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Wurf to ITU
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In his post Kona blog post Cam mentioned switching over to ITU style racing for a while, has anyone heard anything more about this? Would be real fun to see what he can do on the bike course, and prob good for his opening swim speed if he can latch on to a group.

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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oscaro wrote:
In his post Kona blog post Cam mentioned switching over to ITU style racing for a while, has anyone heard anything more about this? Would be real fun to see what he can do on the bike course, and prob good for his opening swim speed if he can latch on to a group.

Come on, he is just trolling, and you fell hard for it.

He cant swim or run nearly fast enough for that.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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haha.. he got you!
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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In that case I will crawl embarrassed back to my pain cave

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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He mentioned in a video with AMP Human that he wants to go to the Olympics next year:

He's listed on the start list for the Santo Domingo ITU World Cup in November: https://www.triathlon.org/...lon_world_cup/339013
Last edited by: cxrider: Oct 17, 19 1:12
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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oscaro wrote:
In his post Kona blog post Cam mentioned switching over to ITU style racing for a while, has anyone heard anything more about this? Would be real fun to see what he can do on the bike course, and prob good for his opening swim speed if he can latch on to a group.

He is on the start list for Santa Domingo world cup early December, so not a joke.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Well that’s awesome! Look forward to watching that

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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Wurf will do some damage on the bike leg. Bike handling comes into the equation in ITU, and he's got a massive advantage. Willing to bet that he's down to race all the big crits in Melbourne this summer.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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He mentioned it in the Kona post-race press conference. He said he wants to try to get a slot for the 2020 Olympics, and that he will need to work (a lot) on his swim for ITU races.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [42x16ss] [ In reply to ]
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End of season world cups are never as strong fields as earlier in the year. There are no big swim bikers on the start which will be a big advantage for him. Couple of pretty good runners listed though.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [cxrider] [ In reply to ]
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Given the way the ITU works and what a closed shop the Aussie team has been historically, I don't give Cam a chance in hell of getting Olympic selection . Politics rules and Cam is an interloper on the ITU stage.Stranger things have happened and I'll be very interested to see how he performs in the World Cup race as it has some better than average athletes racing a few of whom have been racing Super League as well.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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It's purely to work on his swimming.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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I definitely thought it was a troll job on Macca, but now that hes actually entered in an ITU race (however weak) I'm thinking he might have actually been somewhat serious (about using an ITU focus to improve his weaknesses - not actually getting to the olympics).
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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If Aus aren't looking for him to podium at the Olympics but to help someone else he may have a small chance. One Aus guy only has been on the WTS podiums in the last few years, no one else appears a lock in. Why send someone to finish in top 20 if someone else can likely help get a country podium. In saying this I don't think Aus has ever used domestiques before so don't really know if they would be for or against this idea.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [42x16ss] [ In reply to ]
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42x16ss wrote:
Wurf will do some damage on the bike leg. Bike handling comes into the equation in ITU, and he's got a massive advantage. Willing to bet that he's down to race all the big crits in Melbourne this summer.

OMG, this is so funny. He won't even be in the first pack.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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Cam is in dire need of a copy editor.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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I think the bigger question is can he actually score points? He's going to be low out of the water, have only 55 mins to play catch up and then hold on with the run?

Now if he can actually make the qualifying points he'd be hell of a domestique. He's going to be up against 2 of the top 10 runners in the sport w/ McElroy and Pearson. Pearson likely will with Hemming make front group. McElroy less likely to be guranteed front pack swimmer.

An 1:50 race he must come within 5mins30s of the winner to score points

An 1:45 race he must come within 5mins15s of winner to score points

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Top 140 olympic ranking is required to make Olympics.

140th right now is ranked w/ 564 points.


World Cups get 500 points max for winner.


I mean I get why he didnt race before Kona, but this pathway should have been done after last year's Kona. I dont think he's going to have enough events to actually get the required ranking.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I think the only question is will he be close enough in the swim to get into 2nd pack this time out. I think he swims better than his ironman swims have shown, so perhaps the shorter distance will be better for him. And as he said, now it will be a heavy swim focus, not like he doesnt know how to swim properly, so some sprint fitness could go a long way.

With that out of the way and a huge ?? for this first race, how much time can he make up on his own in the first 10 miles on the group, if any at all? I would assume if it is a technical course, he could take a big chunk very early, a kind of all out effort, with the carrot of getting a draft to recover. It is what he is used to doing when he biked raced, so wouldnt worry about him overcooking too much.

So if he can get to a pack, even merge with the lead group at some point, I think he maybe only loses 3 minutes or less on the 10k, so scoring some points. If he ever gets his swim down to where he can bridge up quickly, he may even have a chance to form breaks on the bike, in which case he moves up the ladder. He would be a perfect domestic if he ever got to that level. And as you said, seems like they could use one, and he gets his olympic dream slot..
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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3 mins back likely gets 22nd-28th I’d guess. But a wurf led chase group would help McElroy and Birth, Mola too if he doesn’t make front big time in Tokyo. He’s only going to be able to ride as fast as Birth can hang on, so pretty much any chase athlete would hope like hell he qualifies and is picked. Gives them more firepower.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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who is so naive to think that he will try to qualify for Tokyo? It is just a shot to gain some speed in his training. Nevertheless, I am impressed hes raced so much, and seems like he has not beennjured (except for the bike crash) in the entire season.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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who is so naive to think that he will try to qualify for Tokyo?//

Well that is what he said he intends to do. He likes to talk a lot of trash when it comes to competitors, but he has always been serious about his race goals. You could have said the same thing when he said he was going to do 8 ironmans in a year, or race one 3 weeks before Kona, but he did all that and more. I have no doubt that this is his plan, the first swim will be the telling point on whether it will be a possibility or not..No one is naive here, but someone might be misinformed as to his goals?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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Australia isn’t strong enough not to go with this strategy if they wanted too.

With your theory I’d go more with “racevacation” than I would some swim break through. He doesnt need itu to go come out last 10 of the water to know he’s not fast. Especially in a 3 week time frame minus his A world champ event.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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Well he did just beat Brownlee... pink

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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But the more pressing issue is he’d only be chosen as 3rd guy. No way he would make an MTR and currently Aussie is In for 3 males but right on cut line. Basically opposite of US right now, Aussie is barely in w 3, US barely out w 3.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Did macca do the olympic trials before or after his last win?

Is it still possible for Sebastian and Boris to sign up?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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To be perfectly honest he's going to struggle a bit unless he can hang on in the swim. Over a 750m swim it would maybe be a bit easier, but I think 1500m will isolate him. And the majority of the bike lap is a drag strip out and back along the coast. The field isn't top notch but even factoring that in it'll be tough for him.

In terms of making the Olympic team there is literally no chance to even get in the top 140. Better fields would await him next spring and the type of improvements he'd need are probably stretching it a bit. Good luck to him though.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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To be perfectly honest he's going to struggle a bit unless he can hang on in the swim//

I think everyone can agree with this, and that is the question I suppose he hopes to answer, for us and him. Like I said, I bet his pool swimming is a notch better than his Kona times would suggest, so he probably knows something we don't. I see most of those ITU swims now as one long, thin line. Guys at the front are the break, back 15 to 20 and you are now 2nd pack, last 1/3 are 3rd pack. All this without a break in the line too, but front to back is about a minute+, so that is all it takes to sever them into 3 groups. He needs to be close enough to be able to bridge to that 2nd group pretty quickly, that is where his cycling will be beneficial. Then it is all about how the race plays out from there, sometimes they catch, sometimes not. With him as a helper and driver, it now becomes more likely they do, and perhaps a few that were unwilling or soft pedaling before, will join in more eagerly, knowing chances just went up dramatically that a catch is possible..

Gonna be fun either way, I will give him a couple shots at it before throwing any shade on his dream. He has already surpassed any guess I would have had for him in ironman, if I were to go back a few years when he first came over, so who knows?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Slightly off-topic, and posted to the forum in general, but on Cam's blog post he said he'd already qualified for Kona 2020. I thought only the podium qualified for the following year, but is it instead the top 5?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [mbwallis] [ In reply to ]
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He's already qualified from winning the Ironman he did 3 weeks before Kona.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
To be perfectly honest he's going to struggle a bit unless he can hang on in the swim//

I think everyone can agree with this, and that is the question I suppose he hopes to answer, for us and him. Like I said, I bet his pool swimming is a notch better than his Kona times would suggest, so he probably knows something we don't. I see most of those ITU swims now as one long, thin line. Guys at the front are the break, back 15 to 20 and you are now 2nd pack, last 1/3 are 3rd pack. All this without a break in the line too, but front to back is about a minute+, so that is all it takes to sever them into 3 groups. He needs to be close enough to be able to bridge to that 2nd group pretty quickly, that is where his cycling will be beneficial. Then it is all about how the race plays out from there, sometimes they catch, sometimes not. With him as a helper and driver, it now becomes more likely they do, and perhaps a few that were unwilling or soft pedaling before, will join in more eagerly, knowing chances just went up dramatically that a catch is possible..

Gonna be fun either way, I will give him a couple shots at it before throwing any shade on his dream. He has already surpassed any guess I would have had for him in ironman, if I were to go back a few years when he first came over, so who knows?

It'll be interesting either way. My advice to him would be speed, speed, speed. That first 400m will make or break him. And then he has to be fresh enough for that big effort in the first 5 mins of the bike. In Kona he has the luxury of saving a bit for the bike on the swim. That might be a bigger factor - How fucked is he after the swim?

World Cups can be slightly different from WTS in that fields can be a little more strung on the swim which may work to his advantage. I'd be surprised if he's within 90 secs of the lead after the swim. In a WTS that would be fatal, but not so much in a WC.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Cup] [ In reply to ]
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Cup wrote:
He's already qualified from winning the Ironman he did 3 weeks before Kona.
Ah yes, I forgot about that one. Thanks.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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The swim is just so difficult and especially for a non swimmer like him. And good pool splits or not don’t really get you ready for that intensity.

And for me it’s not the start...it’s what happens the next 12 mins of the swim that is key. No amount of drafting will help if you can’t get into tempo rhythm just less than that hard pace. And of course we are talking about an aerobic style effort for IM vs the itu intensity.

ETA: my advice would be to swim just below red line or else he’s f’d at the start. I’ve found chase pack swimmers can do better and be fresher sitting at 95% vs going 110% when in reality they can’t do that to begin with. They are actually able to swim faster overall cus they don’t drop off so hard from the “max” effort the front goes at.


Kinda crazy what he’s doing but also he’s putting himself out there so props for that.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 17, 19 11:09
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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What does the field look like in this kind of event format? Is it 20 elite 17-18 minute swimmers that can run 30-32 min for 10km just like yokohama? or will it be easier?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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the front group is likely to be smaller which is also going to be the chase group’s benefit. I see only a handful of true front pack athletes but varga is there so it’s likely to push the swim. Maybe he strings it out more.

But more importantly wurf is coming off 2 IM’s within 6 weeks of this event. I cant really see a lot of specificity and if he kept it within 1:45 gap I’d call that huge success in T1.

He’ll id call success leaving this event within the time cut off. I don’t think he’s going to have a lot of “pop” in the legs which is super critical at key parts and then not so critical. Of course his race is going to have to be on the whole time when your that far back.

Good for him for giving it a go, for whatever reason he’s choosing.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Cam may be in for a rude awakening or we all might be in for a big surprise. Either way with Royle not racing this one Aus are about to slip out of the 3rd spot points I think.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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will he be close to last out of the swim?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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will he be close to last out of the swim?

NO reason not to think he wouldn't be, I think ITU has winnowed down the non competitive swimmers over the years. If you can't get into a decent bike path, what's the point? I hope he is in the pool right now doing 100's/50's/25's. His endurance base is so big right now, a couple k's of all out sprints is all he should be doing, maybe even a couple doubles in there too. It's a full assault on getting as much speed as his body will allow swimming, everything else, well same thing really, just won't matter much if falls off the back and loses an appreciable amount of time.


But remember, you can be last out of the swim, and still on someones feet, maybe many someones. That is what he needs to do right now, just be in the race and not have it over in the first 1k..
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Re: Wurf to ITU [pwai] [ In reply to ]
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pwai wrote:
He mentioned it in the Kona post-race press conference. He said he wants to try to get a slot for the 2020 Olympics, and that he will need to work (a lot) on his swim for ITU races.

A great retro full vid of the 2008 Olympic tri - some amazing close up footage during the swim gives you an idea of the speed needed to be up front...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pWLgf_AIBE
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Mike.A] [ In reply to ]
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Mike.A wrote:
pwai wrote:
He mentioned it in the Kona post-race press conference. He said he wants to try to get a slot for the 2020 Olympics, and that he will need to work (a lot) on his swim for ITU races.


A great retro full vid of the 2008 Olympic tri - some amazing close up footage during the swim gives you an idea of the speed needed to be up front...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pWLgf_AIBE

Frodo showing Brownlee who was boss 11 years ago.. :-)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Mike.A] [ In reply to ]
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A great retro full vid of the 2008 Olympic tri - some amazing close up footage during the swim gives you an idea of the speed needed to be up front...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pWLgf_AIBE //

Thanks so much for putting up that great bit of history. I had forgotten so much about that race, and of course seeing it now with my eyes now, so much more is evident. First and foremost, take a look at Shane Reed from NZL leading the entire swim. He was doing the 2/3/2 breathing I think before we knew about it. Would have to go look back when Gary Hall wrote his famous article here, but Shane had to be one of the first, if not the first to rock that breathing pattern. No wonder no one could ever come around him, he was getting a 1/3 more air than everyone else! And funny that you still don't see much of that out there, folks still just doing what the coach said 20 years ago, even after Sun Yang set WR's with it in the pool too.

And all those guys look like kids! Allistar showing that he was the pacesetter in the run, until I dont know what happened to him. But I bet it was this day that he and his brother decided, no more one pack run starts. No doubt he went home and first thing was to start some bike racing. Its kind of funny now, but I guess that is how a lot of old ITU races went back in the day, all 3 bike packs would come together and it was a mass 10k running race. And it looked to me that Javier grabbed his side a couple times, maybe the same side stitch that plagued him at worlds 70.3 last year? And I bet everyone thought after Simon Whitfield was let back on the group of 3, that it was his race to lose. And it really looked that way, except for a little known athlete from Germany, Jan Frondeno.

What a great race to watch now, so many still racing in the twilight of their careers, many out to pasture. Loved seeing Rasmus Henning up there setting pace late in the run, he and Ali would pay dearly for that later..
Last edited by: monty: Oct 17, 19 18:20
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Re: Wurf to ITU [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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Being an central america race there's always local athletes that are very much "developing" athletes, so my guess is he'll be on of the last 8, but probaly 1 min + ahead of the last athlete. Granted it's a world cup and so they don't put in just anyone, but the local athletes in that region usually aren't up to that level.

