Thanks for making this, my wife went tubeless, almost not by her choice as our bike mechanic just set it up that way. I figured it would be better for her since she has trouble replacing tubes anyway and so far it's worked out fine for her.

I don't have tubeless ready wheels but will do so in my next purchase, whenever that may be. My only noob question is about replacing sealant, i was told generally every 2-3 months, will we ever get to a point where we won't have to worry about replacing sealant for a year or more? or is that out there and I am just unaware?

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

This depends on a few things, such as the type of sealant, the amount used, and how humid the weather is. Pretty much every tubeless sealant is latex-based (someone can chime in if they're aware of something else), and I usually top-off the amount every 6 months or so. If you use more sealant or live in a more humid area, you might be able to get away with once per year. You should also completely remove the tire to wipe it out about once a year, because you can get big chunks of dried sealant hanging around. Some companies have a longer-lasting or 'endurance' formula, such as Orange Seal, though I've heard through the grapevine that these don't tend to seal holes quite as well as the traditional formulas.

There are quite a few tube-type sealants that are usually glycol-based, and can last up to as long as 'the life of the tube'. I haven't found that these seal as well as latex-based tubeless sealants, even when used in tubes.

out of interest given that kienle was riding solo would it been faster to try to pump up and /or put an inner tube in or keep going as he did ( he did lose time in corners besides losing a good bit of trye preseeure ) ? cant rember when he punctured but it was between 120-130 k ?

and have you changed your personal opinion on tubeless or is it still the same ?

Main question I have is whether there is reason to wait another year or 2 for tubeless to become more standardised or mature across different manufacturers? I haven't done a whole load of research on it as I have no pressing need for new wheels, but it seems there are still a few issues which are potentially a PITA or at least off-putting to a newcomer, such as the difference between tubeless and tubeless-ready, different bead and rim types, certain tires being incompatible with certain rims, etc.

Good thread, thanks!

So a serious question for a non pro self supported triathlete: does there exist a super low rolling resistance 700 x 23C high pressure capable racing tubeless tire set up that won't require more maintenance effort than a comparable tire plus tube set up? If no, is there a ballpark target date for when such a set up might be available on the market?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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I don't think so. The fundamental trade with tubeless is more setup and maintenance in exchange for fewer flats.

There are long-life sealants that can make tubeless setups last a long time nearly maintenance-free, but even those don't really even the equation.

I'm not sure how to manage it in a thread but one way a group could be useful is flagging good/bad tire and wheel combinations. My understanding is that there are small differences in sizes that mean for some combinations it is extremely hard to get the tire on. I'm not sure exactly what the problem would be with a larger tire/smaller wheel combo but presumably there is one or the variance wouldn't exist. Harder to seal? More likely to blow off?

That may just be a list of combos with a rating/vote for ease of setup. With enough info you could presumably work out where each tire/wheel is on the smaller/larger scale and make an educated guess about how an unlisted combo might work.

Or that may already exist somewhere and someone replies with a link to it.

I have a set of Giant PSLR aero wheels. I've always ran them clincher. They're from around 2015 or so as things were moving to 11spd being the norm on 105 components and nicer.

The spec sheets all say they're TLR. Has anyone owned this wheelset and tried it as TL? The tires on it are due for change, and my spare GP4000's are also fairly worn. Those maybe have 500 miles or so left on them, mostly sidewall wear/cuts.

I'm interested in converting to the new GP5000's, but if these work well as TL I'd be down for trying it if people have done it without much pain.

I also have the other Giant wheelset that came with the bike, alloy aero PA2 wheels. Supposedly those are also TLR. Same question for those. I'd run those in a 28mm for mixed road and light gravel use.

Thanks!

It's tough to say. If I was in his shoes, I probably would've just kept riding. Sometimes with road tubeless, the sealant can't keep the puncture closed over a certain PSI (personal experience puts this at roughly 50-80psi. If you're running 25-26mm tires (common size now for tri, especially with wide rims), this is usually enough to limp home.

As for my personal opinion, I can't recall but there's probably a thread out there that has summed it up. The key issue I've had over time with road tubeless is hit-and-miss tire/rim fit between brands. This is also a key concern of Dan, and it's one of the drivers behind this thread (i.e. get more intelligent tubeless discussion going, so we can find setups and standards that work, and encourage manufacturers to be aware of the discussion and desire for easy installation).

MTB has largely gotten over this hurdle, by way of better rim shapes, better bead materials, and better, more consistent tire sizing. My last MTB (don't currently have one) was tubeless. My road bike and tri bike currently are not, though I have some stuff on the way from Schwalbe to test. My other issue is that I have equipment coming and going fairly frequently, so it often isn't practical from a time standpoint to set up everything tubeless (nor do manufacturers always send their tubeless kit, or tubeless-ready tires). I'm kind of at the mercy of what they want to send.

This is a tough call (for most consumer products). How long to wait? You could've asked that same question two years ago, five years ago, or more. Personally, I'm a late-ish adopter to most things, and want the early adopters to go through the heartache for me. I still have an iPhone 6S because I like the headphone jack.

The good news is that you largely don't have to wait. There aren't a ton of new mid-high-end wheels still being sold that aren't tubeless-ready. If you aren't ready to go tubeless, you can still run inner tubes and standard clincher tires on those wheels... all you have to know is the slightly updated tire installation procedure.

From what I've heard, Schwalbe's latest tubeless stuff is the most forgiving in terms of installation ease. I haven't used them, but should have something in my hands fairly soon. To me, the bigger question to ask yourself before making the jump is whether you can find the right tire to suit your needs in terms of puncture resistance. For example, with most brands' tubed road tires, you can pick between ~3-4 levels of puncture resistance (usually affecting rolling resistance). Supersonic, GP4000, GP 4 Season, Gatorskin, for example. I don't see as many choices with tubeless. Sealant helps, but can't make up for casing thickness. At least for training, I don't want a thin race tire - tubed or tubeless.

"High pressure" - can you clarify what you mean by that?

As for maintenance, here's the short of it - and let's assume a time frame of about a year. If you never puncture during that time, tubeless will require more maintenance than tubes. You'll have to top off the sealant at least once during that time, and at the end of the year you should remove the tires to clean out any sealant build-up. You might have to replace the valve cores a couple times, because they can get clogged with sealant (typically takes a minute or two).

If you DO get punctures during that time, the waters get muddy. With tubes - you're changing tubes. With tubeless, you at least have a chance that they'll seal on their own (and sometimes you won't even notice it happened). The tubeless situation gets better if you're on larger and thicker tires, with lower pressure (i.e. the Hutchinson Sector 28). But - the puncture still might not seal, and then you're putting a tube in plus the other regular maintenance.

The other factor is whether you run sealant in your inner tubes. I did this when I was racing. You effectively add in a lot of the tubeless maintenance - i.e. topping off sealant levels, and the tubes end up getting glued shut after about a year - needing replacement.

It's not perfect. TLDR, you're probably doing at least a little more work with tubeless.

Thanks. Sounds like if I was buying new wheels anyway then no reason not to go tubeless (still confused as to the difference between tubeless and tubeless ready...), but since I don't need new wheels there is nothing that compelling about moving to tubeless at the moment. Not overly fussed about puncture protection since I ride on nice roads and am pretty careful about monitoring wear on my tires - have had one puncture in the last 3 years and that was a freak bit of metal that ripped a slash in the tire that wouldn't have sealed anyway. And rolling resistance seems to basically be a wash if you use latex tubes (which I do).

Likely in the market for a new bike in a year or two, so will be a lateish adopter and jump to both tubeless and disc brakes all in one go!

We've looked into doing a database for this. Tough part is pulling it off in a reasonably time-efficient manner.

"I'm not sure exactly what the problem would be with a larger tire/smaller wheel combo but presumably there is one or the variance wouldn't exist. Harder to seal? More likely to blow off? "

The loose-fitting combos require an air compressor or CO2 to install the tires. You have to blast the beads quickly into place, or all of the air rushes out. I suppose you could say they're more likely to blow off, but I've never heard of this. Tubeless beads are made to be pretty robust. The exception may be with hookless rim beads. This has been around for fat bikes and MTB for a little while now, and it's making its way to road/gravel for some brands. We're looking more in to this. It seems that you may not be able to run tubed tires on these, because the beads aren't strong enough and need the bead hooks for retention.


EDIT: Confirmed - at least for the ENVE SES AR 4.5... you can ONLY run a tubeless-ready tire on them (yes, you could put a tube inside if you really want). You need the strong tubeless-ready tire beads.

I'm not familiar with those wheels, but you should check with Giant if there is any tubeless conversion kit required. At a minimum, you'll need tubeless-specific rim tape and valves (some rims want you to use a specific valve, too). Conti makes a tubeless-specific version of the GP5000 - that's the tire you'd need. You can't run the tubed version tubeless.

This is mostly just a semantic detail. Pretty much everything today is called "tubeless ready" (a.k.a. TR, TLR, etc). This just means that you can set the wheels/tires up tubeless, but you don't have to. For example, a Hed Vanquish is tubeless-ready, but you can run inner tubes and standard clincher tires.

The only exception, that I mentioned in another response, is that there are some new hookless rim beads - the ENVE SES 4.5 AR wheelset, for example. Their website says that you may ONLY use tubeless or tubeless-ready tires. So that wheel is officially ONLY a tubeless wheel (of course, you can put an inner tube inside of a tubeless-ready tire... but the point is that you need those sturdy TLR tire beads). I have to imagine that such wheels will come with clear warning labels because that's a completely new frontier.

I went tubeless pretty early on, maybe 4-5 years ago. I got a set of Shimano Ultegra TLR wheels when I was rebuilding my road bike with 11-speed. At the time there weren't a lot of choices on tires. My shop couldn't get me the Schwalbe (One?) at the time, so I went with Hutchinson, since that was who Shimano worked with on their TL development.

It took a bit to figure out the tricks to getting the tires seated the first time, but they haven't been too bad since. The tires have been fine since.

My question is, has the tire technology improved enough in the last few years to justify replacing them before they are completely worn out?

If it was me, the answer is no. Just wear out what you have if it's working (especially if you're just training on it).

The larger issue might be tubeless tire selection. I'll quote myself from an earlier response -

"To me, the bigger question to ask yourself before making the jump is whether you can find the right tire to suit your needs in terms of puncture resistance. For example, with most brands' tubed road tires, you can pick between ~3-4 levels of puncture resistance (usually affecting rolling resistance). Supersonic, GP4000, GP 4 Season, Gatorskin, for example. I don't see as many choices with tubeless. Sealant helps, but can't make up for casing thickness. At least for training, I don't want a thin race tire - tubed or tubeless."

I don't know what model of Hutchinson you're on, but it's worthwhile to do some research to find if your desired replacement tire has a similar level of puncture resistance (assuming that's what you want).

Just my experiences in a nutshell:

Road

• Mavic Road UST: just works. Tires mount and dismount just as easy as a clincher. Never had an issue with seating a tire. Tires seem quite durable in use.
• HED Jet Black: I've tried various tubeless tires on these over the years


• Vittoria Corsa Speed: tough to mount, tough to seat, very fragile in use, had two flats on perfect roads neither of which sealed well enough to not put air in. Also witnessed numerous VCS flats as a sag driver last year for IMFL
• GP 5000 TL: tough to mount, tough to seat, initial durability impression is favorable
• Schwalbe Pro One: tough to mount, seating wasn't bad, no flats but tread seemed to wear quickly. This was a couple years ago so the tire has likely changed since.
• Specialized Turbo Tubeless: easy to mount, seating wasn't bad, fairly durable in use

Gravel

• Reynolds ATR


• Specialized Sawtooth: easy to mount, easy to seat, never had a flat
• WTB Riddler: sigh to mount, tough to seat, had a few flats but they all self-repaired during the ride with minimal pressure loss
• Some generic alloy FSA tubeless ready 650b rims


• Schwalbe G-One: easy to mount, easy to seat, had a few flats but they all self-repaired during the ride with minimal pressure loss
• Compass Babyshoe: too easy to mount, had to build the rim bed up with tape significantly, seated easily one I had the proper amount of tape, had a few flats but they all self-repaired during the ride with minimal pressure loss

Mountain
Long list of tires, favorable experiences with mounting and seating all of them. Flat protection from tubeless really seems to shine for mtb.


General summary:

• For road, the only tubeless system I'd recommend to a friend would be Mavic's Road UST system. The variance in experiences I had with tubeless on my HED Jets isn't HED's fault necessarily but rather a lack of tolerance control between the rim and tire manufacturer.
• In my experience there's definitely a trend between tire pressure and ability for tubeless to self-seal and casing thickness and ability for tubeless to self seal. Lower pressures mean the sealant is more likely to be effective and thicker casing means the sealant is more likely to be effective.
• In terms of practicality of tubeless for road use, I think you really have to weigh the mode of failure, the likelihood of failure, how quickly you can repair a tubed flat, and how quickly you can repair a tubeless flat. Keep in mind that road tubeless *can* be effective in sealing simple punctures but won't save you from a sidewall cut. In my own calculus, it makes sense to race on tubeless for short course races but tubed tires for long course. If I did extensive on-road training, I'd likely favor training on Mavic's Road UST tires.
• For gravel, I think things move a bit more in favor of tubeless though I could still see an argument for a tubed setup in certain conditions.
• For mountain, the only option is tubeless in my opinion.

Any idea what tire width and pressure Sebi is running? Or what they are running in the pro peloton for pressures?

