I think Challenge and the PTO have an opportunity to be a disrupter to Ironman. It looks like Talbot and the media crew are getting prepared to push out quality content this weekend which will have a positive impact on the Pro athletes for endorsements and also motivating folks that may stumble upon the coverage.

I think it would actually be cool if Challenge pushed out the 100k distance more frequently and to AG races too. It is a clean distance and I think it the distances are equally weighed.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

Not much there. Title is deliberately misleading—there really isn’t any new pros vs IM argument.

Not too bad of an article. The author needs to do a little more research to get some facts better. Still nice to see tri on a national level site.

An interesting quote:
The new series will only work if fans actually watch. That would drive up media rights fees and spur potential sponsors to try to reach a very desirable audience.
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And yet still doesn't give people a solid idea as to how to watch the series other than it will be featured on media outlets. Or what time the race starts. So if someone stumbled across this article and was piqued, they'd not know how to tune in should they want to without significant, and non-guaranteed success, hunting.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

But that's an issue for Challenge/PTO PR folks, not a NYTimes writer covering the broader issue of pros/competition in the sport.

That whole article, while very welcome, doesn't necessarily paint triathletes in the best light. Kind of makes pros look whiney and all participants look like spoiled 1%ers. I get the narrative they're going for, but I don't think complaining how "Just $80,000 in winnings was good enough for a spot in the top 10 on the money list." looks very tasteful to anyone but triathletes themselves.

Of course I hope triathlon becomes more popular than darts, but it hasn't been, and we are still racing, which just makes us look more like suckers. But what this article doesn't capture is that 99% of pro triathletes I know aren't trying to, or expecting to, get rich. If we can make enough to live relatively comfortably, and race whenever we're able to, we'll be happy. Hard to articulate my thoughts here, but I guess I feel like it's the wrong approach to complain that the people already making the most amount of money in the sport aren't making enough money. The PTO's goals have been to help everyone, and while they have, the vast bulk of money has still gone to the already top performers. If they're going for improving the whole sport from a top down approach, I just hope they can achieve that before they run out of money.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

But that's an issue for Challenge/PTO PR folks, not a NYTimes writer covering the broader issue of pros/competition in the sport
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I don't necessarily disagree. But, I find it disingenuous for the writer to include a blurb on "fans need to watch" without giving them an idea how to watch. The PTO/ Challenge is having a universal struggle in communicating how people could tune in. Here was an excellent opportunity for the people being interviewed for the article to hammer it home and get free advertising. Neither the author nor the PTO/ athletes did the race any favors on that front.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I am somewhat surprised that an event like this couldn't get time on the Olympic Channel or NBCSN (maybe that one is a stretch).

I do not see how this is any less watchable than Vuelta.

uhh, you basically just described triathlon exceptionally well.

Of course, and that's why we are a very desirable audience to potential sponsors. I feel like my wife and I are the poor triathletes when we show up. Then I realize we are top 5-10% on income earners in the United States. (of course, we live in high COL America)

Benjamin,

Does your diet allow for unlimited chocolate cream pie? ;)

The Adamo quote - "these athletes should be highly paid co-owners" - doesn't come across well as a one liner in the article.

O'Donnell and Joyce have impressed me with their professional approach to our sport. Why wasn't O'Donnell identified as the other PTO co-president in the article? He should have been if he still has that title, which he does on the PTO website. Edit: the NYT took my suggestion and added that info to the article.

I think that would be a gift to Ironman and make Challenge look even less appealing to North American athletes. They are only cutting 8 miles off the bike making it more of a run-dominant event. By contrast, the TriStar 111 format (1K, 100K, 10K) was more palatable by catering to those who didn't grow up swimming and hate running (perhaps a good deal of the real market) and yet it DIED. If you are in business, you aren't trying to make the distances "clean" (whatever that is) or equitable; you are trying to find a distance that is desired by the majority of the actual market. The 70.3 distance has proven to be very popular, and will be difficult to sell to large numbers as a better alternative to 70.3.

I tend to disagree. Understandably, You might be too close to the situation. I can see why you might find that distasteful. But, I’m far more aware of earnings of pro athletes in other sports than I am in triathlon despite being FAR more aware of some things triathlon than the average person. The public is well-accustomed to $100+ million earnings from pro athletes. I don’t think anyone will consider a pro athlete “complaining” about $80k in earnings will come across as the least bit distasteful. To the extent it registers at all, I think the average Joe will be surprised their earnings are so little.