If this was a normal world cup in say euro or aussie, yes he'd be last out of the water. Not many people want to race itu with likely the swim he'll have. It doesn't last long nor make sense too. But this could be a racevacation, or truly just a "let's see how it works" and Wurf actually gives this race some persona, so it'll be good for everyone.


I hope/think/assume .org/live will cover it like they have most other WC's......i hope!!!

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Agree! This is classic and fascinating to watch after having just watched Kona and see some of the same guys 11 years earlier racing all out for glory. Top 6 halfway through the run a who's who...Brownlee, Gomez, Rana, Docherty, Frodeno, Whitfield...running together near their limit. And love that their's no commentary, just great pictures and sound, feels like you're right there.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on what programme he follows ;-) haha
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Re: Wurf to ITU [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
42x16ss wrote:
Wurf will do some damage on the bike leg. Bike handling comes into the equation in ITU, and he's got a massive advantage. Willing to bet that he's down to race all the big crits in Melbourne this summer.


OMG, this is so funny. He won't even be in the first pack.

Because his swim is weak? Wurf is strong enough and skilled enough to make back most, if not all of that time. Especially if the bike is neutralised because the lead pack are eyeing each other off before the run. At the very least, it will make the weaker riders work and take some risks.
Last edited by: 42x16ss: Oct 17, 19 19:54
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Re: Wurf to ITU [42x16ss] [ In reply to ]
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42x16ss wrote:
jaretj wrote:
42x16ss wrote:
Wurf will do some damage on the bike leg. Bike handling comes into the equation in ITU, and he's got a massive advantage. Willing to bet that he's down to race all the big crits in Melbourne this summer.


OMG, this is so funny. He won't even be in the first pack.

Because his swim is weak? Wurf is strong enough and skilled enough to make back most, if not all of that time. Especially if the bike is neutralised because the lead pack are eyeing each other off before the run. At the very least, it will make the weaker riders work and take some risks.

Ever watched an ITU race lately?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Itu coverage is only available pay per view right?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
Itu coverage is only available pay per view right?

Not all of it is pay per view. And the yearly subscription to triathlonlive.tv is the cost of one single meal so not much of a barrier.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Will be super cheap for end of season, can purchase a month rather than season. Superleague will also be broadcasting on it so worth the cost for a weekend viewing.
Last edited by: chrisb12: Oct 18, 19 1:44
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Re: Wurf to ITU [42x16ss] [ In reply to ]
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He's at the top level at what he does, and that's Ironman, not draft legal ITU racing.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
He's at the top level at what he does, and that's Ironman, not draft legal ITU racing.


Totally agreed. Cam is good at sustaining long efforts. That's what he was good at in his pro cycling years and that's what he is good at now.


Those that say he can be with ITU guys have not watched an ITU race in their lives... or maybe they know nothing about pro short course triathlon. Swim is an all-out effort where a MOP swimmer (or BOP on a bad day) will lose 45" at a minimum. The bike does nothing to do with the fact he was a pro. He may have the handling skills... but it's a pure power-surge ride. It's not sustaining 320W for a long time... most of courses are technical urban streets with anaerobic power blasts. And in running I won't even discuss what a pace of 2:50min/km to 3:20min/km means for a long course guy.


There is a reason guys stay in ITU as long as they can. There is much more money in ITU than in LD racing, unless you are winning KONA. If the likes of Wurf or Sanders had any chance in ITU, they'd be there making twice what they make now.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting thing is he’s gotta be fried at some point. I mean I know he’s a aerobic machine and done a bunch of races this year. 2 IM’s within what 6 weeks of an World Cup level itu event.

Ha I’d have to told him to go sit on the beach and turn the training and mind off, f going right back into training and then doing all new swim focus on short max intensity work.

But he’s a different animal. I’m guessing he’s going to come out of this like Cam Dye did in 2013 at MTR worlds. USA put him in for some stupid ass reason and then he went and got destroyed. He lost a 20s lead while on the bike that’s how bad he biked and he was the anchor. You can see the look of contempt on GJ’s face in photos, it was sadly hillarious.

Even Dye post race was like “this is unbelievable” how hard they race...and he wasn’t even doing long course at the time only Olympic non-draft. But the specificity was so different, you just cant train up for it in this time frame.

But give him major props maybe it’s the ass kicking he wants to get better in water. It’s also actually a smart strategy by AUS to try he just has to actually be able to execute the role properly...you can’t play that role if your 45s behind Birt out of the water. And no one else on AUS is medal contender so why not try and help Birt. Matt McElroy likely wouldn’t mind either ha.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, he seems to have a fire lit under him for some reason, perhaps because he came to our sport so late in life, he wants to get in as much as possible before he ages out of being a top pro.

And everyone else that keeps knocking him needs to chill out a bit, no one is saying he is going to be front pack, or anywhere near in the swim. Now we do expect him to move up on the bike, either on his own, or with a very back group that forms. And it all depends on the race dynamic on whether he even gets near the front or not at T2, that is the exciting thing we will be watching. IF not, then of course no one will be banking on a big run from him, he will be trying not to have the slowest run split. But different story if all groups come together, and he then takes a flier, that is what I would like to see, but not expecting..
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
who is so naive to think that he will try to qualify for Tokyo?//

Well that is what he said he intends to do. He likes to talk a lot of trash when it comes to competitors, but he has always been serious about his race goals. You could have said the same thing when he said he was going to do 8 ironmans in a year, or race one 3 weeks before Kona, but he did all that and more. I have no doubt that this is his plan, the first swim will be the telling point on whether it will be a possibility or not..No one is naive here, but someone might be misinformed as to his goals?


Believe me, he has no speed...and any, I repeat, any ITU guy in the top 30 in a regional cup beats him. he must swim 1.15 to keep up with the last pack and run 3.25/km to even be a top 25 in an average European Cup. So, no way he is before Royle, Hausser, etc. for Tokyo. Just no way. If someone follows ITU racing will agree with me.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
Last edited by: juanillo: Oct 18, 19 7:36
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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I would look at this another way. I would look at what Wurf can do for AUS, not what he can do overall. Cus he could be an outstanding domestique for Birtwhistle, most especially as the rest of team AUS isn't really medal contenders. Now of course he can only be a domestique if he has the swim to actually be out of water in chase pack. If he can't then this will be a very quick ITU experiment. Or maybe it's just a Wurf decision to do something different and kick start his swim development.



He's not going to race his way onto the team, he would only be chosen if ever for the possibility of helping win a medal....And imo Birt has the goods to win a medal, so why not build around him, if no one else is that good. Of course if you feel that you field a team that is made up of athletes that "earn" their spot, that's fine too. But if your looking at the best chance of winning a medal, there is validity in domestique roles.








Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 18, 19 7:50
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I like to watch Birtwhistle kick it at the end, it's awesome!
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I would look at this another way. I would look at what Wurf can do for AUS, not what he can do overall. Cus he could be an outstanding domestique for Birtwhistle, most especially as the rest of team AUS isn't really medal contenders. Now of course he can only be a domestique if he has the swim to actually be out of water in chase pack. If he can't then this will be a very quick ITU experiment. Or maybe it's just a Wurf decision to do something different and kick start his swim development.



He's not going to race his way onto the team, he would only be chosen if ever for the possibility of helping win a medal....And imo Birt has the goods to win a medal, so why not build around him, if no one else is that good. Of course if you feel that you field a team that is made up of athletes that "earn" their spot, that's fine too. But if your looking at the best chance of winning a medal, there is validity in domestique roles.







Of, I forgot about Jake..... but let me tell you... Cameron cant hold the ITU pace, even less the WTS ITU pace, even less the Tokyo pace that will be brutal (Schoeman, Varga, Luis, JBrownlee ...) In fact if Jake does not swim well,... maybe he will not podium because all these guys will push the bike to avoid Mola, Murray, and uberrunners to catch. So, Wurf? just pointless, ...in a 1.5 swim, he loses more than 2m with the top swimmers, that´s an ocean. Moreover, guys that have been in ITU for Aus really deserve to get to the Olympics: Royle, Hauser, William, Fisher, Bailie... More proof? you had Macca, former ITU world champion and went back to ITU...not success...

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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But did he go back and win kona after that?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
I would look at this another way. I would look at what Wurf can do for AUS, not what he can do overall. Cus he could be an outstanding domestique for Birtwhistle, most especially as the rest of team AUS isn't really medal contenders. Now of course he can only be a domestique if he has the swim to actually be out of water in chase pack. If he can't then this will be a very quick ITU experiment. Or maybe it's just a Wurf decision to do something different and kick start his swim development.



He's not going to race his way onto the team, he would only be chosen if ever for the possibility of helping win a medal....And imo Birt has the goods to win a medal, so why not build around him, if no one else is that good. Of course if you feel that you field a team that is made up of athletes that "earn" their spot, that's fine too. But if your looking at the best chance of winning a medal, there is validity in domestique roles.







Of, I forgot about Jake..... but let me tell you... Cameron cant hold the ITU pace, even less the WTS ITU pace, even less the Tokyo pace that will be brutal (Schoeman, Varga, Luis, JBrownlee ...) In fact if Jake does not swim well,... maybe he will not podium because all these guys will push the bike to avoid Mola, Murray, and uberrunners to catch. So, Wurf? just pointless, ...in a 1.5 swim, he loses more than 2m with the top swimmers, that´s an ocean. Moreover, guys that have been in ITU for Aus really deserve to get to the Olympics: Royle, Hauser, William, Fisher, Bailie... More proof? you had Macca, former ITU world champion and went back to ITU...not success...

Couldn't agree more. Given Wurf will not make the top 140 this Olympic chat is a non starter. The difference between Wurf and someone like Tom Davison, is that Tom could be in a position to use his bike strength and cycle through the packs at WTS level. Wurf is gonna be too far back after the swim to do that. We'll see if at lower WC level he can get away with it but I doubt it on this course.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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juanillo wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
I would look at this another way. I would look at what Wurf can do for AUS, not what he can do overall. Cus he could be an outstanding domestique for Birtwhistle, most especially as the rest of team AUS isn't really medal contenders. Now of course he can only be a domestique if he has the swim to actually be out of water in chase pack. If he can't then this will be a very quick ITU experiment. Or maybe it's just a Wurf decision to do something different and kick start his swim development.



He's not going to race his way onto the team, he would only be chosen if ever for the possibility of helping win a medal....And imo Birt has the goods to win a medal, so why not build around him, if no one else is that good. Of course if you feel that you field a team that is made up of athletes that "earn" their spot, that's fine too. But if your looking at the best chance of winning a medal, there is validity in domestique roles.








Of, I forgot about Jake..... but let me tell you... Cameron cant hold the ITU pace, even less the WTS ITU pace, even less the Tokyo pace that will be brutal (Schoeman, Varga, Luis, JBrownlee ...) In fact if Jake does not swim well,... maybe he will not podium because all these guys will push the bike to avoid Mola, Murray, and uberrunners to catch. So, Wurf? just pointless, ...in a 1.5 swim, he loses more than 2m with the top swimmers, that´s an ocean. Moreover, guys that have been in ITU for Aus really deserve to get to the Olympics: Royle, Hauser, William, Fisher, Bailie... More proof? you had Macca, former ITU world champion and went back to ITU...not success...

Actually that's the whole point of having Wurf because Jake aint going to swim in the front pack. Now if you read what I've said, wurf likely wont be there either, in fact he'll be closer to the tail end overall. But your making points that don't matter in this actual discussion. His swim time isn't to the front group, it's to the chase group...that's it. If he can make that chase group (and he likely can't/won't) then he's a huge value.

Your trying to use Macca as proof it did't work, when I'm not arguing Wurf to ITU will work. I'm just explaining to you how it can and the avenue and the why.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Adman wrote:
juanillo wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
I would look at this another way. I would look at what Wurf can do for AUS, not what he can do overall. Cus he could be an outstanding domestique for Birtwhistle, most especially as the rest of team AUS isn't really medal contenders. Now of course he can only be a domestique if he has the swim to actually be out of water in chase pack. If he can't then this will be a very quick ITU experiment. Or maybe it's just a Wurf decision to do something different and kick start his swim development.



He's not going to race his way onto the team, he would only be chosen if ever for the possibility of helping win a medal....And imo Birt has the goods to win a medal, so why not build around him, if no one else is that good. Of course if you feel that you field a team that is made up of athletes that "earn" their spot, that's fine too. But if your looking at the best chance of winning a medal, there is validity in domestique roles.








Of, I forgot about Jake..... but let me tell you... Cameron cant hold the ITU pace, even less the WTS ITU pace, even less the Tokyo pace that will be brutal (Schoeman, Varga, Luis, JBrownlee ...) In fact if Jake does not swim well,... maybe he will not podium because all these guys will push the bike to avoid Mola, Murray, and uberrunners to catch. So, Wurf? just pointless, ...in a 1.5 swim, he loses more than 2m with the top swimmers, that´s an ocean. Moreover, guys that have been in ITU for Aus really deserve to get to the Olympics: Royle, Hauser, William, Fisher, Bailie... More proof? you had Macca, former ITU world champion and went back to ITU...not success...


Couldn't agree more. Given Wurf will not make the top 140 this Olympic chat is a non starter. The difference between Wurf and someone like Tom Davison, is that Tom could be in a position to use his bike strength and cycle through the packs at WTS level. Wurf is gonna be too far back after the swim to do that. We'll see if at lower WC level he can get away with it but I doubt it on this course.

He's arguing something I'm not arguing with him though. In fact I'm in agreement with him, but what I'm showcasing is how a Cam Wurf can be used if he actually had the swim. Now he wont, but we can atleast see it live to say it won't work and be happy they gave it the ole "college try" and as I've said I think this is more a "racevacation" and shot in the dark.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
But did he go back and win kona after that?

No it was only after his 2nd IM win that he went to ITU in late 2010-2011 time period. It was pretty evident he was going to not make it as every swim he did he was one of the last bikes out....that's a bad feeling....when your bike is the only one left....your f'd in ITU.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Still cool that he went for it,

How large is the field for cams division, is it bigger than the championships?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Adman wrote:
juanillo wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
I would look at this another way. I would look at what Wurf can do for AUS, not what he can do overall. Cus he could be an outstanding domestique for Birtwhistle, most especially as the rest of team AUS isn't really medal contenders. Now of course he can only be a domestique if he has the swim to actually be out of water in chase pack. If he can't then this will be a very quick ITU experiment. Or maybe it's just a Wurf decision to do something different and kick start his swim development.



