From what I gather it's just a way to dose long term with testosterone.

It's just as unethical as taking any other PED and racing.

Regardless of when they took them that doesn't mean they haven't cheated. Enhancements to fitness and endurance have a lasting effect. You can't just take a substance that it is banned inside competition and compete clean. Well you can, but you are still cheating. Maybe they won't get an OOC test but that doesn't excuse their behavior.

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So what would you do?? I'm wondering how common this is? I agree 100%. I told them it's illegal. They all said "I am not looking to podium". Then what?

The Endocrine Society advises against the use of testosterone therapy in healthy women. Testosterone pellets ruined my nephews life and put my partners kids through college. I keep a copy of this in every exam room. I'll just leave it at that.

Naturopathy has no scientific evidence based methods. Most medical professionals consider them quacks or snake oil salesman.



Surely a Naturopath is not allowed to prescribe testosterone.

They are and they do.

Thank you for the article. This makes me think the idea of a "recreational athlete category" is warranted. These are good people who mean no harm and don't understand how they are breaking the rules. (Or don't want to understand because they feel better with the pellets.) I'm going to share the article with a few but I suspect they will dismiss it.

This.

Louis :-)

Under the rules, it's very simple... they are free to take whatever therapy they want, they just can't race. And honestly, if they do, and they truly 'don't care' about their placing, they should have themselves removed from the results. If it makes them feel great and they'd rather continue the therapy than race, that's the choice they need to make.

You should go here: https://www.usada.org/athletes/playclean/
Report them. Give as many details as possible.
USADA may investigate. I know USADA has punted at least 1x on someone using T pellets even when given documentation such as a FB post, pics of them being implanted etc, doc they used.

Contact USAT triathlon and let them know, although they really don't care about AG doping.

We can each only do our part to help sport stay clean

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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Another term for "low normal" is "normal."

There is no FDA-approved use of testosterone for women.

And there's the irony of a "naturopath" promoting use of powerful pharmaceutical drugs.

Yes, thank you Brian for your sage advice

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What Desert Dude said in regards to protocol. I guess these women may not be as much of a concern to some, but the top 10 Ironman age-group finishers you mentioned as well would surely piss off a lot more people.

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What would I do? I sure wouldn't tell them it's illegal - it's almost certainly not.

If they are MOP/BOP I'd ignore it.

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It's exogenous, so it's doping. Regardless of their aspirations.

Top 10 AG in an Ironman is far from MOP, let alone BOP! So I can't understand anyone feeling they should get a 'pass'.

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29 years and counting

The op posted that the top 10 AG finishers used it in the past but she doesn't know if they are using it now. So assuming we aren't hypothesizing on someone's potential use when we have no clue, how is this an issue? Unless you are saying that a person who uses a banned substance should be stricken for life?

report them to the tip line if they are actively racing any triathlons, bike races, running or track and field, or Masters swim events.

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I think this will be an issue that will be getting harder and harder to deal with. I am a 60 year old male. I have had two of three tests for testosterone because its so low. (49 and 45). I have no desire to take anything to boost it. I have no other symptoms. I am signed up for a 100 miler that my goal is 34 hours (36 hour cutoff)…..If for some reason my Dr thinks I need to do some therepy, you really think I am going to go through all the hassle to get a TUE? Especially since temporary? I also have a 40k where I finished I think 98th out of 138.
My point is this, people in this situation will not be going through all the hassle to get a tue., So what do you do with them? I agree its technically doping. I agree it should not be someonethats on the podium. But this issue is going to be coming up more and more...………………...again, I plan on not taking anything in my case. But I could care less if someone else did.

+1 Olympic level controls are not realistic for everyday people. I'm not advocating a free-for-all system but the level of restriction now will lead to people bending the rules. It's easy to say that they are all dopers but the actual answer is much more nuanced as most seek no true athletic advantage.

You should report them to USADA.

https://www.usada.org/athletes/playclean/

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Illegal in the sense of violating the WADA code, not criminal law, is the implied use of the word here.

WADA makes no distinction about competitiveness or MOP/BOP, excepting the RCTUE. The RCTUE sounds like exactly the right choice in this case. If defines what "recreational" means, rather than allowing people to just arbitrarily decide they're "MOP" so they don't need to follow the rules. If they don't have one, they're doping. (assuming they're actively racing in USAT-or-IM sanctioned races).

To be honest the thing you do with this info is just worry about yourself. They aren’t winning the world championship. They’re treating a disease and triathlon is their hobby. Relax.

Yet the nuance is they are still doping. Do I agree there may be a need for a dual license system, competitive & non competitive categories where the latter is less restrictive? Yeah I'd be up for that.

Until then it's doping. There is no black and white. When you register for your license you agree to stay clean. Period.

Look, even the nicest of people dope. Even if they are finishing 120 out of 125, they still shoplifted results from someone that rightfully deserve to be a spot higher. Stealing is wrong and doping is stealing rightful finishes from other people.

Then, at least to me, the question to those that know someone who is taking PEDs is what is your moral character? Do you allow stealing to continue or do you do something to potentially stop theft?

That's the real nuance.

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I agree its balck and white,but reality is its not going to stop. Example, someone pays what now ? 800 plus for entrance to IM. Then reserves room for week, Te
hey are shooting for a 13hr finish, then someone on their Tri group informs them they are doping. You think its realistic they will drop from the race and lose all that, or go through all the headache for a tue when probably in their case the race director does not even care? ………….then all the people in their tri group will kick them out and call them a doper? I doubt it

I'm curious to know how hard it is to get an RCTUE, or how many have been granted. I'm a little leery of the argument that it's a "headache" or a great burden on people. Using your example, someone training for an IM has to reorganize their life for many months to get training in. They pay thousands of dollars arranging intricate travel and logistics plans. They buy dozens of pieces of specialized equipment. They set up nutrition and hydration plans. They spent up to thousands of hours practicing skills. Many people purchase the expert advice of coaches, trainers, and...naturopaths.

But suddenly filling out a 4-page form is a massive burden that we couldn't possibly expect people to do. (and that's the TUE form, couldn't find the RCTUE form, which is why I'm curious about it).

