Because the supply chain is not flowing on bike stuff , it’s gone we are waiting
We are out of just about everything.
We have a waiting list on new bikes that might be here by the end of the year, maybe.

Yeah. I tired this recently too and all sources were out of stock. Figured it was a consequence of COVID production shortages with a surge in the need for bike parts supply.

If you find a source please let me know!

Probably because hydraulic hoses aren't a common replacement item since they don't experience normal friction wear. They also always pair to specifically-sized olive and barb, making it more natural to sell them as a kit than brake housing, which may or may not use some ferrule or another.

So there's just always less stock of bulk hose in general than housing.

let's talk about your points. because i'd like to know and i don't know.

yes, i know that SRAM requires their own stealthamajigs and olives; and shimano likewise. but are you saying you can't use a single hose source for both SRAM and shimano? because, if so, that's news to me. is that so? you can't use jagwire hose for which? SRAM or shimano?

by the book, every time you disconnect the line, you must cut off the part of the hose that's crimped - that contains the olive and needle - and that means every time you change a stem or for any reason disconnect that line, that is the process. if you behave according to manufacturer instructions. therefore, so far in this new hydraulic world, i'm finding that i actually use quite a bit of hydro hose.

i don't by my barbs and hose as kits. i buy bulk barbs and olives. as kits. i want bulk hose separately.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

In some parts of the world we can't buy anything useful from Shimano and that isn't going to change this year.
Shimano do (in theory) have a 30m reel of BH90 - part number Y13098582

I think I misrepresented the situation somewhat. You can use a single hose source, if that single hose source has ends compatible with the braking system you're connecting to. There's not a whole lot of room to safely mix-and-match ends and hoses, though. Sometimes you might get away with it, but not everything is as "same size" as it looks.


I think the vast majority of people almost never change stems or disconnect brake lines, though..


Yeah, I think it's reasonable. I just think it's understandable that the aftermarket isn't bigger than it is.

There are at least 3 standards that I'm aware of. Listed on the bulk box of Bengal brake line I have sitting here:

5mmOD/2mmID
5mmOD/2.3mmID
5.4mmOD/2.5mmID

So one size does not fit all...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

You do not need to change the olive just because you disconnected it.
I don't know anybody that does.
Only reason I would cut off the olive is to shorten the line or route it through a spot that the olive prevented it going through.

okay. thanks. what i hope that i might change, in my own small way, is that idea that we should just live with bikes that do not have the correct stem length. take for example the cervelo caledonia i've got on my workshop. it's a hydro brakeset, routed internally, thru the stem. the cockpit is too short on the bike i got. i needed a longer stem. so, i'm supposed to just live with it? hit the handlebars with my knees whenever i get out of the saddle? we are in a collision course right now in this industry between hydraulic brake and aero cockpit development on one hand, and bikes that fit on the other hand.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

this is why i prefaced this with, "by the book." you absolutely HAVE to change the olive/needle EVERY time you disconnect the line, according to most manufacturers (and SRAM certainly) because the action of tightening down the compression nut smashes the olive down on the hose, creating a seal, and that's a one-time use, a one-time operation. if you tighten the compression nut onto an already tightened olive, you won't get a certain seal. now, functionally, in the real world, i suspect a lot of people ignore that. but that's my understanding of this process "by the book."

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

No, you should fix it. But most people get their fit dialed in and then don't touch it for a long time, or at least, that seems to be the intention of the manufacturers. I'm not sure that the system that we're trajectorizing toward is great, but I think that's the logic behind it.

i asked cervelo about this, and they said they send this part of their bike unfinished so that the dealer can make a fit determination, stick the right stem on there, and then finish-build the bike. but here are my problems:

are we talking about a fit-first retailer? how many of those are there? how many retailers are going to go for this? because, most will want to showcase their built bikes, which means... building up the bikes.

i just don't see any real reduction in the number of stems that need to get changed on bikes. versus what there was before. i agree, that once you're dialed, you're dialed. the problem is, out of 20 new bike transactions on already-built bikes, how many need the stem changed? then, how many of those stems actually get changed? there's a delta in there, now, that didn't use to be there. the net result is that we have a process engineered to produce worse fitted bikes than used to be the case, in my opinion. we need a tech fix for this. an in-line hydraulic quick connect would be ideal.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Here is another issue with integrated front ends , example bmc SLR01.
When it’s time to change the head set bearings you have to run all new hoses.
I’ll be doing this in about a out year on a bunch I have built, keeps me employed nice service ticket$
Pretty sure Magura as a connector link on the MCi MTB

General question, because I haven't yet played with bike hydraulics, but what makes hydraulic tubes for bikes so special that you can't just use some other industrial hydraulic hoses? Hydraulic tubes and fittings (reusable ones too) have existed for decades before the bike industry got on board...

it is my guess that you can simply run a regular hydraulic hose, as long as it's to spec on ID and OD. but i don't know. mind, SRAM uses regular brake fluid; shimano uses mineral oil; so the hose would have to be fine with either.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Slowman wrote:

we are in a collision course right now in this industry between hydraulic brake and aero cockpit development on one hand, and bikes that fit on the other hand.

