Very cool,

On a side note I have been microing (word?) a lot of tires at 100 psi and on Enve 7.8, slightly (about 1mm narrower) on new zips.

GP 42k 25’s at 30 mm!

GP 5k 25’s at 26.9 mm.

As mentioned before on here run only a 23 4K up front.

The 4K rs measures truer to size at about 27mm

Maurice

If anyone's got any further questions feel free to ask - there's quite a bit of data but didn't want to go overloading the website with too many graphs. We also made a personal tyre pressure calculator the wheels which we've put here:

https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/aeox-wheels-tyre-data

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

I see that you mention reduced side force on your wheels. I’m interested in using the 100mm deep titan wheels, however I’m a bit afraid of stability in 100mm deep wheels. How do the wheels compare to say a zipp 808 and 404 in stability? Force reference I used to road race on 70mm deep Aeolus 7 wheels

I see there is some texture on the braking surface. Is this to improve braking?

Although the rim depth is 100mm, we spent a very long time in CFD making sure the side force was as low as possible so that the TITAN wheels would be rideable in the real world. There’s definitely no point having something that’s theoretically fast if you could never ride it - and as part of the development we did find faster designs that would have been too tricky to ride. Last week we had a male 59kg rider do a UCI national TT champs in 30kph crosswinds using the TITAN front and his feedback was that it was shockingly stable which is good. Better than an 808, we get feedback from riders at sessions that they have issues with 808s quite a bit.

Yes the brake track is laser cut with a pattern designed for good braking. Works really nicely in the wet if you’re unfortunate enough to get caught in the rain.

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AeroCoach UK
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Any plans for a disc cover for the Zephyr? That would be a pretty sweet option as you could optimise the design for the wheel.

Also how much would I gain going from PX 82 / 101 with veloflex extreme / carbon tubs to Zephyrs?

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http://www.tri-monkey.co.uk

Kudos for a great looking wheel at a good price point.

Slightly surprised your pressure calculator doesn't have an option to factor in road quality. Appreciate that this is somewhat subjective, but IME it's a big factor in finding optimal pressure, even when only talking about speed and not comfort. Do your tests show that it has no impact, or is it simply that there isn't a good objective way for your average rider to measure it?

We could do but the CAD/CFD and mould development cost would be quite high so you’d be better off with the full disc really.

PX 82s and 101s are really narrow and always pretty bad aerodynamically unless you’ve got the old Crono 20mm tubs which are like gold dust these days! You’d instantly see some big improvements from upgrading the tyres on your current wheels but the ZEPHYR pair would be a solid upgrade, you’d get more from the front wheel than the back, but potentially >10w from tyres alone and then probably similar for the pair of wheels, maybe more depending on the tyre width you’ve currently got.

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AeroCoach UK
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Thanks :)

Yes it’s something that’s tricky to factor in as everyone has different tarmac properties near them as well as perception of what is rough vs smooth. It does make a difference for sure, but not as much as off-road so you’re not going to changing by >5psi really. Always best to err on the side of too low than top high!

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Thanks and wow, so potentially 20w from a straight switch to the Zephyrs with Conti 5000s?

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http://www.tri-monkey.co.uk

Thanks - is it safe to assume the calculators err on the conservative side, so for super smooth roads there could be a small benefit in running at ~5PSI higher?

Have already put my Zephyr order in, partly as I have to deal with some crosswinds that get pretty strong and partly because I'm not convinced yet by tubeless and if I want to run clinchers with latex then the Zephyr is more forgiving of slightly different tire shapes and sizes? Where the Titan is very much optimised around the Victoria 23C tubeless?

Looks like the calculator gives low pressures.
Compared to the "standards"
Is it pure the earo or also the rolling resistance?

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

20w to the Vittoria Corsa Speeds, there’s just over a 7w difference Crr wise between Corsa Speeds and GP5000s.

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AeroCoach UK
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Thanks for the order! Yes the ZEPHYR is pretty impervious to tyre width changes, but the TITAN is a 23mm Corsa Speed only wheel. If you’re running GP5000 25mm then the ZEPHYR is actually faster than the TITAN and so would be the better choice.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Tyre pressure recommendations on the website are based on rolling resistance benefits. It may seem low compared to traditional recommendations but we’ve done so much testing on it and with more modern wide rims (like ours) you definitely don’t want to be pumping wheels up to 100psi any more.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Great results for H3+ in this test too!! Shallowest wheel performed very well in testing and still maintain aluminum brake track. Glad I went back to this wheel.

I'm very interested in what you've found testing Crr. Awhile back you stated that you couldn't get Crr <.005 on UK roads. Is that still so? Noticed any speed dependence?

You can on some but usually it’s only sections of a TT course rather than the whole thing being <0.005

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AeroCoach UK
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Dumb questions probably.

1. Can you run Zephyrs with tubes - if yes, how does it impact the performance for say GP5000TL?
2. What type of brake pads do you recommend?
3. Do you ship to the States - or do you have a local distributor here?

Thanks!