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Speaking from my MTB experience - some brands of tyres can be easily used tubeless even if its not indicated by the manufacturer (e.g. Schwalbe). In case of Conti - never try to run their standard tyres as tubeless. The key factor is the construction of sidewalls. In case of Conti race tyres the sidewalls are so thin that the sealant seeps through the pores in side walls without ever sealing them. Their TL tyres are quite bit stiffer than nonTL.

I would expect the same would be true also for road variants. TL will probably not be quite as supple as nonTL. Lack of tube may even things out, but not necessarily.

If you're suggesting that you can run a standard clincher tire and convert it to tubeless, this is not true, and dangerous. Road pressures are MUCH higher and you cannot convert a non-TLR road tire to tubeless. The home page article I referenced covers this.

Now, I'm sure someone out there has converted a non-tubeless road tire to tubeless without crashing, but it is absolutely not recommended. In theory the thinner casings of the non-TLR tires would be more supple, but it isn't worth the risk. And even at that, the latest tubeless tires have gotten a lot more supple/forgiving/comfortable.

good stuff thats a very good idea to try to bring the industry together and i would add its not just wheel and tyre maker but also the sealant maker should be included.

personaly after having tired sealant i would not go back to it until the sealants work more reliable. I could do with the more work but i dont want more work with the uncertainty that it will work .
and in case of kienle i gues it borderline worked for the rear tyre but intestingly apart from his , all the more high flyers that punctured in roth and frankfurt where front wheel punctures and i doubt even sebi would have been able to go on with the low pressure at front wheel with out losing more time.
ps what i would say is that wheels that can just be run tubeless is not a very practical idea ( at least now ) given the fact that often you will still need to put a tube in to get home after a sidewall issue.

There are wheels that must use a TLR tire (i.e. the hookless ENVE 4.5 AR) - but you can still put a tube inside to get home. The hookless rim needs that sturdy tubeless-ready tire bead... but you can technically still put an inner tube inside.

On Tri, road and gravel I am running a triple Bontrager set-up with Bontrager R3 or AW3 TLR tires, mated to various Bontrager BLR carbon wheels and running the Bontrager sealant. Over three race seasons no in-race or training ride flats even or crap roads and on some big square edge hits. Most issues have been on initial installation or having the valve get gunked up. As I am lazy, I usually just have my LBS install them for me.

Re: Sebi - I don't have that info. With the pro peloton, 25mm tires are basically the new minimum size for both road and TT... with probably an exception or two. More 28's are showing up. I don't have a lot of pressure info because they tend to be fairly secretive, so I asked my buddy Dan Cavallari over at Velonews who spends a lot of time covering EU races. He said that they still tend to err on the high side (which sounds to me like a carryover from the old days of running realllllly high pressure on narrow tires). Anyhow, Dan said that he doesn't think that anyone is running over 85-90psi on 28's, which sounds high to me. I normally run about 72psi front, 75 rear on 28's and I'm a fatty @ about 200 lbs (been lifting weights and stuff). I never pinch flat. Dan weighs about 10 lbs less than me and said he runs 75-80 because he prefers a bit firmer feel. I run about 80-85 on 25s... and I never ride 23's anymore.

Thanks for the thread,

I still ride tubulars mostly in training and racing, so the maintenance issues or time are largely irrelevant to me.

My concerns are basically safety related, what are the issues with blow offs or burping tires?

Are they largely exaggerated perhaps from early systems which are not as robust or refined as current?

Thanks for starting this,

Maurice

Honestly, I haven't heard of many issues with road tubeless in terms of blow-offs or burping. Burping is usually caused by low pressures and hard cornering - i.e. MTB. And blowoffs, I can't think of any horror stories either. The only tubeless blow-off I've experienced was about 8-10 years ago, using an original Hutchinson Bulldog CX tire which had SUPER stiff carbon beads, on a Stan's Arch 29er rim. Those rims were kind of designed to be used with non-tubeless tires set up tubeless, with a very high bead shelf. During installation I had to use an air compressor to blast the tire in place, and as the beads were forced up onto the shelf, there was a loud BANG as one of the beads failed, and I got showered in sealant.

Thanks,

Largely what I want to hear or want to be true is that when I leave the front door with a tubeless set up (properly) that I will be basically at the same risk as clincher or any other properly set up system. Would this be a reasonable thought?

In terms of maintenance, I don’t really see a big deal. We can convert someone from tubed to fully tubeless in about 15-20 minutes. Includes cleaning, new tape (always stans, use a heated skewer to puncture valve hole) new valves etc.

Road adoption has been extremely slow though.

Maurice

In my view, with current technology - yes.

I was not suggesting using non-TLR road tyres. It was more aimed at making people aware that TLR tyres are generally stiffer.

Honestly I see no point of TL on road bike. You will get less supple tyre (esp. compared to latex tube nonTLR tyre). You do not need a grip like you do in MTB. Only gain is no pinch flats, which are easily avoidable with latex tubes.

10-4. I wasn't 100% sure if that was your intent, so I'm glad we clarified.

On the topic of tube pinch flats, this is one that still mystifies me (i.e. that it's an issue for people). I like to run low-ish pressure and never pinch flat with any tire setup. Back when I worked in a bike shop, the pinch flats we fixed were pretty much always from people that weren't serious cyclists and forgot to inflate their tires for a long time.

My bigger concern these days isn't pinch flatting, but impacting carbon clincher rims. So I do tend to run a bit higher pressure on carbon, just for that added measure of safety.

Yikes this thread is getting long very quickly.

May I suggest you have a table of recommended sealant volumes by tire size.

Also guidelines on whether carrying a spare tube, plug kit or both is reasonable for flat repair

Sealant: It varies by sealant manufacturer, but 30-60ml (1 - 2 ounces) per tire is normal for average road tires (i.e. 23 - 32mm). Any any sealant will tell you how much to use in the instructions/package. I usually err on the high side because it delays the time I have to add more sealant.

Spare: If you're going long, a plug kit and spare tube are a good idea. I normally just carry a standard flat kit (i.e. tube, CO2, tire levers, tire boot, multi tool).

did you read the interview with sebi? a number of us see a big plus to road TL in triathlon. however i respect the contrary view. but that established this is just like disc brakes in road and tri, 3 and 4 years ago. happy to discuss the relative merits. but we're traveling exactly the same trajectory, in a roughly similar time arc, with road TL as we did with road/tri disc brake. it's all going to happen way quicker than you thought it would, hence this thread, to help smooth the transition.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

People said the same thing about disc brake on road bike several years ago. Now I see every other bike in the Tour de France has it.

The Corsa Speed TL on my bike feels pretty supple.

No I did not.
And where do you find the benefit of TL? Only one I can imagine is a slim chance to have sealed flat. You would most likely have to stop to reinflate but at least you save that 2 minutes for swapping tube. Other than that?


EDIT: just read the interview. Comparison with butyl setup is not really fair. Moreover the extra weight of TL is not in the breaker its in the sidewalls, which need to be thicker in order to avoid sealant seeping. Sidewalls being thicker offers pretty much no benefit while making the tyre noticeably less responsive.

I did but for me, I just don’t see the benefit. And the cons seem to outweigh the pros by a lot in my opinion. Perhaps the pro’s outweigh the con’s for those who have shit roads near them full of potholes where pinch flats are pretty common.

I’m actually still surprised Sebi made the switch. I could have sworn I read somewhere he was on latex tubes the past few years. If he was, then this new schwalbe setup is actually slower for him (even if the new setup wasn’t tubeless) compared to the conti proto type tire and TT’s he has been running for those years.

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blog

obviously your editorialized view of the effectiveness of sealant differs from sebi's. it also appears you've made a decision, so, no real need to continue the discussion, is there? this thread exists to help people across the transition to TL, as absolutely (in my opinion) will happen, just as we've tried to do the same here for disc brakes. even those pro triathletes who're not moving to schwalbe are moving in fair numbers to conti TL. and i think hutchinson will have something to say about it.

this isn't to say that TL has displaced and surpassed latex/tubed. it's that we're now at a moment of parity and, just like disc brakes, once you're at that point, there's only one direction that i can see this going.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Fractions of a millimeter difference. You need a thin layer of latex or other boundary layer. The fastest non-TL tend to be a little under 0.75mm. The fastest TL (which are just as fast or faster overall), a little over 0.75mm.






What do you mean by "responsive?" I'm not familiar with that characteristic. Do you mean more compliant, e.g. the tire deforms more easily to road imperfections?

Thanks for the thread and good timing as I'm about to switch to tubeless for crit racing. My current wheelset (Reynolds Strike) has worked great with a GP4000 and tube but I've got a pair of Hed Jet 6's on order which I'll set up tubeless in combination with GP5000 tires (on order).

The main reason for me to go tubeless is for racing, and the ability to hopefully finish a race if I were to have a puncture that would end my race when racing with GP4000s and inner tube. It could be the difference between a DNF or a podium finish so it seems worth it. Also, often in races you will hit rougher road sections or potholes when in the pack that you can't avoid, so the risk of a puncture is higher vs training. For training I'll stick with my Strikes with tubes.... for now. Fixing a flat on the side of the road is no big deal but who knows maybe I'll like my tubeless set up so much I'll switch my training wheels too.

Either way, I'm looking to set up my new wheels next week and I'll provide some feedback or learnings as I go (Hed Jet 6 disc brake, with GP5000TL in 25mm).

Thanks for the setup info. I'll be curious to see how you like it - especially running such wide tires (25mm Conti tires have always inflated to about 28.5mm for me on the wide Hed Jet Plus rims). I haven't heard much feedback yet on tubeless for crit racing i.e. how fast you can you corner after losing some psi with a puncture that seals.

Well I have shared my opinion and asked for yours. If you think there is no room for discussion so be it.

And I do agree that we will likely see a shift to TL. Regardless of its effectiveness.

obviously there's room for a discussion, and the capacity to share opinions because you've just shared yours. and i welcome that. it just didn't seem to me that there was room in your statements for a discussion, rather just a dissertation: "i see no point of TL on a road bike" on the heels of sebi making the exact point of TL on a road bike (at least in triathlon). but maybe i misconstrued what you wrote.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i setup my jet plus with a 25 mm gp 5000 last night, i measured 26.11 today. I wish i had written down the width if the wheel but i think the jet plus wheels are basically measuring ant 24.5. i wonder if that is too wide of a tire for that rim??

The Plus rims are ~21mm internal and ~25mm external. Tires usually stretch a bit over time, too. And I haven't used the GP 5000 yet, so I'm not sure if the sizing runs different than the 4000 (but I can 100% confirm how the 4000's run, after using many of them). I have some tube-type 5000's that I need to slap on a set of wheels one of these days.

And a 25mm tire is not too wide for that rim, at least not in terms of safety. Aero you could argue, and a 23mm would be a bit faster (of course, it would inflate to larger than 23mm).

Since these are technically tubeless... Get rid of the pump and flat problem once and for all. Tannus solid rubber tires. Yes I know CRR is up 1%... But with ironbrand , Alcatraz, nyc race prices ridiculous these days and you are not podium contender, it just makes sense. Or just for training rides if you are

Had GP 5000 TL put on yesterday by lbs, just went to go for a ride and found my front tire in a puddle and flat. Cleaned up the mess and aired up the tire. Will I need to replace the sealant? Is the tire still rideable...Help.

Hard to say without seeing it in person, knowing the wheel/tape/valve/sealant setup and choices, etc. The easiest blanket answer is that the tire and rim either don't fit tight enough or aren't compatible, resulting in a seal that didn't work. Also could be the wrong sealant, old sealant, not enough sealant, or sealant that wasn't mixed up well enough in the bottle or shaken enough inside the tire to fully coat the rim/tire and get a good seal around the entire bead perimeter. If there was a puddle on the floor, that suggests that you lost quite a bit and yes - you will need to replace what was lost.

With my background in pressure sensitive adhesives from my previous job I would also look into the time between installing rim tape and mounting the tubeless tire (and adding sealant). Adhesives need some time to fully bond well to any surface so it may just be best to mount the rim tape the day before putting in sealant. If the adhesive hasn't fully flown along the rim surface yet (at the microscopic level) you may have microchannels that aren't air tight and can allow sealant to creep in (potentially killing the rim tape adhesive in the process).

I'd just try again, see if it holds air (without adding more sealant). If it does, then add more sealant and off you go. If it doesn't work, remove the tire and tape, clean the rim, make sure it's fully dry and clean before installing new rim tape, then install new rim tape, let it sit overnight, then install tire and sealant and inflate.

Benv,
I don't have a background in adhesives.
it's our recommendation to tape up the rim and then inflate a tire WITH tube for a few minutes in order to get the tape to adhere firmly. It works well, but as more of an adhesive expert than me, do you have thoughts on time to fully adhere that tape under pressure?
thanks,

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

In general it accomplishes the same thing, but under pressure it'll go much faster. The adhesive surface is not perfectly flat nor is the rim surface, and pressure forces better contact between the two, thereby improving the bond. In the PSA industry it's very common to measure peel strengths after a 20' dwell (bond) time as a way to standardize and minimize time related effects. Some products are measured after 24h but that's less common than the 20' specification. Point being that after 20' dwell, the peel strength will be close to the final peel strength, but that's not always the case for every adhesive. Some take longer to build and then specify a peel strength after 24h instead. Since I don't know the chemistry of the rim tape adhesive (I'm assuming it's a crosslinked acrylic adhesive) I'd play it safe and wait a little longer before exposing it to liquids.