Correct. Low testosterone is normal for somebody who isn't a 18 year-old male. This person's friends should also have less antler growth than the average Elk... because they aren't one. People need to get a grip on what's normal for their age and gender if they want to play on a level field.

Yes, after I, like I am sure many others, woukd not bother to fill out a tue form. I am also sure yu would have to take it to a Dr ect….. I have no idea, and I would not bother. I think that is realistic.
Again I do not plan on taking anything. But in my 100 I will be finishing 16 Hours past the winner. I think if someone emailed the race director and told them a finisher in that range may have an illegal substance, the director would probably just delete the email. Think they are going to have me tested?

a friend of mine (mid 40's) is on T injections citing he has low Testosterone. I ask him... did he try stop training for 6 months to see if it returns naturally, you have no natural right to be good training at high levels as you get older if your body cannot naturally handle it.

So you think someone is going to stop training for 6 months.......now, they do not even have the right to train?
Holy crap, you think that's realistic? All people with banned substances, like hydroxycut for example, now do not even have the right to go out for a run?......

You've missed the point.

It's not about what they are going to do, they'll do themselves. It's what are you going to do?

Are you going to just shrug your shoulders and let it go or are you going to take the moral high road call the tip line and/or talk with them about it?

That's the question. You and I aren't here to answer the big global picture. You and I can only do what we can do when we find out someone is doping.

The real question is what are you going to do to clean up your corner?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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Testosterone is a controlled substance at least in Canada where I practice. I don't think a naturopath could legitimately prescribe it. Who knows what is actually in the pellets naturopaths sometimes practice in some pretty sketchy ways. I would say buyer beware maybe dangerous.

If you take a condition like fatigue which has a lot of psychological components placebo effect is quite high. Placebo effect for sugar pills in anti-depressant trials is from 30-60 percent. So I suspect a fair number of people would feel better no matter what is in the pills. Those that do are likely the ones talking about their treatment. Those that don't less likely to do so

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Hi TriMom95 - my advice would be to report them and call the hotline posted. 10 ten is close to the podium especially when many IM events do have 5 places. And what if they do improve as a result of taking the pellets. They may decide they do want that coveted Kona spot or take a roll down from a Woman for Tri slot to the 70.3 Worlds. But whether or not they are top 10 or BOP it's still cheating and isn't fair to anyone or the sport. My thought is that if a man or woman feels well enough to compete in these events then I'm suspicious about the need for hormone therapy as a true medical need.

I'll be honest. I'm a 49 yr old woman who now does Ironmans. I certainly have days where I'm tired, feel like shit and don't even want to get out of bed when the alarm goes off. But that's just part of getting older. And it's also part of the long training process. It's normal. If someone feels fatigued and tired ALL the time, then it's time to take a break from triathlon and get their health in order and/or revisit their training process.

Even if these testosterone pellets were legal in triathlon, I would be very hesitant about them and wonder about the long term effects. I'd rather work with a reputable specialist and take a different approach. But that is beside the point here.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

I understand where you are coming from here but do you think MAYBE the guy that came in 99th in that 40 might care? You aren't concerned about your placing so it's no problem to simply disqualify yourself after completing each event, right? I think the better solution is to establish something like the wetsuit rule where above a certain temp you can still wear a wetsuit but aren't eligible for awards. I think it would suck to have to choose between a hobby that I really enjoy and a valid medical treatment that maintains or improves my quality of life. That's a choice I hope I'll never have to make. I primarily race to challenge myself. If the time comes when I need some sort of hormone therapy to improve my day to day life I'd be happy to declare that and still be allowed to enter events but not be eligible for placing or awards.

And you COULDN'T care less ;)

But if the are unaware and have no motive to cheat, what you going to do?
So the moral high ground is to tell a 15 hr participant is they are a moral cheat?
I have no problem standing for integrity and being clear on rules. I am not sure telling a guy in a local 10k that will finish on 60 minutes that he is a cheat is moral.
Here is a factual case. We have a guy who is in his late 70's that has no tie but partictapates, His 10k time was 88 minutes.
So I have a moral obligation to tell him he is a cheat and have him banned?

So if you did take something, would you be upset if someone turned you in.... I think if more people are turned in and now face bans, word will get out and people might get a TUE or not take PEDs.

If you do take something, decide not to get a TUE, get busted, there is no one to blame but yourself.

If I took something and you turned me in I could care less. If you want to call it cheating, I don't care. The point is this. Everyone here is comparing to kona slots. Or most. But to be consistant the reality is most cannot be controlled for mop,bop. Yes I agree that you turn in a top guy cheating to get a spot. But my above example of the 78 year old doing local 10ks at a walking pace? Its just not realistic to call that in or accuse him. Yes, the best case would be have a different category but that will not be done.
For the guy that asked, "well what if it matters to the guy that finished 100th instead of 99? Well that person has a whole other set of issues. I simply believe in the spirit of the law more than the letter. If you follow the letter, then be consistant, take the license number of everyone speeding on the highway.
This thread is started on testosterone, but doping is any banned substance. I bet at least 10% of every IM field has banned substances that they do not even know about. Hydroxycut was a very popular form of weight loss drug for example. It had DMAA in it, a banned substance.
There comes a point on the reality of thousands of thousands of individuals that are just out to participate that you just cannot properly control

If they're MOP or BOP it's not clear to me what they're stealing. I guess they're stealing places - someone who is behind them could move up a place. Perhaps 40th becomes 39th, 41st becomes 40th, etc. I guess that's a lot of theft? Whatever.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Ultimately you need to decide where you stand. For right or wrong.

It's pretty clear from your posts you don't really care about doing the right thing in sport in this regard and that's your prerogative.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Agreed. There are not varying degrees of cheating. It IS black or white.

IGNORE the below. I stand corrected (read below to see the correcting). I do not want misinformation on here.

Also, if I get tested they will just think I live a rockstar lifestyle and have too much money. NOTHING I can enhances my performance in any area of life haha oops





If it brings them to a normal range of T it isnt cheating. It is playing not at a disadvantage.