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

1. Yes absolutely - we recommend using Vittoria latex tubes rather than Michelin latex tubes as we find the Michelin’s a bit fragile at the valve stem area. We can supply them with the wheels. We find no difference in Crr between tubeless and Vittoria latex tubes, so it is just your preference.
2. All the AEOX wheels come with our specific carbon brake blocks included, which you should use with the wheels.
3. We do ship to the States no problem :)

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AeroCoach UK
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The specifications for the Titan wheels says:

"Rim width external (brake track): 26.7mm".

That seems to be wrong.

That’s correct, it gets wider further down the rim

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Is the brake track 26.7mm wide?

Can you elaborate on your recommendation against long course triathletes using the Corsa Speed? On a range of Zipp (easy) to Enve (incredibly difficult) . . . how easy is it to mount the typical tire on these wheels?

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

So if you were to run another brand 23mm tyre - eg a Conti SS or TT would you recommend a Zephyr over a Titan?

The rim is 26.7mm at the brake track, yes

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AeroCoach UK
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So with the feedback we have from triathletes the main thing long course triathletes are worried about is faff by the side of the road. Tubeless Corsa Speeds can be irritating to sort out with a tube if you’re not used to it, and GP5000s are just so unlikely to puncture that’s a more common choice. Of course the fastest thing will be a Corsa Speed no matter what kind of race you’re doing, it’s just a usability thing. For time triallists or triathletes who are racing in a situation where a puncture would be the end of their race, Corsa Speeds tubeless at least give you an extra level of puncture resistance before your race is over.

As for mounting the tyres the Zipps are incredibly loose aren’t they! I’d put ours in between the two, you do need a tyre lever but it’s not as tricky as the ENVEs. In our tests we found the ENVEs quite hard to seal tubeless as well with a Corsa Speed. It may not be obvious from our data but as one of the wheels (Zipp 858) wasn’t tubeless compatible we still used the TL version of the GP5000 on everything for consistency, but just with an inner tube inside.

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AeroCoach UK
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TITAN for 23mm. We will release more public data on further tyre testing (with the tyres that we would recommend people use), the GP TT is on that list but for all the current public stuff we wanted to keep with tubeless only tyres for consistency, to avoid confusion and because that’s what we recommend in any case. Too many graphs just get a bit lost in the noise so we wanted to make things clearer for customers as much as we could.

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AeroCoach UK
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Does the rim bulge out wider than 26.7mm in the middle?

Yes.

This may be a bit off topic. but how does the new wheel compare to the old aluminum rim 100? I was thinking of getting one of the 100mm aluminum wheels, but it looks like I missed my window of opportunity (unless you have some floating around that I could still get)

We’re not making them any more I’m afraid. They were so difficult to construct compared with our other wheels it was better to focus on the previous shallower wheel (the AEOX 75).

The TITAN is marginally more aero, but more importantly is far easier to handle so you can run it all the time. It’s also lighter.

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AeroCoach UK
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How much watts will I save if I switch from Hed jet9 black + Jet Black Disc to your Titan/Disc combo?

Look at the chart. Jet9 looks to be faster 0 to 7.5 yaw. The titan comes out ahead overall in this data because of the high yaw drag values. I would count on the Jet being slightly faster at most races. Your combo is probably a good as it gets and you will gain little to nothing by spending money to make the change. With braking from your aluminum tracks you probably save seconds at sharp turns. I honestly think you have the fastest setup out there, especially once you consider later braking points.

Similar case for zephyr vs Enve. They're almost the same averaged over 0 to 7.5. The average watt numbers look better for the zephyr because of the 7.5+ yaw data.

Xavier, any plan for developing an aerocoach trispoke? Front wheel.

As mentioned above it is close (although the TITAN is exceptional at 0), what tyres are you using?

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AeroCoach UK
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How much time saving in HIM with your titan/disc compared to FLO 60/FLO disc with gp5000?

One of our employees is keen but it’d be a really big R&D investment so only if we think it’ll be worth funding. Given the speed of the TITAN/ZEPHYR it would take a while - although we already have a wheelchair trispoke on file that we’ve finished all the CAD, CFD and tunnel testing (in 20” size) that might go into production later in the year, potentially for Tokyo 2020. A full cycling trispoke is a bit of a different project in terms of the construction and compatibility though.

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AeroCoach UK
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Corsa speed Open TLR 23mm (I believe 1st gen?) with silca latex tubes.

Thanks for the answer. I had seen the trispoke on the wheelchair on instagram and was keen to see if you had something in the making for cycling. Count one buyer in if you develop one.
Quite a few teams at the tdf running trispokes this year in the ttt.

It depends on your speed and width of the tyres (23 or 25?). The ZEPHYR front wheels are faster than TITAN if you have 25s, that flips round if you’re using 23s.

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AeroCoach UK
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Let’s Change it to zephyr/your disc
Tires 25
23 MPH

I can have you add a power meter to the disc correct?

Thank you

From our published data it’s 1.1w (using a weighted drag protocol) for a front wheel, and 1.3w for the disc (all at 45kph).

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AeroCoach UK
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So a ZEPHYR would be better than a TITAN in that case.