He's not going to race his way onto the team, he would only be chosen if ever for the possibility of helping win a medal....And imo Birt has the goods to win a medal, so why not build around him, if no one else is that good. Of course if you feel that you field a team that is made up of athletes that "earn" their spot, that's fine too. But if your looking at the best chance of winning a medal, there is validity in domestique roles.








Of, I forgot about Jake..... but let me tell you... Cameron cant hold the ITU pace, even less the WTS ITU pace, even less the Tokyo pace that will be brutal (Schoeman, Varga, Luis, JBrownlee ...) In fact if Jake does not swim well,... maybe he will not podium because all these guys will push the bike to avoid Mola, Murray, and uberrunners to catch. So, Wurf? just pointless, ...in a 1.5 swim, he loses more than 2m with the top swimmers, that´s an ocean. Moreover, guys that have been in ITU for Aus really deserve to get to the Olympics: Royle, Hauser, William, Fisher, Bailie... More proof? you had Macca, former ITU world champion and went back to ITU...not success...


Couldn't agree more. Given Wurf will not make the top 140 this Olympic chat is a non starter. The difference between Wurf and someone like Tom Davison, is that Tom could be in a position to use his bike strength and cycle through the packs at WTS level. Wurf is gonna be too far back after the swim to do that. We'll see if at lower WC level he can get away with it but I doubt it on this course.

He's arguing something I'm not arguing with him though. In fact I'm in agreement with him, but what I'm showcasing is how a Cam Wurf can be used if he actually had the swim. Now he wont, but we can atleast see it live to say it won't work and be happy they gave it the ole "college try" and as I've said I think this is more a "racevacation" and shot in the dark.

Fair enough.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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I believe it'll be 65ish give or take some may DNS, etc.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Just watching tongyeong world cup women, Spirig was over 40 seconds down in a sprint swim but caught up on bike on first lap.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Adman wrote:
juanillo wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
I would look at this another way. I would look at what Wurf can do for AUS, not what he can do overall. Cus he could be an outstanding domestique for Birtwhistle, most especially as the rest of team AUS isn't really medal contenders. Now of course he can only be a domestique if he has the swim to actually be out of water in chase pack. If he can't then this will be a very quick ITU experiment. Or maybe it's just a Wurf decision to do something different and kick start his swim development.



He's not going to race his way onto the team, he would only be chosen if ever for the possibility of helping win a medal....And imo Birt has the goods to win a medal, so why not build around him, if no one else is that good. Of course if you feel that you field a team that is made up of athletes that "earn" their spot, that's fine too. But if your looking at the best chance of winning a medal, there is validity in domestique roles.








Of, I forgot about Jake..... but let me tell you... Cameron cant hold the ITU pace, even less the WTS ITU pace, even less the Tokyo pace that will be brutal (Schoeman, Varga, Luis, JBrownlee ...) In fact if Jake does not swim well,... maybe he will not podium because all these guys will push the bike to avoid Mola, Murray, and uberrunners to catch. So, Wurf? just pointless, ...in a 1.5 swim, he loses more than 2m with the top swimmers, that´s an ocean. Moreover, guys that have been in ITU for Aus really deserve to get to the Olympics: Royle, Hauser, William, Fisher, Bailie... More proof? you had Macca, former ITU world champion and went back to ITU...not success...


Couldn't agree more. Given Wurf will not make the top 140 this Olympic chat is a non starter. The difference between Wurf and someone like Tom Davison, is that Tom could be in a position to use his bike strength and cycle through the packs at WTS level. Wurf is gonna be too far back after the swim to do that. We'll see if at lower WC level he can get away with it but I doubt it on this course.


He's arguing something I'm not arguing with him though. In fact I'm in agreement with him, but what I'm showcasing is how a Cam Wurf can be used if he actually had the swim. Now he wont, but we can atleast see it live to say it won't work and be happy they gave it the ole "college try" and as I've said I think this is more a "racevacation" and shot in the dark.


I am not arguing...again, a 2m gap with the top swimmers, is more than 1 minute with the Birtwistles,Molas pack, so, ... I wonder wether you often watch ITU as I dont usually watch IM. So, 1m down , you are out.There are not miraculous solo bike comebacks in top ITU in the men's field (i point this out as someone mentioned Spirig. She can do that in a world cup but not in the world series...

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
Last edited by: juanillo: Oct 18, 19 22:45
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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. I wonder wether you often watch ITU as I dont usually watch IM.

——-

What’s itu?

If you read what I wrote I pegged 1:45 back in DR as my projection, and that’s going to be s Varga led swim. He just swam a smoking fast 7:40 swim in Korea at the sprint distance (wetsuit aided)

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 19, 19 1:03
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
. I wonder wether you often watch ITU as I dont usually watch IM.

——-

What’s itu?

If you read what I wrote I pegged 1:45 back in DR as my projection, and that’s going to be s Varga led swim. He just swam a smoking fast 7:40 swim in Korea at the sprint distance (wetsuit aided)


This is my bet, 65 men at the start list.: https://triathlon.org/...lon_world_cup/339013
1. He makes a DNF or over Top 45
2. 1,5km swim...I guess no wetsuit... He loses more than 2m with Varga and I.Polyianski, top swimmers; 1m15 with the big bunch.

ITU, if you are not kidding, INTERNATIONAL TRIATHLON UNION

Cheers

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
Last edited by: juanillo: Oct 20, 19 4:20
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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Dont think he'll DNF.....as I've said I think if he's in a position to finish and be within the time limit to get some points, that will be mission accomplished. He's going to suffer not only on the swim but the run as well. Of course if this is some secret desire to showcase domestique ability, the run is irrelevant (but he would need to finish to score points). I think it's likely just a "let's see how this goes" type of 1 off race decision.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Dont think he'll DNF.....as I've said I think if he's in a position to finish and be within the time limit to get some points, that will be mission accomplished. He's going to suffer not only on the swim but the run as well. Of course if this is some secret desire to showcase domestique ability, the run is irrelevant (but he would need to finish to score points). I think it's likely just a "let's see how this goes" type of 1 off race decision.

I think it's a desire to show domestique ability. I don't believe he is so stupid/arrogant as to think he would earn a spot by being medal potential himself. From looking at the Aus selection policy they do mention discretionary selections will be made based on medal winning or potential to help win a medal. that word HELP is what he would be after. At this stage I think a couple more Aus guys should be looking at trying to show this also, may be what separates favourably those who aren't likely medalists from the 5 or so others in the same boat.Of course this is only relevant if Aus end up with a third male, otherwise relay capability will be the main criteria I would think.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Just came back from an interview with bob and cam. Cam doesn't care to race starky at IMFL. He said if starky wants to race it has to be Kona. He is full focused to ITU... Plans as bike domestique for relay. Bob will post on his channel siin
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Re: Wurf to ITU [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
Just came back from an interview with bob and cam. Cam doesn't care to race starky at IMFL. He said if starky wants to race it has to be Kona. He is full focused to ITU... Plans as bike domestique for relay. Bob will post on his channel siin

Does he realise the relay is still a swim bike run for each leg, no one does just one discipline. Domestique for individual but no such thing in a relay.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Relay would be worst event for him to try in itu.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
A great retro full vid of the 2008 Olympic tri - some amazing close up footage during the swim gives you an idea of the speed needed to be up front...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pWLgf_AIBE //

Thanks so much for putting up that great bit of history. I had forgotten so much about that race, and of course seeing it now with my eyes now, so much more is evident. First and foremost, take a look at Shane Reed from NZL leading the entire swim. He was doing the 2/3/2 breathing I think before we knew about it. Would have to go look back when Gary Hall wrote his famous article here, but Shane had to be one of the first, if not the first to rock that breathing pattern. No wonder no one could ever come around him, he was getting a 1/3 more air than everyone else! And funny that you still don't see much of that out there, folks still just doing what the coach said 20 years ago, even after Sun Yang set WR's with it in the pool too.

And all those guys look like kids! Allistar showing that he was the pacesetter in the run, until I dont know what happened to him. But I bet it was this day that he and his brother decided, no more one pack run starts. No doubt he went home and first thing was to start some bike racing. Its kind of funny now, but I guess that is how a lot of old ITU races went back in the day, all 3 bike packs would come together and it was a mass 10k running race. And it looked to me that Javier grabbed his side a couple times, maybe the same side stitch that plagued him at worlds 70.3 last year? And I bet everyone thought after Simon Whitfield was let back on the group of 3, that it was his race to lose. And it really looked that way, except for a little known athlete from Germany, Jan Frondeno.

What a great race to watch now, so many still racing in the twilight of their careers, many out to pasture. Loved seeing Rasmus Henning up there setting pace late in the run, he and Ali would pay dearly for that later..


sick finish - great video

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Wurf to ITU [plant_based] [ In reply to ]
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plant_based wrote:
monty wrote:
A great retro full vid of the 2008 Olympic tri - some amazing close up footage during the swim gives you an idea of the speed needed to be up front...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pWLgf_AIBE //

Thanks so much for putting up that great bit of history. I had forgotten so much about that race, and of course seeing it now with my eyes now, so much more is evident. First and foremost, take a look at Shane Reed from NZL leading the entire swim. He was doing the 2/3/2 breathing I think before we knew about it. Would have to go look back when Gary Hall wrote his famous article here, but Shane had to be one of the first, if not the first to rock that breathing pattern. No wonder no one could ever come around him, he was getting a 1/3 more air than everyone else! And funny that you still don't see much of that out there, folks still just doing what the coach said 20 years ago, even after Sun Yang set WR's with it in the pool too.

And all those guys look like kids! Allistar showing that he was the pacesetter in the run, until I dont know what happened to him. But I bet it was this day that he and his brother decided, no more one pack run starts. No doubt he went home and first thing was to start some bike racing. Its kind of funny now, but I guess that is how a lot of old ITU races went back in the day, all 3 bike packs would come together and it was a mass 10k running race. And it looked to me that Javier grabbed his side a couple times, maybe the same side stitch that plagued him at worlds 70.3 last year? And I bet everyone thought after Simon Whitfield was let back on the group of 3, that it was his race to lose. And it really looked that way, except for a little known athlete from Germany, Jan Frondeno.

What a great race to watch now, so many still racing in the twilight of their careers, many out to pasture. Loved seeing Rasmus Henning up there setting pace late in the run, he and Ali would pay dearly for that later..


sick finish - great video

Javier was carrying an annoying ankle injury and raced under some shots (was not full recovered till mid 2009). Maybe stitches too, but he was so superior by then that he lost his best chance for gold...

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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chrisb12 wrote:
synthetic wrote:
Just came back from an interview with bob and cam. Cam doesn't care to race starky at IMFL. He said if starky wants to race it has to be Kona. He is full focused to ITU... Plans as bike domestique for relay. Bob will post on his channel siin

Does he realise the relay is still a swim bike run for each leg, no one does just one discipline. Domestique for individual but no such thing in a relay.

He sees the bike leg as longest in the relay, giving him the benefit.

Also during the interview.. he talked about IM Italy and CAF athlete he helped during the run.. was amazing
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Re: Wurf to ITU [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be curious who he's bouncing these ideas off of, cus as good of a bike he could have, he's giving it all back and likely more with poor swim/runs. Ben Kanute gave 30s to the stud runners at Tokyo...30 f'ing seconds. That's an big disadvantage.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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If anything, he is looking at this to up his swim game to go back to long course
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Re: Wurf to ITU [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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That makes sense probaly just a different avenue to get faster in the water in the "off season" (yes I know his summer is going to be now being an Aussie). It's essentially too late for him to get the required ranking before end of May to actually even be on the initial eligibility. He's certainly not going to score points from WTS events, so he's only got a few WC's to actually get the ranking.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I'd be curious who he's bouncing these ideas off of, cus as good of a bike he could have, he's giving it all back and likely more with poor swim/runs. Ben Kanute gave 30s to the stud runners at Tokyo...30 f'ing seconds. That's an big disadvantage.

I think he talks "Good talk"
And has managed to convince someone at Tri Aus that it is a good idea and he is capable. Of course we all know these races are a lot faster/harder than they look, he may be in for a rude shock. As an Aussie I would like to think his idea would work but I am very sceptical, I will make sure I watch this one though.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Turns out he isnt doing short course as a favor to macca for the trash talk coaching, and that the olympic talk isnt with a wink :



olympic mixed team relay
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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Clif notes version:

-with the new bike power from everyone in Kona, the swim is even more critical now.
- wants to use ITU to get faster in water.
- doesn't want favors to make or not make the team.
- thinks he can be a potential domestique for Birt
- sees the MTR bike leg as a strength


My take is that this is just a good way to get faster in the water. Some athletes like that racing setting as a carrot, where others can grind away in the pool for 4 months before the next race, etc. I'd question his understanding of the MTR bike leg and his perceived strength because imo he's going to be too far back of the swim to actually use that bike strength and then his run is going to only basically lose any advantage he had. I'd secondly question why wait this late in the game cus he won't even make points to be eligible imo. So I think it goes back to using this as more of a carrot to improve his swim block of training over some real olympic dream. I mean I'm sure he thinks he can do it, but honestly it's a bit laughable that he's looking at the MTR bike leg as some massive strength to think he can make ITU olympics. Hell if he gets a ranking out of this, I'd say that's a successful venture into ITU.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Hell if he gets a ranking out of this, I'd say that's a successful venture into ITU. //

But isnt everyone just focusing on the races, and ignoring the real question? Who does he have to beat out? And that is the only thing that matters, if he ends up being 2nd fastest Aussie male, isnt it? Now I dont really know who that is at the moment, but that is the guy that has to be worried at the moment. He can swim ok, bike great, then run ok, but it only matters if he beats the 2nd place guy, that's the metric in my mind, as long as he clears the bar to actually be on the team first. Now that is for the relay.


The domestic job is of course a much different bar, and of course he has a lot longer bike to make an impact. But it of course will come down to how close can eh get his swim in short notice? Only the race will answer that question, so I will be watching along with the rest of you...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Who does he have to beat out?

------

Lots and lots and lots of people. He wont even come close to an ranking that gets him on the initial eligiblity list until likely April at the earliest. His timing is stupid if he wanted to actually make the Olympics. And so that's why I think this is just a disguised attempt at a swim block. There's no real olympic dream, this is just a pipe dream. There's no reality imo that gets him even close to the required points.

ETA: He's essentially already basically mathematically eliminated, regardless of how well he does at this 1 race or even the next 3-4 races. Granted it may get him more starts, but unless he wins out, he's basically already been eliminated mathematically.


World Ranking top 180

180th has 900 points. Max of 500pts for 1st at DR in 2 weeks. Thus he'd have to win + win the next world cup to even become eligible, regardless of how fast he was within the Aussies. And as I said if he finishes in middle of the pack to score 44 pts that would be a huge achievement for him, let alone talk about 500 pts lol.