I would say it doesn't necessarily become a run-dominated event. I think it evens it out, the cycling in the traditional IM/70.3 distance is the dominant leg, I more often see top split bikes + mediocre runs rank higher than mediocre bike + top slit runs. I'd love to take some stats from certain races to see if I can prove my point but I need to work today :( maybe tomorrow.

Only thing I would say is that if they really wanted to even it out, they would push that swim out a bit more, say 1.5 miles, or even better 2. But we know that if they do that for AGers too, that would likely stop many AGers from signing up. However I don't see why they couldn't do that for pros only. And fwiw, the swim is by far my weakest leg, I enjoy swimming in the open water but hate racing in open water. I still think that swimmers are at a much higher disadvantage than anyone else.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

How is this not the most controversial line in the article for us

The dirty secret about elite triathletes, with their chiseled physiques, $8,000 bikes and training schedules that allow for unlimited chocolate cream pie, is that for most of the pros, the pay is relatively lousy.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Right? That isn't even close to a fair description of me! I'd estimate my bike to be more like $8,100 and I'm lactose intolerant so it's unlimited Oreos instead. So insulting...

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Agree with the disagreement here -- I think especially when framed in terms of what people in sports like golf and tennis earn, and in terms of the apparent value of IMcorp, it's showing (or at least attempting to show) that getting a relatively low payday.

But appreciate RBDs general concern about relative income ...maybe pitch Futterman a story about the working class pro who is really working hard and creatively to make it work?

The argument isn't new. A credible championship-quality race with a ~$1M pro purse is pretty new. At least that's my understanding as a roadie.

The PTO thread right near this one currently has >300 posts. That's the most I've seen from a pro-related tri-race thread in a while.

"Tim O'Donnell who is the Co-President of the PTO"

Tim O'Donnell who is an Ironman Foundation Ambassador.

The attempt to paint Ironman in a bad light continues for what reason I don't care. What do pros actually bring to the table for any race promoter? The value is quite limited. We have multiple threads on this:

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/How_Important_Is_A_Pro_Field_P7393335/?page=unread#unread

Generally speaking the Olympic and Sprint Distance products put on by the ITU are what is easily digestible. Super League also easily digestible.

Long Course Triathlon is more like how the HSBC World Series is set up in Rugby. A Massive 8-10 hour TV block that broadcasters don't want to give up for better revenue generating sports. So it goes onto the OTT platform in countries with networks that pay for the rights (US, was on ESPN+ and is now on NBC Sports Gold now the Peacock). Or it is streamed for free in countries that don't have a rights holder.

I looked at the schedule for even this race, it's not going to be a compact product and it will still compete with revenue generating sports.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Oreos are lactose free? Learn something new every day.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Incredibly, they're actually fully vegan, which of course makes them healthy.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

The new series will only work if fans actually watch. That would drive up media rights fees and spur potential sponsors to try to reach a very desirable audience.


This is valid - and ultimately where this all needs to go, to make a sustainable business model out of it.

The challenge, and I have said this here on the forum NUMEROUS times, in the largest media market in the world, the U.S., Endurance Sports (all of them - running, cycling, triathlon, nordic skiing, swimming . . .), are totally off the radar screen. There's a bot of hype coverage and interest during the Olympic Games every 4 years, IF, the U.S. has a contender/winner, but then it fades back into obscurity for another four years. We know what Lebron had for breakfast this morning but can't find ANYTHING about what is going on in running, cycling or triathlon.

The only time that there does seem to be coverage that breaks through is some big doping bust (which never puts the sport in a good light), or there is some freak running a marathon every day for a year - so the sport is looked at as some freaky carnival side show!

Part of this challenge in North America (the U.S. and Canada), is that there is little if any what I call Endurance Sports Culture. It's all Pro Team stick & ball sports all the time. In many other countries around the world, after Soccer, which is the #1 Sport, cycling is often the #2 Sport in terms of media coverage - so there is respect and understanding of what endurance sport is all about. It's why you see more triathlon coverage in the sport media in Europe! Ironically, the estimates of the number of people who pin on a bib number and enter a running, cycling or triathlon race in North America each year is 50 million!! So there is sizeable market of people who, would be the first layer of interest, one would think/hope!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Vegan depending on who you ask (https://www.google.com/...-really-vegan/%3famp) but most would say pretty damn close at least.

I don't know if it would help, but the fact that we had a Marathon Trials race probably hypes up that segment of Endurance sport.