We haven’t put Flo wheels in our published graphs I’m afraid but they are good (regardless of what a certain wind tunnel “test” says!). In fact we found a 23mm GPTT to be a really good fit with a Flo 60 from a Crr + CdA combined perspective.

Yes we can put a Powertap in the disc.

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AeroCoach UK
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Did you some comparison with 2spoke wheels. They look very fast. (They say it's faster then a disk) but I don't have seen the test data.

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Yet again HED comes in second in someone aero testing. :)

Yet another piece of evidence that if you just want to check the "aero wheels" box and not worry about it, get HED.

Nothing against these wheels - they look great, and have my full attention.

I’ve spoken with someone that’s done aero testing with them, they said they’re fine but nothing special.

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AeroCoach UK
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HEDs are good for sure. Just a tyre width thing with the Jet 9+ front, if you run a 25 it's slower than a TITAN 23/ZEPHYR 23/ZEPHYR 25 whereas there's no penalty on a ZEPHYR with a 25.

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AeroCoach UK
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What is the width of the Titan rim in the middle?

Just over 30mm, the widest point isn't directly in the middle though.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

30.1mm? 30.4mm? 30.7mm?

As long as we have your attention, ... Any updates on the new skinsuit fabrics?

Aha ;) - in production but it's been delayed. We will have updated skinsuits coming out soon regardless, but new fabrics likely 2020. All the designs are done it just takes a while to physically weave the fabrics in the quantities needed.

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AeroCoach UK
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Yess, i can have the wheelset from my wife :P
So If anyone is interrested in handbuild wheels,Stealth 90mm with Hope RS4 only 400-500km old

Question what would be the time saved over 40k when i switch to the AEOX ZEPHYR / Disc combo

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

I'm not sure which wheels you mean I'm afraid. It's always a bit finger in the air with comparisons unless we have full data - earlier in the thread we have a fair bit of info on Planet X wheels so we can make a more informed decision, but with wheels we haven't seen before it's harder to be exact.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

They are made in Belgium (http://www.stealthwheels.be) but can't find
Aero data. it is the fighter model.

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

They do seem to be a generic design. Perhaps at some point we can do a comparison with more commonly used open mould wheels, but deciding which ones to go for is very tricky as there are a lot out there.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

I can't understand why an internal spoke nipple would not be used on something meant to be cutting edge aero. 100% has to be lower drag. Why? Also how is the lateral flex with a narrow hub flange? Has to have more flex and spoke load. No free lunch here.

How much lighter?
How big is the difference in braking between new and old aluminium?
What's the difference between your supplied brake pads and for example SwissStop Flash Black Prince?
If one has no problem with handling with the old aluminum, will the difference in aero and weight be so marginally small that an upgrade to Corsa Speed 2 will be just as good?
What's your recommended torque spec for aero skewers like the TriRig Styx?

Higher flanges - more than makes up the difference, we have got deflection testing data on that which will make it onto the website. It does make the hub a bit heavier though but worth it overall. Internal nipples were a consideration and we do have some special reversible nipples that will allow it, but it's not like the valve which creates drag by being a massive cylinder (in comparison) and serviceability is key, certainly for the ZEPHYR which are more of an all round wheelset.

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AeroCoach UK
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It's around 40g lighter than the previous AEOX 100. If you've already got one and you're good with the handling on it then it's a perfectly fine wheel so no need to upgrade. Putting the new CS will be nice for puncture protection, we find it's better. Torque settings are more of a frame and skewer thing rather than wheel, you don't want to be putting 10Nm into any wheel though.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

What about the brake pads? What's special about them and will you be selling them individually?

So the AEOX Hub should be okay with 6Nm if the fork is?

Was it because of the handling the old wheel was only recommended for racing and not training?

Would be interesting to see comparison aero data between the old and the new 100 wheels.

Did you ever test a disc brake wheel with a lower spoke count? I've always found Roval's 21 spoke 2:1 lacing approach interesting for disc brake wheels.

Have you measured the difference between using the disc and the Titan rear..? (For those with one eye on Kona....)

Any PX deals available to those with the alloy rim version..? ;-)

Yes no problem to replace them if people need. It's a warranty thing - we know our pads work fine with the wheels but we don't want people to go and use a poor brake block and run into issues.

Yes that torque setting sounds fine.

Yes - very much race day only for most people.

I've attached some data for the previous AEOX 75 vs. the ZEPHYR, we haven't added in the AEOX 100 for this current data set as it was discontinued quite a while ago. Their performance was similar to the TITAN, a bit worse at the lower yaws making them slower overall.

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AeroCoach UK
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It'll be less than the difference between the ZEPHYR and the disc but we've not done the full data set with all the tyres etc. Mainly (and we've recommended this recently for an athlete going to Kona with our wheels) having the deepest rim on the back will help to stabilise the bike so somewhere like Kona that's a good thing, regardless of the aero difference. Don't worry about using a 25mm on a rear TITAN either, just the front one you need to use a 23mm.

If you send an email through the website contact form Rich will help you out if you want to upgrade.

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AeroCoach UK
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What's the maximum width of the Titan rim?