So when using a tube, if you inflate it fully and let it sit for 20 minutes you should get a very good and reliable bond. Chances are the bond is close to its final adhesion strength and the risk of problems is very low. That said, I'd personally follow the recommendation but let it sit under pressure overnight, just to be safe.

BTW what is our recommended rim tape for Hed Jet Plus? 21mm Stans?

You're the first mention I've seen of this and I think it's important. In the "flats" punctures I've received out riding tubeless that let out more air than I wanted. I simply stopped, plugged the hole, jammed some air in it and kept riding. It might have cost me 30-seconds to a minute. And that's only if I felt like I needed optimum pressure to finish a training ride.

I don't even carry a tube with me when I'm racing on my TT bike. If the tire was so damaged that one of the plugs I had wouldn't fix it, then my race is over anyway. Honestly, if it ever happened when I was out training I have a hard time believing that without a pretty major repair (boot, tube, patch, etc) I wouldn't have to call someone to come get me.

Plugs are an absolute must with tubeless.

I just finally tossed out a rear Schwable One Pro that had 5k+ miles on it (The front is still going strong). Some of it gravel, some of it on the road. I probably plugged the rear tire 4 times. The plug just becomes part of the tire and you move on with your ride and never worry about it.

Hi Dan

Do think this is a bit different to the discs on road/tri bikes adoption.

A lot of rim choices have been taken away and there is a perceived safety advantage.

I'm still on rim based brakes and had a recent slow leak on my Giant Propel tubeless rear.

I had a half arsed effort at trying to patch the outside, messing with a plug to no avail.

Left the wheel lying around for a week, very tempted to tear off the tire and shove a tube in it but wary of the mess.

Took it to a shop yesterday a little surprised he just patched it on the inside and added sealant.

I'm not totally convinced if I got a puncture on a ride as to how I would resolve this as he mentioned how stiff the tyre was.

To.me the Giant Gavia feels slower the Conti GP4000S II clincher and S Works Turbo 24mm and less supple than the S Works.

Good thing is 9 months but that many miles without a puncture.

Bad news is strong chance of being stranded and I am the only driver in my household.

Thanks for the extra info - do you have a particular brand or size plug that you prefer?

I keep the this with me for racing

https://www.amazon.com/...s=gateway&sr=8-2

Just because it's small, light, and the heads on it make it easy for rapid repairs.

For training something a little less race focused.

I bring a few of these plugs. This box should last you a lifetime

https://www.amazon.com/...=8-1-spons&psc=1

I bought this little guy just because it happened to be on sale. Lets me carry a few plugs and came with the little tool to jam them in the hole. The tool itself comes with enough plugs to last a few seasons.

https://www.amazon.com/...s=gateway&sr=8-5

Thanks!

Edit: Also thanks to Tom A below for the added suggestion (don't want to overwhelm the thread with redundant replies)...

I'm not the one you're asking...but, here's my suggestion:

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6526327#p6526327

Basically, Genuine Innovations plug tool, used with either the GI "strips of bacon", or my preferred cotton butcher's cord solution ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

25mm wide tape for our Plus rims. Stan's or Hed tape.

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

My current set up is HED Vanquish 6s with GP5000 (23 front 25 rear) and they are an awesome combo. I had my shop set them up when the wheels came in, so I can't comment on mounting difficulty.

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

I don't think you can get the gp 5000 tubeless in 23mm... you may have tubes in those wheels, or you are riding 25s and don't know it.

You are correct, I checked last night and I am on 25 front and 28 rear. And it is an awesome setup.

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Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes

Hey all - just a heads up that we published a new front page article that continues our discussion of road/tri tubeless:

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...d_Strategy_7365.html

This time I covered the ins and outs of sealant for tubeless... What type should you buy? How much is needed per tire? How do you install it? Can you mix different sealant brands? This and more geekery at the link above.

I am still working my way through this thread so I apologize if someone has covered this...a friend just bought some Schwalbe tires (MTB) and they did NOT go on easy (Stans rims). I have some Specialized Fasttrak tires and Roval Control carbon rims that I struggled to mount. Neither one of us is inexperienced with mtb or road tires. I am only saying this to point out that (I don't think) tubeless mountain bike tires are mostly sorted out so it might be kind of hopeful to think that road tubeless is going to get significantly better for mounting.

Rich

I have a brand new setup of V6 wheels and had BY FAR the easiest TLR setup I've ever had with this wheel and tire combo (Bontrager GR1).

My method after consulting with Andrew:
2 wraps of HED tape
Install tubes in tires overnight to set tape
Install HED TL valves
Install GR1 tires BY HAND (no tools! YES!!!), add Bontrager TLR sealant
No compressor needed to set front, tiny compressor shot to set rear. Zero loss of air. Incredible.


See you Saturday Andy. :)

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

In my experience it's about technique. My road bike has Reynolds Strike TLR wheels and I read they're a bitch to get a tire on and if you get a flat on a ride you're screwed but in my experience with GP4000 tires it's not the case at all, and only a matter of technique (unhooking the bead on both sides and pushing it to the center of the rim). I put new tires on this weekend without needing tire levers. I've had similar experiences on my MTB when I set it up to ride it tubeless (and also replaced the rear tire from a Maxxis Ikon to Maxxis Aggressor) - it was really easy.

I'll set up my new Hed Jet 6 Plus wheels I received yesterday sometime this weekend... still waiting on my GP5000TL's to come in. BTW I was pleasantly surprised the HEDs came with rim tape (included, not yet applied).

Hard to say what caused the struggle without having all of the info. It could be as simple as the mounting procedure, if you aren't making the adjustment that's necessary for all tubeless rims (reference the article I linked in my original post). I almost always find the initial mounting of the tire beads to be easier with MTB tubeless tires than road tubeless. The most recent tubeless MTB tires I've used were Maxxis, and they have mounted up pretty easily on more than one rim (and I'm not one of those people that thinks every tire mounts easy - I've had more than my fair share of crazy-difficult setups).

With road tubeless, we definitely aren't there yet in terms of easy mounting across all brands of tire and rim. I've heard quite a few reports that the Mavic UST wheels/tires are easy, but I haven't tried them yet. Same with Zipp - I think their recent stuff is supposed to be pretty dialed in.

If you're talking about DAMn, we'll be at County Ditch 13 flipping crepes and handing out the third leg cue cards. See you then.

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

Gregk and Benv,
I have heard the GP4000 is ok to to install at least on Roval rims from a friend, which is ironic given that the old Gran Prix' (circa 1998) were some of the hardest tires to get on clincher rims.

I think I have decent technique getting tires on...the mechanics are pretty simple once you understand that the middle of the rim has the smallest diameter, plus beer helps;)

I am also curious to know i fany one has experience with how much the beads stretch after being mounted for a while, they're not supposed to but they do, at least on clinchers. Not much, but enough that out on the road you can usually change a tube without much effort, so hopefully that will happen with tubeless too.

Rich

What I think would be nice to have is a little guide on best practices when you get a flat whilst NOT racing. I'll leave a few questions that I would like expert users to answer.

Clearly, in a race setting where one just wants to get back riding asap, it may make sense to wait very little and just throw a plug in the tire (I think keeping a Dynaplug Racer at hand is the quickest way).

While training instead, how do we maximise the chances for the sealant to work? eg. is it better to stop, position the hole down to facilitate the flow of sealant, plug it with our finger (is this going to help?) ?

And, generally, after how long does one assume that the sealant is not going to be able to do its job?

Does it make sense to reinflate the tyre straight away, or better to ride a few more miles at the lower pressure (if rideable, of course), to give the sealant more time, and then inflate again?

It seems to depend on the tire. Traditional non-tubeless clincher tires do seem to stretch out a bit over time. I don't have enough experience with enough road tubeless tires to make a blanket statement. I can tell you that the Hutchinson tires with carbon beads from 5+ years ago didn't stretch AT ALL and were a bear to install on everything I tried. I reviewed some American Classic wheels and actually had to leave the tires on when I sent the wheels back... they were Hutchinson Fusion 3's and I couldn't get them off (and put them on originally with considerable difficulty). I later learned that AM Classic didn't approve of using those tires due to the beads, but there were very few other options on the market at the time, and I didn't have them at my disposal.

"While training instead, how do we maximise the chances for the sealant to work? eg. is it better to stop, position the hole down to facilitate the flow of sealant, plug it with our finger (is this going to help?)?"

-I've never had this really work. In my experience, it either seals or it doesn't, and shaking the wheel or positioning it in a special way doesn't do much. I've punctured and done as you suggest (stop riding, position the hole downward to catch more sealant), and it basically just keeps spitting, because the puncture was just too big. Or sometimes it seals while riding and you never have to stop. I think the best remedy is using a good sealant (see our in-depth test articles), and keeping your sealant levels topped off.

"And, generally, after how long does one assume that the sealant is not going to be able to do its job? "

-I don't understand the question. Can you rephrase? I assume that the sealant will do its job.

"Does it make sense to reinflate the tyre straight away, or better to ride a few more miles at the lower pressure (if rideable, of course), to give the sealant more time, and then inflate again?"

-Perfect world, the puncture seals while riding and you never stop. Mountain bikers are familiar with this. You hear a puncture, and then it stops leaking/hissing after a few wheel revolutions and you keep going. With road tubeless, the sealant has a harder time doing its job because of the higher pressures. So, if you start at 100psi, puncture, and then it seals at 70psi... I'd just keep riding (though a bit more slowly/carefully in the corners). You can try inflating again, but you might blow out the seal... causing it to leak back down to 70psi and seal again. I try to just finish the ride, and would then use a patch/plug kit at home.

The other thing I want to emphasize in general (you didn't ask this) - is that I think that this whole situation is going to get better as more wheels and frames work with wider tires. A 28mm tire on a Hed Vanquish rim will inflate to 31-32mm wide. Maybe you run your pressure in the low 60s. This is a much easier scenario for sealant to work compared to a 23mm tire at 100+psi. Because of all this, I think the best place for someone to start with tubeless (if they're wanting to try it) is for training, and likely on a road bike that'll have wider tires than your tri bike. I think it's no coincidence that the companies that are big on tubeless are also big on wide tires (i.e. ENVE).

Some interesting comments here...especially the anti TL stuff. Been running road tubeless for about two years and not a single flat. I ride some pretty crappy roads in Nor Cal as well. For those of us that do a lot of mountain biking it just seems natural and a no brainer transition. I started with Spesh 2Bliss rubber on my Roval CL 50 wheels but have switched to the new Conti 5K TL and they are awesome. Only real downside i have noticed is they seem to lose a bit of pressure over a few days vs other TL tires. I carry a Dynaplug but frankly have never had to use it. I run the size 28 Conti's on rims with 20.6mm internal and they measure out to over 30mm so can run pretty low pressures (mid 70's) so a great ride quality.

Thanks for the comment. I think there's an important clarification to make, whether you support tubeless or traditional clincher tires. I have seen both sides make the argument of "I'm running X setup, and haven't had a flat in _____ time period, therefore my setup is good." While this certainly isn't a worthless data point, I hesitate to put too much emphasis on it. The reason is that the biggest driver of puncture resistance is the thickness/material/construction of the tire tread, casing, and any puncture resistant layers - not whether the tire has a tube or not. Tube pinch flats are another story, but they virtually disappear with proper inflation pressure and tire size.

The number of punctures experienced is definitely something to track over time, but we can't escape the randomness of the debris that we run over. The best chance at reducing punctures is to run a beefier tire. In other words - a Gatorskin with a thick tube will always puncture less than a tubeless Corsa Speed. They're different animals. If we control for this with two tires that are identical, but one has a tube and the other doesn't - things get more interesting... I just can't find any such data.

Note: I'm heading out for a week of backpacking, so I probably won't have access to this thread through the 11th. Dan will check in periodically in my absence.

This is a pretty timely thread and I'll throw in a couple of opinions and ideas.
1. Tire pressure: I think some of the arguments against road tubeless come from thinking along the old paradigm about tire pressure. Yes, high pressure makes tubeless less effective, but with tubeless you don't need high pressure. To me 60 psi was sufficient when I threw a 28mm tire on my all-road bike's rear rim on a recent trip where I new I was going to stay on the road. If I had a 32mm tire (GP5000tl here I come) I would probably drop it to 45-50 for the road. Normally, I run a Schwalbe G-One Speed 2.0 on the back and I ride that just about anywhere, on or off-road. The only wheels that I still run tubes are my tri race wheels because they sit around most of the time.
2. Sealant: from the very beginning, I found a recipe to make my own and have never bought sealant from a store. When you buy the separate ingredients in bulk, it is very inexpensive. In two years of tubeless, I've had two flats that did not seal. One just required a tube and on I went (I patched the tire after the ride). The other was a sidewall cut that I patched and the seal on that tire/rim was so good, I pumped it up again tubeless with a hand pump and have been using it since. I'm in a very dry desert here, so summer requires more vigilance as the sealant starts to turn sludgy, but generally I just scrape it out with a food scraper, add it back to my pot of sealant, blend it up and then pour it back in.
3. Speed: riding big, fat tires on the road took some getting used to, but now I never worry about the road surface, either pavement or dirt. With a WTB Byway in front and a G-One Speed in back, I can ride anywhere that I want to go. It feels really different, but when I get back on 23-25mm tires, I hate it and can't wait to go back. I've also done a reasonable amount of testing and found that supple gravel/mtb tires (at least the ones I have bought) don't give up much if anything to my control tire, a GP4000SII in 25mm when climbing. On an extended steep climb that lasted circa 5 minutes, the control tire was 2-3 sec faster than the three other tires I tested (the 2.0 G-One Speed, an old {no tread in the center} Conti Raceking Protection, and a new Raceking Protection). The control wheel dropped nearly a pound compared to the others, so that difference was not all rolling resistance.

