That will be all sorts of fun! Interesting that race is not one of the criteria. I see this as hastening the end of standardized tests.

Already people are figuring out how to game the system

Standardized test have always been a joke, and have largely cemented advantages that kids in affluent/educated families have. It is also astonishing how much specialized tutoring and test prep can improve scores.

There's been some very interesting studies at medical schools in the UK where kids from specific post codes receive lower offers than say, Eton, for example

At the end of the first year of medical school and from there on out, they score as well as there peers

Leaving aside buying a place at uni. It's unquestionably harder for kids in shit schools to score as highly as those at places like Eton / Harrow / rodean where kids are prepared for uni from birth

While I'm not a fan of it..........you realize the article you linked said there are 15 parameters. If you look at race and gender, you're at 2 of 15.

It appears you're interested in race. So, 1 in 15. Not sure if that one is weighted heavier than all the 14 other factors, but it is still just one.

So, what basis do you have for being so alarmed.......based on race?

In theory, if race is just one of 15 factors.......impoverished white males stand to meet perhaps at least 12 to 13 parameters of 15. So, not a bad shake.

Um race isn't one of the 15 criteria?

they're already doing it - just find a doctor/therapist to write up an excuse and your kid can get extra time to take the test...

From one of the wealthier suburbs of Chicago....
https://newtriernews.org/...es-national-average/

"According to documents posted on New Trier’s website, 226 of 935, or 24 percent, of Juniors taking April’s school wide ACT received some sort of accommodation for the test, a number confirmed by administrative staff."

national average is for 5% of Juniors to get accomodation.

the admissions officers I'm aware of are very well able to parse a kid's adversity score without an adversity score. They know the schools, or get to know them.

Possibly this benefits offices that do less intensive reads of applicants. Or it's mainly cosmetic.

Don't see very much changing as a result, besides another level of angst and paranoia for already apeshit parents of good but not stellar applicants.

Should I even ask why you're reading a HS paper?

I personally feel all accommodation should be abolished

You misunderstood. I am not alarmed that they are gaming the system based on race. nor on Zip Code. Nor parents income. Nor on any other factor.
I am alarmed that they are gaming the system. period. I have seen what planned equality initiatives do - in the long run they hurt those they are supposed to help.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

Fixed it for you.

Well the scoring will be secret so we don’t know what the criteria really is.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

When I read stuff like this before, I used to think, "Wait until they get into the real world and everyone only cares about results and not where you came from. These kids are gonna get creamed."

Now, knowing the "real world" we live in, I think, "Why did it take so long for the SATs to add non-performance based criteria?"

I just hope they let me know my airplane pilot's or heart doctor's adversity score.

That's already been happening for a while. Schools have seen that performance in college does not align with SAT performance. My daughter just went through the application process and SAT's were optional at a lot of very good schools, e.g., Bates and Bowdoin.

My wife and I went to Cal Poly SLO, so we would like our sons to go there too.

They accept students mostly based on grade point average and SAT score.

My older son is interested in computer engineering. For that college, the average GPA is 4.21 and the average SAT score is 1,481.

Google says the average SAT for Cal Poly slo is 1293.

The engineering college has an average of 1,481.

https://admissions.calpoly.edu/prospective/profile.html

That's impressive. My brother went there and I don't remember it being that hard to get into. But that was in the 80's.

It wasn't that hard to get into. I know a lot of people that went there in the early 90's. As I recall, its a fairly reasonable college, cost wise, and thus, has increased applications that perhaps are driving the criteria pretty high.

Consumer Digest ranked them Number 2 in the country for best value.

Last year, there were more than 55,000 applicants. 16,466 students were accepted to fill 4,486 available spaces.

I totally agree they shouldn't accommodate those blind kids buy allowing them to use a braille test.

But I assume you were talking about the extra time. Why not just give all the kids extra time? Doesn't help kids who don't need accommodation anyway.

Because in the real world you don't get extra time.

I get extra time whenever I want. Just need to stay after at work.

The SATs have nothing to do with the real world.

Why can't employers have their own adversity score post graduation?

I heard that they tried a similar thing a number of years ago that did have race as a factor. Didn't last long.

Don't worry, the FAA is already working on it for air traffic controllers:


https://www.chicagotribune.com/...-20140919-story.html

For 99.9999 percent of jobs it’s also not rapid fire know the answer or get it wrong questions.

Must be nice

Holy shit!

My son just received the scores on his first SAT test. He did almost no studying and got 800 math and 640 reading and writing.

He want to do my gmat for me?

He's 16 years old. I don't think the proctor would think he is you.

Minor detail. Probably a work around if we think hard enough ... does he row crew or play tennis?

drn92

Soccer, wrestling, and baseball.

As stated above, it depends on the job. I get as much time as I want as well.