Bikes that fit don't appear to be a consideration anymore. Caledonia is a case in point - lost the C3/5 geometry which means Cervelo basically make one bike size range with different tyre clearances. On top of that we have the general malaise of changing anything on integrated cockpits exacerbated by hydraulics.

Having said that - I'd still like to see Cervelo put the stem from the Caledonia on the S3 as the quill stem it uses is a pain.

Check the bottom of this article for the No.22 Brake Break
https://bikerumor.com/2020/09/07/no22-bicycle-co-completely-stealth-frame-coupler-bleed-free-hydraulic-brake-splitter/


Which seems promising if it can be miniaturised - that design is not going to fit well in stems.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/362899408699

You are also meant to use Shimano brake grease upon assembly and torque with the Shimano crows foot too, do you do that?
The olive once crimped will never leak on the line, the only possible issue is the alloy body to brass olive interface.
The brass is soft and will conform multiple times unless you go monkey on it.
If the olive is in good shape then reuse it.
Shimano even shows reusing it in their quick swap without bleed for changing left and right lever operation.

i'm not arguing with you. i'm ambivalent on this. i don't know enough. i've experimented not only with a reuse of an already crimped olive, but doing the whole thing without a brake bleed. just to see how the bike performs. i do think there's a difference between shimano or SRAM saying, "use this brand of grease," or, "this is the right tool for the job," versus a technical imperative that is tied to safety. i don't think shimano would say, "the use of any other brand of grease is a safety hazard."

one problem with both SRAM and shimano, that hurts their credibility during discussions like this, is the unwavering adherence to the company line. when you overreach with the company line on the use of your products, then in such case where it's really important, you don't have credibility.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The thing with re-using the olive is that it's either going to leak or it's not. If you tighten it down and it's leak-free, it's not going to suddenly start leaking 100 miles later, so there's really no harm in trying to re-use it, and no safety issue. Worst case, you tighten it down and it leaks, and you replace it.

Actually, I thought the point of the stealthamajig was that you DON'T have to cut the end of the hose off. The needle, with it's external threads that are no larger in diameter than the hose itself, stay in the end of the hose. The special olive, with internal threaded portion, just unscrews and screws onto the end of the needle sticking out of the hose.

So, if needing to, let's say, mount a new handlebar with internal routing, then one just unscrews the olive and does the re-route. Then a new olive is screwed on prior to reconnecting.

I understand this doesn't address your concern with lengthening a hose, but I just thought I'd point out that your "every time you disconnect the line, you must cut off" statement doesn't apply to that particular product.

One can also un-thread the needle from the end of the hose as well and replace it with a new one, if that's necessary...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

i don't believe that's true. however, i can ask SRAM, again, and report back. however, this is from the designated person at SRAM, the person i'm supposed to ask, and this is a reply from this person the last time i asked:

"YES. You do need to use a new olive and Stealthamajig every time. The olive needs to crush under the 8Nm pressure of the compression hose nut, in order to deform and create a tight seal. Theoretically the barb is fine, but there’s no easy way to peel off a deformed olive off if it once it’s been mashed. You’d have to cut that whole bit off the end of the hose. The length of the barb is just under 12mm total- with the threaded end that enters the hose being about 8mm… so each time you remove this bit from the end of the hose, you’re cutting about 8mm from the hose at the very least."

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Huh...then what's the point in having it threaded? What's the advantage over that and a regular needle and olive? That's crazy...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

BTW, Jagwire appears to have "universal" hose and fittings you might be interested in...with options for colors! :-)

https://jagwire.com/products/hydraulic-hose

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

This thread makes me never want to use hydraulic brakes! Seems a pain.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

when i have tried fittings other than SRAM's stealthamajig and olive, i end up with epic fail. and that's even if i use avid needles/olives in an AXS system. no can do. i learned that the hard way. so, i have invested in a bulk buy of stealthamajigs/olives, and that's why i need bulk hose. if i have banjo bolts, and everything else, shimano and SRAM, i just need the hose.

