Interesting. With the once every 30 years I’m guessing they’re referencing something they did in the late 80’s. 1989 was the year they unveiled the Trek 5000 which was their first molded carbon frame.

I’m guessing it will be something along those lines. Something to do with frame material, manufacturing, etc.

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Matt

A bulb that doesn't blow out .. for front & rear ??

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hmm. Madone got updated last year.

One bike they could shut up and take my money for would be a Checkpoint or Crockett that could clear 27.5"x2.0" tires. Only other aluminum bike like that out there is the Van Dessel (?) and I think a Trek would weigh a lot less. Other than aerodynamics, any "gravel" bike with less tire clearance is a yawner for me.

Probably just a disc Speed Concept. But who knows? It could be a solar (recharging) eBike or something.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

 

Graphene frame ?

Given Trek's recent engineering / marketing issues with the Checkpoint, I will look at any "innovation" with a skeptical eye. They need to do this right.

My first thought was a polymer frame but when I did a quick search found this...
https://www.google.com/...for-bike-frames/amp/

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Some interesting replies..... Hope it's not just marketing playing games....

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

my guess too.

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tinman

“Cycling’s biggest change since carbon fiber and this one matters more.” Also posted by them.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Drive train without chain—99% friction free.

I agree that it must be a frame material change.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Nanotube carbon printed frame?

I think there are a couple salsa bikes that can also fit those tires

the hint is in the picture itself.

Bamboo. It's the future. Please make it so.

Otherwise it could be more emperor's-new-clothes.

As a Trek road bike owner, I do however look forward to seeing what it is, whilst expecting it to be eye-wateringly priced.
On a plus side, there may be some good deals to be had with a current (soon to be superseded) Speed Concept, come April.

Call me cynical,

but now that we have reached "peak aero" and incorporated disk brakes, forward thinking bicycle companies will now need to move the focus to something else to sell new frames.

New frame materials along with a re-emphasis on weight maybe?

Maybe a ANT, wifi, zwift compatible, USB port included Trek velotron trainer???

Anyone have this picture ?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

On the Trek site, front page.

It looks like a mesh.

A graphene or nanotube mesh frame ?

I’m thinking it’s some sort of e-bike.

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A gigantic rear hydration unit with built in Graphene OCLVv2 IsoLeak (tm) sieve holes so it leaks with 39% more efficiency than Specialized.

Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure hardly anyone will agree it is revolutionary. Sounds like marketing hype to me. No need to check their website that day ... if it is truly revolutionary your non cycling friends will be talking about it. :)

I'm inclined to agree with the others here that, given the timeframe Trek cites, it's likely a new material. If I had to guess, it will be a 3D printed titanium bike. About six months ago I posted about this company here on the forum: http://www.titomic.com In the article I posted, Titomic boasted that they were in discussions with an "American bike manufacturer." Perhaps that manufacturer will turn out to be Trek.

Now what frame will they redesign? 🤔 Not the Madone or Emonda... both are pretty new. Not the Boone as that's also very new and the timing doesn't make sense. Top Fuel, Fuel EX and basically all of their other mountain bikes are all pretty fresh....

... Perhaps the Speed Concept? That might be one of the oldest bikes in their lineup and if Titomic were to lease a printer to Trek in Waterloo it would be sensible as the Speed Concept is a low-volume bike compared to the Madone, Emonda, etc.

Here you go. Take a look in the bottom left-hand corner. Looks like a metal mesh to me.

I’m going MTB related. They improved their women’s MTB riders this year. Also, every procal and top fuel 9.9 is out of stock........call your dealer and ask on the lead time

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My local Trek shop told me the only change coming for the Top Fuel was that it was getting the Thru-Shaft shock from the Fuel Ex 9.9 for the Top Fuel 9.9 model.

Hope so because I have a couple month old procal 9.9!!

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Top Fuel could do with a refresh. It's not old, but it's not that new, either... Quite a few of the newer Trek tech ("tech", marketing speak, whatever) has come out after the bike was released. I expect an update - when it comes - will include Knock Block/StraightShot downtube, thru-shaft shocks, possibly ditching the Full Floater (as in the Slash and Session - "modern shocks are good enough not to need Full Floater"). Since the bike was released, most competitors updated their XC offerings - almost all are slacker and longer.

