help. In the interim, hoping you can comment.

Looking for suggestions for a concentrated 22oz bottle for a 3 hr ride.

My current mix :
3 Scoops of Skratch + 4 Scoops of Carbo Pro + 2 tsp of Sodium Citrate.

After reading this thread am I correct in thinking that I should replace the Carbo Pro with table sugar and add caffeine? If so, in what amounts? Any other suggestions?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Bryan!] [ In reply to ]
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I followed the formula that Dr. Harrison posted:

1.25 cups of table sugar
1 scoop of standard gatorade powder
1 TSP of sodium citrate
Optional caffeine

Combined all that into a 750ml bottle that would get me through 3 hours.

Used the approach at Augusta 70.3 and set a PR and again at IMFL which was my first full. I ended up taking a couple of Maurten Gels and eating a couple of bananas on the bike as well, just because my body wanted something different. I got off the bike and felt strong throughout the entire run leg. Saved a good bit of money too, thinking I should send the good Dr. a tip.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Bryan!] [ In reply to ]
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Bryan,

I am not sure if this was directed at me or not, however its pretty easy if you follow my formula plan.

The first thing you determine is how many carbs per hour you can handle. So if you can take 100g then you simply make a 300g bottle. You then mark the bottle out as 1/3 and can squeeze 1/3 of the bottle out into whatever hydration system you have and top with water. or you can sip the concentrated bottle as you go with the goal of taking a 1/3 of it by the end of the hour.

I hope this helps
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [MrTri123] [ In reply to ]
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MrTri123,

Dr. Alex and my formula meets the exact quote of that situation here;

Here
Last edited by: teddygram: Nov 22, 21 5:31
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [jf64k] [ In reply to ]
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jf64k wrote:
Any benefit or negative to using Gatorade Endurance vs Gatorade with table sugar+sodium citrate?
Nope, not really. Just a little more pricey. And need to add a little less sodium.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Bryan!] [ In reply to ]
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Bryan! wrote:
I’ve read through this tread at least 4 times. Videos would greatly help. In the interim, hoping you can comment.

Looking for suggestions for a concentrated 22oz bottle for a 3 hr ride.

My current mix :
3 Scoops of Skratch + 4 Scoops of Carbo Pro + 2 tsp of Sodium Citrate.

After reading this thread am I correct in thinking that I should replace the Carbo Pro with table sugar and add caffeine? If so, in what amounts? Any other suggestions?

Alacrity Endurance launches shortly!

It'll cover all things endurance science, but with a very strong emphasis on nutrition/fueling info.

Product reviews too. I've got $700 worth of Skratch, EFS, Tailwind, and dozens more sitting on my living room floor just waiting for production. :)

In your case, yes, use sugar in place of carbo pro. All else looks pretty good!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Parkland wrote:
I followed the formula that Dr. Harrison posted:

1.25 cups of table sugar
1 scoop of standard gatorade powder
1 TSP of sodium citrate
Optional caffeine

Combined all that into a 750ml bottle that would get me through 3 hours.

Used the approach at Augusta 70.3 and set a PR and again at IMFL which was my first full. I ended up taking a couple of Maurten Gels and eating a couple of bananas on the bike as well, just because my body wanted something different. I got off the bike and felt strong throughout the entire run leg. Saved a good bit of money too, thinking I should send the good Dr. a tip.

This is awesome! Rather than tip, you can subscribe to our youtube channel, launching soon.

Serious congrats on the PRs. If there are two things I love doing, it's helping folks exploit their performance ability with proper fueling, and saving people time & money while they do it. Your story is like a battle cry to me :)

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
Parkland wrote:
I followed the formula that Dr. Harrison posted:

1.25 cups of table sugar
1 scoop of standard gatorade powder
1 TSP of sodium citrate
Optional caffeine

Combined all that into a 750ml bottle that would get me through 3 hours.

Used the approach at Augusta 70.3 and set a PR and again at IMFL which was my first full. I ended up taking a couple of Maurten Gels and eating a couple of bananas on the bike as well, just because my body wanted something different. I got off the bike and felt strong throughout the entire run leg. Saved a good bit of money too, thinking I should send the good Dr. a tip.

This is awesome! Rather than tip, you can subscribe to our youtube channel, launching soon.

Serious congrats on the PRs. If there are two things I love doing, it's helping folks exploit their performance ability with proper fueling, and saving people time & money while they do it. Your story is like a battle cry to me :)

Done. Looking forward to the content!
Quote Reply
Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Paging Dr Alex!

First of all, sent you a lengthy message on Instagram. Realised that was a bit of a dog act so thought I'd reach out here which might also benefit others in the pursuit of freedom.

I've acquired my sugar and Gatorade powder and I'm having either a massive overthinking moment, or I'm an absolute potato.

The sugar that I bought was 1kg of your white table sugar and the only Gatorade powder that is available in Australia now is the 560g Lemon Lime flavour, so I grabbed a tub of that. Working backwards off your ratio from what you dished out to your wife for her Festive 500 effort, that worked out to be 1kg of sugar and 9 scoops of the Gatorade, because the scoop size in Australia is tiny in comparison to what you're dealing with in the USA. According to the label, 2 scoops makes 1L, with 250mL being a serving size of 15.9g CHO, therefore 1 scoop is 32g CHO.

I have 6 weeks until my next race so I kinda need to start training my gut with your magic mix as soon as possible, so I'll be working to the 90g/hour that I've been rocking previously and then building up from there, assuming that I don't have an explosive consequence in training.

Where I'm absolutely struggling, is that in my brand new tub of powdered gold, I have 1000g of CHO from the sugar, and 288g of CHO from the Gatorade powder, giving a total of 1288g of CHO. When I prep for my next training rides and runs (pun intended), how much of this mix should I be dishing out per 1000mL bottle? Should I be estimating how much of the mix is in a generic scoop and working backwards from there? Should I be measuring by weight? Should I be assuming that 1g of mix has 1g of CHO and weighing it out to match my training duration? What's the best way to do this from here?

The other factor that I'm considering is that I'm trying to equate it back to what I have been using in the past so that I can work out if I'm going to be carrying more volume or less volume than what I have previously. For reference, my old product was 2 generic scoops (about 23g weight for 21.7g CHO according to the label on the nutrition product), so I'd like to know how many of those generic scoops I need of the new stuff to equal my old stuff.

Does any of this make any sense? Am I just a potato?

