No...

No

What's the danger if the swim is at the end?

I've not a tri historian or anything but I think the order of the disciplines is based on descending likelihood of death if a catastrophic fatigue-related failure occurs:

- Swimming: you're probably dead
- Cycling: you might be dead
- Running: unlikely to be dead

So freshest during the most dangerous leg.

This past weekend two of us did moderate rides, ~50 miles. We both got in the pool after the riding. Within a minute or two I had 2 cramps, one big one in my hamstring - the other in my calf. My buddy also got a couple of bad ones. I don't know if it was because the water was much cooler than the air temp or what, but it was a big eye opener for me.

1: Logistics for the race director and the safety crews on the water.
2:Weather
3:Fatigue
4:Nutrition (Not relevant for Super-Sprint and Sprint)
5:Daylight (For Ironman)

The longer the race the more difficult to manage and more dangerous it becomes.

Have you ever swum off a significant run before? It's not fun!

No, but I like to jump into deep water after running for recovery, especially when the water is cold. It is much better for me than staying on land.

Would love to see people trying to get wetsuits on whilst they are all sweaty from the rest of the race.

I did Eagleman a couple of times. its hellishly hot. I would have been very happy to swim after the bike and again after the run.

and even though watching sweaty people put on wetsuits would be hilarious, its still not a good idea. too much dying in the swim already. and time cuts, which are somewhat safety related.

There are a few reverse triathlons around. I’ve never done one.

Personally if I swim after a 90 minute or longer run I almost always get a crippling cramp. So for me it would be awful.

Absolutely not.
To generalize, as most triathletes do not come from a swimming background, they struggle with the swim when "fresh." Having them do a fatigued swim is a recipe for a wide variety of problems...especially in open water. Drowning.

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I heard it put this way once:

If you get tired biking you can stop and rest.
If you get tired running you can walk.
If you get tired swimming you can drown.

You don't want to be exhausted when you start swimming.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

While it is tough, I see no reason why in an Olympic or Sprint tri, you could not do 10-40-1.5 with the swim on a small out and back loop that is barely 200m out and back (first loop you enter 50m into the loop by running the loop parallel to shore).

It's doable for the short races. There is probably less risk of dying putting a swim at the end of an olympic tri when everyone is warmed up and relaxed and spread out than at the start.

For a sprint tri, it should be possible. The main issue is keeping the water access open from as early as 1.5 hrs into the start of the race, to 3.5 hrs in. Cut that in half for a sprint tri. But if its a short loop, maybe manageable at some venues.

Not necessarily.

But swim-run-bike triathlons are pretty cool, l have done several of these and there was WAY LESS drafting, so they were probably safer as well.

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I only thought of the fatigue issue and subsequent danger, and I hadn't thought of this at all. Is it wrong that I want to see this now?

No... and that is why they invented rolling start.

Also, given the average bike handling skills of triathletes... A bike mass start will be deadly.

I believe this was one of the tradeoffs at the American Triple T stage race triathlon that has a variety of event ordering and you had to decide on some stages if you wanted a wetsuit and all the time to put it on, or not.

Swim - run events have all kinds of swims after runs. Its all doable. Its just a different challenge and out of standard order events don't need to be mass 2000 person events. A 200 person post covid 5K run + 750m swim + 20K bike all distanced could be really good.

no

....or maybe "with the deteriorating of already bad bike handing from all the Zwifting triathletes suddenly on a real road 4-5x per year...."

We used to have a sprint tri with a 5K run and a 30-40K bike (different routes on different years) at Holloman AFB (Alamogordo, NM) that was run/bike/swim. Luckily, it was a pool swim where you could stand and touch bottom in most of the pool. (Outdoor pool at first, then an indoor pool, fairly cool water, 800 yards for a couple of years, then 400 yards, finally 700 yards). Lots of people were cramping during the swim and/or as they were getting out of the pool. We mostly chuckled about it, but things would have been dicey if we'd have been in open water over our heads.

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Nope, go watch Mario Mola at Island house tri a few years ago. and those are pros.