The purpose for accommodation is for people with learning disabilities. As an example, I had an algebra student who was getting a D in my class. For the final they suggested that she take the test in a quiet room with extra time. She practically aced the final. Yes, there will be many jobs in life where she won't be able to just take special accommodations, but as far as algebra is concerned, she's an A student, not a D student.

I'm another example. I'm dyslexic and have ADD. There's a lot of things in my job that I suck at (reading emails), but there's other things that I'm amazing at (math, programming, etc.). My managers were smart enough to put me into rolls where I excelled and not rolls where I suck.

And not once have I ever had to sit in a room and answer a bunch of questions on a test within a small window of time.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

That's not the way it works. A job requires proficiency. School requires potential.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I wonder if any of the 15 adversity markers include:

1.) partying all night before the test
2.) just not being into studying that much right now
3.) being too cool to give an f
4.) excessive knocks to the head during HS football career
5.) swim coach requiring excessive hours training so you can't do other things
6.) public schools vs private schools

The general idea is if Bobby got screwed by a deadbeat dad and in lower quality school with lots of household responsibilities managed to get a 1440 on his SAT and George had private tutors at his private school where they served his meals, did his laundry and studying was his only real responsibility and he got a 1460- perhaps Bobby can hold his own against George academically.

If I get the adversity scores and they have similar performance scores I might choose the one who I know can perform with the deck stacked against them personally.

And like I said above, Bobby isn't going to operate on your heart. He gets admitted to the school to learn how to do it in 12 years. If he's truly not good enough, then he won't make it through the program.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

At what point is he washed out if he keeps getting an accommodation or gets admitted with a lower score because of adversity?

Your specific generalizations about both students would be impossible to discern via a look at the students' demographics by a testing agency (or did I miss the new bit about requiring in-home interviews to register for the SAT). Having a testing agency award 'adversity points' based on demographics is absurd, particularly without any due process.

At the point where he fails to meet the passing standards of the college curriculum.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

There is a questionnaire

https://www.good.is/.../sat-adversity-score

Maybe you can’t determine chores, but if you are comparing someone who was a boarding student at Andover vs. living with a single mom in an apartment in Springfield you get almost all of the info I included- don’t you?

I’m not saying I support this- but having gone to undergrad at a big state U after a high end suburban public high school I was shocked at the difference in college preparedness. At my school you could take two years of physics and many of the kids in my engineering classes came from high schools that did not even offer physics.

Honestly I agree with this. Though I get the concept, testing, in general, is supposed to control for all external biases. If you want to put a weighting factor for whatever reason, that is supposed to go on after the test scores, not adjust the scores.

As a simple example (only meant to be taken metaphorically), lets assume there's some new BMI type score that takes into account gender, or muscle mass, or ethnicity, etc. You don't change the weight that the scale reads. You get an accurate weight, and then you add in your fudge factors later.

I mean, I understand why they are doing this. I just think its not a great idea.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Kiki is right, admissions officers already are up on relative "advantages" and often take them into account. They don't need this number, and it will create a bigger blow back than the status quo. SAT may be trying to mix it up, as they are in a big market-share battle with ACT, because ACT is becoming a de facto standard for high school proficiency testing in many states. Of course, average ACT scores are plummeting as ALL students are being required to take them, rather than just college-bound students. The score difference between a motivated high schooler trying to qualify for their "stretch school", and a hung over terminal high school senior is YUUUGE. This is all the going to backfire on the folks who administer the SAT....

https://www.cbsnews.com/...level-playing-field/

"This new "adversity score" number is calculated by assessing 15 factors that can better help admissions officers determine an individual student's social and economic background, the Journal reported. These factors are first divided into three categories: neighborhood environment, family environment and high school environment.

Each of the three categories has five sub-indicators that are indexed in calculating each student's adversity score. Neighborhood environment will take into account crime rate, poverty rate, housing values and vacancy rate. Family environment will assess what the median income is of where the student's family is from; whether the student is from a single parent household; the educational level of the parents; and whether English is a second language. High school environment will look at factors such as curriculum rigor, free-lunch rate and AP class opportunities. Together these factors will calculate an individual's adversity score on a scale of one to 100.
According to the Journal, a score of 50 is considered "average." Anything above 50 proves "hardship" while anything below 50 is considered "privilege.""

Interesting- The harder you worked to give your kid a better living environment, the more you are penalized for it.

All sorts make it into pilot training in the USAF. Some may have made it in even though they didn't have terrific test scores/GPA's (especially if their dad was a general). But everyone still had to be able to land an airplane, and those who couldn't were washed out.