Now I have to disagree. The laws only say that it is illegal to race or compete while using PEDs. Nowhere does it say it is illegal to train on PEDs. Is it morally ethical? eh depends on what your morals are. I don't want man tits or other side effects so I will stick to light beer as my PED haha

Nowhere does it say it is illegal to train on PEDs. //

Only if you later race, or plan to race..However it might be illegal(as In the general law) to be taking some drugs like a lot of people do here, without prescriptions from proper docs...

Then explain to me why there is out of competition testing?

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

You I have always had a lot of respect for you on this forum. I am glad to see you can make a moral judgement about myself and my life.
Again, I said spirit of the law not letter.
Have you seen someone helped the last half mile of an IM at close to midnight? I am sure you have. Did you then asked for them to be disqualified?
Yes I agree on those competing for spots to be reported.
No, I do not agree that I should report in 70 year olds to be forbidden from sport trying to keep their lifestyle because they did not get a TUE to satisfy you.
Have you reported every drafter at every race you spectated?
I am signing off. Have a good day sir

Low testosterone in men as defined by the American Urological Association and Endocrine Society is <300 ng/dL (https://www.auanet.org/...deficiency-guideline, https://academic.oup.com/...e/103/5/1715/4939465). It's estimated about 1/3 of men using testosterone supplementation don't meet the clinical criteria. For women, the normal range is 15-70 ng/dL.

I highly doubt a naturopath is following any sort of clinical guidelines. Not to mention if they've had any sort of lab work to see what their real levels are. I've had plenty of conversations with other 40+ male athletes trying to justify using testosterone supplementation because they were below 500 ng/dL. Um, yeah, sure dude...you look more cut then guys in their 20s. You SO have hypogonadism.

As stated above, if this athletes were truly in the range of high finishes, etc., reporting them to tip lines, etc. would seem valid to me. I automatically assume some of the people I race against are "juiced" even if they aren't anywhere near a podium. All I know is that I'm racing clean...wait, I do drink Dt. Mt. Dew...is that legal?

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WHOA. No one listen to Twinkie. This is an obfuscation that needs to be killed outright. And, Twinkie, you need some serious education. There is a whole range of PEDs that are banned in and out of competition. Screenshot below for clarity. Could "at all times" not be more clear? If you click on the top section, you'll eventually find testosterone, the substance in question on this thread.

Edit: And by "law" I'm assuming we mean "anti-doping rule" and by "illegal" we mean "banned by WADA and its satellites."

Serious mental gymnastics going on here. It is cheating plain and simple. Look at the rules. Banned at all times. Not only that, but gains you make by taking PEDs stay with you in large parts.

I've always felt cheating was black and white. Drafting or using PED's regardless of your motivation or lack of education is cheating. Everyone should be caught and the appropriate sanctions given. The same rules apply to every athlete who signs up and competes regardless of finishing time and the rules apply in and out of competition. I have called the USADA hotline for athletes I suspect are using and are knocking on top finishing places. That has always been my stance.

These recent interactions with people I know using these pellets prescribed by naturopaths, which I'm not a fan of, has blurred some lines that have always been very clear.

As per my original post:
- I sent the article on the risks associated with testosterone supplementation posted in this thread to 2 of the people on my "list". One said thank you, and is not competing at this time but wants to in the future. The other has not used pellets for a few years and he was one of the top 10 athletes.
- The other top 10 finisher is not competing this year. In the future if she does compete again I will likely call USADA but only after I talk to her.
- The one who is ill and wants to race this year has me the most conflicted. I told him its against the rules to train and race with T supplementation. He appreciated the information and truly had no idea. He is healthy now with whatever he's doing though, and to take that away if he wants to race has created that blurry line of right vs wrong for me. He won't podium but he will beat others in the race. He's also healthy for the first time in a few years and excited to test himself.

For the first time ever I'm seeing merit to the idea of having two categories of athletes in our sport like they do in weight lifting. You self declare your intentions when you register and you are identified in results as being recreational or competitive and those two categories are clearly defined. Should the 75 year old finishing a 10k in 88 min be called out for hormone replacement? I don't really think he/ she should. Then again, maybe he's beating another 75 year old who is not using PED's. Our hormones change as we age. That's why we have age group racing. I can't compete against someone 20 years younger than me. (Or most can't.) And hormones are a part of that.

I have learned a lot from the comments above. It is wrong to use PED's no matter what, but I've softened a bit as to who the rules really matter for.

The rules are black and white. Realisticlly trying to enforce is a complete other issue. As my previous example, where I was told I do not have respect for sport. We have a 78 year old man who I know is on a banned substance for health, who did a large sanctioned 10k. He made his goal of under 90 minutes. Should he be banned and told he should not participate because he did not go through the protocol for a TUE? He could. If you really follow th letter of the law, he should never ever be allowed to do a 5k or 10k again. Is this realistic. Is it fair? I guess it is if universally enforced.
There is a huge difference it what is happening today in participation and racing for spots. There are two options. Universally kick out Everyone, no matter age, handicap whatever that does not go through proper protocol. Or realize there is a grey area on enforcement.
I was told, I do not know how true, that there was a 10k I cheated because I received cortisone shots in my knees do to injury 5 months previous. Trying Synvisc in my joints now. I guess should never participate in an event again.

Thank you so much for calling the hotline. You did the right thing. I'll admit it hits home to me personally as an older woman who does Ironman branded events. I was thinking about this a lot today. Even if I wasn't directly affected by dopers this would still matter to me. I do want the sport to be clean and fair for everyone involved. I'm also a stickler for rules and don't like to see them broken.

To everyone else :-) I have always believed apathy is more dangerous than anything else in our society. Stand up and speak out against what you believe isn't fair or just. I am quite opinionated and passionate about so many social issues that don't directly affect me as an old, white, straight lady. i.e - women's right to choose, immigration issues,marriage equality, equal rights regardless of color, sex, religion, etc. I certainly don't place doping on the same level as these social issues, just trying to make a point about standing up for what's right even if it doesn't directly affect you. OK I'll get off my little soap box now. I'm ready for the virtual tomatoes ;-)

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

He is healthy now with whatever he's doing though, and to take that away if he wants to race has created that blurry line of right vs wrong for me.//

This is what TUE's are for, it should not be blurry for you, they have accounted for people like your friend here...

