I feel like I want this. Any sense of its legality for IM branded races?

And people say Hokas are ugly...

Hard to believe that stack height is 40mm, but I'm sure it's right on

They needed to get these out ASAP to get compliant with the 4 month rule

More interesting to me is the Alphafly track spike

Fast is beautiful

I’m very curious about the weight. Would this be heavier or lighter than current Next% or same?

I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.

Forget minimal running... shoe stack limit is set... The 'maximal running' era has begun

So how are these Nike shoes comfy/cushy factor when compared to Hokas? I have a lot of experience running in Bondis, Cliftons, and Rincons.

So how are these Nike shoes comfy/cushy factor when compared to Hokas? I have a lot of experience running in Bondis, Cliftons, and Rincons.

Reminds me of my O.G. Strength Shoes from the 90's:

Reminds me of my O.G. Strength Shoes from the 90's:

Just know that If you PR in these Nikes you’re only kidding yourself, you haven’t necessarily become a better athlete due to discipline and hard training (or at least you’ll never know for sure).

But whatever, a PR is a PR I guess. Just had to put my thoughts into words. Carry on

Okay, boomer

Just know that If you PR in these Nikes you’re only kidding yourself, you haven’t necessarily become a better athlete due to discipline and hard training (or at least you’ll never know for sure).

But whatever, a PR is a PR I guess. Just had to put my thoughts into words. Carry on

Nike is absolutely crushing it. If the Next (or soon Alphafly) doesn't work for you--you are at a disadvantage. If you don't get them for some "principled" reason, you are making a mistake.

However, as a PSA, I'd like to caution all M60-64 YOs to not use them--they are not built for our Age Group!

I see no issues with these, if people want them and they improve their performance then great.

However, they are no substitute for consistent training, getting enough decent sleep and eating well. Most of us would see far greater gains by nailing the basics but like everything in life, every little helps.

Personally I still run in a more minimalist shoe as the Next% are way more than my talent would benefit from. I may well make the shift at some point but not until I think there would be a real tangible benefit versus the cost.

Also what is the difference with the Alpha and the current next 4% or whatever it is called?

Haven't shoes always been involved? Going back to the 60s at least.

Flyknit 4%: Less thick. Shoes fit like socks.
Next%: Sole/foam is thicker and more bouncy than 4%
Alpha Fly Next%: 3 carbon plates and air pockets.

Well...

when a realistic comparison will be made between the various "new generation shoes" such as 4%, Next, Alphafly, Endorphin Pro, Hyperion Elite, NB Racer RC (the lighter version, not the TC), Skecher Speed Elite, future Hoka, .... and possibly some others...

ideally at different speed, different runner weight, different foot strike, different stability request ...

then we will be able to really say what shoes give an advantage for a given runner.... or just empty your wallet and dilate your ego.

Now, we don't know.

Some serious study published 2 years ago indicated VF4% was really delivering a 2 to 4% advantage compared to old racing flat.
But how do the "new generation shoes" compare each other.... we have no clue, really.

So how are these Nike shoes comfy/cushy factor when compared to Hokas? I have a lot of experience running in Bondis, Cliftons, and Rincons.

Flyknit 4%: Less thick. Shoes fit like socks.
Next%: Sole/foam is thicker and more bouncy than 4%
Alpha Fly Next%: 3 carbon plates and air pockets.

WSJ detailed both of these questions which I also had. Apparently 39.5mm stack height and April 30th is the magic date (I thought it would be April 8th, being exactly 4 months from the women's marathon, but it seems I was wrong)

https://www.wsj.com/...mpic-ban-11580929200

For those that think these shoes are cheating or your R doesn't count. Then I will expect you to take your aero wheels off, your power meter and maybe even your aerobars

I mean we don't want any technology to make you faster.


.

I love the shoes, but really hate Nike at times and this is just one reason.

Gosh I wonder why the stack height limit is 40mm I’m sure it has jackshit all to do with the new Nike shoes being 39.5mm /pink

We get your point, nothing to show about shoes that haven't yet come out, the point were making is that for all the shoes that have come out, Vaporfly has proven to be better, so if Nike continues to improve upon that while all other shoe companies are releasing their answers to the 4%, they're already two models behind and will likely continue to be behind.