Ben
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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BNothling wrote:
Should I be measuring by weight? Should I be assuming that 1g of mix has 1g of CHO and weighing it out to match my training duration?
That's a pretty reasonable approach. I don't weigh anything though. I just assume that 1/4 cup of sugar is 50g carbs and use measuring cups and a funnel to get it into the bottles. Should work the same for the roughly 4:1 sugar:Gatorade mix you made.
BNothling wrote:
The other factor that I'm considering is that I'm trying to equate it back to what I have been using in the past so that I can work out if I'm going to be carrying more volume or less volume than what I have previously. For reference, my old product was 2 generic scoops (about 23g weight for 21.7g CHO according to the label on the nutrition product), so I'd like to know how many of those generic scoops I need of the new stuff to equal my old stuff.
Your new sugar-Gatorade mix will weigh out roughly the same.
BNothling wrote:
Am I just a potato?
No but if you used potatoes as your fuel, the math gets much more complicated. ;)

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Harrison, I just wanted to let you know I read every post you do. So informative. I bought your book to support all the free content you give us and the book has a wealth of information too! I am trying to increase my carb uptake and was wondering if you could give some guidance. Last season, I did around 80-85 carbs/hr. I am trying to get up to 100 but I seem to get burpy at 100. I have been trying this in my workouts for about 4 weeks now. Here is my recipe.

.5 cup of granulated sugar. 500mg of sodium citrate.

I don't add any flavoring because I am fine with just sugar water. Is there a process that I should be following to increase. Did I make too much of a jump for .4 of a cup to .5 cup?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [lonniecdams] [ In reply to ]
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Might be worth going 4:1 sugar:maltodextrin and seeing how that treats you. There IS some individuality in response to various mixes. Just MUCH less individuality than most folks (and the supp industry) would lead one to believe. Play with it a little.

Your jump up in carbs/hr is typically doable but it might not hurt to just make the jump to 90g/hr first.

I'm building an app that is going to coach people through this process. Don't tell anyone ;)

As cliche as it sounds, your support is appreciated tremendously and it's support like that that makes it possible for me to contribute freely the way that I do.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the reply mate. Appreciate it.

I guess my concern stems from the fact that my old product worked out to be 2 scoops for every 2.5km run or 10km on the bike so I was looking for a similarly simple formula for calculating how much to take.

I'll do the maths on how many scoops fit in a 1/4 cup and what that works out to be and work backwards from there.

Whilst waiting for your response I weighed a scoop of old vs new and the old scoop was 10g of product whereas the new is 20g. Not sure if that changes anything with your recommendations?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry I'm being dense here. I'm not following. Can you spell out the confusion a bit more?

The surefire way to make sure you're getting the desired amounts of carbs is to weigh it out. Then figure out what percentage of volume that precise weight occupies in any scoop size you like, so that in the future you can just scoop a known weight out very easily.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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It's definitely not you being dense. Just me.

If I'm working to the knowledge that 10g of the mix is 10g of CHO, even I can work it out from there.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's a pretty reasonable assumption. It's very likely less than 10% error, and that level of error of measurement is pretty acceptable when it comes to implementation of sports nutrition.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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What the deal with Isomultulose? [ In reply to ]
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Are these "low-gi" complex sugars (like isomaltulose/palatinose) any better for long (>10hour) endurance events?

Appreciate all your input here; thank you for your very informative content.
Last edited by: olmec: Jan 24, 22 2:11
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Re: What the deal with Isomultulose? [olmec] [ In reply to ]
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olmec wrote:
Are these "low-gi" complex sugars (like isomaltulose/palatinose) any better for long (>10hour) endurance events?

Appreciate all your input here; thank you for your very informative content.
No, definitely not. They just slow down / reduce what you're able intake comfortably.

Their only benefit is that they will steady out your blood sugar... but at the much greater cost of reducing it over the course of a long event, and reducing the amount of fluid, sodium, and other carbs/sugars you're able to comfortably intake.

They were a great marketing idea. Nothing more.

Youtube vid coming up on this topic this spring.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: What the deal with Isomultulose? [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for this, super helpful and appreciated.

Here's the thing: I can knock off a full IM using isomaltulose (I admit that I was a victim to the marketing) without any GI issue, no bonking and can race super hard. I then go into the desert, start racing when its 40°C/104°F and after 11 hours (down to about 12°C/54°F in the night) I'm wrecked: nausea, inability to eat, just fall apart. I can take on fluids that carry electrolytes, but no coke, no sugary drinks, nada; and given that I've got another 12 hours to go, I obviously fail. This was on my second attempt too. Its getting embarrassing.

Looking to drastically redo diet, and so the CHO/SCH rabbit hole led me here. I enjoyed https://doi.org/...7/s00421-020-04534-y and note with interest this conclusion of theirs (supports your comments):
Quote:
These findings are supported by Oost- huyse et al. (2015) who reported increased gastrointestinal distress and impaired performance with during-exercise (2 h cycling at 60% VO2max + 16 km time-trial) ingestion of isomaltulose versus glucose/fructose (63 g·h−1).
Quote Reply
Re: What the deal with Isomultulose? [olmec] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
olmec wrote:
Thank you for this, super helpful and appreciated.

Here's the thing: I can knock off a full IM using isomaltulose (I admit that I was a victim to the marketing) without any GI issue, no bonking and can race super hard. I then go into the desert, start racing when its 40°C/104°F and after 11 hours (down to about 12°C/54°F in the night) I'm wrecked: nausea, inability to eat, just fall apart. I can take on fluids that carry electrolytes, but no coke, no sugary drinks, nada; and given that I've got another 12 hours to go, I obviously fail. This was on my second attempt too. Its getting embarrassing.

Looking to drastically redo diet, and so the CHO/SCH rabbit hole led me here. I enjoyed https://doi.org/...7/s00421-020-04534-y and note with interest this conclusion of theirs (supports your comments):
Quote:
These findings are supported by Oost- huyse et al. (2015) who reported increased gastrointestinal distress and impaired performance with during-exercise (2 h cycling at 60% VO2max + 16 km time-trial) ingestion of isomaltulose versus glucose/fructose (63 g·h−1).

Most important point of consideration for you: dehydration compromises gut absorption ability to the extent that you may no longer be able to absorb 50-60g/hr of any carb source, even more easily digestible options. Hence, hydration is supremely important. Therefore, don't use slower carb sources because they may impair your ability to consume adequate sodium and fluid.

Even if you're forced to use lower-than-optimal carb intake rates, it will be better for you to use more rapidly absorbable options (Maltodextrin from Bulk Supplements, via Amazon + Fructose from Bulk Supplements on Amazon, or sugar or some combo), because they'll allow greater fluid and sodium consumption with less GI distress risk, and thus, better hydration.

Better hydration --→ greater ability to absorb more carbs past 10 hours into your event.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: What the deal with Isomultulose? [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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ps. I have no affiliation with Bulk Supps or Amazon, just happen to have those links handy in textexpander.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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So over the weekend, I done goofed with my first trials with the Dr Alex mix.