No we haven't played around with lower spoke counts for the disc brake wheels - we settled on 24x for everything disc brake as it helps to reduce the hub SKUs and keep the cost down.

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AeroCoach UK
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If the concern is handling, wouldn't training on them be even more important?

No concern for the aero penalty from the additional spoke count?

I do wonder about the aerodynamics of the hub, a lot of modern stuff looks to have a lot of frontal area, in cpmparison to say an old campy record hub.

4 extra spokes, disc rotors, non aero hub (our disc hub isn't the narrow version) - there are a few compromises one has to make anyway to enable disc compatibility

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AeroCoach UK
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I have my eye on the AEOX full disc but I have a 2019 Speed Concept. What considerations do I have to take in to account because of the reduced chainstay clearance?

None :) you just let us know in the order comments and we build the wheel with better clearance on non drive side for you (they’re all hand built).

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AeroCoach UK
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Cool Thanks!

Some stupid question,Is a stroke in the disc wheel repairable?

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Do you mean a broken spoke? No, but we’ve never had a spoke break so far and we’ve sold lots of them so there’s no need to worry.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Does a 3:13:37 /100 mile TT come as standard with the wheel package..?

https://www.facebook.com/...d&epa=SEARCH_BOX

Aha! Quite a performance wasn't it, just shy of 50kph for over three hours.

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AeroCoach UK
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Couldn't have done much better myself..! ;-)

I am interested in getting the ZEPHYR + AEOX disc for my Speedmax CF SLX. Performance comparisons seem pretty good. I am, however, not convinced about the build quality. What is your opinion on the "gap" construction issues mentioned in this article [1]. Is this something that is still applicable for the new wheels?


[1] https://www.hambini.com/...hich-one-is-fastest/

No, it is not relevant as the ZEPHYR and disc are full carbon clinchers.

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AeroCoach UK
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I have no association with Aerocoach nor do I have any hands on experience with these wheels. But a few points to consider:

• The general consensus by those in the know is that Hambini has no credibility.
• The new wheels are fully carbon, not aluminum rims with carbon fairings, so the gap issue is not relevant.
• Typical of his rather "out there" findings are that the holes in the older wheels with aluminum fairings caused 15w of drag at 50km/hour. Hed wheels have significant gaps around the spokes and they typically do well in wind tunnel tests. And as I mentioned, that issue is irrelevant to the new wheels.

Just some points for you to consider.

15W at 50 kph for those gaps is priceless. I've tested a Jet 9 with similar gaps several times both on the track and outdoors and those gaps are surely not worth anything near 15W - unless, of course, the rest of HED's wheel design somehow makes up for those 15W in other places compared to both other deep profile wheels and disc wheels, but I highly doubt that.

Thanks for your answers so far!

I tried the tyre pressure calculator and is curious to why your aero test data says 90psi when the calculator yields 90psi for a rider weight of 90kgs for 23mm and 94kgs for 25mm. Even including clothes and helmet, isn't the average rider lighter than that?
Also, on the old Vittoria Corsa Speed the pressure limits stated on the tyre was 87-130psi. According to the pressure calculator 87psi is recommended for a rider weight of 85kgs on 23mm. So your recommended tyre pressure will be lower than the stated pressure limits by the manufacturer for every rider weight lower than 85kgs...

I find these pressure numbers odd, am I misunderstanding the calculator? Can you explain more about the calculator or about the decision to aero test the wheels with 90psi?

We started doing aero testing at 90psi a while back and so kept with that, there’s not really much more to it apart from making sure it’s consistent. We might use different riders for test days for example but need the tyre shape to be the same (in the tunnel the bike is suspended on struts rather than all the weight pressing on the rollers).

I honesty don’t know why manufacturers suggest such high psi - it must be as a result of smooth roller testing where higher (than you’d use outdoors) is better, but I do understand that it is at odds with what we’re suggesting. We do a lot of outdoor testing and the online calculator is a result of a lot of Crr calcs and modelling from specific test sessions as well as races, over a wide range of rider weights.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

When you order a set wheels and include the tubeless tires option are they mounted or provided as a kit

Thanks

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

If you want them mounted we can do that for free, just make sure you put a comment in the comments box at checkout :)

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Thanks for the answer.

The wheel bags are only included when I add tires. Do u have a delivery date for now placed orders for Zephyr disc wheel combo and disc brake? (I waited a while and hoped they where on stock but still not on stock)

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Best not to wait for stock for the foreseeable future as the demand is really high so I can't see us holding stock for a while! ZEPHYR + Disc in disc brake, I would expect they would ship end of October if ordered now.

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AeroCoach UK
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Thanks, I send you a pm with some questions

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Hi

There are something you should take in consideration. Even though you order a disc for a Speed Concept it would not fit right out of the box.

I had to modify the break pads, the Durotrap cover and remove the rubber grommets to make it fit. That gave 5-7 mm. clearance between the side of the disc and the frame.

I could not use the wheel even though, because it is so flexible that it rubs against the frame. The wheels are apparently not checked for flex before send to the customer. So you will also have to check it yourself.

So you have a new disk wheel and you can't use it?