As for the strava study, one view alone would be difficult to believe but the fact of the matter is that they did 4 different views of the shoe and all 4 view proved to show VF above all else. Sure the data can be faulty at times given it is self-reported but it is a massive amount of data so the errors mostly even out. Do you hate the study just because you hate Nike? It sounds like a bit of bias to me. Not that I blame anyone for hating Nike but this study was done by NYT

I bought a VF4%. Not working for me. Too unstable. Dangerous in fact. Fair enough, stability is important.

What is the cause of your inherent lack of stability?
Could you have the best of both worlds (stability and fast shoes) if you dealt with the instability in a different manner?
Many try to solve a "top-down" problem, with a "bottom-up" solution. For example, knee valgus may be corrected (depending on the etiology) by both increased "stability" at the foot or increased stability at the hip.

Not to defend Nike but don't all companies try to do this? I am thinking especially in the Bike world, where UCI's silly restrictions limit innovation. The same could be said about these super bikes that come in at 6.9kg. If high foam is the answer for all shoe companies then it would make sens for all of them to toe the line if it means competing or beating the VF.

You’re looking at it a different way. I have no problem with companies bumping up to the absolute limits of the rule.

However, Nike had this shoe prior to the ruling, it was only last Friday. They didn’t adjust the stack height and make an announcement in 6 day’s and beable to have a production ready shoe by end of the month.

It makes me feel like the rule was made with no thought about why they were making the stack height limit at 40mm, beyond Nike being pissed if it was lower because they’d need to redesign their shoe. So they said fine we’ll include your shoe, put the limit at 40 and we’re good. Otherwise why isn’t the limit 35 or 45.

Personally I think a limit is stupid anyways, but was hoping if there was a limit there would be science involved. This reeks of the science being Nike having a shoe already in production that they didn’t want to scrap.

Fast is beautiful

But who care. The VF and the Next are dead now. Nobody will buy them now.

The VF is inherently unstable. It is a proven fact.

The Next is better, but still perfectible.

I do not hate the Strava study.
I have done scientific studies, and regularly read and review scientific thesis.
The Strava study does not appear to me as "serious". Not serious basis. That is it.

I know the VF4% is 2 or 3 or 4% better than a race flat. Because there is serious studies proving it (not the Strava one).

The VF4% was not good to me. Nothing personal. I still recognize Nike effort to develop a very interesting direction, with high cushion and the carbon plate. Too bad they made it so unstable.

I'm happy other shoes from several brand follow the same direction.
Because I will find a good stable shoe for me, efficient and confortable :-)

What I say now is : there is absolutely no evidence the Alphafly is better than the Saucony Pro, or similar shoes following the same geometry / principles.

If a reasonable statement is "hate" to your eyes, what can I say ?

These are not facts.

These are not facts.

These are facts you don't accept.

On point 3 I promise you that those who have run in them are producing better times. I'm done commenting on that though.

Read again my point 3

I'm talking about comparing with "new generation" shoes from other brands.
Using similar geometry, similar foams, similar plates...

We are not in 2017, 2018 or 2019 anymore. The "better time" are compared to older shoes. it is old story, now.

Nike HAD an advantage. Sure. I know that, everybody know that.
Is it still there ?
No evidence.

You are correct.

The VAST majority of runners have no issues with these shoes. I have no doubt that they aren't for le Wolf, but just because they don't work for him doesn't negate the fact that they are phenomenal for the majority of runners without his injury issues.

Trust me, I did not want to love these shoes. I've never used Nikes. In the past 1.5 years since trying them (and training in Peg Turbos 1 & 2) I've never been faster, healthier and more consistent.

At some point the philosophical question, "what constitutes a shoe and at what point does the ADDITION of outside (not true to the essence of the definition of a shoe) influences, specifically the carbon plates and now the air pods-cease to make the new product an actual shoe?" Regardless of whatever ruling has just been handed down, my personal point of view is that these are not shoes. I was and continue to be a fan of Nike, in spite of all of their negative publicity. I'd actually be embarrassed wearing these, especially during my run/walk (like majority of IM athletes) over the last half my Ironman marathon.

The VF is inherently unstable. It is a proven fact.

Can you cite a reference or source for this claim ? (genuine question)

1) in the last 3 years, these are the only shoes who injured me. Because of lack of stability. I use them once or twice a month, and each time I heel strike I feel the torsion.
I ran with more than a dozen of other shoes since I bough them, and use them, none are so unstable.
For me, these are the most unstable shoes I have ever run.