there is terrific lack of knowledge and guidance on all of this. the brands are telling us we're all moving to hydraulic, for every use case. okay. you and i saw all of this, 3 or 4 years ago, and you know my posture on it: we can argue over the value of it, but the reality of it is apparent. it's going to be hydraulic. every brake on every kind of bike. okay. but the roll out of this has been terrible. as bad as i've seen in the bike business in my 40 years in it. the bike brands said, "we want hydraulic." so, the suppliers supplied hydraulic. but, when it comes to, "how do we work on it; how do we maintain the capacity to adjust the bikes to fit with it; where to we get the parts and sub-assemblies; what is cross-compatible with what; epic effing fail on behalf of this industry.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I don't know, but it may be that the AXS stuff is "stealthamajig only"? I now that was the case of the MTB brakes after they introduced it, although they also state it can be used on older models, just not vice-versa.

Yeah...this hydraulic stuff is a bit frustrating, especially the high-pressure disc stuff. It makes me appreciate the "simplicity" of the low-pressure Magura stuff used on their hydraulic rim brakes. Inexpensive single-wall plastic tubing and only an external olive (no needle required), so even if you have to cut the olive off, it's ONLY the width of the olive (i.e. less length loss)...although, IME one can quite often just pull the olive off the end of the tubing

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

hydraulic brakes can be a pain. and i guess they are right now. but they don't have to be. there are two technologies that are coming straight at us, they're here, the industry has demanded them, we have them, and they're tubeless and hydraulic. this thread is an outward expression of the gap between the knowledge and products we need, and the knowledge and products we have. behind the scenes i'm talking to brands about this.

on the one hand i'm certainly not the right guy to help solve this. one the other hand, i'm sort of the average joe, i ride bikes, i've got these bikes, i have to build them, work on them, and when i run into trouble i assume other people will run into trouble as well. so, i do expect that i'll be spending a fair bit of time writing about this, making videos and the like, because this thread just shows you the gap between the tech as it is presented to us, and the real world use of the tech.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yes, slowman is right. This is it works with Sram. Just built up several bikes with the Stealthamjig and really not possible to re-use the olive and barb. And you need to cut the hose about a cm to replace and set ip the new olive and barb.
But the bleeding of the Sram’s is much easier, faster and less hassle then Shimano’s bleeding. The easy and quickness sits in the fact that the syringes connect and screw in to the lever and caliper.


Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Interesting...I have the SRAM hydraulic rim brakes on my road bike. Just last year I needed to replace the carbon handlebar (w/internal routing) on the bike due to it being cracked in a minor crash. Additionally, the rear brake line also feeds internally in the frame. So, this meant having to cut the barbs/olives off of the hoses, and then they'll both be too short. Obviously, I could re-use the longer rear hose on the front (which I did) and I only had to source a replacement hose (w/banjo fitting on the lever end) for the front brake.

At the time, I saw the Stealthamajig option for the needle/olive configuration and figured "Hey, that's a good idea for if/when I need to do this again...I can just unscrew the olive and do the re-routing". Never thought that the olive ends up crimped onto the needle anyway. So, now I'm left with the question above...why did they do this? I'm not seeing the advantage over a regular needle/olive setup if it can't be "re-worked".

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

So far I've managed to avoid bleeding SRAM, but the comparison between Campag and Shimano bleeding is huge. Campag syringes are better, the threading into the caliper avoids fuss, no plastic bags.
Actually have a SRAM bike to build in the next day or two so will see how that compares to Campag.

Shimano bleed process just makes me think bike hydros are an immature technology.

Thankfully, there are aftermarket bleed kits that allow for Sram style bleeding of Shimano systems. Pretty hard to go back.

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

this along with all the other hydraulic joys in this thread, makes me think of https://xkcd.com/927/




and then I sing along with Maurice Chevalier, I'm glad I'm not young anymore..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RZEj7t1EaA

Cables will be good enough for me ;-)

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

There are, missed that. To what bleed kits are you referring to?

Thanks,

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

There are a metric crap-ton of aftermarket "generic" bleed kits that come with fittings for both Shimano and Sram (Campy/Magura as well, fwiw). Pretty much all of them utilize the two syringe method, for the obvious reason that it's just easier and faster. You will find a bunch of them on Ali Express and on Amazon. As a plus, the kits tend to be pretty darn inexpensive.

Personally, I'm using a kit that I pieced together from the best parts out of a couple of the generic kits, plus some actual Shimano branded bits. I have a pretty close to identical kit assembled for Sram bleeds. As I've cobbled stuff together (and don't actually remember what came from where) I can't give a solid recommendation for a kit, but all three that I more or less randomly ordered were pretty solid in their own right.

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Ya it’s easy and inexpensive to piece a kit together, this is my travel kit covers shimano,trp,Magura &sram.