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Yes I bought a new disc fitted for a Speed Concept, witch I bought to Ironman Barcelona. But I could not use it because it rubs against the frame at 150 watt or so. I didn’t think I had to check for that much flex in the disc.

I hope mine would not have that much flex (orderd a disc with a frontwheel combo) disc brake edition

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

So has anyone that ordered Titan or Zephyrs actually received them yet? The last update I got was shipping of the first July order batch was trending to Oct 21.

I am waiting for my set a disc and a zephyr disc brake version. I was told shipping October but delayed to November

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

I'm patiently waiting for a Titan front and Zephyr set. The Titan has missed two key TTs for me now, and now I'm into the off season. Oh well...

Is the AEOX Ultra Rear disc new? Looks like a great Roval alternative. 970g in rim brake clincher form and made in UK. Though it does have a spoke construction. Reminds me of the 825g CITEC Ultra disc, but the Aerocoach uses a carbon brake track and is wider.

I ordered an Aeox front and Aeox disc to delivery in September. I august was told the Aeox was delayed and I would receive my disc in start September, but I came 24th of September. As I mention earlier the disc had so much flex it was useless. I am now waiting for a replacement and the front wheel. My plan were to race Ironman Barcelona with the wheels but I ended up with a set of rental wheels because of the flex in the disc and missing front wheel.

I do apologise for the issue that you had with your wheel, with the Speed Concepts the tolerances are very tight with both the wheel clearance and the frame too as the Duotrap on the non drive chain stay is a real issue for wider discs. The flex was extremely odd and I think the guys are looking closer into that as we’ve not had that before. Front wheels have experienced some delays purely due to order volume but we’re just about getting on top of it, I do hope Rich (customer service) is sorting you out as I know it must be frustrating, apologies again!

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Yes it’s brand new - released this week. For the ULTRA discs we have a different layup for the tubeless rim bed, different layup for the covers and also a different hub. Still 24 spokes underneath (CX Rays), and the aero performance is the same as the standard AEOX disc, but we’ve just managed to get it well under 1000g with a fair bit of work! 25.7mm wide for the tubeless version and 23mm wide for the tubular (880g).

One thing we find handy with the construction of the discs and pro teams/people who travel is that you can drop tools on the sidewalls and it won’t damage them compared with something like a Lightweight disc or other disc with structural sidewalls. Can be trued in the event of a crash as well. Everyone loves a Lightweight but a few pro teams are moving over to tubeless for 2020 and they don’t currently offer a tubeless disc.

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AeroCoach UK
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I always assumed solid would be better in the case that something drops on them, since the walls feel more solid. How come the thin cover over spokes is more resistant to impact?

What hubs are you using for the Ultra? Would be nice to see a reputable name like DT over something proprietary at such price point.

It’s because the covers have flex in them - so if you drop something it absorbs the impact rather than denting like a solid sidewall. On the ULTRA we’re using Extralite hubs inside which are extremely well made.

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AeroCoach UK
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Good to know, thank you.

Do the Extralite hubs require more frequent service than DT240, or are the seals similar? I'm ignorant on hubs, but I've heard some lightweight hubs require more frequent maintenance due to the types of seals they use to save weight.

Also, for those of us outside the EU, is there a saving on VAT?

The seals used on the bearings do not affect weight.

Full contact seals are used to keep the dirt and water out of the bearings, but they have higher friction.

Low contact or completely removing the seals allow dirt and water in, but they are really fast. Basically, they would be used for races.

That makes sense. Does Extralite use sealed bearings that won't require much maintenance?

Four of the team have been racing (and internationally travelling) on the ULTRA discs this year and the bearings have been holding up fine (they are sealed). In fact we had someone use one in the World Championships TT in Yorkshire in absolutely horrendous weather and it survived perfectly well.

The worst bearings we’ve found for top level TT wheels have interestingly been those on Pro 3 trispokes - but they’re very much the exception, we know they’re quite difficult to manufacture. Fast wheels though.

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AeroCoach UK
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Thanks for the info! Very tempting for next triathlon season

Hi Xavier

I am a huge fan of the work you are doing with the testing and innovative products.

However, I think you need to be better at your communication and customer service. You wrote:



Now you are saying, with the Speed Concepts the tolerances are very tight with both the wheel clearance and the frame too as the Duotrap on the non drive chain stay is a real issue for wider discs. I am, and I guess that Scottxs also is, aware of that. However, your first answer let me to believe there would be no issues.

I don’t know if Rich is sorting anything out. I'm sorry to say that I can't trust the information I get from him.

Are there known issues with a Felt IA3 disc brake version?

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

First let me apologise again for the issue that you’ve had. We’ve built discs for Speed Concepts before which is why we didn’t anticipate any issue with your disc - I’ll chase up with Rich this week and make sure that any communication is much clearer. Thanks very much for your patience as I do appreciate that issues can be frustrating!

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

No - no problems there as there is plenty of clearance

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Received my Zephyr front about 3 weeks ago. Fitting a Conti 5000 TL was an absolute PITA, but other than that very happy. The valve cover is a bit fiddly but figure I'll only use it for races and it's not much more hassle than covering up valve holes on the disc. Can't give any definitive feedback on how aero it is since it's on a new bike and I've tweaked my position as well, but it looks fast and I've set a bunch of PRs in the last few weeks so that's good enough for me.