Years ago I did a reverse triathlon. It was in Cypress Gardens, Florida. Its now Legoland, I believe. It was Run, Bike, Swim. The run was beautiful through Cypress Gardens. I don't even remember the bike leg. The swim was 1/4 mile in open water. You ran down a hill from the bike transition, out onto a small dock and jumped into the lake. No diving was allowed off the dock. They actually had a rope strung to your right side along the entire route. Tons of people were hanging onto that rope. It was the worse swim I had done in 22 years of racing. Your entire blood supply is in your legs. You can swim all you want and you go no where really fast. I'm guessing that rope was there for a reason. I viewed it was quite dangerous doing the swim that tired and no blood supply to your arms.

Too many amateurs aren't good enough swimmers.

But, there are plenty of events where swimming isn't the first leg. I suggest you check out Super League and SwimRun.

Super League in particular has a great format called Triple Mix that does 3 mini-tris in different order. There is also the Enduro that is 3 mini-tris in traditional order with no break between. It's great and a better indicator of overall fitness and ability at all 3 disciplines (plus transitions are super important here). These formats really allow swimmers to do better. If anything they mask cycling ability since there is drafting and it's harder to break away.

SwimRun shows that you can have swims after runs (Otillo championship has a half marathon in the middle), but logistically you can't add in the bike unless you have a very specific, contained looping course.

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Mentioned a couple of times already but I'll reiterate. No, you will end with lots and lots of people with cramps. Very dangerous.

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It may be “a” cause. I don’t think it’s the only cause.

No, you will introduce all new stresses and logistical issues.

Same thing here I did a rinky dink one in the middle of Iowa probably 10 years ago. I came off the bike second and I was like this will be easy I can swim the guy down I’m only 10-15 feet behind him. Jumped in the water and it felt like I had never swam before. Most miserable swim in a race over ever done and that’s saying something.

The key word is "inexperienced". Strong technique + swimming endurance will yield confidence in water. This is gained by consistent long term swim training. There is also the existence of underlying heart health conditions that one must be cautious about. Regarding the positives of swim run, we need to remember that pull buoys and paddles are allowed (a triathletes swim dream) along with wet suits in those events. As to jumping in the lake after a hot run, yes, especially here in Las Vegas, but that is to recover, not race.

.
.
Super Sprints are no problem,sprints maybe,the rest not so much.
The Otillo and the other swim/runs have the competitors swimming with pool buoys and hand paddles to make the swims more manageable.

Video just because Lance is in it and it is fun to see people lose their mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo0BkNR9lcs

Otillo for those who have never watched it..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHGY5t9Vi48

I've only ever done a pool sprint that was a reverse tri. So only a 400m swim. I always felt worse after than than any Olympic Distance tri I've ever done.

But extrapolate this out. Swimming is the most technical of the three disciplines. Most deaths in triathlon happen in the water already. But instead of just heart attacks, you will have drownings, and a lot of them.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I did a race where the swim was put at the end of the race due to lightning. Not fun swimming 3.8km after running a marathon.. Finishing rate was bad.

If the swim was last it would be way too difficult to have your spouse, kids and dog with you as you cross the finish line.

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I've done a reverse sprint triathlon with a pool swim at the end -- 5K run, 20K bike, 500m swim. It wasn't bad. My experience was not cramping, but it was definitely harder to swim being already out of breath from the run and the bike.

If everything overnight switched to run-bike-swim, people would start training accordingly, bodies would adapt, and most people would be fine. Not everyone would be automatically doomed to cramping or poor swims just due to the order. It's not really normal for our bodies to do long swims followed by long bikes followed by long runs, but people train for it and their bodies adapt, and most people are fine.

As far as safety goes, I think you'd just be trading one set of issues and concerns for a different set, and there are some good reasons why the swim usually comes first.

I've not a tri historian or anything but I think the order of the disciplines is based on descending likelihood of death if a catastrophic fatigue-related failure occurs: //

Well I suppose that I'm sort of a historian when it comes to this stuff, and it was swim last in a lot of races in the first years of the sport. I did run/bike/swim and bike/run/ swim races, and there were a lot of them % wise back in the late 70's, early 80's. Dont remember anyone ever dying, but of course there were small numbers racing back then. And most were a lot tougher than todays athletes too, so some adversity was embraced, not avoided like is the norm today.