My 20km long run was about 140g of mix in a 620mL bottle (about a 22% mix) being carried by my Mum who was riding along beside me. Felt a bit uncomfortable at about the 8km mark, made the safety stop at about 10km where I had a bit of GI upset, felt a bit woozy sitting there and then was able to continue the run without too many other issues. Felt a bit crap when I got home, but had another bottle of water and came good reasonably quickly after that. I understand that it was just a bit too concentrated, but was a victim of circumstance.

My 100km TT ride was 180g of mix spread across 2 500mL Elite bottles with a 750mL bottle and another 600mL bottle of water for chasing. The nutrition went in much better and I was able to consume all of the fluids and calories evenly across the ride (2:45 duration). I did notice that I started to feel a bit foggy at around the 80km mark, and was starting to lose focus and feel a bit out-of-body, to the point where I contemplated stopping, but it passed and I was able to get it done. A quick transition and a solid pee and I was able to complete a 10km ROTB as well (although this was done without nutrition). I had no issues on the run at all with anything GI. I know that the bike CHO/hour ratio was lower than it should have been, and lower than I'm used to with my other product, but I've never experienced the fogginess before.

Has anyone else experienced this or have any advice to circumvent that? I'm keen to persist with this mix and just want to get it right.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure Dr. Harrison will chime in here but did you add any sodium to your mixes (sodium is really important for absorption)? Also, I've noticed some GI issues if I don't take in enough water with the higher sugar mixes so make sure you are taking in enough water.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BNothling wrote:
So over the weekend, I done goofed with my first trials with the Dr Alex mix.

My 20km long run was about 140g of mix in a 620mL bottle (about a 22% mix) being carried by my Mum who was riding along beside me. Felt a bit uncomfortable at about the 8km mark, made the safety stop at about 10km where I had a bit of GI upset, felt a bit woozy sitting there and then was able to continue the run without too many other issues. Felt a bit crap when I got home, but had another bottle of water and came good reasonably quickly after that. I understand that it was just a bit too concentrated, but was a victim of circumstance.

My 100km TT ride was 180g of mix spread across 2 500mL Elite bottles with a 750mL bottle and another 600mL bottle of water for chasing. The nutrition went in much better and I was able to consume all of the fluids and calories evenly across the ride (2:45 duration). I did notice that I started to feel a bit foggy at around the 80km mark, and was starting to lose focus and feel a bit out-of-body, to the point where I contemplated stopping, but it passed and I was able to get it done. A quick transition and a solid pee and I was able to complete a 10km ROTB as well (although this was done without nutrition). I had no issues on the run at all with anything GI. I know that the bike CHO/hour ratio was lower than it should have been, and lower than I'm used to with my other product, but I've never experienced the fogginess before.

Has anyone else experienced this or have any advice to circumvent that? I'm keen to persist with this mix and just want to get it right.


I put 1000 calories in 28 ounces pre race

1 bottle on the bike 1000 calories 28 ounces of water

It’s sweet but it was fine for me

Was fine last week in a half distance race
Last edited by: MrTri123: Jan 25, 22 13:54
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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thanks for sharing!

with your mix, if one were to go with 100 g of powder mix for 100 g of carb bottle, how much mgs of sodium would be in that bottle?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [raulsan] [ In reply to ]
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How is it going raulsan!

If you follow my recipe it makes right around 4lbs of mix.

So if we do some simple math.

4lbs = 1814 grams

1814g/100 = 18

18 bottles of nutrition can be made with the recipe at that carb load.

SO.... 13 grams of sodium citrate equates to 12,700mg

12,700mg / 18 = 705mg of sodium per bottle.

I hope that helps, for the record I have started putting 20grams of sodium citrate in my mix which is giving roughly 1,111mg of sodium citrate per race bottle in theory.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
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thanks!

i was trying to double check my math and later thought an easier question was to ask how many servings did your mix come out to.

i also wanted to be closer to 1,000 mg per bottle.

thanks once again.

r
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [raulsan] [ In reply to ]
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You are very welcome!

Dr. Alex is the mad scientist behind the mix, I simply made the formula.
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Re: What the deal with Isomultulose? [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr Alex,

Read your posts many times over and thanks for all your input. I'm looking for clarification I've got my maths correct (afraid I'm going to use metric....)

I'm UK based so Gatorade powder isn't available. I'm going to try using High 5, which is probably our cheapest alternative, plus I have a tub on the go. It's a 2:1 maltodextrin/fructose mix (32% fructose). Normal mix is two scoops to 500ml, so I'll base this on the same liquid volume.

One scoop (23.5g) is 22g carb, which I've calculated to be 14.96g malto and 7.04g fructose, so near enough 15g/7g.

If I add 80g of table sugar that should give me an extra 40g each of glucose and fructose, so I end up with a total of 55g glucose and 47g fructose, or 1:0.85?

The high 5 has electrolytes, designed for two scoops per 500ml. Thinking I'll add half a high 5 zero electrolyte tab to each bottle to bring the quantities back in range. Or how much sodium citrate would you suggest in place of the tab?
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Re: What the deal with Isomultulose? [jn46] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry I missed this inquiry!

Depends on your sweat rate as to how much sodium citrate you ought to add to the beverage.

Your carb math looks great. Right in line with our

Should be a sodium video coming out next week or the following!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: What the deal with Isomultulose? [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for getting back. I tried the mix with High 5 bit it didn't sit well.

There is a fairly new brand here in the UK called STYRKR, very similar to Maurten but 90g carb (2:1 malto to fructose mix), with 2g electroloyte and 3g of L glutamine. It's a very pleasant mix and cheaper than Maurten, but still pricey for anything other than key sessions and racing.

I bought bulk bags of the ingredients and now mix my own, although looking to up the fructose by 10g. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the addition of L glutamine.

This is all in a small bottle, 500ml of water.
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Re: What the deal with Isomultulose? [jn46] [ In reply to ]
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jn46 wrote:
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the addition of L glutamine.
Glutamine is generally pretty useless, and if it does what it's marketers say, which is often something like assisting with recovery via blocking inflammation (it probably doesn't), then it may actually HINDER your adaptations to the training you're doing. In general, things that help you "recover" better do so by reducing inflammation. Reducing inflammation tends to reduce adaptation to training, unfortunately! I wouldn't bother with the glutamine.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [LordFarquuad] [ In reply to ]
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I used the information in this thread in a surprisingly useful way.

I have type 1 diabetes and most of my fueling strategies revolve around controlling that. As a side benefit I end up fairly well hydrated and really well fueled. Drinks are Skratch, Cytomax, Gatorade, plus gels, bars, chews, even granola bars.