Personally, given Trek's resources and ability to produce extremely niche bikes, I'm surprised they didn't split the XC lines into "Top Fuel" XCO frames and "Superfly" XC-Marathon frames with a double-bottle design. I had the last gen Superfly FS and loved it to bits (until it got stolen...) - a second bottle cage and updated geo and linkage would be my dream bike.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

 
Yes, kind of mesh

Could be metal... or not ? 3D printed ?

Lighter than usual 100% material structure probably ?

Here as a flat structure, with not same capacities on both axis...

This kind of structure will bring some compression capabilities, or at least some vibration dampening ?

Could be used in some parts of the bike as shock absorber ?

Not accepting sharp angles ? So only for flat structure or round tubes ?

for super light MTB or road bikes ?

Ouch....

Yeah it seems everyone is going with a seat-tube mounted linkage these days (e.g. Canyon Lux). If they could make that work with their Thru-Shaft and ABP it would be a pretty sweet bike: room for two bottle cages, lighter than the existing frame, and probably no need for a remote lock out.

After riding a ton of bikes out here in Sedona the last two days I kind of hope they don’t make it slacker but I would like a steeper seat tube.

Madone SLR disc is very new... if this 30yr thing has anything to do with making that SLR light.. I'd be pissed

I just got a new Madone, i think i would cry if they where about to change it. I dont see that being the case.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Some interesting replies and thoughts. Maybe they're using this as a way to get new ideas. ;-)

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

From the picture you would guess at the use of a new material. Thus could be for frames or it could be for clothing - similar to the work Aerocoach/Nopinz are currently working on.

I'm thinking maybe a frame with a lot of graphene integrated into the mold. Whatever it is, I'm guessing it's going to be over 10k, so I'm not sure I'm going to care for the next 3-5 years.

A lot of speculation about bikes, frame materials etc. Don't forget Trek's sub-brand Bontrager, and all the different product categories that they cover...

I had this same thought too.

Also not excluding the possibility that this is nowhere near as exciting as people are speculating.

it is not new madone.

My bet would be a 3D printed frame from whichever new material there is. However, to call it "revolutionary" (assuming that's more than just a marketing gimmick), it should bring something more to the table - such as affordable mass produced 3D printing of frames (with limitless personalization options), as 3D printed prototypes & components have been around for several years already, but all with one big problem - the cost.

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Need more W/CdA.

.. the success of 3d built frames would be the endless discussions about features that have not been experienced by all .. not the driving qualities ..

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Could it be that someone finally found a way to make solid tires with a good rolling resistance. No more flats?

My road bike is a 1976 Trek. I've been out of the cycling loop for awhile. Are y'all implying that there's something better than Reynolds 531?

“Cycling’s biggest change since carbon fiber and this one matters more.” Also posted by them.

Matters most, Matter, meaning new frame material.

Just a guess.

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Brian

.. "better" is a 1/2 question .. "better for what" 3/4 .. "better for what when" 4/5 .. "better for what when to .." concrete .. ;-)

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Reynolds 753 ?
Bamboo ?

Transparent aluminum? 😂

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

i think most are going to be very disappoint like a previous post said.

.. made me laugh .. like this ..



.. www.theuncomfortable.com

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This was my first guess. Carbon infused with graphene, which will make the frame stiffer, the ride softer, and it'll weigh less then 1,000 grams. The marketing photo background is the new carbon weave that will be used to indicate it's infused with graphene. The price for this frame will be very high!!!

LOL

The collection in the site is great !

Twist on my prior guess: 3D printed titanium frame that’s custom sized to each individual rider after a fit session (what does Trek call their fit? Precision Fit?)

.. the designing Lady concrete understands how things do work .. and how don't .. LOL

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Here's a thing that could be revolutionary, maybe. Bikes that glow from all angles to improve their being visible to cars. Mesh like material could be both structural and allow light to pass through it? Making it so you don't have to attach extra stuff like lights and reflectors? Real life Tron bikes.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

What else? Riderless bikes!

Thinking the same thing, but would be surprised if that was really the case. Don’t think 3D printing is quite there yet.