But it was super tough in those races, even for the best of swimmers. Yes there was a lot of cramping going on, and there was a lot of self rescuing going on too. And funny thing is that I don't remember there ever being lifeguards around either, so you knew you were on your own most of the time. Often some boat or paddler or two, but you just had to float sans wetsuit, and keep going to survive, a very good motivator.


And thinking about it, this order probably gets rid of most of the heart attacks we see today in the swims. There is not the anexiety of the start(mass or otherwise) and you are completely warmed up by the time you hit the water. I believe a lot of those missing factors would be enough to erase most of what happens in our swim starts. And with wetsuits now and lots of lifeguards, it just may be safer to have the swim last, although the finish % would probably go down..

New triathletes can't swim. Since the bike is earlier, people will also over-bike and cramp. It's such a bad idea that's it comical you suggested it. Get some experience in the sport and then form your own ideas based on reality. It's almost like a bad trolling attempt.

Ten years ago I did a run-bike-swim in hot weather in New Mexico, a pool swim sprint. While I wouldn't advise this normally or for open water swims, it really broke up the field to avoid pool congestion and most importantly was terrific to finish in the pool on a hot day.

For a pool swim event I'd prefer this over waiting in line for your pool start time.

I was at a race in the late 80s or early 90s and the swim was last. An athlete drowned that day.

Tim

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Read what Monty wrote. It has been done a lot in the past especially in sprint and Olympic length events. Not every race is an Ironman or half or needs to be one. Our sport does not need to be framed only by the needs of large ironman type events.

Maybe now is a great time for a resurgence of local events of all formats.

Another great format from an organizational angle is TT bike in a location where it is easy road and traffic wise and run from end of bike to entry into water and swim to finish. Or tack on another run to finish where you dropped off the bikes. If the swim is a pool swim then you just swim up one side of lane down the other and in an 8 lane pool you so all lanes up and down exit at far end and re enter start and repeat a second time for sprint and four times for olympic (well you would do 6 lanes twice on the fourth round for 1500m)

Classic case of dumbing down the sport for those who either shouldn't be doing mass starts yet or should just wait the few seconds for the mass to go and then start swimming at the back of the pack. Mass starts are one of the most exhilarating experiences in an Ironman that I really enjoy.

Most triathlons start first thing in the morning when there is least wind and the water is flattest and ultimately safest in my experience. Also water safety only have to be focused for minimal time not hours as it would be over a triathlon of any distance.

Fuck no. Have you seen the state of some of the "swimmers" exited the swim, they stagger onto the beach, barely alive.. can you imagine them trying to swim after 15 hours on the bike and run. It would be carnage.

My first 70.3 was IM 70.3 Kansas. I kept my head down until my hand touched bottom. As I was coming into shore my hand hit some guy's butt as he was being carried out of the water by one volunteer on each side. He was cramping so bad he couldn’t walk out of the water. Due to my own inexperience I wondered for a long time how that was possible. The reality is the guy was dehydrated before the event started. The swim at the end is just a really bad idea.

The other problem is the logistics. People in kayaks in the water for how long? Divers underwater etc. the swim support would have to be intact for far to long as the race streched out.

This is a very interesting question, and I'll throw my vote in with the minority camp that it might be better for sprint/oly distance to have swim last. Half and full IM distance, the fatigue and lack of fueling aspects become much bigger deals, as well as the difficulty of monitoring for long enough.

You can't easily train for the chaos of a mass start in the water, and it's also really hard for kayaks/divers to keep an eye on everyone in a crowded pack. But you can easily train for the stress of swimming after biking and running -- we just never do those bricks because of the typical order of events. Space things out by putting the swim last and a single athlete struggling becomes much easier to spot and manage.