The unique problem I fight is unexpected low blood sugar within a workout. Treatment is easy, 20-30g of carbs quickly and within half an hour it’s fine. This is in addition to the typical fueling strategy for the workout. Gels have been my go-to but I get kind of tired of them and if I don’t need them then two gels have just been mashed up in my pocket for no good reason.

What I’ve done based on this thread is mix 15g Gatorade powder with 30 grams table sugar and 1/16 teaspoon sodium citrate in a gel flask half full of water. I backed off the sodium from 1/8tsp initially. In addition to whatever planned nutrition, I’ll bring this for unexpected lows. It goes down quickly (if a touch strong), absorbs quickly and if it’s not needed I’m only washing a few pennies of sugar down the drain.

Thanks for the great idea!
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Karl.n wrote:
I have type 1 diabetes and most of my fueling strategies revolve around controlling that.

The unique problem I fight is unexpected low blood sugar within a workout.
I think this problem is one area where your body still behaves like someone without T1D. Muscle sensitivity to carbs goes way up (as you've noticed, clearly) during exercise and if you're not on top of consistent fueling, even absent insulin dosing, you can have blood sugar lows. Glad the Gatorade+sugar approach has been handy :)

In case you want to resurrect low blood sugar faster, I suspect if you use a bit more water in that gel flask, you'll get faster absorption of the sugar into your bloodstream.

Peak fluid absorption rates tends to happen below 8% solution, but that's not the case for peak carb absorption rates. I don't know if optimal beverage concentration for peak carb absorption rates has been well studied yet, but I'd bet it somewhere above 8%. Probably 10-16% solution if I had to hazard a guess, but I could see it being higher in a well-hydrated state if exercise intensity is low.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Just posting this here after a DM discussion with Dr Alex. I want to preface this by saying that he knows where I'm coming from and I'm not trying to undermine his work. I've been using his mix (dubbed Alacrity Mix) for a few months now and haven't had an issue with it. I've adapted to the 100g CHO/hour and everything is ticking along. I've started seeing a dietician and she asked about my intra-training mix. When I told her, this was her response and after asking Dr Alex for his opinion and insight into her response, we decided it best to post it here so Alex could respond and hopefully enlighten the rest of us.


---


The reason I queried this is because of the following;
  • Glucose (one of the forms of CHO you're taking on, approximately 52% of your current mix) maximally oxidises at 1g/min - which obviously then caps us out at 60g/hour. If this is 52% of our mix, this means we are roughly getting 52g/hour.
  • To achieve higher CHO oxidation rates during exercise, we need to use multiple transportable forms of CHO. These limitations are based on intentional absorption of CHO. (Glucose needs the sodium-dependent transporter SGLT1 for absorption across the basolateral membrane of the intestinal lumen).
  • This is achieved with the introduction of fructose (as it uses the GLUT5 transporter) which maximally oxidises at 0.6g/min (36g per hour). Fructose makes up the other 48% of our mix or 48g/hour.
  • This puts us at a maximal oxidation possibility of 96g/hour, if 60g was coming from glucose/sucrose and 36g was coming from fructose.

Things to additionally note:
  • The calculations I've done are based on the assumption that the "table sugar" i.e. sucrose is 50:50 glucose:fructose as accepted in the literature. I looked up the proportions of glucose:fructose in one container of gatorade and subbed those values in as well, see table at the end of the email.
  • Intensity and time both play roles here too. At high intensity, any exercise <2.5 hours should only maximally need 60g/hour and can be kept to one type of CHO (i.e. glucose alone). Lower intensities require lower amounts of CHO. Once we get up past 2.5 hours (and if intensity is still high) that's when we drift up to 90g/hour.

So, what does all of this mean? Basically, unless you are a freak of nature, you can't possibly be absorbing all of that CHO per hour, which means we can do some tweaking. However, I am very aware of athlete's comfort zones, and not wanting to mess around too much outside of what they feel comfortable changing.


Gatorade Powder - 560g weight, 324g Glucose, 180g Fructose, 4080mg Sodium, 1800mg Potassium
Table Sugar - 2000g weight, 1000g Glucose, 1000g Fructose
Totals - 2560g weight, 1324g Glucose, 1180g Fructose, 4080mg Sodium, 1800mg Potassium

20g serving - 10g Glucose, 9g Fructose, 32mg Sodium, 14mg Potassium

52/46% split between Glucose and Fructose

---


Fire away Dr Alex!
Last edited by: BNothling: Jun 22, 22 23:05
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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I've been following this thread for a bit. The science and info in here is super-interesting.

Assuming your gut can support the intake & your hydration level supports your sweat rate, I'm curious on what the downsides are to consuming say 90carbs (1:1 Glucose/Fructose) an hour when perhaps the math says you only need ~70 over the duration of your event?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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BNothling wrote:
  • This is achieved with the introduction of fructose (as it uses the GLUT5 transporter) which maximally oxidises at 0.6g/min (36g per hour).
  • This puts us at a maximal oxidation possibility of 96g/hour, if 60g was coming from glucose/sucrose and 36g was coming from fructose.

Haven't these two bullet points been amply disproven in recent literature? I thought it was commonly accepted that maximum CHO intake was trainable and that there were lots of examples of 120+ g/hr (I've heard of up to 140 g/hr).
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Alex,

How much does body weight/LBM affect the commonly referenced 90g carbs/hour metric? Surely this was based on a specific x grams/kg/hour in some study and subsequent literature?

I would imagine somebody 100kg would require more fuel, and also assume that person would be able to process more per hour?

I am 100kg/220lb and hover around 10% BF/~195lb LBM consistently, so wondering how much I should trust the “standard” numbers and if you are aware of any literature on this subject that would help make this a bit more secofic

Thanks!
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [ColoradoChap] [ In reply to ]
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ColoradoChap wrote:
Alex,

How much does body weight/LBM affect the commonly referenced 90g carbs/hour metric? Surely this was based on a specific x grams/kg/hour in some study and subsequent literature?
Actually very little. Gut tolerances are minimally affected by body mass. Probably more affected by height, actually, due to larger organ size and greater absorption surface area. The aforementioned statement about height is mostly conjecture, but I'd place a small bet on it.

ColoradoChap wrote:
I would imagine somebody 100kg would require more fuel, and also assume that person would be able to process more per hour?
Certainly higher requirements, but less of a boost in absorption ability than I'd like, while I sit here at 94kg :)

ColoradoChap wrote:
I am 100kg/220lb and hover around 10% BF/~195lb LBM consistently, so wondering how much I should trust the “standard” numbers and if you are aware of any literature on this subject that would help make this a bit more specific
I wouldn't trust the standard numbers at all. You're very likely to need >>90g/hr. The app I'm writing to handle all this will have an upper limit of 150g/hr, but I think it's truly a rare person who can absorb that amount. Much less rare is the ability to absorb 120-130g/hr on the bike.