Do the new disc wheels have laser cut brake tracks like the Zephyr?

The latest versions do, yes

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Has there been aero testing with the disc brake versions of these wheels or is it purely the rim brake versions which have been compared? (sorry if I've overlooked this somewhere)... If not, do you know what the aero penalty roughly is for the disc brake versions?

Cheers

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

It's a good question but difficult to compare like to like as you need to do it in a different frame.

Wheel only testing isn't the thing to do in that situation because different frames will have different aero interactions with the disc brake caliper and chainstays for example, not just the rotor, and there isn't really an easy like for like rim/disc frame we can swap them between. We have had disc brake AEOXs in the tunnel to good effect though - but not any specific wind tunnel data we can share I'm afraid.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Ahh ok, that makes sense! Cheers for getting back.

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

Thanks for the info. How is the braking? Have you happened to be caught in the rain and tried braking? If braking on these are as good as ENVE SES (in wet particularly) then I would be very interested.

Can't compare directly to the Enves as I've not ridden them but braking seems fine for a carbon braking surface. It's got a good bit of texture to the braking surface which I think helps. Haven't really had to test it though, I'm very much a fair weather TTer who only takes the bike out on dry days and roads with minimal traffic and hills! So braking isn't that much of a priority for me. Road bike is a different matter, that goes out in all conditions and gradients and so good braking is critical, but for exactly that reason I'm still using wheels with an aluminium braking surface and will go to disc brakes on my next road bike.

Ok, thank you. It would be interesting to see how the Zephyr front performs on your road bike for a ride :-)

First off, thanks Xavier for making some great posts here in this thread.

Second: I am looking at a good front wheel for next years time trial and triathlon season. I can't really seem to judge when a Titan is worth it over a Zephyr. My current favourite is the Zephyr since it seems way more versatile than a Titan regarding tires. If a tire change can negate a few extra hundred euros spent on the wheel, what is the point? Other than that a 100mm deep wheel looks badass.

I am doing short time trials and sprint triathlons, nothing longer than an hour on the bike. How much of a difference would I be looking at between these wheels (with the same tyre)?

I also had to choose between zephyr and the Titan. But I choose for the zephyr because it is more al round. And a 10cm front with cross winds is hard to handle sometimes. (I have a 9cm stealth wheelset but it is not easy to handle with wind force 4 and above)

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Rbe makes a good pitch for the ZEPHYR - it’s more stable than the TITAN and does allow you to run different tyres with different widths and not worry too much.

One way of looking at it is that if you’re happy to run Vittoria Corsa Speeds because you just want to go as fast as physically possible then choose the TITAN, but if you want to run a slightly different tyre (maybe a GP5000 TL) then the ZEPHYR will be a better choice. A 25mm tyre will slow down the TITAN and make the ZEPHYR a faster wheel, you have to run a 23 on the TITAN. I do TTs of varying lengths and have been using a TITAN w/Vittoria Corsa Speed all year though, handling wise it’s very stable indeed - more so than its depth would suggest.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Okay, so according to the graphs on the website the difference between the wheels is about 2.8 watts. I assume the potential benefits of a TITAN will be higher, the higher the speeds are? Since it is better at lower yaw angles. I'm just trying to see if it's worth the extra money for me, riding at 45km/h speeds for 20 min time trials (hopefully .. adding a disc and good front wheel will boost that a bit).

Yes that's right - 2.8w at 45kph when using a 23mm Vittoria Corsa Speed. Let's say you scale that up to 50kph - it will then be >4w as you'll experience lower yaw angles as well as the increased wattage savings at higher speeds. You get more from the front wheel than the rear - on our disc data page you can see there's a 2w swing between the discs at 45kph but there's much more from front wheels.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

I believe the ultra disc comes in disc brake option with extralite ultrahubs. Can they be swapped for something like carbon ti?

Also, and this is of utmost importance ... how does the disc wheel sound? Whompy? 😬😂

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

Ultra discs we just build on Extralite hubs - Carbon Ti are heavier than Extralite so would put them over 1000g

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Aha! They do make a cool noise - it's different from something like a solid disc but people will know about it when you overtake them ;)

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Hi Xavier, awesome new offering of wheels from Aerocoach!

I have a question regarding the aerodynamics of the rim brake vs the disc brake versions of the Titan and Zephyr wheels.

If I understand the specifications correctly a significant part of the aerodynamic benefits from the AEOX wheels compared to other brands come from the narrow, high-flange hubs, am I right?

You mention that the disc brake versions come with straight pull hubs, which I assume need to be of a standard width to be able to cope with the added torsional forces resulting from disc brakes.. Do you have any data as to how that negatively impacts the overall aerodynamics of the wheel, and how they compare to the competition then?

Kristoffer

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"Ride smarter, not harder" -me ;)

Hi Kristoffer - it's a good question, but something that needs to be considered in the bike as an entire system.