That's why I've asked, who's he talking to that has put this into his ear cus they have no understanding of the rankings or selection process imo.

You dont go for the Olympics 2/3rd of the way through the olympic process. It's not just a "win and your in" process. But this will get him some hype, it'll get the race some interest, so everyone wins. But to say your going for the olympics at this point in the game, just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 23, 19 11:31
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Is there really a mixed relay division he mentioned , and how does soneone qualify for that?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
Is there really a mixed relay division he mentioned , and how does soneone qualify for that?


Yes you qualify by taking an individual race spot (there's no specific rule that says you have to race it; you just simply take the individual slot and thus almost assured to race....but some athlete out there may DNS/DNF the individual race to rest up for the MTR). It's done this way to limit the number of athletes that are in the Games....essentially you must be part of the individual race to be part of MTR. You must be ranked in the following to be eligible for the individual race:

-top 180 of the itu world ranking (formerly itu points list)

OR

-top 140 of the olympic qualification ranking



Then you must qualify through your own federation's guidelines, of which some have tougher AQ (auto qualify) standards than others. Obviously Wurf would go on discretion (picked by the federation). However he simply doesn't have enough races left in the qualification calendar imo to make the eligiblity ranking. He would need to podium in at min 2-3 world cups to make it, and let's be real. If he finishes top 25-30 that would be a HUGE ACCOMPLISHMENT, next weekend; let alone a top 10. He imo has the wrong strengths to be competitive in ITU. As the saying goes "if you could have done it, you would have already done it".


But again, if this is the carrot that gets his juices flowing to actually up his swim game- mission accomplish. But the reality his olympic dream pathway is already all but over. Unless you think he can actually podium, he's basically already mathematically eliminated; irregardless of how good or bad he is on the Aussie team.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 23, 19 12:30
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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It's hype so he can get attention
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Re: Wurf to ITU [stevie g] [ In reply to ]
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Side note seeing him in person.. wasn't looking toothpick thin as IM Italy
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Re: Wurf to ITU [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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I can't actually believe folk think he's in the same zip code as the top 3 Aussie ITU guys. This is madness!
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
lacticturkey wrote:
Is there really a mixed relay division he mentioned , and how does soneone qualify for that?


Yes you qualify by taking an individual race spot (there's no specific rule that says you have to race it; you just simply take the individual slot and thus almost assured to race....but some athlete out there may DNS/DNF the individual race to rest up for the MTR). It's done this way to limit the number of athletes that are in the Games....essentially you must be part of the individual race to be part of MTR. You must be ranked in the following to be eligible for the individual race:

-top 180 of the itu world ranking (formerly itu points list)

OR

-top 140 of the olympic qualification ranking



Then you must qualify through your own federation's guidelines, of which some have tougher AQ (auto qualify) standards than others. Obviously Wurf would go on discretion (picked by the federation). However he simply doesn't have enough races left in the qualification calendar imo to make the eligiblity ranking. He would need to podium in at min 2-3 world cups to make it, and let's be real. If he finishes top 25-30 that would be a HUGE ACCOMPLISHMENT, next weekend; let alone a top 10. He imo has the wrong strengths to be competitive in ITU. As the saying goes "if you could have done it, you would have already done it".


But again, if this is the carrot that gets his juices flowing to actually up his swim game- mission accomplish. But the reality his olympic dream pathway is already all but over. Unless you think he can actually podium, he's basically already mathematically eliminated; irregardless of how good or bad he is on the Aussie team.

He doesn't need to podium in 2-3 world cups necessarily, but he's got very limited real estate in order to get his ranking into the range (he'll need points from 5-6 races at the WC/WTS level, before qualification closes, and those will need to largely be solid results (a few podiums for sure makes it easier, but a combination of top 10 results might be able to do it, if there are some top 10s from a couple of WTS races in there early next year). Throw aside the whole selection piece, and the flaws in his argument (yes, percentage wise, the Bike is the longest component of an MTR, or sprint, or Oly tri or even a 70.3 or IM, but he has to establish that he can actually ride at that level (an MTR bike leg is not like a pro Bike race (maybe a prologue TT in a stage race is the least far from it) and nothing like an ironman) in those distances, after swimming in that type of setting...), even being eligible for selection is the hard part at this point... He's at zero points, so his shot at a top 140 olympic ranking are basically screwed, since he can't score higher than zero for the first qualifying window, because that ended months ago, so that's 5 races worth of points that he's now behind everyone else trying to hit that ranking threshold, so all he can do is earn points for window 2, which is a max of 6 results (whereas many others will have points from 10 races counting towards ranking). His only shot is at getting into the top 180 on world ranking (because he's at less of a disadvantage there in terms of the number of races that count in the rankings), and even that, is an issue, being at zero points, and having 7months to get there (if he races every world cup and WTS race between now and then, there are are about 10 races to play with there, and maybe a good showing at the Oceania champs (conti cup level) because of the increased point values, gives him one more race that could help with moving him up...), the other Conti Cup level races won't have enough points to really help him in terms of cracking the top 180 (but he might need to race some of those anyways just to get enough points to make the start lists...)...

He's a notorious smack talker, and when he does something, he typically goes all in, so I think he figures, worst case he improves his swim, and if he can actually pull off even being eligible for discretionary olympic selection, that's a bonus... Either way, we're talking about it, which is good for him, and it might bring some long course fans to pay some casual attention to a late season world cup races, that they would otherwise ignore... so in that way, it helps the sport...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Yes super hype for him, super hype for a world cup in freaking Dominican Republic in November a dead period for the sport, and hype for those athletes about the lack the "smack" on him (and there will be lots).

In a way this reminds me of Andy Kaufman, he's the perfect heel.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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Ha and before all the masses who come to ITU cus of Wurf and then complain of the itu coverage....no he aint going to make the coverage.....they never cover the last 15 out of the water, as the rest of the race is a mile up the road. You probaly won't even get a split to him during the coverage and will have to use the "live data" from the triathlon.org/live site. He'll get some video coverage when/if he makes a chase group, maybe just maybe you see him in the background at some point, but you likely wont know his splits from the broadcast. Maybe they give him a shout out but the commentators only know the splits from the live data, they won't know the splits any better than the audience watching. They simply watch the coverage and comment and wave as the racers pass them by on some point on the race.

So dont hate on ITU for the lack of coverage on Wurf if/when it happens. The $25 per year costs for all WTS and world cups is the best value in the sport.




#knowledgeispower

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
He's essentially already basically mathematically eliminated

Mathematically he only needs 1 result. A high place in a WTS race would put him over the threshold. I don’t think that is going to happen, but your “mathematically” argument is not correct. In any case who doesn’t love it when someone switches disciplines or even sports? Maybe MvdP will go for the MTR with the dutchies...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Dumples] [ In reply to ]
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Dumples wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
He's essentially already basically mathematically eliminated


Mathematically he only needs 1 result. A high place in a WTS race would put him over the threshold. I don’t think that is going to happen, but your “mathematically” argument is not correct. In any case who doesn’t love it when someone switches disciplines or even sports? Maybe MvdP will go for the MTR with the dutchies...


A WTS *standard* distance only race by finishing 1st or 2nd. Abu Dhabi would not qualify the points to clear the 180th ranking. That leaves Bermuda or Yoko as the only events in ITU that he can place high enough to AQ on points and then be eligible for the olympics.

So I'll stand by my statement that he's essentially already mathematically eliminated.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 23, 19 15:40
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Dumples] [ In reply to ]
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 In any case who doesn’t love it when someone switches disciplines or even sports? Maybe MvdP will go for the MTR with the dutchies..
------

When MTR first became a thing I was hoping it would simply be 1 swimmer, 1 biker, 1 runner as a "relay". I'd prefer that more than what the actual format is currently. I am probaly in the waaaaaay minority, but I find the MTR outside of about 6 teams not as exciting as a MTR could have been let me just say that. But I get it, it's basically all star format, and it's all the rage. And I'll cheer it on and watch it, etc etc., but I'd just have preferred an true "relay" of the best of each discipline. That would be one hell of an event.

ETA: And yes I know they couldn't do that for gender equality since one gender would be less represented etc. It goes back to the old days of what the Silverman tri out in Las Vegas where they were creating world class relay teams to set a world record 10 or so years ago.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 23, 19 15:57
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Yes super hype for him, super hype for a world cup in freaking Dominican Republic in November a dead period for the sport, and hype for those athletes about the lack the "smack" on him (and there will be lots).

In a way this reminds me of Andy Kaufman, he's the perfect heel.

That is perfect - Cam Wurf, the Andy Kaufman of triathlon!

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Wurf to ITU [stevie g] [ In reply to ]
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stevie g wrote:
It's hype so he can get attention

Nice of the resident sook to chime in.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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 I just don't like Wurf or his attitude, you do, good for you
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Re: Wurf to ITU [stevie g] [ In reply to ]
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stevie g wrote:
I just don't like Wurf or his attitude, you do, good for you

Then enjoy this photo of him raising money for disabled kids.


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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely no chance. There are much better and more deserving Aussie short course athletes than Cam.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you care so much
Last edited by: stevie g: Oct 24, 19 12:43
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Adman] [ In reply to ]
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I love that on the 4th page of the thread someone asks what the mixed relay is, yet has complete confidence that he has a shot at making the team. Anyone that follows ITU knows he has zero chance of making the team. Domestiques that come out of the water behind their captain are pretty worthless.

Do all the people saying that he has a shot even watch ITU or SLT?

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Wurf to ITU [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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Good guys never do anything wrong. Like that guy who raised all that money for cancer.

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Wurf to ITU [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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Domestiques that come out of the water behind their captain are pretty worthless. //

Well unless they can catch up early enough in the bike, but other than that, you are 100% correct...Guess he should just probably just scratch this race, unless??? (-;
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Re: Wurf to ITU [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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[quote mungub50
Do all the people saying that he has a shot even watch ITU or SLT?[/quote]
But......but.....but Ironman is everything and they are the fittest people on earth.The people on the Ironman coverage told me so. :-)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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I think it is really cool that Cam wants to experience Triathlon in different forms, this is more like the earlier days when Mike Pig and Welchy would race world cups, long course and ironman. I know things are a lot more specialised now but there is still scope for guys to enjoy racing many distances. Its great seeing guys like Gomez and Brownlee in many distances and guys are not in Super League, Oly Distance and 70.3 and they are making money where they can and enjoying their time in the sport.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Domestiques that come out of the water behind their captain are pretty worthless. //

Well unless they can catch up early enough in the bike, but other than that, you are 100% correct...Guess he should just probably just scratch this race, unless??? (-;

This is the thing, how far back will he be, and on the narrow, technical course that the test event was on will that suit his riding skills and can he even get around packs in time to be of help?. It looked a shitty narrow course in many places in my opinion, with not many areas to get around even small groups.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Gilliga] [ In reply to ]
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Gilliga wrote:

I think it is really cool that Cam wants to experience Triathlon in different forms, this is more like the earlier days when Mike Pig and Welchy would race world cups, long course and ironman. I know things are a lot more specialised now but there is still scope for guys to enjoy racing many distances. Its great seeing guys like Gomez and Brownlee in many distances and guys are not in Super League, Oly Distance and 70.3 and they are making money where they can and enjoying their time in the sport.

I agree and I think it is to the detriment of the sport that so many M-Dot junkies only ever do M-Dot events as for so many they just don't seem to know the difference between Ironman racing talent and ITU racing talent.The Pro's do and plan their calendar accordingly but there is a huge difference between what the Pro's do and what the average age grouper does.I wish more M-Dot junkies would try their hand at sprints and oly's and I wish more coaches would schedule short races in their athletes programs.Over here in SE Asia it seems a little like it used to be in Oz and Canada where people race everything they can 'cause it is fun and they don't take themselves quite as seriously as the tri-geeks in the west.

I have personally seen coaches in two towns schedule long rides for their substantial tri squads on the same day as the local triathlon club hosted races.Hell I saw a coach do a race simulation day on the same day as that towns biggest Olympic tri of the year.As I have said earlier in this thread,I would be very surprised if Cam has any chance of getting on the Aussie Olympic Team given his very short window of opportunity and the historical political nature of Australian Olympic selection.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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The political nature of Aus triathlon selection could definately play against him, hell even Birt missed out on Rio selection and he had Aus best results and even a wts podium under his belt by the time the Olympics rolled around. But who knows, maybe it will be in Cams favour, being renowned for being so political means we have no idea what they could be thinking.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So, finally, we have Cam Wurf this weekend in Santo Domingo. It will be nice to see one guy out of his zone of comfort.... just exciting to see it.
As I mentioned before, and not trying to show any lack of respect to Wurf....he will struggle. He will, from the first strokes in the swim; I predict 1m of loss with the main pack, not the front swimmers. Then, race over. Back pack, trying to avoid lapping out and not finishing top 40 if he gets into T2.
Anyhow, I admire this lad. Olympic rower, then proffesional cyclist and now, one of the top guys in IM. You gotta have that thing to excel in 3 sports.
Somebody was mentioning him to be in the Aussie MTR. For me, no sense at all. Bad swim, compared to the ITU guys, and not run speed. HIs bike is fit for IM or even 70.3, but ITU is crazy fast.....
Good luck to him anyhow

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
Last edited by: juanillo: Nov 6, 19 3:57
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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I think your predictions are "right on"

I hope he finishes.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Definately interesting!

Did amberger come through the itu stables?
Last edited by: lacticturkey: Nov 6, 19 6:04
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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Yes he did. Results

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
Last edited by: MI_Mumps: Nov 6, 19 6:20
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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My thoughts exactly, IM racing is great but ITU is what gives the sport the professional depth

I am looking forward to see how an IM guy fares against ITU, and kudos for racing them, don't see many of narcissistic IM pros giving short course a shot if only to get a good workout. Not the deepest field in terms of talent speed but enough horsepower (Varga, Haller, Perez, Polyainsky) in the water to give him a bit of hard time. Would like to see the ITU guys really sticking it to him on the swim, same way he would return the favor on an 180 km non-draft bike ride. In my view, he likely won't do as good as some of the IM cult fans think, but not as bad as being last or getting lapped on the bike.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Engner66 wrote:
My thoughts exactly, IM racing is great but ITU is what gives the sport the professional depth

I am looking forward to see how an IM guy fares against ITU, and kudos for racing them, don't see many of narcissistic IM pros giving short course a shot if only to get a good workout. Not the deepest field in terms of talent speed but enough horsepower (Varga, Haller, Perez, Polyainsky) in the water to give him a bit of hard time. Would like to see the ITU guys really sticking it to him on the swim, same way he would return the favor on an 180 km non-draft bike ride. In my view, he likely won't do as good as some of the IM cult fans think, but not as bad as being last or getting lapped on the bike.