Thanks![/quote]You're right that all the "standard" numbers have come from studies reporting only sample averages. Most of those studies have mean body weights of 65-85kg. I suspect higher lean body mass folks with years of high fuel intake rates historically, are capable of the greatest exogenous carb utilization during exercise. It'll probably be another 10-20yrs before that's well studied in the scientific literature because good luck finding a large group of college students (typical research subjects) who possess a very high LBM and also enjoy high volume endurance training. The time it takes to develop substantial muscle mass alone makes this a virtual impossibility.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent info - thank you v much for the detailed response. I am 6’6 so good point about organ size. Out of curiosity, have you seen any data on correlation between height and organ size?

One concern I have, and assume a number of other people have as well, is the demonization of sugar (for good reason in the standard American diet). I assume the negatives associated with this (inflammation, etc) are negated by the immediate use of the sugar as fuel, but curious if you have any thoughts on this topic?

Also assume this is why many supplement companies use alternative “complex” carbs.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [ColoradoChap] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely.

See end of video here regarding demonization of carbs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-1JJqMblvc

Also see the more recent monosaccharides video, as I believe Michelle touched on it too.

The TLDR is: body, pancreas, and most organs, handle sugar vastly differently during exercise and there is strong evidence that it does not pose a long-term risk to health. (I'd be dead if it did)

Biggest risk = dental health. Chase with water.

One of my favorite canned texts to share with folks:
In the greatest irony of ironies (in my very small sport-nutritionist mind) many of the supplements that are principally maltodextrin are marketed as "complex" or "not sugar." Maltodextrin is viewed virtually identically as sugar by the pancreas, and other organs responsive to sugar because by the time it hits the blood stream (just as fast as pure sucrose, dextrose, or fructose) it is already fully broken down. The same thing is true for things like highly branched cyclic dextrin or just branched cyclic dextrin (HBCD & BCD). Body responds to it just like sugar. The primary reason any of them are used is actually to enhance the speed and ease of absorption in the gut (there are better ways and no it's not worth your money), but the irony there is that is precisely the purpose of plain sugar too!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [BNothling] [ In reply to ]
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BNothling wrote:
Just posting this here after a DM discussion with Dr Alex. I want to preface this by saying that he knows where I'm coming from and I'm not trying to undermine his work. I've been using his mix (dubbed Alacrity Mix) for a few months now and haven't had an issue with it. I've adapted to the 100g CHO/hour and everything is ticking along. I've started seeing a dietician and she asked about my intra-training mix. When I told her, this was her response and after asking Dr Alex for his opinion and insight into her response, we decided it best to post it here so Alex could respond and hopefully enlighten the rest of us.

Fire away Dr Alex!

Hey BNothling, thanks for posting this here, and for your patience for my response. Wanted to do this one justice. Your dietitian is honestly better than average if I were to sample all dietitians for their prescriptive quality and rationale. Better than average even for CSSD's (sport dietitians), too, so I won't blame her for missing the mark in the very small ways that she may have here. Her recommendations are generally considered "best practices" by RD's in general. It's just that the body of ACEND and most RD's are not intimately familiar with endurance sport nutrition and the last 10 years of the most recent literature. So, honestly, kudos to her for being able to make very specific recommendations in the first place.

And, she's lightyears ahead of where I started when I made the plunge into endurance sport nutrition.


Fun anecdote: I once prescribed a male cyclist 75 grams of carbs, TOTAL for a 4-hour bike ride. He told me he was bonking after about 90-120minutes, and so I upped it to 125 grams of carbs. He reported still bonking after ~120-150 minutes, and having a miserable remainder of his 4-hr group ride. Just no power. Needless to say, he, rightly, did not renew his coaching package with me.

(this was circa ~2015, when I didn't have the first clue about endurance sports, and it was that utter coaching dumpster fire that compelled me to get out of weight room nutrient timing & glycogen repletion literature and into actual endurance fueling literature)

To whomever that was, if you ever read this, I'm truly sorry! Happy to credit you with 3 months of free nutrition coaching if ever you stumble into this thread, or lifetime free use of the app I'm writing.


I tell this anecdote to say to anyone learning to write endurance nutrition programs, or implement their own, I promise you already know more than I did when I started, and you're doing a great job.

Okay, let's dive in.

BNothling's dietitian wrote:
The reason I queried this is because of the following;

Glucose (one of the forms of CHO you're taking on, approximately 52% of your current mix) maximally oxidises at 1g/min - which obviously then caps us out at 60g/hour.
Not quite. Depending on who you ask, it's probably somewhere between ....


(EDIT)


60-72g/hr for pure glucose (as far as study averages go). FWIW: One poster on ST has reported consistently using 90g/hr of either pure maltodextrin or pure dextrose for all their carbs with no gut issues. The rate of total carb oxidation in the literature is more like 1.5-2.0g/min, IIRC, but with relatively higher incidences of GI distress above 60-70g/hr when consuming pure glucose.

Most importantly, to achieve 60g/hr oxidation of glucose, it requires >60g/hr intake because. If you're capable of oxidizing 100g/hr, total, it may actually take 120-130g/hr intake to cause such an exogenous sugar oxidation rate. This is true for all forms of sugar, independently, and in any combinations. Exogenous glucose oxidation rates exceeding 60g/hr (1g/min) are often found with sugar intakes ranging from 70-120g/hr.


TLDR: You must intake more than will be oxidized. Only way to get those numbers to be identical is to move ever lower towards 0g/hr intake rates.

(END EDIT)

BNothling's dietitian wrote:
If this is 52% of our mix, this means we are roughly getting 52g/hour.
Correct.


BNothling's dietitian wrote:
To achieve higher CHO oxidation rates during exercise, we need to use multiple transportable forms of CHO.
Correct.


BNothling's dietitian wrote:
These limitations are based on intentional absorption of CHO. (Glucose needs the sodium-dependent transporter SGLT1 for absorption across the basolateral membrane of the intestinal lumen).
Also correct.
BNothling's dietitian wrote:
This is achieved with the introduction of fructose (as it uses the GLUT5 transporter) which maximally oxidises at 0.6g/min (36g per hour).
This is probably just an inconsequential misuse of wording here, and I'm only pointing out the semantic error here for the edification of readers.

Trasporters don't oxidize. They transport. Oxidation happens later, in metabolism.