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http://www.custombikexcessories.com
Instagram
Facebook

https://twitter.com/...349554076925953?s=21


looks like a fabric sheet

looks a bit too stiff to be clothing fabric. I'm guessing looks like a new frame material.

Looks like something to replace woven carbon, or carbon sheets.

You create a tube / aero form / frame shape, put resin on it (Resin Transfer Molding ?) and you create a frame

Seems to be on a roll. 3D printed ?

Obviously its a teaser for the new speed concept disc

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Toro Performance

I was at the trek store yesterday and he said it wasn’t frame material and a disc SC wasn’t revolutionary.

The only information I have is what it isn’t. He said an updated SC was likely coming soon, but that wasn’t it.

My guess and he didn’t confirm or deny this as he really likes his job and gave me zero clues, is a different drivetrain.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

The twitter video linked by Viper doesn't look like a drivetrain, more like a replacement of carbon sheets...

Your local TREK store likely doesn’t know what it is. TREK hasn’t even published anything on their internal sites.

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I see room for lots of "filler" in between the "new material" weave.... lots of profit for the lower end models that will come out of production :-D !!!

Louis :)

True enough, went right past the video in my skimming.

If the tweets about a new green frame material are correct, I’d be on board with that.

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Dan Mayberry
Amateur a lot of things, professional a few things.

I mean of course

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

3d printing is wayy too expensive at this moment for massive production, and im not even sure about speed on huge quantities.

If you look closely at the structure, you can stretch it one way a huge amount, but nearly zero the other way (90 degree angle). That's extremely valuable for frame building. Maybe not so much for clothing. Probably not for drive trains. Maybe good for tires?

So let's say you can use this stuff to make a frame very squishy so you get an inch or two of suspension with no power loss - that would live up to their hype claims... for some people... maybe.

Looks like it could be some kind of TPU. That stuff is crazy flexible yet resilient. Same material Adidas Boost is made of. After Adidas figured out how well it worked in shoes, companies have been going crazy trying to figure out what else it's good for. Maybe as the weave instead of carbon?

Trek aren't the only people teasing (at the dealer level) a "revolutionary" new product introduction this month. Since product introductions at annual bike shows seem to be fizzling out . . . maybe this is just Trek trying to grab headlines for model year 2020 product introductions. Apparently, by the end of the month, they won't be alone. Fighting for eyeballs -- and forum posts.

It could also be plastic infused carbon. A new material that was highlighted in his article:
https://www.forbes.com/...frames/#7efe61b410d6

Edit: I would like to add tat Graphine is an actual powder that is infused into the resin.

Potentially this...
https://cyclingtips.com/...s-oh-trek-you-tease/

"A change like this happens once every 30 years".

Do you really think it is a SC?

I have a good idea of what they're about to launch. A few clues to you guys:

1. Pretty much every guess so far has been wrong (including the CyclingTips article)
2. With all this hype and guessing going on, most people will be disappointed when they realize what it actually is
3. The products will most likely be in stock when it's launched

I agree with this
I think all the really keen cyclists will be underwhelmed given all the guesses so far....

Given Trek is very engaged in growing cycling for all I think it will appeal to the commuter, casual enthusiast far more than hard core racer
I was told its a Bontgarer product(s)

No.

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Toro Performance

i'm guessing it's about sports. trek really loves sports!

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Pink indicates sarcasm in this forum

GoreTex + Airbag business suit to commute safely in style ?

I think companies need to be careful when they tease like this, even to non-racer consumers.

They've already got an e-bike range. That wouldn't excite anybody anywhere. I see one every other day around town here.

You run the risk of crying wolf and then everyone is all like "that's it????".

I don't think much out there would really excite me and get me to part money right now on more kit than if Shimano released a truly affordable electronic 105 groupset or kit. Like around $400 affordable.

I'm already a pretty skinny rider, so nothing much in terms of frame weight really tickles my fancy.

Now, if you could custom fit and order at the same price a carbon frame or something.......that'd be cool. But lots of their consumers are probably the "show up and buy it" type. Not the order and wait types.

agreed. it will be anti-climatic. Everybody is hung up on bikes and frames. Remember Trek/bontrager make many other products...

I thought I had seen a version of the symbol in the background image before. I was right.

Trek, Star Trek.

Lol......