So many people keep spouting on about TUE's, but the reality is they are very difficult to obtain, and almost never given out for testosterone, correct??

Regardless, seems to me that WTC isn't wasting their time trying to pop AG'ers anyway, unless they get a call reporting someone and are forced to act.

I'm with Kenny, I don't give a crap what the guy/gal in 50th place is on. I, like most people I believe, go to these races for myself, to compete against myself. I hate the idea of someone having to choose to not participate because they want/need something for their personal health.

Correct, and for a very good reason. You can find all the documentation on the WADA site - basically testosterone provides a big advantage and accordingly requires very strong reasons to justify the granting of a TUE. The TUE rules are also clear on dosage. These people can go through the TUE process if they want, if they do not get granted one what does it say? Seems to me that it says their condition isn't bad enough to justify being allowed to take testosterone and compete.

It's one thing having someone take gear and coming 50th, but what if it is someone coming top 5 who gets a roll down spot? The post mentioned that these people were top 10 after all. That's simply not fair.

Despite taking a pretty hard view on doping, I do think there should be some accommodation for I also don't like the idea of not being able to take part due to a health issue. But there is a difference between participating and competing. Maybe there should be something that you can tick to say 'I'm taking a PED', which would mean that you were still allowed to participate but not given a placing? Feel that is a fair way to go about things while also dealing with the "I'm not racing, just taking part argument", though somehow I think that some of the people espousing it would still complain, undermining that argument really.

My comments were more towards the MOP/BOP participants whom are possibly expected to make a choice between taking a medication they or their docs feel they need, and participating.
For podium and WC spots, I absolutely agree those should be tested.

That's fair. I still stand by the view that there should be a mechanism by which you can be open about it and still take part, while not getting a placing. If you are there to participate you should not be denied from doing so, but you should not get an official placing. Again, if you aren't there to race this shouldn't be an issue of course.

Not illegal, but prohibited. Out of competition drug testing is a thing.

What the OP describes is very black and white; it's cheating. these cheaters should be reported, their names made public, and if they either decline to submit to a drug test, or fail a drug test, should be banned for life.

There can be no room for interpritation, no wiggle room, and no exceptions.
Until PED use is treated like the cheating--fraud--which it is, it will continue.
And to Desert Dude's point: it robs other competitors of a fair chance to compete, and it robs others of a result which they earned with out pharma help, no matter what those results are.

TO THE OP: REPORT THESE CHEATERS. IT'S YOUR OBLIGATION. IT'S THE ONLY RIGHT THING TO DO.

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Except for maybe the RCTUE, which is presumably what would apply here. It's unclear on that one.

I had mine tested and it was 800 (age 51) which my wife said it explains why I chase her around a lot. Unfortunately for me she is a triathlete and she is FAST!

it's a side note, but i get a kick out of this line which almost always comes up in these discussions about amateur athletes in middle age who are doping.

"i feel sort tired" or "i don't recover as well from tough workouts" is cited as if it's some sort of pathology, and then people say with amazement, "gee, i feel better on these drugs!"

i mean yeah, you'd feel 'better' if you hoovered a rail of cocaine, too, and would probably recovery quicker or ward off injury better if you took EPO, anabolics, or HGH.

i think it boils down to people looking for some sort of quasi-medical justification for their behaviour. i'm fine with that too, as long as we're transparent about it.

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This is it right here. Unless youre actually competing to win something, the spirit of the rules really aren't intended for you. Someone taking a medication they need for an autoimmune disease in order to lead a healthy, longer life should not preclude them from participating in their hobby. It certainly doesn't impact the people finishing an ironman in 14 hours.

Well there is a difference between taking a medication you need to survive (which is why there is a TUE process) and taking something so that you can reverse the effects of getting older. You don't NEED to "feel better faster" after a hard workout.

That said, I am comfortable with the idea that people report these MOP/BOP dopers to the correct authority, and I am also OK with that authority basically saying "thanks for reporting, but in this case we aren't going to spend the resources to go after them".

Where does the competition/participation line lie though? The post concerns people who are top 10, so should the spirit of the rules apply to them? Even if they are still just 'participating', it's fair to say that most of the people in the standings around them are not.

It's one thing saying it's OK if you do a 14 hour IM, but the case in question is very different.

Not illegal, but prohibited. Out of competition drug testing is a thing. //

Of course it can be illegal, all those trips to Mexico, or in the comfort of your home on the internet to buy your gear are absolutely illegal. And the point I was making in response to the OP was if you dont ever race(and thus not interfering with anyones place) and just train on drugs, then do we really care? I suppose if you joined USAT or any of the other organizations that control sport, you could be tested out of competition, so it could be a thing I guess. But if you "never" race, probably keeping your head low and probably not get whacked..Unless someone gets perturbed that you beat them on the Saturday training ride.

Wow, I had no idea "naturopathic" kooks could prescribe medication, but apparently they can.

If you really need T therapy for non sports performance reasons, you shouldn't be banned from ever participating in athletic hobbies. But if you happen to win something significant, should you DQ yourself? I don't know. Maybe.

If you take 3rd in your age group at a local event, I wouldn't bother going through the trouble and embarrassment to DQ even though you cheated the 4th place guy out of their spot. But if you're gunning for a national age-group championship with others who are taking it very seriously, that's over the line.

Ryan Hall had to retire at a young age to go on T therapy because he couldn't get his low T treated and still legally compete. He now still does some events, but is not seriously trying to win anything, and obviously wouldn't do something that drug tests. Plus he's put on 60 lbs and fancies himself a weight-lifter now.

Some people are so casual about T therapy even though it's a big deal. My wife took me to her MD, who specializes in the kind of stuff that those of us in our 50s and 60s face. He teeters on the naturopathic kookiness edge btw. He discussed T therapy with me and he gave me some information on it. It's a big big deal. Pretty much once you start you can never go back. Turns out I didn't need it, but I would put it off until it's really critical before I considered it.

If they insist on racing and say that they don't care about their place then ask them why they wear a timing chip. If they are going to cheat and have any desire to limit their impact on others then put the bib on and leave the chip in transition. This way they won't be in the results. They are in the race and might impact others' strategy but that can't be avoided if they insist on signing up. They have complete control over whether or not they show in the results.