To me, tubeless has become a no-brainer, other than for tri use, but that is because my race wheels are old and narrow. If you maintain and ride a lot of different bikes then it does not make as much sense for tubeless either. If you only ride the road and you don't get flats, then again, why bother with tubeless? Big, fast rolling tubeless tires have changed how I think of cycling. It used to be road, or off-road with a different bike for each. Now it is just riding and I go where I want.

Chad

I finally received my GP5000TL tires today so I thought I'd set up my brand new Hed Jet Plus wheels. I started by applying two layers of the included HED tape on each wheel with the intent to put on the GP5000TL's, include a tube, inflate and let it sit overnight so I can turn them into tubeless tomorrow. But I was naive and had no clue what a bitch those GP5000s would turn out to be to put over the rim. The tires are very slippery and way too tight; no way I could get anywhere close to being able to put one on the rim. I gave up, and ordered the Koolstop tire bead jack. I should get it on Saturday and will try again then.

In the mean time I took an old GP4000 and put that on. Still a little tight but I could put it on quickly without any tools. Inflated those so at least I know it's not the rims being too much of a problem, and I can try out the wheels with tires soon.

But damn, those GP5000TL's are not gonna be fun to set up...

I respectfully disagree with both of your assertions.

First, pinch flats risk reduces with tubeless full stop. Yes, I can reduce it with tubes by jacking up the pressure and then calling it "proper pressure" when I stop pinch flatting. That's not how I like to determine "proper pressure." "Proper pressure," to me, is the the pressure that gives the best combination of comfort and rolling resistance.

Second, I disagree with your definition of a flat as a puncture. A primary benefit of tubeless is that you can puncture and *not flat*. I measure "flats" by the number of times I have to stop at the side of the road. Not by the number of times something penetrates my tire.

So I think you're discounting the benefits of tubeless on both counts.

The Hed Jet+ / GP5000TL seems to be a tough combination (never tried it myself but from reading all the complaints here). It just doesn't seem like it's worth the hassle to run that combo, does it? It will be tough to mount, tough to fully seat the bead, and if you ever get a flat that doesn't seal on the road you're calling uber. Doesn't seem worth the trouble to me. I would find something that fits better. The current model Corsa Speeds fit the Jet+ rims just fine, for example.

I will only be using them for crit racing but not training. So any flats or repairs will be taken care of at home, so I am not really worried about flats on the road. So once they’re set up, I should be good for a while. Hopefully with the bead jack it’ll be reasonable.

I've been using Conti GP5000 clinchers with latex tubes on my TT wheels this year and so far they have been great. However.....They were a PITA to put on, If I were to do Ironman again, I'd probably stick with the GP5000s but go tubeless and just overdose a bit on good sealant. There is NO WAY I'd be able to change those tubes in a race situation...the bike is far more likely to get thrown in to the nearest tree..!

I like the sound of Stans 'Race' sealant, but apparently you can't put in in through the valve because it will seal it...which makes it a nightmare to set up initially.

I've put stans through my valve for years and never had it seal it. You take the core out right?

Fair enough. I guess I've never found that my "proper pressure" requires a psi low enough that I'm regularly striking rims on the pavement. I do admittedly run a bit higher pressure on carbon clinchers in some cases purely due to the safety concern of striking the rim hard (especially on rocks... at more than one recent gravel bike product launch ridden on MTB trails). I've tried a wide variety of tire sizes and pressures, just to be clear. The only bike that I really find works best when I'm hitting the rim a lot is the fat bike, which I no longer own. And I don't want to stray from our topic at hand of road tubeless.

Yes, there is a difference between a flat and a puncture. I do think that the more important figure to track for tubeless is punctures that seal before the tire becomes completely flat.

My current setup is Reynolds Aero wheels (46's & 65's) rims are 19 internal 28 external. Schwalbe Pro Ones 25's (actually measure @ 29). I have been on this setup for over a year now. Had a few punctures seal.....never left stranded or needed to put a tube in. The Pro Ones, I have been able to mount by hand easily (no finesse needed) and removable with a single plastic tire lever. Negatives are they are not confident tires in wet weather and they seem to have air loss overnight.....not a lot, but enough that I needs some psi before every ride. Need to inflate these using a CO2 as a floor pump does not work.

Always love the Conti GP4000's so wanted to try the GP5000TL for a bit more durability......was worried they would be a tight fit though. My take on any tire (tubeless or not) is if I can't fix it/replace with a tube in the field......I will not use it.

Last week at the start of a 45 mile ride I had what I thought was a sidewall tear on the Pro Ones as had a leak at the tire bead right at the rim edge (with a small bulge).....sealed enough that I could complete the ride. Inspected afterwards and did not see a tear in the tire so I just cleaned the tire and remounted - still had the same leak at what looked like a different spot (and same small budge).....installed new tape and same thing - decided to put the tires aside and will look to find the problem later (my guess is the tire is not seating correctly somehow).

Had already ordered the GP5000TL so I mounted these - 28's that measure 29. Surprised that these mounted just as easily.....hands only and no finesse needed, removable with a single plastic tire lever and able to inflate them with a regular floor pump. A week later and neither tire look to be bleeding any psi's. Granted this is probably due to the GP5000TL 28's being ~90 grams heaver than the comparable Pro One 25's.

Great (and timely) thread! I've been hesitant to make the switch to tubeless, in part because of the added mess and maintenance. I've done the Dirty Kanza 200 tubed without any flats. And I've only ever had one pinch flat on the road -- riding at 30+ mph in the middle of a pack where I didn't see the road crater before I hit it. I didn't see the point of tubeless, but I was curious.

I started with gravel. I've run tubeless on my gravel bike all year with excellent results. Only one puncture -- and it sealed before I knew I had a puncture -- telltale sealant spray on the frame told the tale after the ride. For me, the added benefit in gravel is being able to run extremely low pressures without worry. Not really applicable to my road bike.

For the road, I've been waiting until such time as road tubeless tire performance crosses over to be equal or better than tubed tire performance. It APPEARS that this may have happened with the Conti 5000 TL. Reports indicate the same width TL having the same rolling resistance at a lower pressure than the tubed 5000. The reports are promising enough that I'm going to give it a try.

My situation: On training rides, I generally alternate between two bikes. This means one bike may be on the sidelines, hanging on a rack, for a week or so. In the winter, the road bike may be idle longer just to avoid getting it in winter muck.

My question: How long can you leave a bike idle before the idleness leads to sealant issues? I've noticed that sealant begins to congeal at the bottom of the tire after some point. And tires that previously were well sealed seem to seep a little air after they are left idle for a time. Is there a rule of thumb on how to maintain the sealant in an idle bike? Is it necessary to tilt and spin the wheels periodically to refresh the coating inside the tire?

I second the Dynaplug recommendation. I have the Micro Pro and it's so easy to carry, I just toss it along with a CO2 cartridge in the same pouch I carry my phone and call it a "flat kit".

I don't know that I've ever seen a recommendation for this from a sealant or tire manufacturer. Personally, when I had tubeless-equipped bikes, I'd try to pump the tires up at least once per month if they went unridden (mostly to be sure that the tire beads stayed seated properly) - and at that time I'd also give each wheel a hard spin to keep the sealant moving around. You need to add sealant too - typically every six months or so - and that's a time to spin the wheels again.

This also reinforces the need to periodically remove and wipe out the tires completely (i.e. once per year or so) - this will show you the sealant condition clearly, and show if any dried chunks have accumulated.

Normal Stand No Tubes is fine..and i'm told very good..but I understand that the 'Race' formula is a newer and has more crystals to make it better for bigger cuts. However, they say that it will block a valve, so you have to pour it straight in to the tyre and then finish mounting it.

Interesting.. I've never poured into the tire like that. Seems like such a mess

It can be done reasonably easy if careful. The bigger the tire the better (fat bike tires really easy, road bike tires a lot more care needed). I generally always add through the valve now. Much less risk of mess.

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

Perhaps this is something I can cover in a home page article and/or video. It's not bad if done correctly (get the second tire bead 75% on, pour the sealant in... then slowly rotate the wheel/tire so that the sealant is sitting in the area where both tire beads are in place... then finish putting the second bead on the last 25% of the wheel). The time that this can get more difficult or messy is with tire beads that are either really loose or really tight.

Method I found that helps is to actually put the whole tyre on first then lever one bit off with a tyre lever and inject the sealant in the small gap that you make. then remove the lever and tyre just springs back. It took three of us to get 4 x GP5000tl onto 4 x Enve 7.8 rims the other day so no way would I be attempting to do that with sealant loose and sloshing around.

Update - I set up my Hed Jet Plus wheels with Continental GP5000 TL tires this weekend. So, spoiler alert, I got it done in the end. But, it was a total pain in the ass and my hands are all sore from trying to get these tires over the rims.

There are two big problems trying to mount them; first the tire is extraordinarily tight and the forces needed pull a bead over the rim are impossible to overcome without various tools. Secondly the tire slips over the rim so easily that as soon as you're working from one side to force it over a rim it'll move and undo itself on the opposite end. Say you pull the tire over the rim as far as you can, then with any other tire if you were to use tire levers or the Koolstop tire jack you'd have enough friction on the ends of the section that isn't mounted yet, that you can stretch the tire with tools and pull it over the rim without it undoing itself. But because this one is so slippery, one of the ends will start to move and undo already mounted tire sections. Those two things combined make this a total bitch to mount.

In order to prevent this slippage at the ends I decided to use zip ties to tighten a section of mounted tire agains the rim, so to force hold it tight to make slippage more difficult. Not at all perfect but it helped. In combination with a tire lever in one hand and the tire jack in the other hand I eventually got the tire mounted but it always took many tries and close to an hour per tire.

Once mounted, the tire is so tight both beads are in the middle channel of the rim and they'll prevent easy installation of the valve stem. Tightening it causes the bead to get pinched underneath resulting in a leak and the inability to inflate it. This took me quite a few attempts of trying to inflate it with a compressor, then trying to get the valve to be tightened enough without pinching, inflating again, etc. If I didn't have a compressor, no way I'd eventually gotten the tire installed.

If these wheels would be for training I would say it's not worth it trying to set them up with GP5000TL; they simply can not be fixed in the field. But since I'm using them for crit racing it should be OK. Planning to ride them on the road this week in sort crit type training ride to check everything is working fine. But damn installation was no fun.

Thanks for the report. I'm generally hearing that the GP5000TL is fitting tight, but I haven't had the opportunity to try them myself. That is a bit surprising on the HED rims, because they are one of the easier rims to mount tires on (in my experience - and when using the proper technique of using the dropped center channel in the rim bed). For what it's worth, I'm on some Boyd Altamonts now, and they seem to be good in this regard - but the GP5000TL still may be pretty difficult.

The trick I use when one portion of the tire keeps coming unmounted as you mount the other side is to use these little clamps. Or something similar.

Interesting clamps - not sure if I would trust that on a Hed Jet rim because the fairing is very thin and flexible and I wouldn't want to risk cracking it. But, there's gotta be similar tricks or techniques out there that help. The tire definitely plays a big role here - when I installed the tape and put a GP4000 with tube on it (per Hed's recommendations to make the tape seal) I had nowhere near the same issues. Tight fit vs my Hed Belgiums for sure, but nothing difficult or impossible to fix on the side of the road.

You don't clamp the carbon fairing - only the alloy portion of the rim (i.e. brake track).

I have a similar experience with the GP 4000 (with tubes) - easy installation on ~2013+ Hed rims. Only issues I've seen are folks that didn't use the dropped center channel and were trying to install tires like it's an old non-tubeless-ready rim.

Are you clamping the tire bead outside of the rim? Next time you do it please take a pic - I think many of us would benefit from the various tips and tricks to try and mount tubeless tires since clearly there are some fit issues to be worked out before this system is appropriate for any level cyclist.

As to use of the center channel - when I got my Canyon Aeroad which came with Reynolds Strike wheels the various reviews about the wheels said they're a pain to mount and if you got a flat on the road you're screwed because the fit is too tight. But I learned that's 100% about improper (i.e. incomplete) use of the center channel. Yes it's tight but position both beads in the center channel and there's nothing difficult about it. So yes, step one when mounting tires on tubeless ready rims is to do that part right. With the Hed Jets + GP5000TL, that's the easy part.

You're mounting the 2nd tire bead (1st is already 100% done). You're to the last 25% of it that's not mounted. You're working on mounting from the right side with your thumbs - put a clamp on the LEFT side (on the braking surface), at the last spot where the tire is still fully mounted and engaged, to keep the tire from walking off the rim as you work on the right side.

I was going to shoot a short tubeless video this week, so I'll see if I can work this in to make it more clear.

That would be great. In my case, even getting the first bead over the rim and getting it to stay there took me a long time. Usually that’s easy but with the Hed/5000TL combo it’s not doable without using a tire bead jack, zip ties and if possible and extra pair of hands even.