Her cited fructose max transport rate appears to be higher than I've seen reported by an RD before. Cool! Also a bit overly-specific, as is commonly taught in most RD education programs. (My wife is an RD and was remotely educated so I got to witness lots). Usually what is cited is 30g/hr. I'd say that 30-36g/hr is a good rule of thumb for max fructose trasport rate for that one transporter type: GLUT5.

GLUT2, however, is pretty neat. See my wife's recent video about monosaccharides, and watch the fructose section for why it matters. Short answer: more fructose intake hourly is possible when combined with glucose intake. The "36" number comes from fructose-only consumption studies.


BNothling's dietitian wrote:
Fructose makes up the other 48% of our mix or 48g/hour.
This puts us at a maximal oxidation possibility of 96g/hour, if 60g was coming from glucose/sucrose and 36g was coming from fructose.
Who knows exactly where it puts max oxidation potential, but I'd posit that if you're not having gut issues, you're transporting all of it peaceably through your GI tract.


BNothling's dietitian wrote:
Things to additionally note:

The calculations I've done are based on the assumption that the "table sugar" i.e. sucrose is 50:50 glucose:fructose as accepted in the literature.
She's a nerd. I love it.


BNothling's dietitian wrote:
I looked up the proportions of glucose:fructose in one container of gatorade and subbed those values in as well, see table at the end of the email.
Super nerd. Fantastic. This is above and beyond service from most sport dietitians. I'm curious what she found for those proportions. I've seen multiple ratios cited.



BNothling's dietitian wrote:
Intensity and time both play roles here too.
Correct.



BNothling's dietitian wrote:
At high intensity, any exercise <2.5 hours should only maximally need 60g/hour and can be kept to one type of CHO (i.e. glucose alone).
Depends on the person. Some people are going to get hypoglycemic as heck at 60g/hr. She's citing Jeukendrup's work, which has been cited most recently in position stands of the ISSN, which he co-authored. He's excellent, as has been his research. However, the recommendations that he puts forth are very generic, and have led to the under-fueling of probably 30-40% of athletes, to the extent that the believe their fitness is far lower than it actually is.



BNothling's dietitian wrote:
Lower intensities require lower amounts of CHO.
Yes, but intensities have to be VERY low to not merit fueling up to 90g/hr out in the 3-4hr realm, especially for a reasonably well-muscle or high-fitness person. Yes, higher fitness folks are usually capable of burning more fat, both absolutely, and relative to their total fuel oxidation, but they're also simply capable of burning more in general, including carbs. High muscle, high fitness, or both often demand >90g/hr unless we're at recovery intensities, once activity exceeds 2.5 hours.


BNothling's dietitian wrote:
Once we get up past 2.5 hours (and if intensity is still high) that's when we drift up to 90g/hour.
Yes, and sometimes as high as 120-150g/hr is necessary and tolerable for large, muscular, or high-fitness athletes.


BNothling's dietitian wrote:
So, what does all of this mean? Basically, unless you are a freak of nature, you can't possibly be absorbing all of that CHO per hour, which means we can do some tweaking.
Not true.


The AVERAGE of the people studied in all the studies has shown that 90-120g/hr optimizes performance, in the sampled populations. Higher fitness, higher muscularity, or just higher carb burning ability genetically or via training adaptations, can absolutely drive those numbers up 20-50%. I'd posit the 40-50% range (ie. 140-150g/hr) is where you're getting into freak of nature status.


When a study claims to have found the "highest ever exogenous carb oxidation rates" what they mean is that the average of their study subjects produced that record rate, compared to the average of all other study's sample populations. Assuming normal distribution (or where mean ≅ median, roughly) that means literally half the subjects in that study experienced personally higher oxidation rates than the number that is statistically reportable in publication.


Research is especially lacking on larger endurance athletes with very high chronic fuel intake rates because it's never been broadly recommended. If there is anything at all truthful about the "train your gut" movement, I suspect we'll see even higher carb intake, absorption, and oxidation rates in the years to come as wider swaths of athletes start implementing >100g/hr periodically, when it matters.

BNothling's dietitian wrote:
However, I am very aware of athlete's comfort zones, and not wanting to mess around too much outside of what they feel comfortable changing.
@BNothling, I think this is a great opportunity for you to show her that you are indeed using all the carbs. She's allowing you to keep fueling at high rates. Might be fun to report back "hey, so I felt even better when I did 110g/hr." The same thing happened to me when I had an athlete say they'd tried 140g/hr for the first time and felt fantastic on a 5-hr ride. Opened my eyes to the magnitude of human variation that is possible.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Last edited by: DrAlexHarrison: Jun 29, 22 12:20
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Alex,

I stumbled across this today - is this accurate? If so, seems maltodextrin would be preferred on the surface, esp for limited water carrying capacity (running, etc.), thoughts?

Quote:
Here are the rough numbers: maltodextrin is isotonic at 300g/1000ml. Simple sugars like Glucose, Fructose, and Sucrose are isotonic at 52g/1000ml. This means that you need to dilute the simple sugars with six times as much water as maltodextrin to hit that isotonic ‘sweet spot’.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [ColoradoChap] [ In reply to ]
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ColoradoChap wrote:
Alex,

I stumbled across this today - is this accurate? If so, seems maltodextrin would be preferred on the surface, esp for limited water carrying capacity (running, etc.), thoughts?

Quote:
Here are the rough numbers: maltodextrin is isotonic at 300g/1000ml. Simple sugars like Glucose, Fructose, and Sucrose are isotonic at 52g/1000ml. This means that you need to dilute the simple sugars with six times as much water as maltodextrin to hit that isotonic ‘sweet spot’.
Fantastic question.

The math may be true. (I did not check)

The implications are not true.

Reason: osmolarity is not the primary determinant of gut tolerance, gastric emptying rate, or absorption rate for water, carbs, or sodium, or anything during exercise, for that matter.

Energy density and absolute energy intake rates and amounts are primary. Secondary is probably optimizing glucose:fructose ratio. Distant tertiary is osmolarity management. Presence of sodium with carbs probably matters more than keeping osmolarity low, too, tbh.

Yes, it may be true that the optimal glucose:fructose ratio is slightly shifted towards 2:1 from somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1 in cases of low water carriage capacity, for reasons of osmolarity reduction, but I bet if that is indeed true, it would be incredibly hard to discern the magnitude of such a shift. I'm really getting down in the theoretical weeds here. There would still be half a dozen other factors affecting things more than purely osmolarity management because when hydration ability is compromised, all other nuances of fueling strategy begin to matter progressively more.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [flogazo] [ In reply to ]
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flogazo wrote:
Hm...
So that's a "No" to the notion of training fat metabolism by having some longer workouts with reduced carb fueling?
I don't know that I ever saw this reply but just stumbled into it. Apologies for redundancy if I indeed did reply earlier in this thread.