I think a good idea might be to alter the structure of races, allowing people to sign up for either a competition-class race or a grand-fondo non-competitive event. Grand Fondo division would allow drafting, no testing, basically fewer rules, more relaxed vibe and you would only get a finishers medal, post race (mid-race??) food and a bunch of memories. Competitive allows you to get awards for placing, WC qualification, official results, all the other perks.

If people go for that, it could also alleviate course congestion issues, which is a big problem.

I'd be happy with signing up for that, I couldn't tell you now where I placed or what my times were in any of my previous triathlons. And to not have to deal with "am I legal distance" for 2.5 hours would be well worth it...

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Those of us in their 50s and 60s face the natural effects of aging. They are artificially taking drugs and hormones to counter some of these effects. To feel better, get stronger and faster, recover better, etc. The PEDs work. They probably work even better on old person. You say it's ok if they are MOP, but pretty soon the MOP guy who isn't using ends up BOP, because everyone is doing it! So now he needs PEDs too. The young athlete has just as viable an excuse to take PEDs. To feel better, handle the high training load and recover better, etc. Anti-fatigue or anti-aging, it's all the same rationalizing BS. If you want to take this stuff for "health reasons" (what a joke), then fine... but don't race.

Ya, it's a big deal. There are negative long term side effects and dependencies. Same with nearly all drug therapies.

Docs are the pushers. There are no shortage of junkies.

They do a good job of testing the people who are winning and placing high, that's who the protocol is designed to catch. Unless we want to add massive amounts of money to race entry fees to try to catch Betty for taking T and placing 912th.

Then you continue to train smarter and harder, and set PRs for yourself. You stay friends with them and remain happy for them that their health has improved and that they're happy. Or that's what I'd do anyway. I'm an outlier, but I really couldn't care less what anyone else is doing. Why trouble yourself with it?

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Serious question. You remember Blazeman. Did an IM while dying. If....IF, not saying anything in his system, but if he had meds in his system at the time to help him live longer when he rolled across the finish...……..was He a cheat, cheating anyone that finished in a position behind him?

Once again, people with serious and real illness, get TUE's. He certainly would have gotten one, maybe he did, I dont know. He certainly could have gotten a retro one too, I hear that is a thing now.. So no, he was not a cheater. He was an inspiration to a lot of people, and brought some great awareness to his cause...

Not sure why a few of you are looking for the furthest outliers to somehow justify the majority. I understand AG doping is a touchy subject, especially amongst the older athletes either on, or looking at the longevity route...No one wants to feel they are a cheater, so the human psyche will do triple backflips to avoid going down that path...

" hoovered a rail of cocaine," Completely off topic: lron_mike you've got a way with words. Masterpiece.

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Karen ST Concierge

By no means am I looking for a reason to justify the majority. Not at all. As I said before anyone with even a sniff of the top should be reported. Everyone knows the type walking around that they are bragging to qualify.....or as Ruff put it, taking shit to just slow the aging. That is B.S. ...I agree with that completely.

As I said for myself I just got tested and waiting for the third test on my T. Both myself and my Doctor in general do not believe in raising my T, since I have no other symptoms at this time......but I go in on June 13. If that they find that it is so low because of something else that needs treatment for health , should I just quit what am signed up for?
I have Telluride 38 Mile and Run Rabbit Run 100 then in Sept. On ultra sign up my projected time is AFTER the cutoff.
So if Doctor puts me on something, per this thread, I am a cheat.
I will NOT take anything for sport improvement. I am just an old fart with arthritis trying to stay active

Yes, but as per the rules (not this thread). And very few doctors know or care about the rules about doping in competitive sports. A prescription is not a TUE.

So if Doctor puts me on something, per this thread, I am a cheat.
I will NOT take anything for sport improvement. I am just an old fart with arthritis trying to stay active


I think this is the 4th time I have said this, but once again. If you have an illness that requires T supplementation, then you can get a TUE and race, you are not a cheater. Now the caveat of that is, most doctors are prescribing T like it was some harmless candy. So the drug enforcement agencies are on to this, so they have strict guidelines as to who is really sick and in need of these drugs. So I hope you doc is not one of these, they just cannot always be trusted these days..You need to take some control of your own health, and use the doc's as a top source of information. But now we also have the internet, 100's of other doctors opinions at our fingertips, and just about every study ever done right there in front of us. Lets not be lazy...

I'm old too, probably could have had a dozen docs give me the goods over the past decade. But so far, I'm just getting older, slower, things hurt more, recover less, and generally I just feel a lot more tired than I used to. But I cannot attribute any of these symptoms to anything other than getting older, and trying to stay somewhat of an athlete. If it got worse to the point of degrading my lifestyle with my family, well then I would start to look at these other things, And too bad for me, I will be regulated to fun runs and gran fondos. Plenty of non sanctioned races to keep you busy, no need to muddy up the sports that are more competitive, and of course I dont want to be a cheater..(-;

It's not sanctioned so a TUE does nothing. Per this thread, I am just to drop.out and never enter even a local 10k again.....ok

I think there's something missed here.
SOME PEDs are banned totally (e.g. EPO).
Some are only banned in-competition (but not out-of-comp).
Some can be used either in and/or out of comp, with a TUE, just depending on what it is.

And some stuff is OK within limits (eg some asthma inhalers) but not beyond certain doses.

But see I think if it is non sanctioned, I do not believe it is with the Spirit of sport if someone is doped to the gills.
I am not sure if my 100 is sanctioned. If so i would not be able to get a TUE in time. I am not going to drop doing it IF for some reason I am on something that would text positive.
I am just blown away. We had a very respected member already say that a 78 year old doing a 10k in 90 minutes should be disqualified if not proper documentation...
I am the minority. If anyone wants to bring up this thread after June 13, I will tell them what my Doctor said and if taking something they can call the race Director in my 100.