I'm a tubeless convert and love the Conti GP5000TL tires......but your scenario would make me stick to tubes and a regular tire that is easier to mount. No way I'm getting stuck out in the middle of the boonies unable to fix a flat.
Maybe I'm still hanging onto old school mentality, but I still carry a spare tube and air for that just in case. Maybe running tubeless I should just be good carrying some air and a Tubeless Tire Plug tool and anything worse....just call home for a ride.

fyi........I thought the Schawalbe Pro Ones and Conti 5000TL were about equal to install/remove.

Just a quick heads-up, we have a new article on the home page about hooked vs hookless rims.

This was an interesting one to research, and it seems that there are some very different opinions and design philosophies among wheel manufacturers. In particular, it was notable that HED specifically left hooks on their Vanquish line for aerodynamic reasons, while ENVE seems to be going for more of a gravel / off-road / impact-resistance target with their latest AR wheels (note that their existing road-specific wheels use hooks... though all indications are that they're moving full-steam into hookless / tubeless / wide tires for the future). I also found it interesting that ENVE is taking a hard line on which tires aren't compatible, while Alto allows any tire - tubed or tubeless (under 100psi) - on their hookless road rims.

It's worth noting that, long ago, clinchers were generally hookless. Safety was ensured by not running high pressures; that most clincher tires were thick and stiff possibly also helped.

The main transition happened in the 1970s, probably encouraged by the wake of the US bike boom, and its massive spike of clincher-equipped road bikes.
A few cheap tires still come with colorful "HIGH PRESSURE" labels on their sidewalls, a cheery throwback and a grim omen that they'll roll like a sack of potatoes no matter how they're pumped.

I'm on the cusp of making the transition to tubeless . I was about to install GP5000TL 25mm on my HED Jet 6+ Front / Jet 9+ Front & Rear, Jet+ Disc rear wheels when I was reminded of Josh Poertner's "Rule of 105" (https://blog.silca.cc/...ure-and-aerodynamics).

In summary, this says that "the rim must be at least 105% the width of the tire". Rim width here means the widest part of the whole rim, not the width of the brake track.

My Jet6+ rims measure 27.5mm at the widest point. Dividing by 105% tells me that my tires should therefore be no wider than 26.2mm.

I believe that GP5000TL 25mm tires measure more like 26.5mm on these rims (possibly even wider because of the thicker casing than the tubed version). That's close, but it still violates the rule, and therefore probably isn't a good choice, especially as they grow with age.

I'm currently running GP4000SII 23mm, which come out at ~25mm on these rims - that's 109%, so comfortably on the right side of the rule.

So, a couple of questions:

1. Why doesn't Continental make a 23mm GP5000 TL? This would seem to be a perfect aero solution for these (and similar) rims. The 25mm looks like it may be too wide for good aerodynamic behaviour in gusty/high yaw conditions, and the 28mm will definitely not be a good answer (for these rims).
2. If GP5000 TL 25mm isn't the right answer for me, what is? The GP4000Sii had (for me) the perfect combination of aero/rolling resistance/puncture resistance. Andy Tetmeyer @ HED: what have you found to be the fastest in your testing?

This setup was addressed earlier in the thread - you can CTRL-F and search for GP5000 to find. Someone reported that they installed the GP5000 on Jet Plus and it measured 26.11. Note, however that they didn't specify if it was the tubeless version, and most tires stretch out over time and grow in width. When I've used tubed 25mm Conti GP4000's on those rims, they've always inflated to 28 - 28.5mm.

"Why doesn't Continental make a 23mm GP5000 TL?" My guess is that they saw how their sales were trending, and the market in general is trending, and made a business decision. Most decisions like this that don't make sense in the wind tunnel or engineering department are due to the accounting department. While aero is king in here, you'd be surprised at how little much of the market or manufacturers are concerned with it. Our recent home page article addressed a related issue of hooked vs hookless rims - leaving the hooks on pushes the tire width in a bit (to aid in aerodynamics), but the rim molds are more expensive and complex. Hookless rims can have other benefits, but it doesn't help with the Rule of 105.

If you want Andy @ Hed to get a notification of your questions, you'll need to reply to one of his posts - otherwise he may not find it (I'm not sure how closely he is watching/scanning this thread day-to-day).

Not sure the internal measure of your HED's, buy the Reynolds tubeless wheels I run measure 19 internal 28 external. Conti 5000TL 28's measure 28.5/28.6 after 2 weeks on the bike. The 5000TL are noted to measure only slightly larger than noted.

Current HED 'Plus' and Vanquish rims measure 21mm internal.

Thanks all.

To conclude on the aero thing (at least unless Andy T stops by).

27.5mm/26.11mm = 105.3%. So it's a FAIL on the 'rule of 105'.

So I may be better off with GP5000 with latex tubes.

But there's some debate whether the GP5000 loses some of its mystical aeroness attributed to the tread pattern.

So I may even be better off staying with my existing GP4000Sii!

They aren't HED wheels, but my ENVE SES 3.4 Disc wheels also have a 21mm internal width. On those, my 25mm Conti 4000SII tires inflated to a 29mm width. On the same wheels, my 25mm Conti 5000TL tires inflate to 27.5mm. ENVE's published specs for these wheels says they have an outside width of 27.5mm . . . but, when I measure them, they are actually a couple mm wider than that about 3/8" back from the rim. Using real world measurements, it appears the 25mm 5000TL's fit the formula on the ENVE wheelset.

To be fair, I don't know how much wiggle room there is in the rule of 105. It's likely not a hard cutoff at 105.000000% for all tires. But also keep in mind that tires do tend to grow over time, so that 26.11 might get larger.

It does look like they make the tubed version of the GP5000 in 23mm, which should be 'safer' in terms of the rule of 105. Perhaps Conti thought that the aero/tri crowd was mostly using latex tubes, which may have been part of why they started at 25mm for tubeless (since much of the tubeless crowd is trending wider and wider, with the growth of all-road, gravel, etc). I ride 28mm tires most of the time, since I'm not doing solo timed races anymore and I like the other benefits of bump absorption and grip.

Indeed, nor me. Though Josh Poertner's choice of words ("at least 105% the width of the tire if you have any chance of re-capturing airflow") suggests this is the outer edge of the range, rather than some middling figure.

A GP5000 tubed in 23mm might be worth it for lower Crr and being narrower than GP4000Sii making it a better fit to the rim.

Alright ladies and gents - we have some answers for you with this new video on the home page. I covered the previous questions about pouring sealant into the tire (how do you do it without making a mess?!) rather than injecting through the valve stem. Plus, at the end I showed exactly how I used the quick clamps to help install difficult tires - and without cracking any carbon fairings.

The video definitely ended up longer than expected, but that's because one tire installed perfectly and the other did not (I was only going to show installation of one tire originally). I also opted to give a fair bit of background, tips, etc... mostly to avoid answering a million questions in the video comments (which I make zero dollars from).

So, enjoy (or hate) 15 minutes of me talking about tubeless.

Greg, thanks a lot for posting the video! Very instructional but you got lucky with the wheel- tire combo. I looked at how you use the clamps carefully but I struggle to see how that would do any help with the Hed Jet and trying to get a Conti 5000 over it. The level of difficulty is way, way different than the Vision/Schwalbe and I can't see why the tire would not travel out of the rim underneath the clamp since there isn't any force holding the tire against the rim. Are you relying on the clamp faces being big enough and positioned partially sticking out to increase the path length over which the bead has to move to get undone? Note that the same issue already starts when trying to get the very first bead over the rim - would you place a clamp touching the rim on one side and pressing the open side of the tire (the one you're not trying to pull over the rim) against the rim on the other side?

Yes, the fit with that wheel and tire was easy. I don't have any super tight fitting combos on hand for the clamp demo.

I don't know if the clamps will help your situation. I've used them on much tighter tires and they've helped (which is how I discovered the solution in the first place). I also showed a larger clamp briefly in the video, which wasn't necessary for that particular wheel/tire, but has a larger contact area and more clamping force. In the past I've used some combination of clamps, thick tire levers, and sometimes a big tire jack: http://www.koolstop.com/...s/KS-TBJ%20IMAGE.jpg

In the end, you'll have to find a way or not use that wheel/tire combo.

 

“In the end, you'll have to find a way or not use that wheel/tire combo.” —> Correct, but this is where simple tools and tricks can make all the difference between getting it to work or giving up and I always believe somewhere somehow someone has it figured out already and if we can share our best practices chances are we’ll be able to overcome all those issues little by little.

I will try using clamps next time I need to do something with my tubeless wheels and maybe as I try it will find helpful ways too.

For me, when I set up my MTB to be tubeless the process was surprisingly easy and the ride quality improvement was much more than I had expected. On the road the setup is still a pain in the butt but my first ride already sold me on the technology as it felt so nice to ride.

FlashBazbo

How difficult was getting the 25mm Conti 5000TL onto your ENVE? In your opinion is it feasible to throw a tube in if you have a nasty flat that doesn't seal durning a race?

Cheers,

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Jan Vobecky

They weren't difficult. I made sure the bead was centered in the rim's central channel as far around as possible. Then I used very mild pressure with a set of plastic tire levers. I've had tubed clinchers that were more difficult to mount. I think it's perfectly feasible to install a tube during a race. Again, I've had non-tubeless clinchers that were a lot harder to mount.

Thanks!

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Jan Vobecky

for those who haven't seen it, there's a review of Schwalbe's new Pro One series on the home page. what i don't know yet is exactly how these tires are going to come out in the independent rolling resistance testing. however, my sense is that these are the new world beaters.

i'm predicting, for the 25mm Pro One, sub-8w on BRR @7 bar with a 10/5 puncture profile, which would make this the go-to tire i think.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan, after reading about your front page article; you got me thinking about converting to tubeless for my rim brake road bike which is primarily used for riding in the mountains. I use Hed Ardennes Black wheels and sometimes Bontrager Aeolus XXX 2. For the optimum set up, which tire would u recommend and what tire pressure? (I’m 135 pounds if that matters)

Thanks

If you've got any spares, I'm pretty sure you know someone who does that sort of testing ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

i'm not that good, yet, to answer that question. i've only got my personal experience, and not enough technical knowledge. i've run tubeless on the ardennes myself, great wheelset, assuming your ardennes are + then you've got 21mm internal bead diameter, 25mm external which, to me, argues for a 25mm or 28mm tire. if we're talking road. i've run 36mm gravel tires on that wheel and run them at about 35psi. i spose i'd run maybe 90psi for the 25s and 80 to 85psi for the 28s? but maybe tom a. and some others would be better to ask.

as for the aeolus, i've run aeolus 9s, but not tubeless. that was a very fast wheel for me, 9s front and rear. but i had to wash my bib twice to get the stripe out after every ride, because the wheel scared the spit out of me, even on the flats, when a truck passed me on the other side of the street going the other way. very fast wheel, but prone to stalls. never rode that wheel tubeless so can't say.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

i absolutely know someone. if i have any juice, i'll get you some sent out. i suspect we could make that work.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If you need some 5000TLs, just let me know

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

On my P5-6, I use Enve 7.8 and run the Corsa Speeds Gen1 in a 25mm. The key is I am height LIMITED to 22mm. The newer Gen 2 Corsa Speeds are 24mm as is the Conti 5000 in a 25mm tire.

Do you have any dimension info on the new Schwalbe Tires? I have a new set of ENVE coming this week and want to set them up tubeless.

Dan covered some of this in the home page article. More specifically, that the new tires will run true on a 19mm internal width rim (so they've effectively been downsized, similar to Conti's 5000). Most other tires on the market are sized for an old-school 13-15mm internal width rim.

I've rolled a regular GP5K (23C), but not a TL. Based on BRRs testing, I see that the TL is basically tied with the regular when using a latex tube in the latter...plus, it's actually available in a 23C for better aero (at no Crr hit vs. the 25C TL), whereas the narrowest TL is 25C.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

the wider the rim, the lower the tire. so that's one thing. otherwise, i don't have a spec for you. honestly, i've not concerned myself with the height of tires, on road bikes. so i don't know.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Not exactly...at least not in the range of tire sizes and rim internal widths normally talked about. Tires of a given "size" actually increase width AND height on a wider rim (since they're mimicking a larger, truncated diameter casing) until you get to an inflection point where incremental width increases start lowering the height (with the limit being zero height when the internal width equals the casing flat width).

I had to concern myself with tire height on my 1st gen Cervelo S5 or they would rub on the fork crown and the rear wheel cutout. The worst offenders were the old GP4Ks, which not only measured oversize in regards to width, but also "tall" due to the parabolic shape of the tread mold. So...it can be a "thing" ;-)

As an example, here are a couple of quick views I did of a schematic tire/rim cross-section for the case of a tire that measures 25mm across on a 13mm internal width rim. The arc length (64.87mm) of the tire is constant. Observe what happens to both the tire width AND the tire height (above the brake track) as the rim internal width is increased to 17mm, 19mm, and then 21mm. Now, to be fair, the fact that the last 2 pics (19 and 21mm) show little change (especially as compared to the 17mm) in height means that this combo is approaching that inflection point where the height begins decreasing.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Obviously not Dan. But have 6-7 years of road tubeless experience, which I think is more direct experience than he has. :)

Right now, excluding the new Schwalbe lineup for lack of experience with them, the GP5000TL is the best jack-of-all-trades. And mediocre at none.

It's fast at Crr and aero. It's got great grip. So far it's seemed very durable, and I've heard no other reports that it's not.

The one problem you might have on your rims is mounting ease. I'd put it towards the harder end of the spectrum for mounting.