2) Several other peoples mentioned in this forum being injured by this shoes (if you are a regular reader you probably saw that also) because they found them VERY unstable

3) Dan himself mentioned he found them very unstable.

4) if you have a pair, look at them : there is no medial side

5) if you have a pair, put them, relax, and you will fell your feet falling on the medial side

Can you cite a reference or source for this claim ? (genuine question)

Dude, cool it. We get it, you don't like the shoe. That's ok. But we don't need to hear about it anymore! Stop spoiling the thread about new things coming out by an innovative company that makes racing shoes better than anyone else better than the planet right now.

Back to normal readings folks. Anyone have updates/news about the exact release date for these, the new sets of spikes that are coming out, or the race flats that might be coming out?

Anyone have updates/news about the exact release date for these, the new sets of spikes that are coming out, or the race flats that might be coming out?

Dude, cool it. We get it, you don't like the shoe. That's ok. But we don't need to hear about it anymore! Stop spoiling the thread about new things coming out by an innovative company that makes racing shoes better than anyone else better than the planet right now.

Back to normal readings folks. Anyone have updates/news about the exact release date for these, the new sets of spikes that are coming out, or the race flats that might be coming out?

So 2/29 is the date when they should be released online. I have read though that this will be a one-off very limited release. My local running store has however mentioned that they expect a wider release in March. But not sure if this is their guess or an info coming from Nike...

I also read that the new trainer shoe would only be released after Tokyo. No idea for the spikes, and the new iteration of the turbo (« turbo next »).

So 2/29 is the date when they should be released online. I have read though that this will be a one-off very limited release. My local running store has however mentioned that they expect a wider release in March. But not sure if this is their guess or an info coming from Nike...

I also read that the new trainer shoe would only be released after Tokyo. No idea for the spikes, and the new iteration of the turbo (« turbo next »).

I’m really interested in the trainer if it’s better than the Pegasus turbo

The heal cup is awesome. Its (the vaporfly) was the first heal cup that didn't hub/hurt my Achilles.

The knit upper? Well Nike's last knit upper sucked when I got sweaty so we will have to see on this one.

Yeah that looks like a quality trainer. I bet they price it at or around or slightly above the Zoom Fly 3 pricing.

Hopefully it is not as heavy as the ZF3

Yeah, I think I've seen the 2/29 date floated around somewhere for pre-release, and 3/15 for the official one for the alphafly?

Would be interesting to see if they only release the alphafly by itself, which means all track Nike athletes can't wear the new stuff - or if they release it all at once

Ran religiously in every version of the Clifton to date. The Nike Next% shoes are much "bouncier" and have considerably more "cushioned feel". Almost like running on Memory Foam. Clifton's feel firm by comparison, IMO. Even my Peg Turbo35's that have no carbon plate; but are half React Foam/ half ZoomX foam feel "cushier" than my Hokas.

The black magic in the Nike shoes is primarily the ZoomX foam. It's very light, very soft, and you get a spring-load return boost with every stride. Best I can describe it is super-spring memory foam feeling.

Bought a pair of the ZoomX Vaporflys. They are bouncey. Weird feeling. First run in them tomorrow.

Next%

I would love to buy a pair of the Vaporfly Next% but I’m in Australia and they have disappeared from the web site (about a week ago). Even though they are showing good availability in the US Nike site, for Australia (and all other countries I checked) they are unavailable :(.

There is not a shoe called “ZoomX Vaporflys.”

There is the Vaporfly 4% and Vaporfly Next% - both have ZoomX foam.

I also get a "The product you are looking for is no longer available" in the Netherlands.

Question now is, do I wait for the Alphafly, which might be too expensive for me, or do I try to get a next% somewhere in a local store/webshop (and maybe not have the fastest option during my april marathon)....

Be careful when you buy them. I had to get Next% one size up. My size was too tight. Some people say fit perfectly and some say they went one size up. Try them first if you can.

But you’re wrong....

https://www.nike.com/running/vaporfly

Thnx for the advice. I guess I can go by the sizing of the Zoom Fly 3 (which is larger than the model before that, the Zoom Fly flyknit)... Or is the sizing of the Next% not the samen as the Zoom 3?

I have 3 pairs of Nike shoes and they are Pegasus Turbo, Vaporfly 4% and Next%.
I wear men's size 8.5. Pegasus Turbo and 4% fit perfectly, but Next% was so tight my toe was hitting the end, so I had to get size 9.
I didn't like that, but I had no choice. If you go to Youtube and watch reviews on Next%, you will see some people got one size up.