The difference between BOP and FOP gets kinda weird in the older age groups. I'm 66, I've been an average, maybe slightly above average swimmer and biker most of my life but because I'm still out there competing I have a shot at my AG podium. Why? because all my competitors were sidelined by life somewhere along the way. All those kids in my high school gym class who could kick my ass back then are 60 lbs overweight and drink too much, or something. Anyway for those of us who are left in the arena, we're all low T, any outside help would put us ahead by a huge margin. I would be absolutely furious if I were to be knocked off the podium by some guy who justified in his own mind that his T was dangerously low and he needed a supplement. I'd be almost as furious if I finished 5th instead of 4th.

So far I've lived through a number of things that should have put me in the grave, I deserve a fair chance for glory and I don't want to have to cheat to get there.

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"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

You say you have no symptoms... which means you obviously aren't in need of T. If T is low because of something else that is wrong, why wouldn't you address that "something else"?

In my case I am totally fine if I has no results...
Again, using things to fight of aging cause we all have low T....I agree.
They do not know why my readings are so low when I have no other symptoms. Again, I said I would not take it solely because the number is low. But on the 13th, if I am given anything for health, I am not dropping out of what I signed up for. ...if it was an IM, I would never even take a roll down.....but I am not stopping when my goal in a 100 will be at least 16 hours after the leaders

I have no idea. As of right now the Doctor has no idea. My first two texts were 49 and 45 I think.
My point was if for whatever reason the give me anything, not necessarily T, there is no time for a TUE,, not even sure what kind a sanction for a 100....but after all this training , with arthritis and goal to make cutoff, I am not going to cancel.
Again, as of now, both myself and the Dr think artificial boosting of T is a bad thing to do

My point was if for whatever reason the give me anything, not necessarily T, there is no time for a TUE,, not even sure what kind a sanction for a 100....but after all this training , with arthritis and goal to make cutoff, I am not going to cancel. //

I think you are making"your" situation a lot more complicated than it has to be, and it appears you are putting some stress into this. Your 100 ride is most likely fine to ride, no matter what. your doc gives you. And even if it were, and you were a letter of the law kind of guy, I think you could get a retroactive TUE if you so choose to. At the very least, that process would tell you if your doc is correct, somewhere in-between, or completely oblivious to drugs and the connection to sport.


So dont worry about this, plan on having a great ride, and things will sort themselves out later on. You are kind of caught up in the middle of this debate, but reality is that you are really just on the fringe. Like I tell my kids, dont worry about stuff that hasn't happened yet, and may never happen!!! (-;

Thank You......its a 100 mile ultra. My goal is to average 21 minutes per mile. :o)

Well if 21 minutes per mile is you goal for cycling a 100, you better have a good night light!!!! (-;

Well since it running,walking in the mountains, I will need a light, but if they give me drugs that allow me to glow I will have an advantage

Ya, after I hit reply thinking you meant 21 miles per hour, dawned on me that you were talking about running. Night lite either way!! But of course 100 miles is way more studly and time consuming that a century ride, so good luck with that one. I have given up any ambitions of running long, just seems too damaging in my mid 60's. But every once in awhile I do think about the Boston Marathon, just wish I didnt have to run one to get there..I was a pretty decent long distance runner on very little mileage in the old days, wonder sometimes if that is still true all these years later...

Who said they should be banned? On a brief skim through the thread you're the only one I saw mentioning a ban in respect to your example.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Sir, your reply to my example of the 78 year old was that my response was I did care about the right thing in sport.
So it appeared that I should report the 78 year old to do the right thing about sport.
I think the right thing in sport, is to clap bravo to the 78 year old who still improves his health.
I see through this thread that I am perceived as wrong. I just never thought people would think bop people as cheaters. I was wrong.

I'm sure it's like beating a dead horse, and I have many stories but this one really was surprising to me.

3-4 years ago I'm sitting around a table at a coffee shop with a group of recreational triathletes, because I was there that day and it was news at the time people were talking about Lance and doping in cycling/triathlon/running and on and on. I diplomatically said that I had seen some stuff, and it probably goes on, but I don't know know who and how these days, also we should be careful taking Holy stances when a lot of people dope right in town here, and we don't think too much of that. They asked how, I said hormonally and it's a big help. A couple people interrupted me and said they don't mean T or HGH as that's not really doping, that's just what people need to be normal. As it turns out, I had painted myself into a corner when 9 of let's say 12 at the table admitted to using T as part of their "health program" on a regular basis. Pellets, cream, pills, whatever. Were the other 3 just not admitting they too were doing it? I didn't know what to say, many of them people I knew pretty well. I'd say 8 or more had pinned on a number in the last year. It was pretty depressing.

The only other story I have is that over the last 5 years I've seen maybe one person per year make significant physical and ability changes within my circle in the local triathlon world. If it's a friend, I congratulate them on their progress, I then almost always ask about their changes to become leaner/faster. In all five instances it was followed with a,"Well, as a matter of fact, I went and got tested and it turns out this whole time I've had Low-T!!!" Again, super depressing, I've kind of accepted it as the norm. -L

First....how are you Lewis. You probably dont remember me, I used to bike with Renee Coppock, did IM with Laura Esp , Pam Harder and Jen Drinkwalter. Hope you are well

Damn I’d be pissed. The local ones are the only ones I’ll ever win and being on the podium is really important to me. Winning a local 10k changed my entire outlook on the sport. I may never win one again.

There’s a lot of elitism on this board. I do IM but won’t be top ten probably ever, but my local races are super competitive, we all want to do well. You can’t dope ant take my podium spot. No way.

Doing well! Visiting my dad right now so in Billings hitting masters still with Mike Burton like the old days down at the Y. Are you still racing and in Montana?

Just doing ultras now. Got in bridger ridge run. The telluride 38...RRR 100
Maybe I will see you at the Y...have not swam in awhile, lost upper body weight. Enjoy the holiday

Miss the old Masters when Mike was leading it

Females can't get a TUE for Testosterone, nd the rules on men getting one are pretty strict.

Most national antidoping agencies allow anonymous reporting. If the report is acted on they do a target test on the athlete. If I knew for sure someone was for sure cheating I'd have a hard time being social with them knowing that and would have a hard time holding that kind of knowledge in.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I think you'd do well to read up on the actual status of what you're taking, and get a little bit more knowledge.