The disc brake hubs don't have the same flanges that you get on the rim brake hubs - but the flange location is pulled in on the non drive (disc) side to accommodate the disc anyway, so you've only really got the drive side spokes that are slightly outwards. In terms of what this does overall will depend on the frame and fork that you're using - so if you have a well designed disc brake frame then it'll be faster than a badly designed rim brake frame, regardless of any slightly differences in wheels. We don't do wheel only testing when presenting data so don't have a wheel only comparison between rim and disc brake. The hub isn't the only drag reducing factor with an AEOX wheel (overall rim shape, tyre interaction at the brake track, hidden valve are the other main ones) so swapping to a disc hub doesn't kill the wheels, so as to speak.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Any plan to offer a ~60mm wheel. Your designs are quite slick, love what you did with the valve. Question: in development did you guys strictly optimize around aero or did you take into consideration the center of pressure and how it changes across yaws?

What is the stability of the Zephyr like as a front wheel? I didn't realise quite how deep it is and thought it was a 60, and as im looking to buy my first set of deep wheels I'm unsure about handling. I know I have a bit of a learning curve with sidewinds etc; as an heavier rider im hoping it wont be too bad, but living in Wales im almost guaranteed windy conditions! I'd like to go Zephyr/Disc, just a little hesitant with the extra depth on the front.

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

I am not sure which front you are talking about 75 or 100mm. Too deep wheel can ruin a race, so use some caution. Probably the best combo is get the 100 front and shop around for a used Jet 5+ (maybe $250 max). Calm day 100. Crappy day 50mm.

Its the 75 I was considering on the front... I think its the Titan wheel which is the 100mm, and I defo wrote that one off as an option lol!

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

The zephyr wheels are good in windy conditions. The stiffness feels ok. I have a other 90mm wheelset that is much more wind affected and I am a 6ft3 rider.
Used it only once yet du the winter.

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

Thats good to hear! I ended up pulling the trigger on the Zephyr/Aeox Disc combo and I've just been waiting on them to be built, should hopefully be next month... then i can finally have my tri bike put together! Their Black Friday deal was too good not to take the chance on them. They look lovely on that Felt so hopefully they look just as good on my PR5!

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

Hello Xavier,

One question to maintenance of AEOX disc wheel. If it starts to oscillate slightly, is there any procedure how to center the wheel?

Thank you for your great work!

Bartosz

Hi Bartosz - if you mean truing the wheel then yes this is possible using a spoke tool as we have a square head on the nipples in the rim bed. You’d just need to remove the tyre, rim tape etc to get at the spokes :)

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Xavier - I have a question on your aero data that has been puzzling me for a while. I'm used to seeing wind tunnel graphs showing a reduction in drag at yaw angles from ~5deg to ~15g where it then drops off again (both for wheel and bike results) akin to the Tour mag example below.

However, your charts do not appear to show and such reduction - what is the reason for this? I assumed initially everyone would be correcting measured tunnel data in the same way when giving yaw results back to the same 'quoted' speed but maybe suspecting this not the case? I dismissed it before because that would seem too straightforward an error! Or am I missing something else equally straighforward? Thanks in advance!

Hi - thanks very much for the question and it is a really good one.

When we do our testing we use large numbers of repeats and live riders, we don't do wheel only testing for example. So what you're seeing in our graph is a test riders CdA (who we make hold a particular position that doesn't reward higher yaw values). If you did wheel only testing our wheels (and everyone elses) would drop down at yaw like the Tour test you see above. It's more the comparison between the wheels that's important rather than the characteristics of the yaw chart in this case. In our CFD data and in wheel only data (for our wheels and others) it would look more like the Tour graph.

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Understood, many thanks! Im perhaps surprised then that the effect isnt slightly more evident given how big it is in the standalone data.

Does the ‘sailing effect’ get spoilt when part of a full system or is it still there but the rider is just that much worse at yaw?

It really depends on the rider and their position - in this example the rider is holding a position where they're sat really far forwards towards the front of the bike, which for them is much much more consistent in terms of data collection but results in the yaw graph you show.

Here's an example of a more normal position where there's a more decrease in CdA at yaw, from our Lotus vs Zipp 3001 vs Cervelo P5 test:

https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/lotus-wind-tunnel

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Xavier,

First of all I want to recognize amazing transparency and loads of data you guys are providing. Really unique attitude these days!

I know you cannot compare your wheels against every single wheelset out there, but any chance you have an insight how would Titan go vs Swiss Side Ultimate 80?

Thanks!

Hi - thanks for the kind words :)

We don’t have a specific comparison for the TITAN vs the Swissside 80, but your choice will depend a bit on your tyre preference, as our TITAN wheel is designed to work best with 23mm tyres. Which tyres are you looking at using?

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

I am using Vittoria Corsa Speed 2.0 23mm at the front. Rear is disc with 25mm Corsa. So the question is mostly about front.

That is what we’d recommend with the TITAN so would be a good match. Whichever wheels you end up with I’m sure you’ll be super speedy :)

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

I assume AeroCoach is still doing Powertap hubs in the disc wheels. One thing I always wondered about those was what the savings of using the PT disc with a good aero crank like the Metron would be over running the regular disc with something like a Shimano crank. Is that something you looked at and are the PT options still available ?