Yeah same feeling for me in Next%. The 4% were perfect at 11.5 with the Flyknit alleviating any tightness.

I got the Next% in 11.5 and it tapers down towards the edges with little give and was tight on the top too. It felt too tight standing in them with socks. I found the thinnest ultra thin sock I could find and they feel ok running. I am doing a 26.2 race on 3/15 and will have to see how they turn out. I really didn’t want to 1/2 size up in these - I hope it’s ok. I almost sent them back, but then read reviews that they stretch a little over time so am banking on a slight break in period.

I really love all of Nike’s Flyknits though. I’ve had the Flyknit Racers, Flyknit Mariahs, and my training shoe is the Zoom Fly Flyknit. I wish they would just make another iteration of Zoom X foam with the Flyknit. I can’t imagine how hard it’s going to be getting on these Next% properly in a Tri. The 4%s were just slip ons for me.

I'll bet anything WTC never considers banning this. The only way that may happen is if the PTO actually does take-over WTC.

And people say Hokas are ugly...

I wear an 8.5 in the zoom Fly 3 and a 9 in the next%
I have been wearing Brooks forever and run in the various Launch models and wear a 9.5 in those.

Shoe sizes are messed up - always try on if you can before buying.

Yeah, I think I've seen the 2/29 date floated around somewhere for pre-release, and 3/15 for the official one for the alphafly?

Would be interesting to see if they only release the alphafly by itself, which means all track Nike athletes can't wear the new stuff - or if they release it all at once

I wear an 8.5 in the zoom Fly 3 and a 9 in the next%
I have been wearing Brooks forever and run in the various Launch models and wear a 9.5 in those.

Shoe sizes are messed up - always try on if you can before buying.

I wear a 11.5 in the Zoom Fly 3 and they feel great, but have 11.5 in the Next% and its pretty tight. I could send them back.

Do you like the Zoom Fly 3 or Next% better?

I’ve heard rumors that we’ll see a lot of the Nike pros running in next%, not alphafly on Sunday. I was all aboard the train trying to get a pair of these but now I am not sure.

Shoes sizes are really messed up. They are not consistent. I tried three different pairs with same size and one of them felt less tight than other two. There’s a slight variation so be careful when you buy Next%. Half of the people say true to the size and the other half say go for one size up.

I hope everyone looks at the shoe specs first. It’s a 4mm drop. Going to be VERY different from the 8mm Next and 11mm 4s

I wish the drop were more to be honest - I like 10mm-11mm.

You don’t do anything new on the race day so that totally makes sense. No matter how good they are I would be hesitant to run in them without any training.

Has anyone seen when the tempo next % are being released? I was thinking they’d come with the Alphafly today but does not look like they were released.

I logged in and tried to buy a pair at exactly 1000ET when it opened up and my size (11 and 11.5) was already sold out and by 1001 they were sold out of just about every size. Such BS

I logged in and tried to buy a pair at exactly 1000ET when it opened up and my size (11 and 11.5) was already sold out and by 1001 they were sold out of just about every size. Such BS

Got the text message, clicked the link, the only size available was 7... but the price of $275 is not as bad as I thought it would be. Guessing the stock that could have hit the market is wholly impacted by their free shoe giveaway in Atlanta.

So is StockX like an ebay? Or are they like a broker that re-sells shoes like brokers use stubhub?

Indeed, most Nike pro have them for awhile.

The reason some Nike pro will not run them is, IMO, the consequence of "performance spreading".

If you look in detail the lab results of tests of the Nike VF 4% (performed in 2016, 2017, ...with elite or semi-elite runners) you noticed the "average gain" of the VF4% was around 3 or 4% compared to old flats (Streak, Adios). This was the origin of the name : 4%

But the individual gain for each runner was roughly between 0% and 6%, depending on the runner. This is "performance spreading". Not all runner respond the same way to the VF4% in term of performance (let aside stability). Each runner respond differently to the front/heel softness, plate, ... all this coming from the high stack of good foam + plate.
This was much less the case with old flats, as they were very very similar, "perf spreading" for these shoes was nearly negligible.

6% of difference between runners, with same shoes, is not negligible, it is huge.