Your 10k was fine: your cortisone injection was OOC

Your other stuff is fine. Look on Global DRO under Hyaluronate. It is legal in and out of competition. https://www.globaldro.com/...NEM0VnBzcVRPeVd3VHk1

As to the other bloke: it's a clear protocol. Testosterone supps are prohibited in and out of competition without TUE or RTUE. Apply for an RTUE, or don't race. If you're looking for a goal time, just go and measure out a damn course and run the thing.

Maybe someone's dream at the same race was to finish top ten for once in their life and finished 11th. You really should report them.

I have a colleague who has a pellet every 3 months to manage high risk of hormonally mediated breast cancer. Not sure how that works but she said she also feels great, lifting more weight in her (recreational only) training and recovering better. Additionally it was prescribed by a specialist gynaecologist and she had to sign a legal declaration at the medical practice that she would not participate in any sports or events where testosterone is considered performance enhancing or illegal in any way.
She has no intention of competing but used to race and knows full well it's a banned substance. She has chosen her health over any future competitions. These people know that, whether they want to podium or not, it's still cheating - and it's taking away a place from someone who is racing clean - whether that be podium, top 10 or anywhere really. Not cool to continue to compete. AND I agree with the posters questioning the authority of a naturopath to prescribe and insert these - it's a medical procedure under local anaesthetic with sutures! I would welcome more random testing of age groupers by WADA and would be willing to pay a bit more in entry fee to accommodate that - entry fees cost that much anyway, what's a bit more for a cleaner competition!

I don't think anyone would begrudge a 78 year old taking steps to improve their health.

What people do begrudge is them then racing while taking substances that give them an unfair advantage over others in their age group. Furthermore, you use the emotive story of a 78 year old, but what when it's a 28 year old who is taking it for health reasons but also competing for a Kona spot?

By all means act to improve your health, but don't compete. It's also worth noting that retroactive TUEs exist.

Measure out a 100 Mile in the mountains unsupported. Sure.
I do not do what people on the internet tell me. Sorry.
If. ..IF I need to take something that would cause me to pee hot, I am not dropping out.

And as everyone has said repeatedly, if you NEED something that makes you pee hot, you can get a TUE (proactively or retroactively) for it.

But as it stands your doctor has seemingly said you don't need anything so I'm not sure what you are getting all upset about. At the end of the day, if you are fit and healthy enough to even enter a 100 miler, you probably aren't in desperate need of medication that's prohibited.

I’m hearing a lot of “wah, wah, me me “ on this thread. I hear less whining from my 3 year old.

You may not want to play by the rules because you’re too special for them to apply to you, but there are lots of people who decide that the rules are important and follow them, including not entering if they are unable to comply. You don’t like the rules, don’t sign up.

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Fair enough.

But it's a question as to why you're interested in competition only on your own terms and you feel that if your desires to do something override the rules.

That's the point . I had no idea that two months before an event (not a race, not sure if Ultra's take TUE's for people just participating). If for some reason I am given some med, I am not changing all my plans. Now if it is possible to make sure I am not in results fine....but if you go back and look at what I wrote.
Its black and white but enforcing, especially the Spirit of the law is not realistic. Should everyone be reporte who drives 1 mph over the speed limit?

If I had any chance to be even n the top 20% I get it. Cut off time is 36 hrs. Ultra sign up has my predicted time past that. If for some technicality t6 to 8 weeks I am prescribed anything for a non sanctioned event, I could care less what slowtwitchers think.

I did not enter the 100 to compete against others. It was a goal to see if I can finish. No awards. No spots. And I already reserved rooms and have trained for a year. Now I find out I may have a health issue, which again, I have no desire or will I take something for performance reasons, and its to close to guarantee a TUE.


This is exactly why I left the tri scene and went to Ultra's. Wish you all would really at a race show your interity and at an IM watch the the 17 hour people and test them. But youo all are fine for signing up for races that have blatent drafting......and remember at a race if your child runs out and gives you a drink of water....you are a cheater

Like you I was on the old board, then to this one when it started, Also Gordo's old site. I can see with my beliefs this is not the place for me anymore. I am just a cheat, so I will remove myself from the community. Good day

If it's a participation event, no-one gives a hoot.

If its a race, the rules apply to everyone. Its up to you to know what the rules are for that specific event. If the non-sanctioned race says that the USADA/WADA code is applicable to the event, then that's the rules for everyone, FOP to BOP. Don't like them, don't sign up. Life happens and you can't comply, drop out. It really IS black and white.

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Oh, so non sanctioned you can dope to the gills,,,,,sure is black and white. Glad to see non sanctioned events its ok to dope for you

re-read what I wrote.

if it's a non-sanctioned RACE, and the race organizer says that you must be clean (by whatever standard...) then that's the rules. That means you may not compete if you are "doped to the gills".

If it's a participation event. like a charity ride, then no-one cares if you are doped up. You're just there to ride, not compete.

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As a further thought on this, I don't really care about the "spirit of the law" (and it's a rule as it pertains to doping regs, not a law, but I digress...). I care about the letter of the law. If the spirit of the law is different from the letter, perhaps due to changing circumstances, then the letter should be changed to match the spirit. But if the letter is not changed, then the working assumption needs to be that the letter of the law reflects the spirit of the law, or else it would be different. "spirit of the law" arguments always seem to me to be a little bit of trying to argue why the rules should apply to "those people over there" but not to me. It's a way of applying your own interpretation to something that you might not like the idea of as it's written.

Speeding is an interesting example. I usually drive at the speed limit, maybe 5 km/h over (my speedo reads a little lower than actual according to my GPS). On the rare occasion that I do go over the limit, I do it because I know I won't get caught. However, I am well aware that I am in the wrong for doing so. My wife says I drive like a grandpa. Speeding enforcement is a matter of practicality and limited resources, rather than "spirit". The spirit of the 100 km/h speed limit isn't to say that's its actually OK to drive at 120. 100 is the limit, anything above that and you can be ticketed. However, there are only so many police officers available to hand out tickets, and so many people speed that they may only start handing out tickets over 120 km/h so that they catch the worst offenders. That's not the same as saying that anything within 101-120 km/h is in the "spirit of the law". It's simply down to practicality and risk.

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Follow that through...……...IF, I have to take something for 6 months, I should never do a large 10k with my friends, evn if walking...…….you guys are so full of shit.