Correct, I'd call that a "no" for any modification of nutrition strategy towards attempts at increasing fat metabolism.

Reason: any changes are likely to be smaller in magnitude and impact than the negatives they cause (ie. decreased carb oxidation ability). Not to mention, lost opportunity to practice race fueling strategy, cause gut adaptation towards greater ease of race fuel implementation, increased RPE in training and reduced training recovery speed.

I won't ignore the argument that having high fat metabolism ability is critical for success in ultra-endurance performance.

I just posit that high fat oxidation ability shouldn't come to fruition, by way of nutritional modifications.

Rather, get good at burning fat by getting fitter and better at fat ox via training. This can and should be accomplished in the presence of very high carb fueling during long training sessions.

Sorry for missing this until now!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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This 2018 study suggests alginate doesn't help performance.

https://www.scienceinsport.com/...sted-sodium-alginate



Limitations on the study I can see (there will be others!):
* n=14
* Research at behest of one of the products, doesn't say it was double blind.
* Used products rather than studying alginate per se - there are differences in pH and carb composition as well as alginate.
* Not particularly high fuelling rates

* Much lower sodium compared to the Alacrity Endurance recommendations
* Only 2 hrs exercise
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [jimdowning] [ In reply to ]
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For sure. Sodium alginate is marketing, and is better replaced by sodium citrate.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Alex,

Can this sodium alginate be a cause of making my guts ‘work’ or is it more to find in the composition of Maurten.
I have had many full distance races go bas due to stomach problems.
In 2019 i did a ironman distance race on about 70 grams of plain dextrose powder, salt and a electrolyte tablet in a 750 ml bottle and drank 1 bottle an hour.
That worked although i came a bit short on fuel in the 2nd half of the marathon, but no stomach issues.
At some point i came to the conclusion fructose might be the cause.

Started with Maurten this year and can drink about 110-120 grams of Maurten in the bike but after a 5hr bike ride as soon as i get hime i have to take a stop ar the toilet for a code brown. Long runs, the same at about around 90-110 min in long runs when i use Maurten i have to get out of the pants.
No further stomach issues, so that’s good, but the shitty part is….wel pretty shitty. As so i had to get out of my run pants twice during my last ld race in september.

Any idea what could be the cause this gut ‘thing’? It just happens with Maurten, but most other sports drinks give my stomach issues.

Would it be an idea to get back to my dextrose mix and just try to add fructose by 10 grams portions and see at what level it might give me stomach problems?


Thanks

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [TRIPRO] [ In reply to ]
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TRIPRO wrote:
Dear Alex,

Can this sodium alginate be a cause of making my guts ‘work’ or is it more to find in the composition of Maurten.
I have had many full distance races go bas due to stomach problems.
In 2019 i did a ironman distance race on about 70 grams of plain dextrose powder, salt and a electrolyte tablet in a 750 ml bottle and drank 1 bottle an hour.
That worked although i came a bit short on fuel in the 2nd half of the marathon, but no stomach issues.
At some point i came to the conclusion fructose might be the cause.

Started with Maurten this year and can drink about 110-120 grams of Maurten in the bike but after a 5hr bike ride as soon as i get hime i have to take a stop ar the toilet for a code brown. Long runs, the same at about around 90-110 min in long runs when i use Maurten i have to get out of the pants.
No further stomach issues, so that’s good, but the shitty part is….wel pretty shitty. As so i had to get out of my run pants twice during my last ld race in september.

Any idea what could be the cause this gut ‘thing’? It just happens with Maurten, but most other sports drinks give my stomach issues.

Would it be an idea to get back to my dextrose mix and just try to add fructose by 10 grams portions and see at what level it might give me stomach problems?


Thanks

Jeroen
The thing that makes maurten work: more fructose than most other beverages. It's 1:0.8 malto:fructose which is the same/better as 1:0.8 dextrose:fructose. Both achieve delivering 1:0.8 ratio (almost 1:1) of glucose:fructose. Maurten was the first product to do this. And it's why it works for so many people. The fact they use alginate might be slightly better than chloride, but the hydrogel thing is pure marketing. If alginate is better than chloride it's purely because you don't end up getting an overload of chloride in the gut. Sodium citrate manages this better, or can use a mix of mostly sodium citrate with a bit of table salt and achieve the same thing.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Maurten was the first product to do this. And it's why it works for so many people.

Is that actually true?
Powerbar gels are also 2:1 glucose:fructose and there's other brands too.
Also, it's my understanding that a lot of the studies about mixing carbohydrates were made by Gatorade?
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [marcoviappiani] [ In reply to ]
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marcoviappiani wrote:
Quote:
Maurten was the first product to do this. And it's why it works for so many people.


Is that actually true?
Powerbar gels are also 2:1 glucose:fructose and there's other brands too.
Also, it's my understanding that a lot of the studies about mixing carbohydrates were made by Gatorade?
Yes. Maurten was first to do 1:0.8 ratio. This is not an endorsement of maurten.

I endorse sugar.

Yes, lots of the studies were done and influenced by Gatorade. They're a (the) primary reason you hear the numbers 30/60/90 & 2:1. Science isn't that pretty. Marketing is.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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so basically the "real" innovation of Maurten is simply increasing the proportion of fructose and going from 2:1 to 2:1.6.
I remember reading about the ration and not fully understanding why would Maurten decide to have a slightly different ratio.

If an athlete were to go over 90 g/h is there a benefit to hold that 1:0.8, assuming they can tolerate the high fructose or would it be better to have a different ratio?

Table sugar is supposedly 1:1. Is that an option for >120g of carbs per hour?
Last edited by: marcoviappiani: Nov 16, 22 10:55
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [marcoviappiani] [ In reply to ]
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marcoviappiani wrote:
so basically the "real" innovation of Maurten is simply increasing the proportion of fructose and going from 2:1 to 2:1.6.
I remember reading about the ration and not fully understanding why would Maurten decide to have a slightly different ratio.

If an athlete were to go over 90 g/h is there a benefit to hold that 1:0.8, assuming they can tolerate the high fructose or would it be better to have a different ratio?

Table sugar is supposedly 1:1. Is that an option for >120g of carbs per hour?
Yes.

&

Yes.

:)

Welcome to the dark side.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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DrAlexHarrison wrote:
TRIPRO wrote:
Dear Alex,

Can this sodium alginate be a cause of making my guts ‘work’ or is it more to find in the composition of Maurten.
I have had many full distance races go bas due to stomach problems.
In 2019 i did a ironman distance race on about 70 grams of plain dextrose powder, salt and a electrolyte tablet in a 750 ml bottle and drank 1 bottle an hour.
That worked although i came a bit short on fuel in the 2nd half of the marathon, but no stomach issues.
At some point i came to the conclusion fructose might be the cause.