A crazier idea to add on: if you put the swim last and that raises concerns about drowning safety, why not let people use swim aids, like pull buoy/paddles/fins (and possibly make the swim longer to compensate)? Presumably the best swimmers still do the best with such assistance... though I suppose these could still make passing other swimmers less safe. Wetsuits as the only legal assistance for swimming seems very arbitrary once you're not mass-starting.

Finally, regarding safety: why in the hell does USAT not make athletes pass some sort of swim test? I get that there are already enough barriers to entry that they don't want to make racing harder, but it seems crazy that they will give you a membership with no proof that you can swim!

TriHK is now implementing a swim test for people signing up the ASTC triathlon in October which is an Olympic distance held in rough water.

"triathlon" is not equal to "ironman".

I agree, for even half and full not a great idea, besides safety it is not practical. Sprint is totally doable, and likely for olympic too depending on venue.

But like anything on here, everyone assumes triathlon means mass start Mdot events. There is more to this sport (and I have done 31 full IM length events, so I'm not here IM bashing, I get the draw to them)

Just thinking about the carnage from IM Texas in 2016 when the hail storm came in. The course had to be cleared and all volunteers had to seek shelter. Now had everyone been swimming... Oh my. Dozens - maybe hundreds - of deaths from fatigued people freaking out, and with no one able to help, drowning. The next day bloated bodies floating to shore, birds munching on eyeballs.

It would have been the last IM Race ever contested.

I’ll go ahead and say this is not going to happen in an IM race ever.

Dev,

I always find it hilarious when the old timers here in the Tri forum complain about mass starts going away. But, most local tris take place in the pool...no mass starts there.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

If you overcook the bike, you'll walk the run. If you are cooked prior to the swim, you are likely to be in distress, especially if you push to the finish line.
Then there are some logistical issues like doing a mass start for cyclists, bike leg being insanely crowded, people putting on wetsuits in the middle of the day on a sweaty skin, etc.

Just a bad idea, imo.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

I’ll give my experience during the TripleT afternoon reverse Olympic race (Friday evening is a normal super sprint, Saturday morning is a normal, hilly, Olympic). I used the plastic bag trick to get my wetsuit on and the cold water felt great after a tough bike leg. First my right calf cramped, then my left. No big deal, just let the legs float. The cramp in my arm caught me by surprise. The real problem occurred at the end of the first swim loop. I thought I was close enough to the shore to hit bottom an run in. I wasn’t. As soon as I went vertical my entire body from the waist down went into a cramp. I quickly went horizontal and swam to shore, lower body still stiff. My wife was there and told me about all the groaning, yelling and screaming as everyone was cramping. TripleT doesn’t attract too many novices, there is no way an inexperienced swimmer could keep calm in that situation.

I did one reverse tri last year. It was sprint distance, with a 400m swim in a 50m pool. The water felt great, and minimal risk with several lifeguards present. But I would not do it in open water. I'm an experienced but not fast swimmer, and would not take the risk of swimming while already tired, even after sprint distance run and bike.

I always find it hilarious when the old timers here in the Tri forum complain about mass starts going away. But, most local tris take place in the pool...no mass starts there
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Most old timers complain about the mass starts going away because we really like mass starts. They've completely removed that format from our list of options.

Also, I don't know where you're from, but out around these parts the overwhelming majority of local sprint/ oly races are ows. Mostly wave starts by AG.

To the OP- I'm on board with the majority in that putting the swim at the end of a race might make it more interesting, but it certainly will not make it more safe. Swimming is already a major concern/ barrier to the sport so we want our fellow athletes at their best during that discipline.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Phoenix. 80% of races held here are pool sprints.

You may "enjoy" mass starts. But even without mass starts there are hundreds of rude triathletes in the water at every race that has had an OWS that I've been in. It honestly surprises me that there aren't more drownings because of this. It also surprises me that there aren't fights in the water as well. Mass Starts are not something that is necessary for this sport at all.

The closest thing I've had to a "mass" start has been deep water wave starts in Tempe Town Lake. Those are good enough for me.