If you want something that's still pretty good at everything, but is easier to mount - try the Hutchinson Fusion 5. It's also very good at everything.

I can't wait to try out these Schwalbes, though.

I think I will have to wait this one out. Last year I built up a Domane and spec'd it with Aeolus Pro 3's for disc. Got the Pro One's (28mm) for it in mid-2018, and had the worst nightmare imaginable mounting them--so crazy tight! I could only imagine if I were to get a catastrophic flat somewhere.


However, they rode really well for about the first two months. Then I went to ride it one morning, and found it wouldn't inflate to more than 40 psi (The Stans was not sealing) leaking sealant/air. Couldn't figure it out. Took it to a bike mechanic, and we tried shaking the sealant around--no difference.


That was it. The end of my marriage to road tubeless (Love my mtb tubeless)!


IDK, maybe the new Pro One improvements will eliminate the issues I had.

Not necessarily. That eventually becomes true if you try to go ultra-ultra-ultra-wide, but is often not the case when comparing typical setups. Height doesn't tend to change very much with tire width, and sometimes tires can get taller as rims get wider.

A (simplistic) way to visualize what's going on is to imagine that you've got a tire that always inflates to a perfectly round profile. Suppose you've got a rim with an internal width of zero, squeezing the tire's beads together. This causes the tire to form a complete circle:



Now imagine a second rim, where the internal width is equal to twice the diameter that the tire has on the zero-width rim. Now we have this:



The tire is now half of a circle with twice the diameter than before; the circumference has doubled, but the tire only exists across half of the new circle's circumference. The radius is the same as the old circle's diameter, so the inflated height is equal.

the biggest impediment to tubless - road or otherwise - is the lack of uniformity among wheel makers, which cause tires to fit well or badly. i'm open to hearing contrary views on this but i think some wheel makers in the US, who aren't as closely attached to ETRTO, have made their rims slightly bigger and tire makers who adhere to ETRTO fit tighter. i also think some wheel makers, not necessarily bontrager, in the early days of road tubeless, who're making carbon rims, aero rims, made their rims slightly on the big side to guarantee no blow offs.

i do think the gap has closed on some of this. the new pro ones are slightly bigger. carbon wheel making has gotten more precise. if you can't hand roll a new pro one over a rim (other than an open mold asian carbon rim), i'm hoping that would be the rare case.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for the great graphics! See also: THIS.

;)

I'm all-in for gravel and road tubeless, but I have a question. Especially in the winter, I will have one bike that doesn't see a lot of miles. I might take it out two or three times per month in the winter. I'm hesitant to leave it tubeless as it sits so much. I'm concerned the sealant will congeal and become leaky and out of balance. Is there a way to preserve the readiness of tubeless tires to inflate-and-go after prolonged storage? Or does it make better sense to convert that bike back to tubes for the winter months?

In my experience, 2-3 rides per month are enough to keep tubeless setups happy. If you were riding the bike 2-3 times over the entire winter (or not at all), that could be an issue.

The biggest risk with letting tubeless tires sit for a long time is that they'll fully deflate and you'll lose the tubeless seal between tire and rim (which also depends on how tightly they fit together... some can keep the seal). If the tires fit loosely, you'll need an air compressor or CO2 to re-seat them. When I'm storing tubeless wheels, I'll pump them up to a high-ish pressure (but not beyond the maximum) to help prevent this. I try to check them for pressure at least once per month, and also give them a good shake/spin at that time, to move the sealant around.

This is also what ultimately led me to not run tubeless on some bikes, like my fat bike. It would go unridden for months at a time, and I'd spend more time maintaining it than riding it (not to mention the only wheels I could reasonably afford weren't tubeless-ready and would require a fairly involved conversion process). Tubeless can save a lot of weight on fat bikes, but for what I was doing it wasn't worth the hassle. Plus I think I've only had one flat ever with inner tubes on a fat bike.

...that and the fact that it's a PITA!

thank you. we have the hardest time convincing people that a wider rim will indeed make a tire taller.

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Andy Tetmeyer (I work at HED)

I put the Bontrager R3 tubeless on my Pro5’s and it took 2 of us. On the positive side, not 1 flat in 13 months. Now it’s time for a new set. Maybe I’ll try the ProOne’s

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

i learned something out of this discussion i did not know. i'm now .003 percent smarter than i was ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yeah...for bikes and/or wheels that I don't use often (as in at least once per week), I stick with latex tubes. That's why my MTB isn't set up tubeless.

Just last week I removed a tire that was set up tubeless from one of my gravel wheels...I'd only let it set for ~1-2 weeks, and the sealant had already formed a congealed puddle on the down side (Orange Seal in a Challenge Gravel Grinder Pro)...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

My experience hasn't been as positive as yours. I left a gravel bike tubeless setup (Orange Seal Endurance formula) for two weeks and, at the end of the two weeks, I had large congealed patches sticking to the insides of both tires. The congealed sealant was at the bottom and in the shape of puddles. There was still liquid sealant in both tires, but a lot of it had congealed into a solid "puddle" that was stuck to the inside of the tire.

Interesting. Both you and Tom were using Orange Seal, which I haven't used for any significant length of time on a personal bike. I've heard from reputable sources that their current formula seals better than just about anything out there, but that it also dries out more quickly than other sealants (and needs to have sealant added more often). The experiences you and Tom mention line up with this, but I suppose I hadn't foreseen that it would become a solid 'puddle' in the tire. Usually for me, sealant just tends to 'disappear', or sometimes form in to some loose chunks that roll around in the tire.

EDIT: I thought that the "Endurance" formula from them was supposed to be the answer to the criticisms that the original dried out too quickly. It's tough... the sealants that seem to fix punctures best also seem to dry out super quick and/or clog up presta valves. I had to quit using Conti Revo sealant because it glued so many of my valve cores. Got tired of replacing them.

Assuming you opt for a decent, brand new tyre, (GP5000 OR Schwalbe One Pro, etc) with plenty of good quality sealant...what would you take with you for an Ironman in the way of 'spares'..? I'm thinking just a Dynaplug Racer and some CO2..?

For an Ironman, I'd definitely still take a spare tube, CO2, tire boot, levers, etc - in addition to a small plug kit. I'd likely do a larger 20 ounce CO2, with an inflator that could be closed/saved after partial use - like my very old Silca threaded CO2 inflator (in case I had to use it more than once to top off a tire again). That IM day is too long and way too expensive for me to even consider saving 100 grams by skipping a tube.

fair point...but I have no idea how I could ever be able to get the tyre off at the roadside.. It took 2 mechanics half an hour to get them on last time..! (admittedly they were 23mm corsa speeds which are notoriously tight.)

If the tire fits that tight, you could certainly make an argument that it's not worth carrying a spare tube. Personally, I wouldn't use a wheel/tire combo that fits that tight. A plug/CO2 is probably the way to go.

Bingo!

I'm hoping that 25mm GP5000s wont be quite so traumatic..!

I've been running 25mm GP5000TL since their release and more recently 28mm. My experience so far is that once you get a system down to mount the tires the supposed "hassle" is worth it.

Currently running:

25mm on Reynolds Attack wheels (17mm internal) and the tape and valves pre-installed by Reynolds. These took a few minutes to mount with Silca levers but so do regular clinchers on this rim. Mounted with floor pump and then injected 1oz of Muc-Off Tubeless sealant in each tire. 2000 miles, zero flats, 1 tiny nail pulled out when home and it sealed up immediately, a few nicks and cuts but can't see any sealant on the outside even with the UV light supplied by Muc-off.

28mm on Reynolds AR41x (21mm internal) with tape and valves by Reynolds. Mounted tires with bare hands, though I did need to use my chamber pump on one tire to get it to seat. Same protocol with the Muc-Off and only been running them about 200 miles but no issues.

I do have some questions about "best practices" though. Tires matter, rims matter, sealant matters, what about rim tape? does it make sense next tire install to go the extra mile and get the Silca tape, stans tape or another version? What about tubeless valves? Again, does the Silca system work better? I'm interested in the Mil-kit system of valves but the price seems a bit steep but there do seem to be some advantages over standard valves.

I haven't used the Silca tape, so I can't comment on it. I've used tubeless tape from Stan's, HED, and Vision Tech (FSA), which all seemed to be the exact same stuff material-wise. Stan's has always made a couple width options for their various rims. All work very well and are my go-to style of tape. Per my installation video, I install an inner tube with the tire and pump it up overnight before installing sealant, to make sure that the adhesive is all the way stuck down.

I've also used the blue American Classic tape, which didn't seem as good. The adhesive layer started to separate from the backing part of the tape, and the tape got all rolled up at the edges, and basically fell apart.

I've never used the MilKit system. I always use whatever valves come with the wheels, since they're often specific to that rim shape. For example, a DT Swiss tubeless valve is shaped different than a Bontrager one, which is different than a Stan's valve. Pretty much all modern tubeless valves have removable cores, and I'll inject sealant using the small pre-measured bottles (i.e. Stan's, Schwalbe Doc Blue), or an injector. The MilKit setup looks pretty slick and you can really dial in an exact amount of sealant, but I'm just not that picky. Looks like it's designed to work with rims that take the "universal" style tubeless valve, which is the round Stan's style.

(To all):

We just posted a new home page article relevant to this tubeless discussion, about tire pressure and Crr (rolling resistance). The original article was actually intended as a tire pressure guide of sorts (referencing our recent tire pressure poll, and the same poll ran in early 2017). However, in the process of writing, it became apparent that there was just too much info on rolling resistance that had to be covered first. In other words, Crr is too complicated to explain in a paragraph or two as part of a tire pressure article. So, I split it up into two different articles, and the second should be out later this week (the one that's actually about determining your best tire pressure).

Now, I want to be clear that my article today would not have been possible without the assistance of great resources like Tom A, Al Morrison, and Silca / Josh P. I link back to an article on the Silca blog which goes in to great length and detail on Crr and Impedance. If you've read any of my stuff, you'll know that I'm typically trying to take really complicated topics and 'detune' them a bit to be understood by a wider audience while still being accurate. You know, analogies and blah blah blah... hopefully the article helps at least some of you ;)

That doesn't explain the full picture. You can cause a stiff slow tire to give way to your thumb just as far as a supple tire by pumping it to a lower pressure, yet this causes hysteresis losses to go up.

When two tires are pumped to similar thumb-squishiness, the thing that makes the supple tire faster is that less of the deformation is taken up by lossy tire elements, and more energy gets returned to forward motion when the tire rebounds.

That's the best I could do in terms on an analogy that'd be super tangible for a non-technical person. Fail! ;) If you can come up with something better and equally bite-size, I'm more than open to suggestions.

EDIT: I ended up adding a clarifying sentence, along with a link to the article Tom mentioned a few posts down from here.

P.S. Any time I mention the words "rolling resistance" in an article or forum post, I feel like I'm walking into a lion's den of killers with a steak tied around my neck ;D

Don't forget to link to that previous ST article on Crr from back in 2007 which explains the source of it a bit as well: https://www.slowtwitch.com/...ling_events_226.html

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Thanks - I'll toss a link in later today!

We just published our second article (the first being the rolling resistance piece), covering the factors to consider to arrive at your best tire pressure. The HED chart shown is my go-to baseline for setting pressure, and then I adjust from there based on all of the other factors mentioned in the article (i.e. road surface conditions, rider weight, etc). The only caveat is that the HED chart is effectively off one tire size compared to actual inflated size (i.e. what they're listing as a 23mm tire inflates to an actual 25-26mm on their wide rims... so that's akin to using an actual 25-26mm tire on a skinny rim).

Not sure where best to comment on the article. One thing I noticed that should at least be considered when choosing pressures for road bikes is that the weight distribution is not static and while rear heavy, is shifted to the front of the bike when it is most critical ie during hard braking and turning where a pressure set based on a lower fraction of the weight may lead to a critical rollover or unwanted carcass flex. I used to run much lower front pressure based on that ROT, but had a scary incident with that(maybe too low of pressure even without a bias) and have since started running equal pressures

Interesting. Never really heard of that. I don't do a big difference front/rear... usually about 2-3%.

I don't base my front/rear pressure difference off of static weight distribution, for exactly what is mentioned by redlude97, i.e. weight transfer under braking/turning. I'm pretty sure that's what Josh P. does as well...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I'm afraid I answered my own question from two weeks ago. I dismounted the tubeless tires on my gravel bike. The bike had been completely idle for only three weeks, but I had been out on it sporadically for maybe a month before that. About once a week I would spin the wheels in hopes of keeping the sealant doing its thing. Both tires were installed and topped up the same way at the same times -- the last top-up was about 9 weeks ago. When I opened them up, the front tire was completely dry and had the characteristic congealed solid "puddle" at the bottom of the tire. The rear tire had some light congealing at the bottom, but still had some liquid sealant. (Orange Seal Endurance) The inside of the rear was coated evenly, but had one "booger" where the sealant had sealed a puncture I was unaware of. The big deal, though, was trying to pry the beads off the Mavic UST rims. Absolutely brutal. I ended up having to clamp the tires in a vise and pry the wheels off the beads.

The experience convinced me to convert my gravel bike back to tubes for the winter. When the spring gravel season starts, I will go back to tubeless for the races.

What am I doing wrong?

I'm on my 4th (fourth!!) attempt to run a tubeless setup on my Cervelo S5, with Conti GP5000TL on Mavic Cosmic Elite UST wheels. The tyre inflates properly with little effort, seat properly and seem to seal around the rim. I can't hear any hissing, but the tyre deflates slowly overnight. This only happens with the rear wheel - the front sealed first time and has been problem free. And other tubeless wheels I own have been easy to set up. So hopefully I'm trying to do this correctly!