The VF4%, the Next and the AlphaFly are different shoes. Maybe the average gain of the Alphafly comparing to old flats is "in average" 5% (just as an exemple), better than the VF4%.
But again, individually for each runner the gain can be between 0 to 10% (just as an exemple).

Each runner individually respond to each of these shoes in a different way. Maybe the Next give you +5%, and the Alphafly +3% compared to old flats. Or the opposite.

Maybe you respond better to the Next, maybe you respond better to the Alphafly. So, if you are a Nike pro, you test and then you choose. Except if your contract prevent you to choose.

If you are not a pro, like me, the only way to know which shoes are best for me will be to test them seriously. How do I really respond to each of them ?
There is now 3 Nike models, 2 Saucony, 2 New Balance, one Brook, ... probably having this kind of "perf spreading" due to individual runner response to the foam / plate shape / geometry / stability / ...
Choice will take into account performance, confort, stability, look and price.

Or you can rely on testers such as RTR.
For exemple, from initial tests, the Brooks Hyperion Elite seems seriously targeted at runner much faster than me.

Maybe we can anticipate there will be a service similar to "bike fit" or "wind tunnel" to have a real insight on how each of us respond to each of these "new generation" shoe model. Several % gain choosing the right model, heck, why not.

Plus, Atomknit means no more separate tongue. The shoe should be more of a "slip-on" than with the Next%, which requires you to fiddle with its tongue.

I hate this part of the Next% - difficult to get on quickly for me compared to 4% or ZF2, ZF3

I hate this part of the Next% - difficult to get on quickly for me compared to 4% or ZF2, ZF3

7/2/20?

They will all be on StockX shortly.....grrrrrrr

Give a couple of stitches and sew the tongue on both sides. That’s the only way.

WHY IN THE WORLD DO THEY KEEP WITH AN UNSTRUCTURED UPPER?

Throw that knit out and get me a decent heel cup.

AMEN!

Heck the heal cup was one of the reasons I bought the Next %. Its awesome.

Not the next % because I only have like 50 on them but I have over 300 on my original vaporfly and 200 on the flyknits and I would guess the Next will get more mileage because of the differences on the sole. Both of my older pairs have some pop and I use them for tempo/long runs and legs still feel good.

were you aware of the drop off in effectiveness of those shoes?

I would NOT use eBay. I have bought several pairs through StockX.

were you aware of the drop off in effectiveness of those shoes?

Yup. That is why less than 50 miles in the Next%. Those are race shoes. Each pair gives me a year of races then move to training shoes. No races this year so Next% have been sitting in a box outside of a 5k TT I did a few weeks ago. The older pairs do not have as much pop or spring but still better than pretty much any other shoe in my rotation (including Turbo II and ZF3, getting GOrun Razor 3s today to test out as well).

And if races happen next year I will get a new pair of Next%/Alphas for next summer/fall and rotate current Next% to training shoe.

I am more curious about whether the zoom fly has a similar effect on "saving" legs, even if it isn't as good as vaporfly, and then how long the effectiveness lasts on those. I have two pairs of the zoomfly and did run a track 10k last week and felt great the next day so I suppose so but that was only the second time I ran in those shoes.

No, it’s the foam not the plate that saves your legs. Peg Turbos are ok for this, but have less of the foam, so not as great.

This, I tried the Zoom Fly 3 and they were too stiff, hurt my feet and legs so returned them after 2 runs. Went back to using my Peg Turbos for long and tempo runs.

I have the endorphin pro and ran in them all last week. Stiffer and doesn't have as much pop as VF or next. I think the first and second version of VF had the best foam. I'm not sure about the next. Endorphin feel pretty harsh.

Have you tried the Saucony Endorphins? A good friend is also a huge fan of the Peg Turbos, and he has recently ditched them for the Endorphins.

You probably didn’t get them.

How this order work? Luckily, I was able to place an order on 8/13, but no emails or communications from Nike at all. I logged into my account, but order is not there.
Well, when I placed an order it wasn't actual order though. It said 'Get in line'. Anyone know how this thing work?

Curious if anyone knows the release date for the Next% Tempo that is set to release "soon"?

That white color on Eastbay though idk - I like the Black Green better ... sucks there is no choice? I wonder if Dick's is the same inventory.

Is the alphafly next% legal for IM

As far as I know, they are legal. They've reached the maximum height, so that's it. Shoe manufacturers can't make shoes higher than Alphafly. You better keep them.