I swim at a minimum 2x week when I'm training. Usually a third day that is OWS at a lake. So it's not like I'm uncomfortable in the water. What I'm uncomfortable with is people swimming over me instead of around me.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Remind me to stay out of Phoenix. Sounds like they don't know how to play nice out there. In upstate NY, we know how to get along. Finally, I found something about this region to be proud of!

Listen, I get that you don't like a mass start and I get why. If there's a mass start, you have the option of not signing up for that race. But, if I want to have a mass start race, there's no real option for it anymore. Diversity is good and extinction is bad.

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I understand you are from Hong Kong, so you may know this guy Mayank Vaid who did the fastest ever time for this out of order triathlon the "Enduroman": Run from London to Dover 140km, swim across the channel, bike 290km to Paris. Took him 50 hrs 24 min, which was the world record as of last Sept, so a "bit longer" than the Eurostar:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/...fCAL1xq5NkustdO.html

He probably would have smoked Mark Cavendish on the sprint finish on the bike in Paris had Cav done all legs too

How the hell are these races going to be wetsuit legal with the swim later in the day. Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Overcooked bike and run segments with dehydrated athletes jumping in for a non-wetsuit legal swim.

It would be hilarious to see some poor guy trying to get his $1,000 Deboer wetsuit on with sweaty ass legs, realizing he just put his entire leg through the calf area of his high end suit.

This has to be a wind up thread... but depending on how you timed making it back to the beach after the run and bike, theres a fair chance on a tidal course the sea would be out and youd be able to jog around the swim course, and it would definitely be safer in this case!

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

It's been done races in the past. At American triple T you had to decide if you wanted the extra time to put a wetsuit on a damp body or not. I do it all the time riding or running to open water swims. I have my transition down from arrival at tree beside beach, unpack my stuff, lock bike and bike gear and out on westuit and into water in 3 minutes (yes I time it because it's training for free speed....I was 2010 combined transitions world champion in my age group in Kona and 70.3 world's but it takes practice)...and 2 min the other way.

But on a no wetsuit sprint tri, I would skip the wetsuit in all but the coldest temps. As long as body heat is built up from other two sports its hard to lose 2 min over 750m. No way a wetsuit will give me 16 seconds per 100m but on an olympic 8 second per 100m is worth the wetsuit if it is really cold. If water is warm then it's a toss up.

Again, as I said many times in this thread it's doable on Olympic or sprint at small races. It may not attract people who rely on wetsuit only. It's ok. It would be a different type of race.

Look at swim run races. They have swims after runs all the time and you have to figure out what equipment you want to use for fastest race for you.

Swimrun is ALWAYS wetsuit legal. Why would anyone want to do this type of race? Outside of Superleague which features the top ITU young guns nobody runs triathlons like Triple Mix Style. I don't think many average joes are built or trained for this style of racing. That's probably part of the reason you don't see it.

Hey, what I am trying to suggest, is there is room for all kinds of formats. The sport has had them in the past and can have them any time we want. They don't need to be 2000 person events. There is room for 50 person events, with pool swims or small contained open water swim legs. Without the congestion of the early part of the race, having the swim in a sprint or olympic format at the end in a contained area becomes something that is pretty doable from a logistics angle. Even a short 200m out 200m back loop parallel to shore and the race is not bothering anyone in many venues

I’ve done run bike swim tris

I prefer them

Also have done swim run bike

Like those even more

We have swimrun in our country but wetsuit is never used because the water is too hot.

I'm interested to do swimrun orienteering which route choices involve either going on land or going in water. This is freaking more fun than traditional swimrun.

It's just fortunate that the swim is in the water. Sounds like if it wasn't, would've been a gun pulled on someone by now.

In the mid to late '80s in Aust, we had Aquathon events. They were a reasonably popular diversion on the growing tri scene.

The events involved a 5 km run followed by an 800 metre open water swim. You'd run in your speedos and carry your goggles, then shoes off as you hit the sand and adjust your googles as you sprinted into the water.

Some races were held in the morning, some in the afternoon allowing you pick up a second race for the day after doing something longer that morning, and there was a Wednesday evening series you could race after work. Pretty much no infrastructure for most, just a volunteer at the run turnaround, a single buoy to swim around in the ocean, river or lake, and someone writing down finishing times.