I've tried the originally installed Mavic tubeless rim tape, and 3 attempts with others. I've installed the tape and then left it overnight with an inner tube inside to help the tape adhesive bond to the rim.

I'm using the Mavic shaped valves which are designed specifically to match the centre channel on the rim.

I'm using 18mm tubeless specific rim tape which fits neatly into the rim. The rims have a specified 17mm internal width, but that's between the outer edges of the braking surface, not the tyre bed, which is slightly wider.

There's plenty of sealant in the tyre (40ml), and I'm shaking/bouncing/riding the tyre in every orientation to ensure it's available at all possible leaking points.

I *think* what's happening is that imperfections in the rim surface (there are a couple) make it impossible for the rim tape to stick properly, and the air/sealant just sneaks underneath at these points, leaking into the interior of the rim - there's no leaking sealant visible externally.

Any ideas for what else I could do?

Or should I simply return the wheel to the vendor, on the basis that it doesn't perform as advertised.

Try spraying some soapy water on it and watch for where it bubbles. If it's through the rim this might be trickier but you might find out if it's coming from a spoke hole (assuming they're all soaped), you just won't know which outer rim hole.

I think your guess on imperfect rim surface is right. I had ~the same experience recently, and LBS agreed it was likely imperfect rim surface.

But I was actually able to locate a very low hissing sound from an area of the rim. That area didnt change regardless of many tries of reinstalling.

Thanks for the report. I'm wondering if this is an Orange Seal Endurance thing, because I can't recall any reports of other sealants doing this (but it could be a problem of sample size, too). Some seem to evaporate or congeal differently... Hutchinson sealant became like an evenly distributed (but mostly dry) tacky glue. I've had Bontrager TLR go bad and congeal in the bottles (later to learn that they have a 1-year recommended shelf life), but in my MTB tires it pretty much seemed to evaporate with no mess or puddles... and I didn't ride that bike very frequently. I've also run sealants in inner tubes quite a bit, so I can't see its condition unless I cut the tube open.

I haven't used any of the recent Mavic road UST stuff, but this is my best educated guess (having used a bunch of other tubeless stuff).

1. In general, I see a higher leak-down rate of tubeless tires compared to (butyl) inner tubes. So there's a little bit of this that's going to happen... but not as fast as you're experiencing.

2. When you say it deflates overnight - are the tire beads staying seated in place? As in, they're not coming undone and unlocking past the bead shelves? The reason I ask this is that I'm wondering if they aren't getting fully seated in the first place.

3. MTB UST stuff always worked best when you used a UST tire + UST rim. Things could get wonky when you deviated. For example, I had a UST gravel tire bead catastrophically fail during inflation on a Stan's rim (which are more intended to be used with tube-type tires converted to tubeless, or "tubeless-ready" tires). And I've definitely seen reports of non-UST MTB tires not seating or sealing as well on UST rims. UST was conceived as a system, whereas a lot of the tubeless-ready stuff is a little more 'wild west'. I've heard that their road UST tires and rims work really well when used together.

4. How tightly do those tires fit on those rims? It seems possible that they're too loose, and you may need to build up additional layers of tubeless tape.

5. Did you tighten down the valve stem a lot, and use an o-ring under the locknut on the inner side of the rim? Are you sure that the hole you cut in the tape for the valve stem hasn't grown, or that the tape hasn't split around this area? I've seen this result in leaks. My tubeless installation video shows the details of how I cut valve holes, and talks about tightening down the lock nut sufficiently.

6. What sealant are you using, and how old is it?

7. It's possible that your tape is leaking, as you mentioned. I've had the best luck with Stan's tape (and Hed, and Vision Tech, which seem to be identical). You can remove the tape, clean the rim with alcohol, let it dry, and install fresh tape (TIGHTLY), install inner tubes, and pump to max pressure overnight. This has always worked for me. Old-school tubular folks would lightly sand aluminum rim surfaces to roughen them up for better adhesion... though I'm sure this would void your warranty if you did it to your rims.

Greg, I thought all UST tubeless rims lacked spoke holes (mine all do). I thought part of the UST spec was a hole-less rim channel that requires no rim tape. Am I mistaken?

That's a good point. I know that was true at least in the MTB days. You didn't need tubeless tape when using UST tires... but sometimes you did need tape with "tubeless-ready" tires (non-UST), because they didn't always fit as well, so sometimes you have to build up the rim bed with tape.

And that could be what's going on here, too. The Conti 5000 isn't UST. I wouldn't see tape hurting the situation unless it made the tire/rim fit too tight, which could keep the tire beads from completely snapping up into place on the bead shelves.

Have you tried putting the front tire on the rear to eliminate a possible tire issue variable?

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24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

I want to run Tubeless this year for Kona, what tires rim tape and sealant would be best for typical Kona conditions?

I have ENVE 7.8 and have used Corsa Speed tires and latex tubes.... been lucky - no flat issues. Recently I have flatted in same setup with slow leak flats.... so figure I will try Tubeless. My first attempt installing G2 Corsa Speed I used Stans Tape and sealant. Tape had been on with tube before and the front leaked at spoke holes where tape became porous. I retapped with the 3M 8898 blue tape two layers... no problem now. Will redo rear tonight. I am also interested in the new Schwable Pro Ones. Maybe they are slower but better flat protection?

Unless somebody knows something I don't, there's nothing special about conditions in Kona that would change your tubeless setup or sealant choice. You generally want to avoid using more than one type of sealant in a wheel/tire (unless you clean the wheel and tire *thoroughly*... to avoid coagulation, or other problems when non-compatible sealants mix).

ENVE has their own tubeless tape (and valves), which is where I would personally start. They also have tubeless instructions here. I've never used that 3M tape, and have had the best luck in general with Stan's or similar. I avoid tapes that aren't specifically sold as being for tubeless bicycle tires, because things usually didn't go well in the old days using non-bicycle rim tape for inner tubes (i.e. electrical tape is a no-no).

I always make sure that the rim bed is totally clean and dry, and then I install tape with inner tubes and tires overnight to make sure it's stuck down. I also make sure to have enough overlap in the tape, as discussed in this video. If the tires fit too loose and are leaking down because of that, I'll re-do the tape with additional layers as needed.

I haven't used the newest Pro Ones (I'm on the pre-2020 model now), nor the Corsa Speed, but every report I've seen suggests that the Corsa Speeds are very flat prone i.e. more than the Schwalbes.

thanks Greg, are we at a point where a tire being more flat prone is now mitigated by sealant ie Pro One and Corsa Speed are now equivalent flat protection.... as opposed to using a inner tube? My assumption is sealant will Seal most punctures

Specifications for non-proprietary tubeless rim tapes would be a really useful contribution to this forum. The wheel manufacturers’ branded tapes are ~10x the price of the 3M product mentioned above, and I’d speculate there’s nothing particularly special about them.

So, does anyone know what these rim tapes are made from, and how thick the material is?
What about the adhesives used?

In my experience, we are not there, and unless something dramatic changes with sealant or tire technology, it's not something that will happen. I wrote about it here (and probably elsewhere).

Specifically: "That said, just because you have tubeless tires and sealant does not mean that you’re immune to flat tires. In fact, many of the new tubeless road tires are being made thinner and thinner on a quest for faster rolling resistance numbers. Translation: some tubeless tires, despite having sealant, are more fragile than the regular clincher tire/tube setups. Sealant can’t fix large cuts, and thin casings don’t hold their shape very well (which makes sealants less effective). It seems there is no free lunch to be had when it comes to sealants."

Say you have an object on the road that is large and sharp enough to puncture a tread that's 2mm thick, but not one that's 3mm thick. Of course, I'm ignoring puncture breaker materials for the sake of this example, which won't necessarily all function the same. If you hit that object on the thinner tire, you puncture, and the sealant has to seal the hole - which isn't a guarantee. On the thicker tire, it just rolls over the object, doesn't puncture, and you keep riding.

This applies to both tubeless and inner tubes. Beefier tires are just less flat prone, period. That doesn't mean that they'll avoid all flats, or that there aren't applications for thinner and faster tires. It means that there's a place for all of these products, and it's up to the user to pick the best one for their needs and risk tolerance. Also, sealants have improved a decent amount over the last 15 years or so, but it'll take a big leap to really change the situation.

I use Gorilla tape on all my wheels.

I think the Gravel and MB community have figured out that the 3M tape works and perhaps is the same as the so called proprietary tape.... I bought a role for $7 and is enough to last me 10 wheels....

Hey all - just a heads up that we released a new video on the home page. It's a follow-up to the previous video, which showed how to install sealant by pouring it into the tire. Today's video shows how to inject sealant using the system from KOM Cycling. Note that it will also work with inner tubes, provided that the valve stems have removable cores. It's pretty slick, and is my new favorite method for installing sealant.

I'm working on a separate video showing tire installation on the DT Swiss Arc 1100 wheels you see in the background of this video.

Thanks for posting this. I'd like to go tubeless and am trying to "get lucky" and have the tire catch on what is technically not a tubeless wheel. Maybe it's time to just switch wheels to ones that are meant to be tubeless. I'm wondering if anyone else has tried to use non-tubeless for a tubeless setup with success.

Lots of people have.

Been using the same KOM injector, it's been so easy to use I could not understand why you were making things so hard previously. It's super easy, super clean, very cheap, just rinse it with warm water after each use.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you wondering why I was using a different style injector previously and/or pouring sealant into the tire?

In the early days of tubeless, there were years and years of this... which is what birthed Stan's NoTubes rims, rim strip conversions, tape, etc... which led to a host of other conversion products from other companies. This all led to the current state of at least half of all new wheels being tubeless-ready.

Personally, there are just too many good products today that are much more turn-key than the old conversions, for me to ever want to mess with the conversion science experiment of various layers of tape, rubber strips, etc. I'm also a lot more wary of one-off conversions for road tubeless (vs MTB tubeless) just because of the high tire pressures involved.

Pouring sealant into the tire. It seems like so much more likely to create a mess for no real reason.

The video is perfect for this old guy going the tubeless route for the first time. What I don't know is if one needs to re-install the "straw" and suck out the sealant every three or four months before adding a new 45 ml injection?

I mean, it's not that hard especially if you're doing it on the first installation of the tire, and it doesn't make a mess if done properly. Is that my default way of installing sealant? No, because injectors are easier. But not all valves have removable cores, like some Shimano tubeless valves I used a few years ago - and then you either need Caffelatex and their injector, or to pour it straight in the tire.

The real reason I made the first video (about pouring the sealant in) is because people had asked me about how you do it without a mess, and it's my job to explain things. Doesn't mean that it's something I'm personally advocating, especially if you already own an injector that you're happy with.

Nope - just add more sealant (and make sure that you're not mixing different brands of sealant).

That said, isn't a bad idea is to suck out the remaining sealant momentarily, just to check and see how much is left in there. If you originally installed 50ml, and now you're down to 30ml, you know exactly how much you should add. But it's not that you need to remove and discard old sealant.

Greg,
I'm going to address the question to you since it is kind of your thread and you have taken the lead on this. Have you ever made your own sealant or know anyone that does? I came across a recipe on mtbr a few years back and decided to try it since I am always looking for stuff on the cheap. It has worked out great, been very inexpensive and you can buy all of it in bulk. I've used it in both road and gravel/all-road applications and have pretty much become a tubeless convert because it is so convenient. I keep a sealed jar and when I check an old tire that has dried out a bit (very common in the hot summer here) I just use a kitchen spatula/scraper, put the thick stuff back in my jar, mix it up, add a bit more liquid for the right consistency and pour it back in. As I have read about many people's complaints on this thread, I have wondered if the hassle/cost of sealant does not prevent a major obstacle.
Chad

I've seen a few recipes over the years (probably the same stuff you saw on MTBR), but I've never made it myself. Mostly just because I've been given enough sealant to try, that I never ran out or needed to go spend money to make my own. If you're happy with your results, I'd say run with it! Everyone I know that runs tubeless just buys off-the-shelf from the major brands.

Anyone using the newish mucoff sealant? They started selling it at REI so I'm giving it a try but haven't been that enthusiastic, its thicker than stans/orangeseal so it coats the inside of the tire more but is harder to check the levels because it doesn't pool at the bottom. Doesn't dry as much IME but I've had a puncture not stay sealed consistently with it either, may just be a fluke but seeing what others experience are

Not I.

Hey all - we put a new article on the home page reviewing the DT Swiss ARC 1100 DICUT 62. This includes a video of tire installation, to show how tight the tires were. I used 25mm Pro Ones (2019 model, not the new one with the orange label). They were tight, but I got 'em on.

I was hoping to find an easier answer to this question: what tubeless tire should I run this winter? My climate is relatively mild, but I want to decrease my flat potential when it is near freezing. I'll still be training hard and going for the occasional spirited group ride, and I'm definitely not looking for the tubeless equivalent of a gatorskin. This chart makes it look like my go to winter tire is going to be the same as my go to summer tire... GP 5000TL

Any tips on air travel with tubeless, optimal pressure? About to pack for a flight and hope to arrive without a pool of sealant in my bike travel case. Thanks

In that crop of tires in your image, and based on your priority of least flat risk, I think the GP 5000 TL is the best choice (however, I have no idea what their puncture testing protocol is). It also depends on what tire size you're planning to run... I was going to say the Hutchinson Sector 28 would be a good option, but I don't know if your bike can fit 28's. They also have the Intensive in a variety of sizes, which I understand to be somewhere in that middle zone of durable and not super slow... but I'm not super up-to-date on it. Been trying to get some answers to technical questions from Hutchinson for several months now.