Started with Maurten this year and can drink about 110-120 grams of Maurten in the bike but after a 5hr bike ride as soon as i get hime i have to take a stop ar the toilet for a code brown. Long runs, the same at about around 90-110 min in long runs when i use Maurten i have to get out of the pants.
No further stomach issues, so that’s good, but the shitty part is….wel pretty shitty. As so i had to get out of my run pants twice during my last ld race in september.

Any idea what could be the cause this gut ‘thing’? It just happens with Maurten, but most other sports drinks give my stomach issues.

Would it be an idea to get back to my dextrose mix and just try to add fructose by 10 grams portions and see at what level it might give me stomach problems?


Thanks

Jeroen

The thing that makes maurten work: more fructose than most other beverages. It's 1:0.8 malto:fructose which is the same/better as 1:0.8 dextrose:fructose. Both achieve delivering 1:0.8 ratio (almost 1:1) of glucose:fructose. Maurten was the first product to do this. And it's why it works for so many people. The fact they use alginate might be slightly better than chloride, but the hydrogel thing is pure marketing. If alginate is better than chloride it's purely because you don't end up getting an overload of chloride in the gut. Sodium citrate manages this better, or can use a mix of mostly sodium citrate with a bit of table salt and achieve the same thing.

But could the higher fructose rate could lead to the gut activity in your opinion or doesn't fructose have anything to do with it. I have read there are people with a fructose intolerance or havinf problems with fructose absorption.

regards,


Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [marcoviappiani] [ In reply to ]
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marcoviappiani wrote:


Table sugar is supposedly 1:1. Is that an option for >120g of carbs per hour?


Sugar seems fine for most pros. Take for example what Patrick Lange shared yesterday while training in Majorca. Some gummies, a Snickers bar and coke



Last edited by: anakinpm: Nov 17, 22 4:07
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [TRIPRO] [ In reply to ]
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For sure, there are people with fructose sensitivity. Those folks would want a much lower fructose approach. If someone has fructose sensitivity, a 2:1 gluc:fruc ratio is likely to be quite offensive. Most folks do not have such a sensitivity and I'd caution against anyone reading this going down this thought path before fully examining their hydration and implementation of approach. Sensitivities are much more rarely the cause of gut problems than today's hyper-tracking-capable hyper-testing-capable monitor-everything culture might have us believe.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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Dr. Harrison,

You mentioned this on another thread and I had a question. When I calculate the macros for the at-home drink, it looks like about 26-28g carbs/100cal. Is there a limit to how many calories can/should be ingested during a race? Looks like it would be 400-500 calories per hour with this drink mix, which seems high to me. Is it better to take in too many calories in order to hit carbohydrate goals? Thanks!
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Zacky] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sure Dr Alex will have more to add or some delicate re-shaping of my layman's answer, but a gram of carbohydrate always = 4 cals.

So there's really no difference between carb and calorie goals or limits (unless you're also mixing in fat/protein etc, which you're not), it's just a different way of expressing it.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Zacky] [ In reply to ]
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Zacky wrote:
Dr. Harrison,

You mentioned this on another thread and I had a question. When I calculate the macros for the at-home drink, it looks like about 26-28g carbs/100cal. Is there a limit to how many calories can/should be ingested during a race? Looks like it would be 400-500 calories per hour with this drink mix, which seems high to me. Is it better to take in too many calories in order to hit carbohydrate goals? Thanks!
Yes, the calorie limits that float around the internet are largely just terrible outdated advice. There are lots of documented reports of folks in the 500-650 calories/hour range during long endurance events. How they do it: predominately (or exclusively) carbs, specifically mostly glucose and fructose sources. (like sucrose and maltodextrin)

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [StanMcKenzie] [ In reply to ]
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StanMcKenzie wrote:
I'm sure Dr Alex will have more to add or some delicate re-shaping of my layman's answer, but a gram of carbohydrate always = 4 cals.

So there's really no difference between carb and calorie goals or limits (unless you're also mixing in fat/protein etc, which you're not), it's just a different way of expressing it.
Agreed.

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [StanMcKenzie] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome, thanks to both of you! What I'm consistently hearing is that there is a LOT of misunderstanding/outdated information out there around nutrition. Really appreciate you clearing things up - shows that Googling this stuff nowadays is essentially useless.
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [Zacky] [ In reply to ]
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That's correct. :)

Dr. Alex Harrison
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [DrAlexHarrison] [ In reply to ]
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This is AWESOME! Thank you so much for posting all of this. I believe that nutrition is the biggest reason for success/failure in long distance.

I was going with 2:1 complex carbs (malto) to simple (gatorade) for the osmolality benefit, but you're saying that's not really a concern, correct? The osmolality of sodium is important, but not the carbs?

Somebody else posted this formula earlier and you would say this is what you are proposing as a good ratio?

1.25 cups of table sugar
1 scoop of standard gatorade powder
1 TSP of sodium citrate

So if I had a huge tub of maltodextrin and also gatorade powder, what is a mix of that I could use to finish off the malto powder over time?

Also, one unspoken reason to use gatorade powder in your mix people haven't mentioned here is it comes pre-dyed. Helps you see how much you have left in your bottles instead of purely clear liquids. If I do have a clear fuel, I add a drop of food coloring. Different colors for different stages of the race/concentrations of fuel.
Last edited by: ZenTriBrett: Nov 22, 22 9:10
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Re: Help me calculate an at home "maurten" drink (im bad at math) [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
This is AWESOME! Thank you so much for posting all of this. I believe that nutrition is the biggest reason for success/failure in long distance.

I was going with 2:1 complex carbs (malto) to simple (gatorade) for the osmolality benefit, but you're saying that's not really a concern, correct?

Somebody else posted this formula earlier and you would say this is what you are proposing as a good ratio?

1.25 cups of table sugar
1 scoop of standard gatorade powder
1 TSP of sodium citrate

So if I had a huge tub of maltodextrin and also gatorade powder, what is a mix of that I could use to finish off the malto powder over time?

Also, one unspoken reason to use gatorade powder in your mix people haven't mentioned here is it comes pre-dyed. Helps you see how much you have left in your bottles instead of purely clear liquids. If I do have a clear fuel, I add a drop of food coloring. Different colors for different stages of the race/concentrations of fuel.

That recipe works!

Replace an eighth to a quarter of your sugar with your malto for a while, and you'll be good to go.

Agreed re: color being handy!

Dr. Alex Harrison
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