Filling out the US Triathlon team through trials rather than a points system from the series would likely be better since there are no WTS races in the US anymore.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I think your NBA comparison is excessive, though. The point isn't to reach NBA-grade money. It's to get a small fraction of what Lebron *alone* makes feeding back to all pros so it's a viable way to make a living.

There are sports that are effectively non-existent in North American (or world) mainstream media that have healthy, sustainable markets for their elites. And who use niche media rather than depending on major networks.

Hoping to, say, become a sport that's featured daily on ESPN is neither what we *want* our sport to become, nor necessary for it to be a healthy professional sport.

I've participated in niche sports my whole life (cross-country, rowing, triathlon, marathon, road cycling, track cycling), and over that time have had zero hand-wringing because Lebron gets all the attention. (granted I was pro/elite for almost none of that)

But appreciate RBDs general concern about relative income ...maybe pitch Futterman a story about the working class pro who is really working hard and creatively to make it work?


That would be Cody Beals.

He stepped off into the deep-end 7 years ago, and has been quite open about his whole process - even documenting with spread-sheets, about how the whole business/professional side of it worked or did not work for him. How he was pragmatic, and stuck with it and now, after that 7 year journey he can kind of exhale a bit, knowing that he has built up a business, that is all about him - because that's what being a Professional Athlete in an individual sport like triathlon is all about.

I've interviewed Cody several times, and what has always struck me about him is that pragmatism - it's worked out well for him. Look he's not driving a Mercedes around, but he's now earning a good solid and sustainable income from his chosen sport!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Just a thought, the NBA, WTA, and most other top sports orgs that run pro sports don't run amateur events along with pro events. I don't think ASO even does that for cycling, right? So we can't really compare the IM situation to any other sport aside from what... marathons? even then, IAAF/USATF etc don't get involved in much more beyond the pro part of the race. it is a very unique dynamic that makes it hard to be compared to any other sport.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I've participated in niche sports my whole life (cross-country, rowing, triathlon, marathon, road cycling, track cycling), and over that time have had zero hand-wringing because Lebron gets all the attention. (granted I was pro/elite for almost none of that)


I don't either.

When I'm Commentating or Announcing, in running, track & field, cycling or triathlon, THE MOST exciting sport is going on in right front of me - and if it's not terribly exciting or interesting at the time, I try and make it more exciting and interesting!

The two best and most exciting sports-moments for me have been the men's 100m final at the 2018 and 2019 Canadian Track & Field Championships. I was the Stadium Announcer for both. The 2018 Final saw 7 of the 8 finalists all cross the line, almost as one! It was wild and crazy! It took forever ( 2 - 3 minutes which seems like forever in those moments) to sort out the photo finish and figure out the places. In 2018 it was a big showdown between Aaron Brown and Andre deGrasse. Brown got the much better start and deGrasse tracked him down the whole race, and then right at the line - an absolutely no difference photo-finish that again, seemed to take forever to resolve!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I for one love long form sports... golf majors, America's Cup sailing, Game 7 of the World Series, whatever, I watched it. If done right it can be compelling. I'm told Nordic countries have some high production long form stuff but I can't remember offhand which sport. IOW, long form sports aren't boring/unprofitable because they're long, it's because they're poorly done.

IMO the Hawaii IM coverage peaked when they had a video stream but no commentary and you watched while getting your commentary on ST and Twitter.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

The problem IMO is when the governing body turns into a corporation, and the previously sustainable niche sport becomes a mass participation echo chamber. The corporation shifts to becoming an event promoter, and then eventually shifts to becoming a social media content farm.

No different than any other extraction model in any business.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

The guy in charge of running it, Chris Kermode (I think) was interviewed on IMTalk a while ago. He said then that TV coverage was not a priority, and to be successful, they have a long term plan of growth. That starts with getting the top pros together and finding a race format that works.

He's the guy who built the ATP for tennis, and that seems to have done fairly well - very well, in fact.

The interview was good, and answers a lot of questions on this thread.

That would likely be cross country skiing. E.g. Vasaloppet here in Sweden is a cross country race (90K) with pros (maybe a hundered, ~10-20 with a chance to win) and amateurs (aprox. 15 000) in the same race. I.e. not too different from a long distance triathlon but for size. For the pros it takes about 4 hours, the last of the amateurs come in after about 12 hours. TV-coverage on national tv is live from 7.30 am to 8 pm. First mostly focusing on the pro-races (men/women), then with that race finished, on the amatuers. It makes good tv, watching it is a tradition. About 20% of Swedes watch at least some of the broadcast. Would be surprised if Birkebeinerrennet in Norway isn't similiar, probably even higher watcher numbers.