It’s a good question - actually that’s exactly what I’ve done on my pursuit bike (Miche Primato Air aero cranks plus an AEOX track disc with a track Powertap hub) as it’s more aero than power based cranks plus an AEOX disc. A lot is going to depend what cranks you’re using - those Miche have very low Q Factor which is the majority of the improvement really. We’ve done Miche vs Tiagra on a TT bike before but that was including a front mech and inner chainring removal as well (it was 9w faster in total).

We can do PT hubs as a special build, you just need to email the site. Too many options and potential customisations for a drop down list of spoke count, type, hub model etc!

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Any chance you could create some basic training wheels that match the width of the disc, Zephyr/Titan..? They wouldn't need to be 'aero' just strong and reliable. (And not too expensive) constantly changing brake pads from alloy to carbon is a massive PITA....and I wouldn't want to train on race tyres - especially tubeless ones.

At the moment I have your alloy rimmed wheels which are great, and easy to swap with training wheels, but I'd buy the new ones tomorrow if I could get some reasonable carbon every day wheels at the same time.

Understood - and yes we can do a rear wheel/front wheel combo using the rear rim, which would require a slight amount of opening up of the brake caliper when you put a ZEPHYR/TITAN in the front (couple of mm) but you can leave the rear one alone and use the same brake pads for both. If you email the website and reference this conversation the guys can sort out a quote for you :)

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AeroCoach UK
http://www.aero-coach.co.uk

Awesome...thanks. I'll be in touch very soon..!

I think Filippo Ganna has been rocking a GP TT in the Giro time trial - is a 23mm GP TT/GP5000 with a Titan faster than the same tyre on a Zephyr (also - would the answer be different for front and rear? )? Or may he had a Corsa Speed whitelabelled as a Conti tyre?

I'm pretty sure he has some limited edition pro only GP TT tires. They seem to be labeled as GPTTs but with the tread pattern of GP4000s. Likely the rolling resistance of the TT with the aero of the 4000s. Unfortunately not for sale to the general public it seems.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Recently placed an order for a Zephyr front/Aeox Disc combo for my P-Series. I haven't ridden anything larger than 60mm in the front, and have also never ridden a rear disc. Looks like delivery is more than a few weeks out, but I'm looking forward to receiving the wheels and trying them out.

I got a Zephyr front / Titan rear and they look sweet - was hoping to use them for Cozumel 2020, but got stopped by lockdown restrictions. Disc will be added next year hopefully. Not too keen though on Corsa Speeds for long course.

Coming from Flo 60/Disc and that was a major improvement over Hed 3s in sidewinds.

That's good to know. I also went with 25c GP5K's and latex tubes, I've had good luck with that combo on my road and tri bike. No need to experiment with something else.

Resurrecting an old thread here but chanced across this after nearly a week of wheel research at work.

Tempted by an Aeox front and rear as an upgrade to the relatively basic Reynolds AR58 on my QRPR Six.

Most of the races I do are of the full distance extreme variety and I’m wondering about a few things.

1) how do these wheels perform on technical routes, often on poorer road surfaces (think North Yorkshire, Fred Whitton etc)
2) are they suitable for training too, not depths of winter, but I won’t save them for “best”.
3) how is climbing performance, generally speaking, do they “feel” their weight. Again, the races I do often feature 2000m + climbing over 180km

Also, final cheeky question. The new CES, Scribe, Parcours wheels look like genuine rivals at a better price. Any idea of the benefits of the aeox over these wheels!

Thanks in advance, hopefully

Anyone got the vittoria Corsa speed 2.0 tubeless on the wheels ?

The continental 5000 tl are easy to get tubeless but the corsa I can’t get tubeless air keeps escaping. It won’t seat into the rim

Tried a compressor, seating lube, bought a bontrager flash charger pump.

Anyone some tips

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

My experience with the ease of the GP5000 being mounted and the initial difficulty of mounting the CS2.0 mirrors yours. Eventually I realized an extra layer of rim tap was all that was needed. From their my normal mounting routine went fine (I did use a compressor)

My Speed 2.0 went on easily and inflated on first try with an Airshot. I tried getting a 5000 S on there and struggled. The Speed went on super easy and was kind of floppy. I did do my 30ml of Stans Race before I inflated, swirled it around and tried to work the beads to the edge best I could. Made sure the valve was in the middle of the tire and held that area with my free hand to help guide the tire as inflation occurred. I was surprised when it popped the first try.

I was nervous racing with such a delicate tire buy has survived Oceanside and 2 Olympics and still looks great.

How did you get it more to the edge ? If I try it it goes back to the middle. The tire is so flexible in compare with the gp5000

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Follow my project on Project 100 miles / 4 hours

I watched a youtube vid on easy tubeless sealing and they showed to work the beads around the sides of the rim. They used a lever but the Speed is so flexible I just used my hands to go around. Plus the sealant helped. At the valved during inflating I held my hand over the tire and pressed down to force the tire towards the sidewalls. Maybe I got lucky?