For those who feel they're now going to be at a disadvantage compared to kids who grow up in high crime areas with crappy schools with parents who don't make a lot of money, you could swap places with these kids and then you'd be able to earn their adversity scores.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Yeah, after hearing how they use it and all. Seems like just another number they provide the university, to give more information. Not sure what the hang up here is with it.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

So I'll rent my kid(s) an apartment in Englewood assuming it is still a bad neighborhood in 18 to 20 years, use that as the mailing address for SAT and boom a high adversity score

Despite the way it was spun here. From what I have read, it is just another number and not some hidden scaling that they do to your results... So if you score a perfect score, and come from privilege you still get a perfect score, its just your adversity score will be lower.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Yup, as is usually the case, with money you can find away to take advantage of things.

You seem to think that someone's up bringing and school district and parent income does not impact how much they can learn? Yet I have a feeling if you have kids you made sure that you lived in a good school district or put them through private school.

Seems pretty clear to me, someone from a family with less money, or a bad school district who scores as well as someone from a better situation, has more potential, and given more will go even further.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

It's already been demonstrated that by end of first year of med school in UK kids from inner city schools with worse grades than kids at Eton test out at same level


Fact is, an A from Highland Park is not the same as an A from the south side, in fact its probably not even the same as a B-


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/medical-students-doctors-poor-students-disadvantaged-a-levels-bad-grades-a8365776.html%3famp

That's what college admissions counselors, personal statements and interviews are for. This is just a gibberish number that can't actually tell you shit.

WTF are you talking about? HP is an infinitely harder school and more competitive meaning an A there is harder to achieve

Perhaps you should buy them a water polo hat too.

There's a difference between gaming a system and cheating

Its a number based on 12 social / economic / geographic data from the persons life. Not sure why you think it is gibberish, then again the actual SAT score is pretty much gibberish. Its pretty well documented with tutoring you can raise the score significantly.. does that mean the kid is any smarter.. nope just that they learned to take a test. I think a good argument could be made the adversity number is more informative along with grades and other stuff, the the actual SAT scores.

I am a person who generally think more data is good, so this is just another piece of the pie.

Oh and on those admissions counselors (I'll ignore personal statements as proven if you have money you pay to have an editor "edit" your work for what they want) so how does that counselor evaluate the kid who is to poor to go to the college visit?

I probably took a week or more off of work, drove thousands of miles, for each of my kids college admissions, and flew one kid to one school. Many kids don't have that resource.

Funny thing apparently 50 universities have been beta testing this for a few years, and all seem pretty happy with the results.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Arguendo I live in the best high school district in IL. Further, let's say I have a nephew or niece who comes to live with me in their junior year to go said high school but to do so has to leave the hard scrabble salt mines of southern Illinois to do so, leaving behind her alcoholic absent divorced dirt poor parents. The niece gets fucked over because of my zip code. You think that's legitimate?

What about the parents that do EVERYTHING they can to get their kids into Hales Franciscan (look it up, if you're looking for a charity it's phenomenal). Those kids get fucked because they go to a good HS.

You're a data whore? So am I, but I also hate bogus bullshit data especially agenda driven garbage.

We should just base admissions on race, because, you know some races are incapable of succeeding without our help.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

nothing is perfect, what if your complete idiot and happen to guess and get a perfect score on the SAT? How does that compare to the kid who is an avg student but mommy and daddy spend $5k on a tutor who gets you a perfect score.. and on and on.. showing that something isn't perfect doesn't show that it has no value..

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

There is a difference between not perfect and a foundational flaw.

Take a different example... Evanston... million dollar homes on the lake... crack houses in other areas... same HS.... how do you do the adversity score there. The whole thing lacks intellectual integrity and will end up fucking over deserving kids.

And... this is kaput

Although there is a different evaluation they are going to try

...probably the same goal while obfuscating the processes and not being so public about it.

Reading through the posts on this thread made me think of the next steps. Let’s say little Johnny gets his score altered in such a way that he is a shoe in for the dream school. How does he actually pay for it? Or do we also have an alternate pay schedule he him as well. Well of course we do. Or do we further hamper the group we are expecting to help with even more college tuition debt?

If his score is sufficient to get him in and he comes from a less affluent background, I'd guess he does not end up paying retail

The idea is that the college education is worth more than the money spent to get that education. So "further hamper" is an interesting word choice when that's going on.

As I understand it, at competitive schools, getting in is about a whole host of things beyond your test scores (e.g. could be race, socioeconomic status, where you're from, did your parents go to college, did they go to that institution, do they donate to that institution, do you play sports, other extra curriculars, etc.). Sometimes folks act like these test scores are the be all, end all of college admission. Where ever your kid gets into school, most likely there were a bunch of kids with higher scores that didn't get in and bunch of kids with lower scores that did.

E.g. our small rural, Maine HS school has a good track record of kids getting into Ivy league schools or other prestigious schools. People say that has a lot to do with it checking a couple boxes for those schools, namely rural and Maine.