The #1 tip is to use a bike box that doesn't require you to completely deflate your tires to fit inside. I had a case that was very compact for my S&S coupler bike, but I had to basically make the tires totally flat - which could result in the tires becoming unseated and sealant spilling out in the box (which is why I never used tubeless on that bike). In the case of a larger bike box, I let about 40% of the air out to be safe pressure-wise, but also not lose the tire seating.

Other than that, if I was flying with tubeless, I'd bring a small (unopened) bottle of whatever sealant brand I was using, along with a valve core removal tool.

New tubeless-related review on the home page - the ENVE SES AR 3.4. These are tubeless-ONLY wheels due to the hookless design, and I included a 5-minute video showing the tire fit. The whole setup came on a complete bike that I'm testing, with tires and sealant already installed... so to test the tire fit I removed the sealant and one of the beads. The bike came with 28mm Pro Ones, which installed very easily, but required compressed air for inflation. Definitely could install a spare tube on the side of the road.

Greg -- You seem to have experience with the new HED Vanquish wheels. I'm thinking about getting them on for my next rig. How difficult is mounting the GP5K TL on the Vanquish? It was damn near impossible on my ENVE 5.6s -- literally broke multiple tire levels and resorted to a bead jack and heavy shop gloves to grip tire. Can't imagine doing having to insert an emergency tube in there if a bacon strip didn't seal.

I've never used the Vanquish wheels. Just their alloy rims (i.e. Jet, Jet Plus, Ardennes Plus, skinny H3). During that time I ran tubes for most setups - except I had some Ardennes on a mountain bike with Maxxis Ardent 29x2.4 TLR tires, which set up really nicely. Mounted up with little hassle and inflated with a floor pump.

Just made the jump to road tubeless. I normally ride HED Jet 6 wheels with Conti GP 4000 tires, and I was due to put new tires on my bike. With some good deals on last year’s Schwalbe Pro 1 tubeless tires available, it really was only an additional cost of $35 for Orange Seal Valve Stems and Stan’s tire sealant to see for myself if tubeless is worth it.

First, thanks to Greg K and the helpful information and videos. Getting the last 6 inches of tire bead onto the rim is hard! I struggled for quite a while on the front tire, but using the clamp method and a sturdy tire lever I was able to quickly get the rear tire on the rim. My first surprise came with inflation. The bead of the tire seated easily on the rim with only a couple of quick pumps of a standard floor pump. The second surprise was that the front tire maintained pressure w/o any sealant. The rear tire slowly leaked to soft over a 12 hr period. I pulled the valve cores, put in the Stan’s sealant, re-inflated and both tires hold pressure nicely.

I have a few hundred miles on the tires now, running them at 80 psi (the roads here in Florida are pretty good). I weigh 175 lbs. Since I can’t tell the difference between a $50 bottle of wine and a $8, I doubted I would notice much difference in feel between tubeless and tubes. Well, I was wrong. They feel different, and my average speed seems a little faster.

The big selling point for me will be puncture resistance. Are the Schwalbe Pro 1’s as puncture resistant as the Conti GP4000’s? When they do puncture, will the sealant seal the puncture w/o significant loss of psi? Only time will tell, but for now I am glad I gave road tubeless a try.

Glad to help, and good to know that my articles and videos aren't going out into the ether with nobody seeing them!

As for puncture resistance, it's hard to say. I've ridden Conti GP 4000's quite a lot, and I'm currently riding Schwalbe Pro Ones on three different bikes (though one is a test bike that will be back in a box and shipped away soon). I honestly can't remember the last time I flatted on any bike... I live in Florida too, and the roads here are crazy good compared to every other state I've lived in. Historically, I've had most of my road bike flats on handmade cotton tires. So personally, I can't really give you a verdict. I believe the Conti tread is a bit thicker, which suggests a bit better puncture protection - but I have no data to back it up.

Pressure loss - all depends on the size/type of puncture. Larger tires and lower pressure help the chance of sealing (i.e. a 28mm tire will have an easier time than a 23mm tire). I've had a 23mm tire "seal", but when you pump it back up to operating pressure, it started leaking again (the sealant couldn't hold at the high pressure). Your best bet is to make sure you have enough sealant in the tire - it will dry out over time and you need to add more. And shake the sealant well to be sure you're mixing up the particles evenly.

Maybe I should do a puncture test before I send my test bike back? ;) I swear, I was just ridin' along, and the tire magically got a big hole in it...

To no one in particular, just thought I would share my experience with my latest setup:
Wheels - Hed Jet 6 Black
Tires - Schwalbe new Pro one 2020 tubeless 25mm
Valves - Silca 80 mm tubeless with speedshield. The speedshield is key if you are trying to set up a pair of Hed Jets tubeless, IMO.
Sealant - Stans regular
Tape - Silca Tubeless 25mm

Tires went on without the use of any tools or levers, they were by no means easy though. I wouldn't love having to put a tube in there on the side of a road during a race, but it would be doable. The funny part was the first bead was actually harder to get on than the second bead. Well ok maybe not harder, but probably the hardest 'first bead' I have ever experienced. Setting the second bead took a minute or two just working it back and forth and making sure it was in the channel. Basically just had to muscle the last couple inches of tire bead on the rim, lever probably would have made it easier but wanted to see if I could get it done without a tool. It was nice not having to worry about pinching a tube in there. On the side of a road, if you had to insert a tube, those last couple inches would be a little more of a pain, since you have to be a little more delicate with the tube.

Anyways - got them both on, aired up with compressor, no really loud pings or pops, just kinda seated themselves. Took out the valve to add sealant and one of the beads would come undone. Tried this a couple times, letting the air out very slowly, but couldnt get both sides to stay in. Added the sealant with injector anyways, aired them back up, didnt have a drop of sealant anywhere and everything seated up nicely again. Everything seemed to hold up good overnight.

Tires measured out to 27mm, although that is probably at something close to 100 psi, which I would never run that high on these tires and rims, just kinda threw that much in there when I was setting them up.

Not that any of those is news breaking, but yes, HED jets are able to set up tubeless with the right stuff.

Oh also forgot to add that this was my first time using a heat gun on tubeless tape (i have probably set up a dozen or so wheel sets tubeless before this), what a game changer! Adding just enough heat to really seal the edges down and help with the bubbles resulted in the cleanest, least bubbly, tape job i have ever seen. go pick up the cheap 13 dollar one at Harbor Freight.

Thanks for the report. The Jet Plus and Jet Black stuff has been using a tubeless inner rim profile for some time now, but I've only used them with MTB tires (on an Ardennes Plus... same rim). Interesting to see that inflated tire size (27mm)... I haven't seen many actual inflated sizes since Schwalbe re-did their sizing (the 2020 Pro One is supposed to inflate true-to-size on a 19mm inner rim width, vs 15mm for the older stuff). I've used a bunch of older tubed 25mm tires on Hed Plus rims, and they typically inflate to 28-29mm.

Just curious - did you attempt to inflate with a floor pump, or did you go straight to the air compressor?

straight to compressor. I have one in my garage that I use all the time for other stuff, its just too easy!

This setup (Jet6 plus + 25mm tyres) illustrates where I’m getting stuck. If the tyre measures 27mm, then it violates Josh Poertner’s “rule of 105” (google it) on Jet+ rims, suggesting it will be aerodynamically compromised in moderate to high yaw conditions.

I’ve reluctantly come to accept that 23mm tyres (measuring 25mm on these rims) with latex tubes, may well be the best aero/rolling resistance/hassle compromise for these wheels.

What are people doing during the winter with their tubeless wheels/tires? I live in a place with snow and a true winter, so there is a solid 3 month period where outside riding is rare. From my understanding if the wheels are in the garage sitting unused the sealant will dry up. Are people removing the sealant and then putting in fresh stuff in the spring? Or just leave it in there and let it cake up and clean it up in the spring? Go out and spin the wheels by hand a couple times a week to keep things from drying out?

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Matt

Agree...it should be the actual size of tire that matters...not what is printed on the tire...imo

I am going to take my sealant out. Then remount the tires. Then I can just add sealant through the stem this spring. Last year I took the tires off the rim for the winter and had a tough time remounting them the following spring.

We've already discussed winter-related issues a fair bit - you can display all pages of the thread on one page (at the bottom-left of the main forum page), and CTRL-F to search for 'winter'.

Long story short - all of the above. Tubeless tires tend to leak down faster than (butyl) tubed tires, so you need to pump them up every few weeks, and give them a spin to mix the sealant. Yes, the sealant will dry out. You can remove it, but that will also put you at more risk for losing the tubeless seal.

I'd just pump them up and spin them periodically, inject more sealant every ~4 months, and completely remove the tires annually to clean them out.

Not being a tubeless rider, l am curious, how easy or hard of a job is it to clean out a set of tires with last year's sealant?

Do you have to use any specific cleaners or solvents or methods to remove the sealant?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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This article discusses it - I use Simple Green bike formula and a rag. Some manufacturers recommend soap, water, and a brush to 100% clean out the tire.

As far as easy vs hard - this mostly has to do with how tightly your tires fit on your wheels.

The article mentions that the sealant removal and cleaning has to be done at least once per year, but there is zero info on the details and method of the cleaning process itself.

Ignoring the removal of the tires from the rims, how difficult is the actual process of getting all of the gunk off your old tires and rims?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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I mean, you wipe it out with a rag and some cleaner. It's easy. If there are some chunks here and there, you pick them out with your hand and throw them away. I don't know of any other explanation necessary.

Perfect, that's helpful.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Thanks Greg. Unfortunately Slowtwitch doesn’t have a single-thread search functionality for mobile phones so I was having difficulty finding specific posts

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Matt

It's dried latex, you can literally just peel it off with your fingers in a few minutes per wheel. I do this every time I change a tire on a rim.

Hey all - Slowman and I recently had the opportunity to do a full tour of ENVE's HQ on Ogden. I just published a tour of their testing facility, which included a gaggle of tire test rigs. Of particular interest is their massive rolling resistance tester, and their machine that measures tire bead diameter and stiffness. The latter is what drives their approved/unapproved tubeless tire list for the AR series wheels, and we'll have more editorial coming about this topic (it's important stuff).

Link appears to be broken?

---

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex

It's on the Front Page

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...e_Test_Lab_7532.html

Sorry about that - fixed it. Not sure what happened.

Hi there,
Advice wanted please. First time with tubeless.

Attempting to install GP5000 25mm Tubeless on Flo disc using Continental accessory pack (tape, sealant , valves etc). After reading threads, watching videos
I managed to get the tyre on and it inflated relatively easily (no sealant added yet). I can't hear any obvious air loss but it was flat after a few hours.

So the question. Is this normal and should I proceed with adding sealant now and finishing the job or is there something more deeply wrong here and I should start again?

I did have a bit of struggle getting the cont rim tape into the wheel (tape was quite wide).

With thanks.
Johovoshta

Hard to say for certain. Most modern tubeless setups do say that you need tubeless-approved sealant to ensure a good seal (i.e. they're suggesting that they won't hold air long-term without sealant). If I was in your shoes, there are something I'd consider before proceeding:

-How easy or tight the tires were to get on (if they were loose, I'd remove the tire and install additional layers of tape).
-How cleanly the tire beads snapped up on to the bead shelf (if they seemed finicky or had a hard time going up in to place, I'd likely remove the tire and reinstall with generous amounts of bead lubricant... since they may not have been fully seated the first time).
-I'd check to be sure that the tubeless valve was installed correctly with all parts, and tightened sufficiently.

That said, I don't have experience with your wheel/tire/tape combo, so maybe someone else can chime in if they've used that setup.

I would add the sealant.

I have been running tubeless on the road for years. I always mount up the tire without sealant first to ensure the bead will snap into place quickly. I then deflate and remove the valve core and add sealant through there. Then re-inflate to desired pressure and spin the wheel for a bit to spread the sealant around the bead and valve core if it were going to leak. Occasionally I will use warm soapy water on the tire bead if it does not seat flush right away. Always use sealant, otherwise why would you go tubeless? Sealant works well to fill small holes from thorns or goatheads around where I live sealing up the tire and allowing you to continue your ride. Also, just because you get a puncture and it seals up fine, there are lots of ways to patch the hole later so you do not have to replace the tire.

As for the rim tape, check the spec on the ID of your rim and make sure you are using rim tape that is that width. Too wide and the tire fits tight, too narrow and the tire is loose. You can always do a double wrap if the tire is loose and you need to snug up the fit. I have mounted 100s of road tires and just as many mountain ones on all sorts of rims. If it takes longer than 5 minutes from start to finish there is probably something simple preventing the installation.

On the losing air without sealant question my guess is that it was leaking through the valve core. Meaning the valve nut was not tight enough. If it was leaking through the bead it would be visually and audibly noticeable. You could also apply warm soapy water around the tire and see if you see any small air bubbles coming out.

Thanks for the input everyone.

The tyres were a total pain in butt to fit on the wheel - I was close to giving up so I dread to think how they could be tighter.
The valve head had gotten looser but retightening and the same thing happened.

Based on this I think I will go for the sealant and cross my fingers.
Thanks again !/