Amberger finished 8th and Sarah Crowley finished 3rd in Noosa last weekend at non drafting Olympic distance three weeks after Kona...


https://www.multisportaustralia.com.au/...OOSATRI-19/events/1/
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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noosa non drafting
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Cam Wurf posted a swim video to Instagram today saying it was of him doing 50s. Out of curiousity I timed what was shown and came to about 33-34 seconds from a push off. There's obviously no background of the workout given in the 1 minute long video, ie. on how much rest, how many intervals, what was done before, etc.

Regardless, my opinion is that this confirms the general consensus of Wurf being way off the front and likely the next pack coming out of the water.

Dominic Pollizzi

Last edited by: zestypollizzi: Nov 6, 19 17:33
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Re: Wurf to ITU [zestypollizzi] [ In reply to ]
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Wurf normally puts out all of his data, I hope he has been swimming more than Strava shows.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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No, Wurf usually puts out all of his biking and running, not swimming.

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon
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Re: Wurf to ITU [zestypollizzi] [ In reply to ]
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Or the pack after that...

He did get mentioned in the ITU's race preview https://www.triathlon.org/...e_of_the_2020_season
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Re: Wurf to ITU [zestypollizzi] [ In reply to ]
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Out of curiousity I timed what was shown and came to about 33-34 seconds from a push off.//

Was that SCY, SCM, or LCM? Makes quite a bit of difference which one, as the first would be pretty slow, and the latter would be pretty fast, especially if it were something like a set o 20 or so on like a minute...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I just looked, its SC (M or Y, can't say) and the clip was just him getting about 2 seconds rest before going on the next one.

how many he's doing, no clue....

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Wurf to ITU [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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So he was doing some sort of SC 50s' on the 35, that is a really tough set, even if it is just 10 of them..So we really dont know anymore than we did before, if it were meters, then that is really fast, yards is just ok...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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oscaro wrote:
No, Wurf usually puts out all of his biking and running, not swimming.

Could have sworn that he manually uploads his swimming data, but maybe not
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Re: Wurf to ITU [zestypollizzi] [ In reply to ]
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The guy's crazy enough to give it a shot.....It's almost an underrated smart idea at getting some swim fitness, however the race to that 1st turn boy is just going to be unreal. The scrum that happens isn't even done justice by the video coverage.....But I hope he goes out and gets his name on the world ranking ledger atleast.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
I just looked, its SC (M or Y, can't say) and the clip was just him getting about 2 seconds rest before going on the next one.

how many he's doing, no clue....

If it was in Aust (or Europe), it's certainly not going to be yards.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
The guy's crazy enough to give it a shot.....It's almost an underrated smart idea at getting some swim fitness, however the race to that 1st turn boy is just going to be unreal. The scrum that happens isn't even done justice by the video coverage.....But I hope he goes out and gets his name on the world ranking ledger atleast.


It’s a nice idea, but I can’t shake the memories of Macca in 2011 when he returned to ITU. Last out of the swim and dropped out on the bike. Ok, it was WTS not World Cup, but in relative terms Macca was faster than Wurf.

I’d love to be eating my words, though, he’s a cool guy.
Last edited by: bluefever: Nov 7, 19 21:54
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Re: Wurf to ITU [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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"Last on swim and dropped on bike"?

really impressive to not be dropped in the swim though. Not really the Ironman-itee between the dolphins scenario prediction
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Re: Wurf to ITU [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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There’s a distinct difference in WTS and WC levels especially the swim. But the general idea will be the same. Last 10 out of water and of course those guys around him will likely be of little assistance on the bike. There will be some Caribbean athlete(s) coming out well behind the others. But yeah it’ll be similar result.

His swim video looked like he wasn’t going all out but there’s no context so not much to take alway.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
"Last on swim and dropped on bike"?

really impressive to not be dropped in the swim though. Not really the Ironman-itee between the dolphins scenario prediction

That's not what I wrote :) I wrote 'dropped out on the bike'

He was indeed dropped in the swim.

Not sure why you edited my post? :)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I really hope he does well, it would be cool.

I was wondering actually, we have plenty of ITU athletes who have gone to IM and done very well.

Have any IM athletes ever gone the other way? I cant think of one.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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Once you go “long” you pretty much lose all ability to tap into the anaerobic fast twitch type of muscles etc. that’s why the progression now is no one leaves itu until they get old and slow and can’t make $$ and/or federation support.


It’s why they are able to do 70’s within same training season pretty well, but would struggle at the actual IM distance simply because it’s so different with energy systems + fueling.

It’ll be fun to watch him, as I said getting his name on the ranking ledger would be all that can be expected.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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bluefever wrote:
Have any IM athletes ever gone the other way? I cant think of one.

Jill Savage started off in IMs and dropped down to ITU and won a couple of races, including out kicking Siri Lindley. No doubt her hubby can provide more details.

It'd be interesting to see Lucy Charles in an ITU or WTS race.

Advocating for research & treatment for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME).
http://www.meaction.net/about/what-is-me/

"Suck it up, Buttercup"
(me, to myself, every day)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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most people who "go long" never went short in the first place

The progression now is the way it is not because of some weird "going long" physiology, but because that's where the talent is. Put Ironman in the Olympics and it's the other way around.

B_Doughtie wrote:
Once you go “long” you pretty much lose all ability to tap into the anaerobic fast twitch type of muscles etc. that’s why the progression now is no one leaves itu until they get old and slow and can’t make $$ and/or federation support.


It’s why they are able to do 70’s within same training season pretty well, but would struggle at the actual IM distance simply because it’s so different with energy systems + fueling.

It’ll be fun to watch him, as I said getting his name on the ranking ledger would be all that can be expected.

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Re: Wurf to ITU [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
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bluefever wrote:
I really hope he does well, it would be cool.

I was wondering actually, we have plenty of ITU athletes who have gone to IM and done very well.

Have any IM athletes ever gone the other way? I cant think of one.


I know that this comes from "back in the day" when triathletes raced all distances but here is an example of literally what you are talking about.

Karen Smyers wins Ironman Hawaii 1995 and then five weeks later wins the ITU World Champs in Cancun..
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Nov 8, 19 12:42
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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I would disagree mainly because most athletes can’t handle the volume required to race the IM well at a young age. Who in the pro ranks is winning IM’s at the young age of say 26-27 and under? 70’s is completely different than an IM.

Hell are the Africans running marathons at a young age these days?

Which sport is the Olympics doesn’t really matter. You don’t Max out your endurance and then suddenly move to short course and get faster. You can do it but not at your best etc.


skills- speed- endurance has always been the pathway physiological that I’ve ever seen in methodology,

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 8, 19 13:12
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Hasn’t Iden said that Kona is on his 2020 plans after he does Olympics. He’ll be 24 next year, he hasn’t paid his “dues” at the distance or Kona. Nonetheless, if he makes it to the starting line, he will bring some excitement. He’ll definitely get more attention than he got going in to Nice.

Lots of talent, good training environment and good attitude. *IF* he does an Ironman (and it should be a BIG if), it would be our first time to see someone still at the top of their short course game and such a young age dabble in the long stuff. Hopefully any sort of dabbling would not hurt his short course speed.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [kbd] [ In reply to ]
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He KQ’s with his 70 world championship so all he has to do is validate finish an IM before Kona right? So my guess is if he had to qualify any other way he’d not be doing it.

I’d say he’s going to be suited well for LC and less suited for itu success except on exceptional courses.

But there’s a reason why almost all the non itu guys sit at 70 racing for years before finally moving up to IM. It’s really unheard of to turn to IM at 24/25 pretty much exclusively or with any regularity.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Sam Long (23) won IMChoo ‘19 but he’s a bit of an outlier
Egan Bernal (22) just won TdF, though
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Re: Wurf to ITU [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]
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So are you naming outliers to disprove or prove my point?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Egan Bernal did not win the TdF. There’s no way someone that young could handle the volume.

B_Doughtie wrote:
So are you naming outliers to disprove or prove my point?

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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
He KQ’s with his 70 world championship so all he has to do is validate finish an IM before Kona right? So my guess is if he had to qualify any other way he’d not be doing it.

I’d say he’s going to be suited well for LC and less suited for itu success except on exceptional courses.

But there’s a reason why almost all the non itu guys sit at 70 racing for years before finally moving up to IM. It’s really unheard of to turn to IM at 24/25 pretty much exclusively or with any regularity.
Lucy Charles
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I would disagree mainly because most athletes can’t handle the volume required to race the IM well at a young age. Who in the pro ranks is winning IM’s at the young age of say 26-27 and under? 70’s is completely different than an IM.

Hell are the Africans running marathons at a young age these days?

Which sport is the Olympics doesn’t really matter. You don’t Max out your endurance and then suddenly move to short course and get faster. You can do it but not at your best etc.


skills- speed- endurance has always been the pathway physiological that I’ve ever seen in methodology,

Yes, young africans are going straight to the marathon etc bypassing the track.

Isn't Kate Allen someone who did ironmans and also won Athens Olympics around the same time?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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fulla wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:

Isn't Kate Allen someone who did ironmans and also won Athens Olympics around the same time?

Kate Allen...one of the biggest mysteries in triathlon.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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Funny pic of Wurf at the itu pre-race meeting....let's hope it's not foreshadowing of what's to come.

Wurf's sitting all by himself, as I think he's the only athlete from the the oceania region.

(Posting pics on ST is a big ass pain in the ass, as it seems the image file is too large every time I try and post one)

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4oD4WSg3PF/


Last race being an olympic, there's sure to be some tired bodies out there, let's hope everyone stays safe out there.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have a lot to go on but if I just boiled it to some fundamentals of principals of training (in this case; specificity) I think he's gonna get schooled - AND the field isn't even that deep. Looks like there's a wee bit of shore break to split the pool swimmers from those with more open water experience in the first 50m https://twitter.com/.../1193252157882957825

Ian

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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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He does have an open seat next to him, but I expected much more isolation based on the description!

I see Andrea Hewitt. Not sure how the Aussies and Kiwis get on though. I also sense individual relationships often trump national or regional relationships in that scene.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Xiamen 70.3 was just won by Marten Vanriel in a 4+ min course record, his first race at this distance. The womens was easily won also by Ashleigh Gentle, who was also first out of water and this her first longer race too. I know these weren't top fields but it does show that ITU athletes are better than they get credit for. Tonight will be interesting, too bad it is terrible time for us southern hemisphere fans.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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chrisb12 wrote:
Xiamen 70.3 was just won by Marten Vanriel in a 4+ min course record, his first race at this distance. The womens was easily won also by Ashleigh Gentle, who was also first out of water and this her first longer race too. I know these weren't top fields but it does show that ITU athletes are better than they get credit for. Tonight will be interesting, too bad it is terrible time for us southern hemisphere fans.

just about everyone gives them credit for being great, it seems, except Americans

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Re: Wurf to ITU [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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iron_mike wrote:
chrisb12 wrote:
Xiamen 70.3 was just won by Marten Vanriel in a 4+ min course record, his first race at this distance. The womens was easily won also by Ashleigh Gentle, who was also first out of water and this her first longer race too. I know these weren't top fields but it does show that ITU athletes are better than they get credit for. Tonight will be interesting, too bad it is terrible time for us southern hemisphere fans.


just about everyone gives them credit for being great, it seems, except Americans

Well, there's not WTS race here...so nothing to pay attention to. But plenty of 70.3s and 140.6s.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
iron_mike wrote:
chrisb12 wrote:
Xiamen 70.3 was just won by Marten Vanriel in a 4+ min course record, his first race at this distance. The womens was easily won also by Ashleigh Gentle, who was also first out of water and this her first longer race too. I know these weren't top fields but it does show that ITU athletes are better than they get credit for. Tonight will be interesting, too bad it is terrible time for us southern hemisphere fans.


just about everyone gives them credit for being great, it seems, except Americans

Well, there's not WTS race here...so nothing to pay attention to. But plenty of 70.3s and 140.6s.

Plenty of Europeans pay attention to NBA and NFL. Just saying ...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Is the coverage always this bad for WC events? They don't even have live timing info coming up when the swimmers came out of the water. So no idea where Wurf is at all.


Edit: they just showed him on the bike all by himself, and his kit looked like the guy that got out of the water way behind literally everyone else (I was looking for an AUS kit but he wasn't in one). So went about as most expected.
Last edited by: Sean H: Nov 10, 19 3:28
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Nope this coverage is crap, it is a world cup not WTS so is only covered by local race organisers not the massive team that produce WTS coverage.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Hoffmeister] [ In reply to ]
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"Plenty"....

very few, indeed, to my experience.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
Is the coverage always this bad for WC events? They don't even have live timing info coming up when the swimmers came out of the water. So no idea where Wurf is at all.


Edit: they just showed him on the bike all by himself, and his kit looked like the guy that got out of the water way behind literally everyone else (I was looking for an AUS kit but he wasn't in one). So went about as most expected.

Wurf only got dropped because of his elite endurance talent.... Van Riel only won the 70.3 because the talented long course guys didn’t show up. Ashleigh Gentile, who can’t swim in WTS, was only first out of the water because the talented long course swimmers didn’t show up.

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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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If anything, I often feel as if the ITU guys have pushed the 70.3 guys to another level, perhaps after Gomez stepped up to 70.3 in 2014 and schooled Frodeno. ITU guys are the formula 1 athletes of our sport and most are great at three sports these days, so no surprise that whenever they decide to race 70.3 they do it better than most 70.3 pros. No disrespect to 70.3 guys in my post, I enjoy watching and following all distances.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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It makes you wonder why more 2nd tier ITU athletes don't make the switch over to long course in their prime. I guess the Olympics is that big of a draw (or it's the federation support)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Depending in the country they are from, some 2nd tier wts athletes would still make their countries Olympic team. Seriously that is most kids dream. Gentle and Vanriel are not 2nd tier athletes though.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone seen Wurf anywhere?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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I'm looking at external site stats (just woke up w/ flu so didn't see race or how the tactics played out):

They dont have an official swim time for Wurf but they have a T1 time of 20:17 (about ~35-40s for T1)....so a time of ~19:40


Varga went 17:00 for 1st

McElroy went 17:22 (22nd place swim)


Bike splits:

Wurf 53:06

McElroy 50:38

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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47th out of 59

36:15 10k

Will NOT get points due to outside 5% rule even though he finished top 50.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Olympics and money it seems. ITU races pay a bit more and you can do a few more races per year. GTN did a pretty decent and unbiased (for the most part) analysis of the economics and finances.