I'm not full of shit. I am pretty harsh with some things, and I readily admit it...

I wouldn't report that person, and they'd likely never be tested so there are no consequences to them, but they shouldn't be signing up.

and again, there's the whole RTUE and ability to get one retroactively. So if you actually NEED the medication, talk to your doc about seeing if you can stay within the drugs that are OK instead of banned (consult GlobalDRO, it's easy) and if that's not possible, then you would likely be eligible for a RTUE. If you're eligible for it, then I don't see any need to go and get it in advance since you can get it retroactively. Compete all you want....

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You win, Kenney. There are endless ways to rationalize cheating. Go for it.

Some people on here are funny. I can't believe someone actually drives the speed limit.

I'm probably the only one here.... I used to be constantly speeding 20-30 over, I've slowed down a lot.

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No unfortunately you are. This is black and white. You want to do a 10k with friends? Organize it yourself outside of anything sanctioned. Take meds as much as you want. Just don't do sanctioned events where it is not allowed.

You are dense and defensive mate. Like you said this place isn't for you anymore so kindly leave.

It's probably for the best that we all drive the speed limit, but here in the DC/Baltimore Metro area driving the speed limit is unheard of. That's why I had to have a chuckle ;)

With the size of the potholes on our highways, it makes no sense to drive too fast. I've destroyed 2 rims in the last 3 years in the craters around here that I didn't notice until the last second, and a number of near misses. If I drove faster, I would have killed even more rims...

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I am leaving. Thank you.
I will remember that I am a cheat.
I know you will all be hoping I do not make the 36 hour cutoff.
For those saying I can get a back dated TUE. there would be no guarantee of that, so I guess I should bag it.
Good day

when you invite other people's opinions, you may not like the answers you get.

you don't want to risk having a backdated TUE rejected, then go through the process to obtain one in advance. If you're denied, don't sign up.

But yeah, if you compete while on PED's, then you are a cheat. Even if you're not on the podium, you are cheating someone out of a higher place, and/or you are diminishing the achievement of just finishing a tough event (but everyone is entitled to be a "winner", right?).

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Low T is not an illness, it is a symptom of aging and overtraining. Once your race is over ease up the training and watch your levels rise again. It's not like taking warfarin for a heart condition, it isn't essential. In fact, as we age we produce less T and women less oestrogen, it is what our bodies are meant to do, the symptoms we may not like, but they are natural, adding hormones could be a reason why we have so many other diseases now. Don't f... with nature.

Nope. I said I agree with self reporting. I agree with having no results.
I trained to try to make a cutoff. I will not take anything for performance.
If for health I am advised to take something, nope, I am not dropping out I'd I cannot get a TUE in time.

I guess this means you're not really leaving, then?

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If that’s the case, and you want to complete the event, do the event and self report to give yourself a DNF. That’s fine, it’s not cheating. If you let the result stand, it’s cheating.

Think of it like declaring your score in golf.

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It's like the 90s in pro cycling. Everyone is juiced... because everyone else is doing it....

When guys in their 60s who have been racing for decades, are stronger than they've ever been... ya, that ain't right.

But it must be healthy if it makes you feel better, right?...;)

I wonder if psychiatrists can prescribe T for mental health...

When guys in their 60s who have been racing for decades, are stronger than they've ever been... ya, that ain't right. ///

I have been noticing this for the past 20 years. I have been swimming in masters nationals off and on since I was 30. Now I'm in the 60+ and it is harder than it ever was in the younger age groups to hit top 10. Just for kicks, here are a couple events I swim, and the 10th place time it took to podium(score) in the 400IM and 200 breastroke. Pretty sure all the other events would have similar characteristcs. Some years there weren't even enough 60 year olds to fill out events.

So for sure there are many circumstances affecting these times, pools, suits, other technology that is outside of the human that got faster, but not sure it can account for all of these gains by the old dudes...

400IM. 200 Breastroke. 10th place times at spring nationals
2019-- 5;16. 2;42
2018--5;29. 2;41
2017--5;47. 2;49
2016--6;07. 3;03
2001--6;41. 3;15(8th, last place)
1995--6;06(only 4 finishers) 3;43(9th last place)
1990--6;37. 3;53(9th last place)

So not only are guys getting a lot faster, but more and more are able to just compete. 60+ is becoming one of the larger age groups, next to the ones just below it in the 50+...

I think at least "some" of that was that masters swimming wasn't really a thing until relatively recently. When I graduated in '93, I had never heard of masters swimming. So the talent pool is definitely deeper than it was back then.

It would be interesting to see where the people came from, then vs now. I suspect that back then it was more SoCal / Arizona / Nevada based athletes, and maybe Florida, and now it's much more spread out.

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I think at least "some" of that was that masters swimming wasn't really a thing until relatively recently. When I graduated in '93, I had never heard of masters swimming. So the talent pool is definitely deeper than it was back then. //

Well why would you hear about it, you were in college. When I was in college it wasn't a thing either, but in 93 me and all my swim buddies were fully involved in masters swimming. Of course it has grown in numbers since then, but I believe the total # of swimmers to do nationals has been pretty constant for awhile. In fact, there were less this year than last by a few. Like I said, there are tons of reasons for all this improvement, but are they all legit? Seems funny to me that the times got so much faster, not just for 10t, but the pointy end too, since the longevity revolution that began about 15 to 20 years ago.. You know that conversation that guy had with all his cycling buddies and them all admitting taking stuff, bet it would be similar with a group of 50+ something swimmers too...


I mean we have 65+ year olds going 4;30 in the 400IM. Does that seem possible in the real world??

I'm really talking about after I graduated, I kinda wanted to keep swimming but there weren't any real options then.

As for the 400IM times, you guys swim in a bathtub. What's that in a real pool? ;-)

edit - and I'm sure you're right about the prevalence of PED's in masters swimming. 'scuze me while I put my rose-coloured glasses back on....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

It's a common idiom, but it would abolish the entirety of modern medicine, no?

But to your point, nothing is free, in that we'll never completely elucidate all off-target effects (aka side effects) and how those influence health by other mechanisms. For many disorders, it's worth the risk; for others it's not.

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