I gotta that the new distance of this series is a huge improvement over IM, both for athletes and for spectators.

1.2-mile swim / 48-mile bike / 13.1 mile run sounds downright body-friendly. And sponsor friendly too. I can only imagine the speeds that will be achieved at this much shorter distance. And it seems like there could be a lot more athletes from the ITU circuit that could come over and excel at these kind of distances.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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1.2-mile swim / 48-mile bike / 13.1 mile run sounds downright body-friendly.
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So, you're saying that the extra 8 miles (~20-25 min) on the bike takes a huge hit on the body? Forcing people race at a significantly slower pace/ intensity?

It seems to me that the 70.3 IM branded distance is nearly the same as this 'new' format. On that front the WTC could easily adapt their 70.3 series to compete for eyes. I'm happy that there is a potential for corporate competition. I suspect that this current potential is being driven by the covid shutdown and this venue's willingness to host a race. I'm curious to see how well it plays out in a non-pandemic year.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Agree.

No, I am comparing these distances to an IM-distance race.
Which is VASTLY less spectator friendly and also much, much harder on frequent racers (i.e., pros trying to make a living)


But I also like these distances much more the the 70.3, because it favors swimming and running slightly more.

I think the olympic distance ratio is a sweet spot for balanced 3 sport competition.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Fixed it. I don’t really know but I don’t at all think of pro triathletes as spoiled 1%ers.

Some of them definitely are.

I don't think the Ironman or the PTO have any desire to fund production to the point of the events you describe. Production for Kona or any of the other IM events that they broadcast on Ironman Live is not cheap. To be at the level of a Golf Major or a World Series game is a significant hurdle for a sport that hasn't demonstrated an appetite for broadcast consumption. When you look at the numbers, clearly not enough people watch Kona or the race on IM Live.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Quote:

I think your NBA comparison is excessive, though. The point isn't to reach NBA-grade money. It's to get a small fraction of what Lebron *alone* makes feeding back to all pros so it's a viable way to make a living.

Recently listened to PTO head on podcast share a comparable target for long course tri = the LPGA in terms of the amount of money flowing through it. That's where they felt they could get it to, and that's why they had venture folks making the investments they were making.

Here's what that might mean for purses/ money list....

Typical purse:
https://thegolfnewsnet.com/...distribution-105122/

Lpga money list:
https://www.lpga.com/statistics/money/official-money

Especially because they have this incredibly odd “Donate to charity and we’ll send you a top-secret coverage link” format. It is like they actively want to discourage casual viewers.

I’m motivated to check it out, so I’ll do it, but it does seem to be a strange strategy.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

I think you’re not hearing me. I’m not talking about money. The production “values” are high because the people who produce them actually like the sport they are broadcasting and are connected to the fans of the sport and resonate with the things that happen in the slower timeframe. It’s different.

They don’t try to be something they’re not. Lean into the skid.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Then why have they tied their previous Collins Cup location and this to a mass participation race?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I think it’s super interesting to see this article.

Notable to me is that while a lot of knowledgeable triathletes might be critical of some details in this article ... and they’d be correct. I think it is still a home run for exposure for PTO and Challenge. Just my opinion.

This article shows that the organization got main stream media coverage in a worldwide publication on the day before their big event. The timing of this article was almost definitely not an accident. Kudos to the PR team.

I think streaming has changed TV - sponsor relationships - forever. That’s a guess. People have in the past speculated that an oversized chunk of WTC revenue might have from the NBC broadcast deal which .... who knows what the status of that is or what it’s worth anymore. I don’t know.

The impact of the partnership between the speedways as venues and Challenge - PTO isn’t really known yet. But I think it might be huge. It allows them to dramatically reduce the expense of closing roads which is kind of a big thing. We’ll see. Maybe it will grow ... maybe it will flop.

The pro pay issue is complicated and influenced by lots of things. I don’t fully understand it or have a solution idea. I personally think it’s possible the pro racing scene could change in format dramatically and we might not see as much change for amateurs. But I don’t know.

It seems to me (as an bystander with no pro experience or connection) that without a clearly defined path to progress and the potential to make a decent living as a pro triathlete there’s not much incentive to do it. How much does that matter to the sport for weekend warriors like me? I dunno.

I thought that the niche sport championship example in the article (I think it was darts) was more relevant than the comparison to tennis. It is tough for me to compare a financial viability model where spectators buy tickets to one where they don’t.

And those are my long and rambling thoughts on this. :-)