Saw Wurf finishing when they were interviewing McDowell..about 11 min behind the winner, compared to Van Riel's race...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
It makes you wonder why more 2nd tier ITU athletes don't make the switch over to long course in their prime. I guess the Olympics is that big of a draw (or it's the federation support)

Hmm, it’s a thinker. Same thing is happening in the Mary Cain thread, and also in the Lavender Room.

The answer is money.

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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have a link to the external site? I have found nothing
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Ah yes go ask Joe Maloy, Eric Lagerstrom and Jason Pedersen from the Tri Squad back in the day. Joe made the Olympics, Eric was 1st alternate and JP was 1st place after the 1st WTS event in the Rio qualification period. I think Joe Maloy made $12,000 that year in "earnlngs".


Lived 6 people in a 2 bedroom apartment, basically those 3 sleeping in same room with mattresses on floors.


There's not a lot of money in ITU especially outside of top 5/10 finisheres (top 10 for WTS, top 5 for WC's et).


They are doing it for the pure enjoyment of going "all in" and grinding their way to an chance at olympics one day.....there's no money in that, sorry Eric. In fact if you get to know most of those guys, they are able to grind away mainly because of supportive parents and building sponsors, etc. But they ain't doing this for the money....there's no money in 2nd tier ITU.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 10, 19 5:13
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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https://runsignup.com/...sult/fhpZ?#U40673136

2nd to last of the finishers.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I think if they are finishing around top 10 in the series they are probably making enough to get by. Everyone else needs good sponsors and families willing to support the Olympic dream.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Have to wonder if that is accurate. Has Wurf for a 17:40 swim (only :41 behind Varga), that's incredible. But then has him with a 2:37 T1 whereas everyone else was around :30.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [TriRugby] [ In reply to ]
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Ouch....just saw the splits..that was a lot worse than I expected, kudos for giving it a shot though. Don't expect to see many mid and long course guys racing ITU guys in the nearby future.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
Have to wonder if that is accurate. Has Wurf for a 17:40 swim (only :41 behind Varga), that's incredible. But then has him with a 2:37 T1 whereas everyone else was around :30.


Oh Yeah, that can't be right, I thought I saw him exiting swim way down the field, last, 2nd last or there abouts pretty much after others were well gone. I may been wrong though, it caught me off guard as I was looking for a green suit.
Last edited by: chrisb12: Nov 10, 19 5:34
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I posted previously Wurf had no swim time and only had a T1 swim time. Which calculates out to around 19:40 (2:40 behind 1st swimmer). Hope it was a great racvacation for him. Now back to his regularly scheduled IM life.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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A fair comparison is to see if a top 60 ranked ITU guy makes more or less money than a top 60 ranke IM pro and perhaps 12k per year is 12k per year more than a top 60 IM pro?. Assuming the ITU field has way more depth, perhaps a top 60 ITU guy could switch to being a top 20 IM pro and make more money? On the other hand, because IM has a bit more exposure to the masses, maybe it is easier to get sponsors in the IM circuit? Perhaps this is the reason why Frodeno said wining Kona did more for him than winning Olympic gold. Either way, I would like to see triathletes making a bit more money.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Well, that makes the Aus selectors job a little easier, no pure domestique athletes likely now. He did go worse than I expected, I thought he may have caught up on the bike, or at least held his own, only to get blown away on the run.
Aus will need some very good results early next season or 3 athletes won't be happening .
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ianpeace] [ In reply to ]
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Well that worked about as well as I expected for him...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Challenge has a regularly updated prize money earnings (no sponsorship etc) list across the sport.

https://www.challenge-family.com/...website-20191103.pdf

https://www.challenge-family.com/...bsite-20191103-1.pdf

It's a mixed list of ITU and LC throughout.
In LC, you're essentially a free agent. You race when and where you want, so you can maximize earnings by choosing races that will be easier to get a decent result in, pay an appearance fee or compensate in other ways. Also, since LC races are filled with 2000 age groupers, the coverage is greater. (Some ITU races have age group races, but most don't)

ITU athletes are beholden to the whims of their federation and the ITU schedule. It can be really gruelling, but also incredibly rewarding. There is nothing greater than the Olympics. But, visibility of results in short course is definitely lower, with the general media and audience being so LC focused.

Regardless of which distance and stream though, the 60th best earner in the sport is making only $21000. That's nowhere near enough to live off of in most countries.

It was brought up in another comment - it's not really about money. Yes, a number of "lesser" ITU athletes could switch to LC and do really well, but not everyone wants to. It's a very different style of racing that doesn't suit or interest everyone. For many, it's Olympics or nothing.

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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I posted previously Wurf had no swim time and only had a T1 swim time. Which calculates out to around 19:40 (2:40 behind 1st swimmer). Hope it was a great racvacation for him. Now back to his regularly scheduled IM life.

I don't think that is how he works. He is probably going to push hard at this for as long as his schedule allows to see how good he can get that swim bike.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So what the hell happened, did he swim 17;40 or not? If so, what the hell happened in transition? Did he have to change a wheel or what? The times just dont make any sense. If he did swim 17;40, then that was a great swim back of the main group and not that far off the lead. He should have been able to get on them on the bike. But with that transition(if that was what it really was) the race was over. Looks like he rode the pace of the 2nd pack by himself, and no doubt did not run that hard when he saw how it all played out..Something is up here, not sure what it was though..

Or did he just swim a high 19 minutes and the times are just all screwed up?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Grantbot21] [ In reply to ]
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I really don't think he had aspirations of finishing high up. He is using it to get faster. Swim with faster people, bike with faster people, run with faster people. Keeping his LC workouts mixed in should create a monster.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I’m going to go with the times being all screwed up. Didn’t someone say he was last out of water. 40s to Varga would not have been last. Lol that’s almost tail of 2nd back at WTS level.

Remember this was a race in basically a 2nd world country. Itu didn’t even do live splits they had external company doing it.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
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Re: Wurf to ITU [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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LifeTri wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
I posted previously Wurf had no swim time and only had a T1 swim time. Which calculates out to around 19:40 (2:40 behind 1st swimmer). Hope it was a great racvacation for him. Now back to his regularly scheduled IM life.


I don't think that is how he works. He is probably going to push hard at this for as long as his schedule allows to see how good he can get that swim bike.

Well, if his swim time really was 19:40, I don't think he'll get that down to the 17:25-ish he'd need to be competitive. Taking 2:15 off your 1500 m is a huge jump (about 9 sec per 100 m).


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Wurf to ITU [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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He finished but didn't do as well as i thought he would at a second tier ITU race (which is still amazingly fast)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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  He can easily race some spring ITU events in either Oceania or Caribbean again. But he’s at min 2+ years of dedicated full time 10-12 swims a week from being ITU competitive.

So I understand he’s doing this as a competitive alternative to getting better in the swim. Cool idea, and really it’s matter of how often he wants to be last out of water.

But no way he goes all in on itu. He’s going to use this as alternative swim training block. Nothing more. He can say he wants MTR and he can say he wants to be a domestique but then there is reality. If that motivates to get him to the start line, more power to him. If he actually thinks he’s doing this as a real pathway I’d suggest he needs his support team to step in very soon. Again nothing wrong with using this as some swim focus time but that’s about all you can use.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
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Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 10, 19 8:27
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Staer] [ In reply to ]
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Staer wrote:
Challenge has a regularly updated prize money earnings (no sponsorship etc) list across the sport.

https://www.challenge-family.com/...website-20191103.pdf

https://www.challenge-family.com/...bsite-20191103-1.pdf

It's a mixed list of ITU and LC throughout.
In LC, you're essentially a free agent. You race when and where you want, so you can maximize earnings by choosing races that will be easier to get a decent result in, pay an appearance fee or compensate in other ways. Also, since LC races are filled with 2000 age groupers, the coverage is greater. (Some ITU races have age group races, but most don't)

ITU athletes are beholden to the whims of their federation and the ITU schedule. It can be really gruelling, but also incredibly rewarding. There is nothing greater than the Olympics. But, visibility of results in short course is definitely lower, with the general media and audience being so LC focused.

Regardless of which distance and stream though, the 60th best earner in the sport is making only $21000. That's nowhere near enough to live off of in most countries.

It was brought up in another comment - it's not really about money. Yes, a number of "lesser" ITU athletes could switch to LC and do really well, but not everyone wants to. It's a very different style of racing that doesn't suit or interest everyone. For many, it's Olympics or nothing.

It’s a pity that the 1,696th best NFL player gets paid $480K per year to sit on the bench when most of the world’s best triathletes can’t make a living off winnings. By winnings it would take 24 years for the 20th highest earning triathlete in the world to make what a single NFL bench warming punter makes in a year.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ In reply to ]
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Some of us have predicted this result. Anyhow, brave man.
I dont think he thought about being in a top 20 spot. Some people here still underrate ITU or have no clue about it. World cups, are the 2nd division of ITU racing, and despite of that, the guy finishes the one before the last one. I try to read and learn about IM because I just see Kona and very few races, but I have been following ITU for more than 18 years... They are just 2 different sports. One is formula 1, as somebody said, the other is Paris- Dakar... Both are the same sport, but the speed...so different.
I dont think it is possible to excel in IM and then excel in ITU nowadays. Can you excel in marathons and then be a beast in a 1.5k? The answer is no. I just see one chance for the Lucy Charles type. Young and talented. Maybe, if leaving all the IM stuff behind, she could have a shot in ITU, but should do it now, and it would take 2-3 years to prove it in racing....The older you get, the less chances...and she is one in a million. In the men´s fiels, young guys in IM?mmmm I cant think of anyone so young with the potential to to swim 1.5k in 15-16m flat in the pool and run 30s in 10kms......

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
Last edited by: juanillo: Nov 10, 19 12:44
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Re: Wurf to ITU [timr] [ In reply to ]
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timr wrote:
I really don't think he had aspirations of finishing high up. He is using it to get faster. Swim with faster people, bike with faster people, run with faster people. Keeping his LC workouts mixed in should create a monster.

with respect, what's the point? he's flown across the world to do a single workout, and he got spanked. why not jump into a bunch of local swim meets, or OWS races, or even just local quality short-course events. he could find enough people to push him in the swim even at local/regional tris.

does it could as a workout if vargas shakes you off his feet 20 meters into the race and you don't see him for the next 2 hours?

____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Wurf to ITU [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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with respect, what's the point? //

The point is that no one knew what was going to happen, before it actually did. Everyone can guess, some guessed right, some close, some way off, but that is why they have the races, and guys show up, that's the point I guess. I for one would like to hear his race report, I think something might have happened, other than just getting dropped in the swim so badly. If that was the case, the times tell us nothing right now, something is amiss.


But now if he really did fall off more than 2 minutes in the swim, then yes, some swim meets might be a nice change if that is all he is trying to do, get faster in the water. Its not like he is paying for any of this travel or any expenses related to doing these races, and it is really off season for most ironman athletes, so why not try something different?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Why is he not paying for his travel? Aus would be covering his entry but travel I doubt very much. Not many would get world cup travel paid up front, maybe re-imbursed on performance but he didn't get that.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t think you understand how sponsors work, they pay his travel no doubt.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe they do, I know plenty who don't get that luxury, maybe you are right, or maybe just speculating.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
So what the hell happened, did he swim 17;40 or not? If so, what the hell happened in transition? Did he have to change a wheel or what? The times just dont make any sense. If he did swim 17;40, then that was a great swim back of the main group and not that far off the lead. He should have been able to get on them on the bike. But with that transition(if that was what it really was) the race was over. Looks like he rode the pace of the 2nd pack by himself, and no doubt did not run that hard when he saw how it all played out..Something is up here, not sure what it was though..

Or did he just swim a high 19 minutes and the times are just all screwed up?

He did not swim 17.40, just a split time mistake. Swam around 19.40, then caught the last pack of 3 guys that was 1m ahead and lost another 3m with the front pack in the 40k.
He finished in the 2nd worst run, over 36m. Mc Elroy ran a 30 flat.

So, not just swimming, running is an issue for Wurf or most of IM specialysts with no ITU background.

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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From his Instagram account where there's a picture of him starting the second lap of swim he was already dropped and alone... at least 45 seconds behind if not more... I saw the Internet (TriathlonLive) coverage but it was poor. No live timing.

Honestly, I have friends that race in those inter continental ITU races and if Cameron can't swim below 4:30 for 400m, He shouldn't even toe the starting line. That's the bare minimum to hang on the last group of swimmers. If not he will get drop every single time.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [MTL] [ In reply to ]
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I doubt Aus will be giving him too many more starts, was worth a try but now with guys needing to earn enough points to qualify 3 for Olympics and also needing to see their guys race head to head for selection their fields will be packed with the contenders. Royle, Fisher, Baily, Hauser, Willian and Copeland will be fighting for the 5 starts, surely.
And thats assuming Birt is safely in or he will make it 7.
Last edited by: chrisb12: Nov 10, 19 13:35
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Re: Wurf to ITU [juanillo] [ In reply to ]
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Based on the splits and the instagram photo, that makes sense, he swam around ~19:30, caught Konysbayev, Taccone, and Yonah swam ~18:30 and their bike splits are approximately 1 min slower than his 54 vs 53 minutes..reached t2 together. A 36 min ~10k was a shockingly poor performance for an athlete of his caliber...well within striking distance of top AGers for the distance, but maybe I overestimate the speed skills of long course athletes.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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A 36 min ~10k was a shockingly poor performance for an athlete of his caliber...well within striking distance of top AGers for the distance, but maybe I overestimate the speed skills of long course athletes. //

A few of you are pointing to his run time, pretty sure he just jogged it in. It was never about the run in the first place, he was trying to see how his swim/bike stacked up, as he is not going to be doing anything on the run, especially as a domestic. Now pointing to his swim time, that is what is relevant here. He was so far off, he could just make it to the stragglers, not anywhere close to the guys riding 50+ minutes. No doubt if he were in that group he would be fine, maybe even dominant, but he is a long ways from bridging that gap...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Did he say he was just going to chill on the run? Not buying it at all, why not DNF at t2 instead of getting his ego further bruised? Check the replay of the race, right at the time where they interviewing one of the Americans he made it to the finish line...he looked like "the jog" taxed him a bit.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Nick2413] [ In reply to ]
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That's why the US doesn't have anyone that can regularly be on the podium.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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jaretj wrote:
That's why the US doesn't have anyone that can regularly be on the podium.


Because you have to be really, really fast to regularly be on the podium?

Edit: Also, any "man" more than anyone, since it wasn't long ago a U.S. woman dominated. And U.S. women are currently ranked 1st, 4th, and 6th.
Last edited by: trail: Nov 10, 19 14:08
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn’t bag too much on the run splits. Running fast off itu bike is just something different. And he’s not even close to being prepared for any of this, he’s got too much IM endurance in his legs.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Just a general reply, but his wattage was pretty much the same as his IM wattage.