Hurt like hell, red-lining all the way for 30+ minutes, but awesome fun!

Ever tried to swim 2.4 after a marathon? Or even after a hard effort 10k? It’s very difficult for most triathletes.

You keep using 200m as a reference. If you’ve done any local events, you would appreciate that 200m from shore is a long way away for inexperienced swimmers that rule such races. I could maybe see like 15 meters out and swim along shore line, but 200m is not “safely” close to shore.

Maybe I did not explain it well. 200m out and back but both our and return legs parallel to shore. Makes the monitoring easier.

Years ago, I did a 5k with a 500 yard or less ocean swim at the end. Went into the water feeling great and went into my stroke and realized my heart was beating out of control. Never got it under control and can remember body surfing a wave in and thinking I might drown in the wave.

I have done a few aquathons which involves swims after runs, including swim-run-swim-run or even swim-run-swim-run-swim-run. It was really fun.

With all due respect this is a terrible idea. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

In all seriousness people would drown.

SwimRun is an actual event.

That's how Magnum did it, which is fine for me [although he DID get DQd for turning around on the bike, and going the wrong way to catch the bad guys in the Botanical Gardens ... but TC got the Island Hoppers logo on the news, so it all worked out OK]

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Sorry, but who is magnum ?

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I wrote this, you should read it:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Swimming_6700.html

And do you bike in a swim run?? Yea lets bike 112, run 26.2 and then swim 2.4

From a blood-flow, cardio-vascular standpoint, I say YES. Tired? Supposed to be athletes here.
Run is the most taxing heart-rate wise.

Cramping as mentioned is an issue (bike>leg cramps) but you won't die from it.

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No, you don't bike, but it can still be quite a bit of effort, with dehydration and exhaustion without having a bike thrown in there. Which one is harder is certainly debatable.

For reference, as an example, in OtillO, you do run a total of 41 miles and swim a total of 6 miles... broken up into 26 runs and 26 swims. The longest being a half-marathon and a little over a mile respectively. in some rough water at times...


https://speedylizard.com/2015/09/25/cold-water-and-wetsuit-runningotillo-swimrun-world-championships/




In Rockman, it's only 10 runs / 10 swims, and only 22 miles / 3.5 miles respectively... but you do add in 8000 feet of elevation gain on the runs... and can be a little technical, so although there's no bike involved, the amount of climbing being accomplished can still add quite a bit of exhaustion/effort in there.


https://speedylizard.com/2018/08/11/rocks-in-my-shoes-rockman-swimrun/

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Nobody is questioning the effort required in Swim/Run events but what you have blatantly failed to recognize is the floatation/swim aids that are used in these events,something that makes swimming much easier and safer and something that is not allowed in conventional triathlons.Allowing these items as standard equipment is addressing the exact issues we are talking about when we say having the swim at the end of a triathlon is a bad idea.

Yep you said that perfectly.

No:
1) breathing hard from a race effort in run/bike/transition makes it hard to breathe while swimming; and
2) goggles fog over, then fog clears when they fill up with sweat, but you can't wipe the sweat away and it burns

I did one run-swim-run event and retired from the concept.

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<The Dew Abides>

I think "blatant" is a bit harsh... I was simply replying to someone stating that there is no bike in swimrun.

However, the flotation and paddles are added to offset the fact that you are swimming in shoes and with a full bib (shirt) on over your wetsuit. (lots of drag)




You should try it sometime and see if the aids make it easier than swimming without shoes and a bib. You might be surprised. In my humble opinion, it is offset at best, but not made easier.

I would agree with you that the flotation does add a level of safety, although I don't think too many people could use their buoy as a safety device like a lifeguard buoy.

I guess I was just trying to *politely* make a point that there's a similar level of exhaustion towards the end of these races and yet swimming still happens.

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The types of people who do Otillo and Rockman are not the BOP moms/dads you see at your local tri or even IM. Just because those races exist it does not mean it would be equally safe for the BOPers who can barely walk to the finish line.