AP and NP pretty close, so basically it looks like he knew he was out after the swim and just had a nice aerobic ride and tempo run.

I honestly think he’s just doing this because “why not?” He’s already qualified AND validated for Kona.

If anyone of us could just go walk on to a WTS/WC, and we had the time, and our more important employment obligations (KonaQ) were fulfilled, why wouldn’t you? Just to test the waters, meet new athletes & coaches etc.

Maurice

ETA for stoopid speling
Last edited by: mauricemaher: Nov 10, 19 14:23
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Re: Wurf to ITU [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
.

If anyone of us could just go walk on to a WTS/WC, and we had the time, and our more important employment obligations (KonaQ) why wouldn’t you? Just to test the waters, meet new athletes & coaches etc.

Maurice

I would think it would be a better business decision to have raced at home in Noosa on a course more suited to his strengths and then follow the Aussie crowd up to China to race the 70.3 to establish contact with the triathlon business heavies in the region.He won't qualify for the Olympics but he may have been able to score some serious sponsor and travel perks like so many others are getting.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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He was never going to be jogging it in, if he wants be a domestique he still needs the minimum points to be available for selection. He needed a good race here or it is impossible. Like many ppl he watches ITU online and thinks they are not that fast.. the swims are always crazy fast, the bikes are nothing like a cycling sit n kick crit. They are hammering from the gun, even at this 2nd tier level.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Engner66] [ In reply to ]
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Well off some of the top age groupers. I think Todd Buckingham ran under 32 at worlds this year.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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He was never going to be jogging it in, if he wants be a domestique he still needs the minimum points to be available for selection. //

Yes, that was my point, it was painfully obvious to everyone watching, and Cam himself, that he was not going to run into any position, other than the one where he started. I'm sure he knew in his mind, that his race was over either after the swim, or halfway through the bike, and it was shut down from that point. Not exactly jogging or soft pedaling, but not hurting either, which is a full time constant in ITU racing..
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t think him “hurting” is going to shave another 4 minutes off that run split, and that would still put him mid-back pack.

I said earlier in this thread how crazy it was that people thought he had a chance to do well here and I’m equally as surprised that people are now making excuses for his performance. I think he’d be the first to say he got his ass handed to him and underestimated what it would take.

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Wurf to ITU [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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No excuses here, he got schooled in the swim, which really was the whole entire race for him. If you think he is only a 36 high 10k runner, well I cant help you there. He ran just a little slower than that speed for a marathon, in a triathlon no less..
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t think he’s a 36 minute 10k guy. But he might be a 34-35 minute 10k guy off of an ITU swim and spikey ride.

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Wurf to ITU [iron_mike] [ In reply to ]
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The point being that ITU guys are showing up to LC and killing it. The local swim, bike and run crowds are not. What do we tell weak cyclist? Go get dropped in a ride, it will make you stronger. Who is going to drop Cam in a local cycling event? Sure, maybe in a local OWS swim race but then what? Jump on his bike and try to stay motivated? I guess he could go swim hard, bike hard and time the start of a track meet (pink). I think he is genius and has no problem tucking his pride away and even worse... getting bashed on ST.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Wurf to ITU [timr] [ In reply to ]
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Three points:

1) his HR data suggests he wasn't jogging
2) this was a joint TA & Wurf experiment that has been over a year in the making
3) Wurf's main goal is to try to improve his swim for IM
4) As he has said post race - nothing like a butt-kicking for a bit of motivation
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Re: Wurf to ITU [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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I just think everyone except those on the course racing at the time, underestimate what the ITU guys are capable of in the bike leg . Wurf obviously thought he could make up the time lost on the swim once he got on the bike, he knew he would have a lot to make up but believed he could. So much so that he was able to convince the Ppl in TA that he was likely capable, they gave him a shot and he wasn't. Simple really.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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It was likely a buy low type of move from Aus. Their men aren’t really doing all that well beside Birt so I can see them thinking/hoping it worked out.

Their buy in was what likely a $4k travel trip for him and now they know.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, and I can visualise a number of Aus guys doing a little happy dance last night after the race
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Kudos to everyone for thinking outside the box as this was a very low risk move. I was able to sit on some sessions with Alan Webb when USAT attempted his quick career. Amazing enough he was actually swimming in pool sets w back of chase pack athletes. He just never could actually put it together in open water.

Federations at times have to do extreme things when the athletes aren’t getting results. They are on the hook just as much as the athletes are when their is no good results coming down the line.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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19:40 ... wow. Not impressed.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [realAB] [ In reply to ]
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But he still biked through the field, right?

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Wurf to ITU [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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Kudos to Cam for not getting lapped out.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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mungub50 wrote:
But he still biked through the field, right?


No, lost about 3 mins to the front on the bike.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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From Strava :

his bike average and NP power are slightly lower than Kona. So I guess he made the choice to stay with his group, not trying to come back.

He ran a bit faster than his Kona marathon speed (he ran equivalent to Marathon in 2mn33), so not pushing too much either.

I guess he did swim at his max, but then, being quite far from head of race, he stayed with the group, not giving his max.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Pyrenean Wolf wrote:
From Strava :

his bike average and NP power are slightly lower than Kona. So I guess he made the choice to stay with his group, not trying to come back.

He ran a bit faster than his Kona marathon speed (he ran equivalent to Marathon in 2mn33), so not pushing too much either.

I guess he did swim at his max, but then, being quite far from head of race, he stayed with the group, not giving his max.

Really? given a special opportunity by TA to race a world cup and you think he would just cruise around and not bother to try to catch?
That doesn't sound normal.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know WHY his pace was at that level.

But the Bike and Run are on his Strava, and for me it is clearly not his max for this distance.

Bike : NP slightly below 300w (slightly above 300 in Kona 2018 and 2019, for a much longer ride)
Run : equivalent to 2h33mn marathon (he can do 2h45 in an IM). So above his IM speed, but certainly not his optimal speed for an Olympic distance.

Choice ?
Tired ?
Burned from the swim ?

I guess it was a choice based on he fact he was far after the swim, but only my intuition.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Different bike, laps and turns imterfere eith average power, and prob already redlined in the swim. ITU athletes have ridiculous lactic capacity, racing just a bit off max effort for near the entire race.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Specificity that’s all that was. Which is weird to me that this was potentially some secret federation try out.

3 weeks post Kona? It was kinda destined for this. Where was he going to pull the speed out of his ability. He can’t swim or run at itu level. You have no real itu prep to be prepared in that timeline but I’m guessing they wanting to take advantage of a “soft” last World Cup event. And also not affect his actual IM racing schedule I think that was more the priority. I think this was simply a poorly attempted Hail Mary. It had no chance of working out based on his schedule and priority.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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It’s the old adage of what itu racing is;

It’s fighting a gorilla. You don’t quit when your tired, you quit when the gorilla gets tired.


-200m “redline” Swim start + beach run in start no less....
-next 16 mins at sustained strong effort
-30s sprint to get to bike
-~5 mins best effort immediately out of T2 to determine pack dynamic.

That’s just the first 25 mins of the race.......

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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O think it was more a case of Wurf underestimating the actual physicality required and overestimating his ability. He would have looked at average times taken to complete the 40k bike, thought I can ride 40k a lot faster I will be good to go. The fault in the theory being ITU courses aren't just a long straight ride, there is often tight turns and stop srart areas that lower average power and speed. And this is completed after crazy arse red line swims and beach sprints.
Read Amburgers race report on Noosa swim and transition run to see how he faired, and he comes from an ITU background and competes in this race most years so has the knowledge on what is required to race against ITU, even in non drafting races.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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It was similiar outcome to the US's relay in 2013 at the MTR world championships when the US high performance staff had olympic non-draft S/B stud Cam Dye race (he sat out the individual race to only race MTR). In "theory" it sounds like a good idea until the reality of him soft pedaling into corners on the hoods riding it "granny" style while the group behind him was hard charging aggressive the whole bike leg. Hell they caught him before he even got on the run, and his run was his weakest leg.

I still remember the look of annoyance that GJ showed in the background of the coverage when what seemed like an fairly good shot at the win, was only good enough for 3rd (Kanute was on that relay funny enough). She had this almost "WTF" look and then of course the "smile for the camera" when they got 3rd (it was their best event ever). This was of course the race where GB DNF'd because of a bad bike crash for one of the female ladies and thus US kinda was able to hold on for the podium.

I think Cam was cited in the post race interview

"These ITU guys just dont get the credit they deserve for how hard they race and how hard ITU is".

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Stats updated

19:33 official swim

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
It was similiar outcome to the US's relay in 2013 at the MTR world championships when the US high performance staff had olympic non-draft S/B stud Cam Dye race (he sat out the individual race to only race MTR). In "theory" it sounds like a good idea until the reality of him soft pedaling into corners on the hoods riding it "granny" style while the group behind him was hard charging aggressive the whole bike leg. Hell they caught him before he even got on the run, and his run was his weakest leg.

I still remember the look of annoyance that GJ showed in the background of the coverage when what seemed like an fairly good shot at the win, was only good enough for 3rd (Kanute was on that relay funny enough). She had this almost "WTF" look and then of course the "smile for the camera" when they got 3rd (it was their best event ever). This was of course the race where GB DNF'd because of a bad bike crash for one of the female ladies and thus US kinda was able to hold on for the podium.

I think Cam was cited in the post race interview

"These ITU guys just dont get the credit they deserve for how hard they race and how hard ITU is".

I was think the same thing, this was a solo version of Cam Dye relay experiment... I'm impressed he didn't get lapped out on the bike... But you can see from the run split, that it was likely a combo of being out of it, and being shattered from the red-line swim, and then the ride... As others have mentioned, power numbers are rarely the best metric to look at an ITU bike ride, because the courses are by design twisty, turny and where possible not flat... Meaning that you have sections that will be flat out, and others where you're soft pedaling, so you tend to have more deviation between average power and normalized power, and you get massive peaks, and bits of recovery (and of course positioning impacts that too...). After years of non-draft racing, and plenty of bike racing, I still remember how much of a shock it was in my first DL multisport race, when I got of the bike and realized how screwed I was, and how badly my legs didn't work... It's a different kind of hurt locker that you put yourself in...

Richard Murray had a gem of a meme this morning on his Instagram story about ITU athletes dabbling successfully into 70.3s...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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I have seen it mentioned in another forum he has said will be racing 2 more world cups early 2020. I wonder if he fairs any better with a few months specific training under his belt? Or if TA will still give him the starts. Point hunting for all but Birt is required for next year, would assume now they have seen his 'potential' there will be others requiring these starts given priority.
Last edited by: chrisb12: Nov 14, 19 14:20
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Wurf is Macca 2.0

And only difference is, Wurf will never win Kona!!
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Re: Wurf to ITU [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
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BT_DreamChaser wrote:
Wurf is Macca 2.0

And only difference is, Wurf will never win Kona!!

Well to be fair Macca did win the ITU World Champs as well,something Wurf has no chance in doing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPYAoi0SvDI
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Wurf to ITU [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
https://cameronwurf.blogspot.com/2019/11/jumping-in-deep-end.html?m=1

Thanks for the link

As always, really very interesting and fun. He is always straight to the point, very self conscious.

No warm up... probably the simplest significant improvement he can make :-)

He is willing to try, (over)confident, he do mistakes, but then no excuses, he recognize the reality and learn.

Open, fresh mind, humour, I really like the guy.

So, he will come back in ITU. Little chance he get "good results" by ITU standards, but I guess the main point for him is finding motivation in a different experience to work and improve his swim and running, in order to be more competitive in Kona.

I'm sure it can work... if no injuries from high(er) speed running.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, thank you for sharing. Brutally honest and self-aware. I'll be curious to see what happens next for him.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Wurf to ITU [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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A repeat of this race result. There's nothing he can do in the next 3 months that will change what we just saw. It literally would take him 2+ years of go hiding in a cave and grinding out training to get even a chance of competitiveness in ITU. Maybe he can get 20s faster in the water, but that's going to be insignficant in terms of actual "competing" at the world cup level of ITU. But that's not really what this is about, this is just an way to motivate him to grind out some swim and running in the "off season". So chappo to him, seems like a fairly self aware but also likely needs these types of "different" pathways to stay motivated. Athletes can have some "strange" motivation tactics for why they are who they are, but that seems like he's the type that needs to "race" into fitness/happiness.

My only pushback is he doesn't need to race WC's to see if this is working. I'd have him racing only local ITU events moving forward until he has shown actual progress and the ability to compete. And he's not going to suddenly be competitive at any of the WC's he mentioned he wants to show up to next. But that likely isn't sexy enough imo for this experiment. Not much coverage for Conti Cup races, etc. Not many news conferences or social media posts about the low level events by ITU. It's World Cup or bust for their coverage of it.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
And he's not going to suddenly be competitive at any of the WC's he mentioned he wants to show up to next. But that likely isn't sexy enough imo for this experiment. Not much coverage for Conti Cup races, etc. Not many news conferences or social media posts about the low level events by ITU. It's World Cup or bust for their coverage of it.

I suspect this might be the case.

He could slot into any number of elite training groups in Queensland and train like a madman with Surf Lifesavers or Triathletes who could drag his swimming up to the top Ironman level.Elite athletes and coaches are a dime a dozen along the 40k stretch of road or sand south of Noosa.Hell you can't go for a swim,ride,run or go to the shops without bumping into one.It is right in his own backyard.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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His own backyard? Queensland, Noosa? I thought he was a Tasmanian?
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Pyrenean Wolf] [ In reply to ]
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It’s pretty amazing to me he entered this race being so oblivious to the following

“Well, i found out quite emphatically on Sunday that the "shorter distance" or Olympic Distance racing is basically an entirely different sport.”

I don’t follow ITU at all and I am very familiar with this idea. I don’t understand how he failed to not remotely comprehend this before he hit the starting line.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
It’s pretty amazing to me he entered this race being so oblivious to the following

“Well, i found out quite emphatically on Sunday that the "shorter distance" or Olympic Distance racing is basically an entirely different sport.”

I don’t follow ITU at all and I am very familiar with this idea. I don’t understand how he failed to not remotely comprehend this before he hit the starting line.

Let's just say he obviously has a very positive opinion of his capabilities and assumed he would be competitive in a different format.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Indeed. But how? All he needed to do was look at his own training times and compare them to race splits. I mean how often do you shock yourself on race day. I’ve always believed your race time is probably 98% (I’m making that number up but you get the idea) determined before you ever start the race. New speed doesn’t magically appear in race day for the first time.
Last edited by: DFW_Tri: Nov 15, 19 14:01
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Re: Wurf to ITU [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I was surprised about him being oblivious as well but, I'm actually impressed with how he owned up to his ignorance.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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chrisb12 wrote:
His own backyard? Queensland, Noosa? I thought he was a Tasmanian?

Cam's dad is up there and he visits him.Coolum Cycles used to do his bike wrenching for him when he was in town.It is funny because he has been down to Denis Cottrels squad at the Miami pool on the GC and worked with both Denis and Thorpies coach Doug Frost before so I don't know why he keeps doing all this weird shit.Dare I say it,he seems to be a little like Lionel with his crazy ideas taking him off on tangents.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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The issues now are actually worse than before he showcased his talent.

Now it’s obvious he doesn’t deserve a starting spot at World Cup level. So now it’s going to be harder on AUS to place hold or whatever they can do to get him on the start. It’s going to be 100+ guys next year fighting for starts to get points for different reasons.

So now AUS is in a case of “fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me”. He’s not close that some “quick fix” or just getting experience can help. He simply isn’t ready for demands of competition and that’s the worst spot to be in because you simply aren’t good enough and not much you can do to change that.

So AUS has to be smart in this “project” and imo has to tell him no way he can race above conti cup level. He can want it all he wants or he can say he’s going to do all he can but the reality is it won’t matter. FFS he’s at a level of hoping not to get lapped out. That should end any chance you have moving forward 10 months before the Olympics.

But if wants to globe trot on his own dime or whatever more power to him. But it really makes no sense moving forward.

I’d actually suggest he needs more consistency with training and less racing distractions if he’s truly doing this for his Kona swim improvement. International travel will only hurt his long term development than help due to the chaos it causes with a routine. You aren’t gaining anything race week and then you have to account for breakup in the routine and any travel issues.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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The blog suggests that he thought he was going to be able to compete, kudos to him he worked out very quickly that he would not and he owns it.

If he really thought he was going to hold his own, it's a bit like the pre kona preening, then he's either not very bright, a relentless self promoter or just likes agitating.

Jan Frodeno after Frankfurt showed everyone they were racing for second, all the trash talking in the world doesn't change anything.

Hope the Aussies make sure their slots for these races are going to people who can help in the Olympic year or develop some younger athletes
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Re: Wurf to ITU [stevie g] [ In reply to ]
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stevie g wrote:
The blog suggests that he thought he was going to be able to compete, kudos to him he worked out very quickly that he would not and he owns it.

If he really thought he was going to hold his own, it's a bit like the pre kona preening, then he's either not very bright, a relentless self promoter or just likes agitating.

Jan Frodeno after Frankfurt showed everyone they were racing for second, all the trash talking in the world doesn't change anything.

Hope the Aussies make sure their slots for these races are going to people who can help in the Olympic year or develop some younger athletes

I would go with "relentless self promoter" but hey it sure works for him. look at this, how much media and how many posts has he had dedicated to him, with how many commenting compared to Aus true ITU athletes. Our no 1 guy won 2 WTS races this year, Leeds and Hamburg but hardly gets a mention on here. Virtually nothing in the media in Aus either, but Cam decides to do a lower level ITU race and it appeared in a number of forms of media here. Cam seems to be doing that bit right.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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We have some good talent for the future without a silly Wurf experiment. We got a 2nd place in the junior men, Hauser has potential but had a pretty bad injury leading into this season.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
chrisb12 wrote:
His own backyard? Queensland, Noosa? I thought he was a Tasmanian?


Cam's dad is up there and he visits him.Coolum Cycles used to do his bike wrenching for him when he was in town.It is funny because he has been down to Denis Cottrels squad at the Miami pool on the GC and worked with both Denis and Thorpies coach Doug Frost before so I don't know why he keeps doing all this weird shit.Dare I say it,he seems to be a little like Lionel with his crazy ideas taking him off on tangents.

Very interesting. He certainly can't blame his 19:33 on "lack of access to great coaching". In any case, his blog did make for interesting reading, even if he is a "relentless self promoter." Thanks for providing such detail into Wurf's background. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Wurf to ITU [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
We have some good talent for the future without a silly Wurf experiment. We got a 2nd place in the junior men, Hauser has potential but had a pretty bad injury leading into this season.

This wasn't really an experiment for the future, it would have been trying to find someone for only 6 months from now, not 2024. We have one guy ranked in the Olympic top 3, Royle 28th and William sitting just outside the 30, and others further down. I can see why TA would have decided to give him a try. Other than Birt no one else has put their hand up and given reason to favour them over another, no other athletes have podium or top 5 so why not look at a domestique? Although unless Cam was just having a totally bad day, they were looking in the wrong place, maybe Royle or Fisher or Baily would be better options as would likely be in the position to do the job. Just my 2cents.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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chrisb12 wrote:
TriguyBlue wrote:
We have some good talent for the future without a silly Wurf experiment. We got a 2nd place in the junior men, Hauser has potential but had a pretty bad injury leading into this season.

This wasn't really an experiment for the future, it would have been trying to find someone for only 6 months from now, not 2024. We have one guy ranked in the Olympic top 3, Royle 28th and William sitting just outside the 30, and others further down. I can see why TA would have decided to give him a try. Other than Birt no one else has put their hand up and given reason to favour them over another, no other athletes have podium or top 5 so why not look at a domestique? Although unless Cam was just having a totally bad day, they were looking in the wrong place, maybe Royle or Fisher or Baily would be better options as would likely be in the position to do the job. Just my 2cents.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [stevie g] [ In reply to ]
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They could have asked him to swim 400 in the pool and worked it out.

Typical mismanagement by ta
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Re: Wurf to ITU [stevie g] [ In reply to ]
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He might swim better in the pool, many do. And I assume he believed, and convinced them he was capable of catching up and doing the required job on the bike. He was a grand tour rider after all remember.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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I meant they could have looked at his bets 400 time and that would have told them no. This is an governing body that does everything to stuff up opportunity for elites, especially those that they don't like.

They were almost insane with panic when peter Robertson got the slot with direct qualification and similarly angst ridden when an outlier got the qualifier in 04.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [stevie g] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, and that is obviously why they made the selection policy so crazy hard this time around, with relays to consider also. It may backfire though if the athletes are all now needing to slog through the season to earn their spots and not able to focus enough on the crazy physical demands Tokyo is likely to throw at them. Hopefully those that are comfortably in the top 10 will be confident enough to trust TA with their selection to prepare like the other top 30 or so in the world will be.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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I think a lot of the young talent would destroy Wurf in sprint and Olympic distance.

I’m a huge Wurf fan, but this is a massive waste of time, TA used to have performance standards on the website but I can’t find them anymore.

2016/17 automatic selection criteria for under 23 and elite was 11:28 for a 1k swim and 14:21 5k run.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
I think a lot of the young talent would destroy Wurf in sprint and Olympic distance.

I’m a huge Wurf fan, but this is a massive waste of time, TA used to have performance standards on the website but I can’t find them anymore.

2016/17 automatic selection criteria for under 23 and elite was 11:28 for a 1k swim and 14:21 5k run.


that would have been for their elite programme categorisation. To race a wc it used to be 2 conti cup podiums I think. To race wts was wc podiums, these old standards haven't been followed for a few years now though it seems. No one else from Aus wanted to race this wc so was no harm in allowing Wurf a start. Different story in early season races in Oceania region where the competition can be fierce to qualify a start. Wurf would need to be substituded in meaning someone ranked pretty well won't start. This is similar to Copeland a number of times this season, his points were used to get Aus a start but it wasn't given to him, he was substituted for either Hauser or Fisher. I will be watching early season to see if they use this strategy for Wurf. From reading his blog it looks like it may have been agreed upon.
Last edited by: chrisb12: Nov 16, 19 1:24
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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They really are grasping at just about anything if they are still in communications and/or looking after Wurf. In all seriousness several MTR medal contending countries are HOPING you guys pick him for the MTR as it will then remove y’all as contenders.

Federations will do a lot of weird things in hopes of it working out. So I totally get them going this route *initially*. This was a low risk at this time of year. However moving forward starts to actually put egg on their face more than Wurf. You support or encourage an athlete of that ability to race those events, your just starting to show complete incompetence. But federations have been known to do that with decisions across all levels etc.

I remember years ago in San Diego the women had open spots at the SD ‘12 WTS race that was the last chance US qualifier (pretty much no one wanted to travel to that race so it was very weak). So HP manager sent out “any *elite* can take the spot” (seriously) to the coaches as the US needed to fill their hosting quota to “look good”. So a local area athlete and her coach took it and all went to social media bragging about she making “US Trials and being 1 race away from Olympics”. I laughed and cringed cus the athlete had NO business racing that level as she had been lapped out in her other itu races (she only raced 3 races ever). She proceeded to get lapped out after 2nd lap of bike after near 26 min swim. But they sorta had no shame about it. It was my thoughts....just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 16, 19 5:24
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Wurf has a really good podcast interview w oxygen addict triathlon podcast that was published today (unsure when the actual interview was done).

Sounds like a really motivated and cool athlete talked about doing an workout w new coach in 2017 as a 5hr ride + half marathon run....Froome did it with him (ran also).

On the itu front essential TA and Wurf are still a go. Must meet training standards and will look to race Cape Town WC in i believe Feb. which I believe will be a sprint so he’ll have better chance to actually compete. But then the run will be quick.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Wurf has a really good podcast interview w oxygen addict triathlon podcast that was published today (unsure when the actual interview was done).

Sounds like a really motivated and cool athlete talked about doing an workout w new coach in 2017 as a 5hr ride + half marathon run....Froome did it with him (ran also).

On the itu front essential TA and Wurf are still a go. Must meet training standards and will look to race Cape Town WC in i believe Feb. which I believe will be a sprint so he’ll have better chance to actually compete. But then the run will be quick.

Listened to it yesterday. I don't think he is a fan of Boris Stein ;)
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Re: Wurf to ITU [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Wurf has a really good podcast interview w oxygen addict triathlon podcast that was published today (unsure when the actual interview was done).

Sounds like a really motivated and cool athlete talked about doing an workout w new coach in 2017 as a 5hr ride + half marathon run....Froome did it with him (ran also).

On the itu front essential TA and Wurf are still a go. Must meet training standards and will look to race Cape Town WC in i believe Feb. which I believe will be a sprint so he’ll have better chance to actually compete. But then the run will be quick.


Listened to it yesterday. I don't think he is a fan of Boris Stein ;)
Watch the post Kona podium interview and he calls out his tactics and calls him a 'giant douche' there with the other guys laughing hysterically...
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Re: Wurf to ITU [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
NAB777 wrote:
Listened to it yesterday. I don't think he is a fan of Boris Stein ;)

Watch the post Kona podium interview and he calls out his tactics and calls him a 'giant douche' there with the other guys laughing hysterically...

And that why Cam is good for the sport. He isn't here to make friends And calls it how he sees it

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Must meet training standards //

I haven't listened as of yet, but would imagine this part is basically about swimming. Cant imagine they worry about his bike, and his run, well that might or might not be irrelevant. I suppose if they are actually thinking about the relay and not just a domestic for the main race, he will have to do some pretty fast miles there too..


So I'm really curious as to what pool standards he will have to make, what are the sets they key off of? Or is it maybe just a 200/400 time stand alone? I know over the years there have been combo swims that are used, like an all out 200, followed by an 800, or something like that. Anyone know what the Aussies do for this??
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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They used to have times for Junior, u/23 and senior athletes, that needed to be met to compete at certain levels but that doesn't appear to be used anymore, at least I can't find anything on the website. It appears that more recently they use prior results rather than time trials. This scenario will probably be more a make the rules up as we go along type thing. I would be extremely surprised if he would still be in consideration for the relay, as we appear to have other guys who can swim and ride ok but get dropped on the run, no need for another. Any very strong swim bikers don't seem to have helped us with our girls either, still seem to start the next leg behind the pack, so I doubt they will be considering this tactic. Maybe they will see how he goes in Capetown, and possibly give him a go on a relay team here in a local race, if he appears to be really good then maybe he will get a relay start in Abudhabi, but I doubt it. I think Aus need to find women for the relay team more so than men.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I’m guessing they have their own “unique” sets to showcase but potentially like a 200/800 set (particularly the 800 to see where the major drop off is).

Cam talks about his start speed was there and he only then got dropped at 400 and beyond.

200/800 test could showcase his strength in the back half of being able to “settle” once the sprint off to the first turn boy.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [chrisb12] [ In reply to ]
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Cam’s issue with racing Cape Town is that it’ll be a sprint. Positive will be that it *should* be a wetsuit swim. The sprint swim should “hide” his swim weakness the best however the sprint has one bad thing.....

You gotta run fast AF.

14:31 (only 26 people finished within time cut off to score points)
14:25 (only 27 people finished within time cut off to score points)
14:41 (only 39 people finished within time cut off to score points)

Those are the 3 winning times.

As he said in the podcast “14 is out of the world for my ability”. He’s looking at likely ~2.5 min buffer to be able to score points w/ the 5% rule. At best you know he won't have any head start on the run. So can he run 17 flat to "score" points....That's what it will be.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 28, 19 6:38
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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For kicks and giggles I looked up the 2012 San Diego results, and then that athlete's other results...consider me truly baffled. How the heck did that athlete even get her elite card in the first place with swims like that? A nearly 17 minute swim at Clermont...goodness. Nice to see some current long distance pros on that results list back from when they raced ITU.
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Re: Wurf to ITU [HeartRN] [ In reply to ]
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Let's just say that back then they did have much more creative and "less known" pathways to getting elite cards. I know this because I know athletes in NC who found some rather "back door" ways into elite cards. While some people say they think elite cards are too easy to get, we also have issues for short course athletes to getting pro cards since they did away w/ pretty much all olympic distance pro races. Thus the power score pathways, etc.

And the 1 year specific ITU pathway to pretty much help all post college athletes get into the ITU game.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Saw McElroy share this video podcast interview w/ Wurf. (13 min interview w/ Wurf IM highlights on video)

https://www.youtube.com/...wt55pzd_JbabO8Vn-tOI

Takeaways:
-racing in Cape Town world cup in Feb

-swim is getting more and more critical in Kona.

-threw shade on Lange's "sick" in Kona after having is PR best front pack swim.

-happy with 5th considering this was pretty stellar field and top 5 all finishing w/ PR's.

-Gerrat Thomas (TdF winner 2018) says Wurf didn't get the "filter" that everyone else has of thinking before they speak, lol

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wurf to ITU [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I read Capetown has been cancelled, I wonder how this effects Wurfs plans?
One less world cup and points opportunity before the Olympics could have an unplanned effect for a few.
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