Talked with a composites buddy who threw this out there for what it’s worth..

“Hmmm, I just realized it might actually be some type of weave designed to be prestressed, where you'd close those gaps in the layup, locking them in place with the resin. I bet that's what it is. Something like this: https://link.springer.com/...10.1007%2FBF00855802

Increased stiffness in some directions and increased compliance in others. That's really the magic of composites, the ability to tailor elasticity

If that turns out to be right, I'll let you buy me a beer when I'm in Texas next time :D “

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Founder: BestBikeSplit
Amazonian

Yeah, starting to think this is a clothing material. Something super duper that does everything - wind proof, water proof, breaths, insulates and wipes your ass.

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Except that woven materials are much more expensive than unidirectional prepreg and nowhere near as good. Plus, you can only weave materials with relatively low stiffness and low yield (tex). I'm going a different route and thinking it's a different composite material with natural fiber - like bamboo.

 
i wondered if it was an evolution of the sort of crash-proof fabric scott was experimenting with.

But those woven layers are still sometimes used on the surface layer because they're better at resisting some types of impact (and also for cosmetic purposes). Could be a kind of shell layer that's much more impact resistant?

Electric car made from carbon fiber with a chain drive and skinny tires

So what happened 30 years ago given that this only happens every 30 years....

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/now-that-was-a-bike-bontrager-race-lite.html


So a Bontranger gravel bike.


(FWIW then Goretex was 1969, so probably not a new waterproof / breathable material).

I don’t know man. I’ll just throwing things against the wall.

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Graphene frame (or mixed with final layer of Carbon fibre).
Price per gram of that material dropped spectacularly a few years ago.

1989 Trek catalog featured the Trek 5000.
First carbon bike in a catalog mainly dominated by steel frame bikes.

Ffwd 30 years...
My money is on a Graphene based bike.

Maybe a new helmet material. Would be important but people would also be meh.

30 years ago, Lance Armstrong became a pro triathlete, and he's returning with an eye on Kona.

I'm still all in on the 'sports' prediction. who's with me?

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

X3; I care very little about Trek products but if they don’t bring the goods in this one, i think it will be a huge marketing mistake. Then again, they seek to do very well in that department so I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The return of Exogrid!

Up the head tube to 1.5", slacked it to 66 or 67 degrees, replace the canti bosses with disc mounts, and Im IN.
That looks Sooooooo nice.

Robot bikes has been doing some of that for several years
(They 3D print all the junctions (head tube, BB, seat tube junction etc) in Ti, and use carbon tubes between them, and you can spec your own geometry - so no 1:1 linl to a fit session, but you can have a y geometry you want.

I’m fairly certain it’s a new highly advanced helmet technology that’s much much safer than current helmets and prevents concussions. It may even almost eliminate concussions from bike crashes! That’s only a guess but we’ll see next week.

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"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

I'll go with them adopting Ceramic Speed drivetrain technology, dispensing with chains, FD and RD and going direct drive for efficiency gains. Bring it on!

Trek is smarter than that

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Trek stores are going to stock something other than Bontrager, giving people a reason to shop there?

It is some sort of reflective clothing - A visiblity thing - fabric, frame material, decals, something - It will make us safer, faster, blah blah blah - plus it will come in all sizes, shapes, etc - Nothing really of note

I think you got one word correct 😉

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Who said the new product has to be a bike? Has anyone thought about the new release being a bike helmet? I have heard through the grapevine it will be a new helmet.

Trek just signed an agreement to supply Bontrager parts/apparel thru REI and I bet its not a coincidence. That means a helmet is a good bet or some form of 'smart clothing.' I don't think it will be something super high end but rather a product designed for day-to-day use on the mass market. This would help justify both the agreement with REI and the bold statements Trek is making.

If we look at the cycling industry as a whole commuting/transport needs to be the next revolution. If Trek has a product that can change the commuter market in the same way carbon fibre changed the racing market their hype is justified.

To be anything like they have claimed "once in 30 years" it has to be something more than a helmet or reflective wrap. I'm not saying those things would not welcome, but game changing they are not. Unless you are talking about a helmet that would deploy a body encasing airbag.

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Brian

Like a giant pogo-stick...hit the ground & bounce down the road on your melon until you come to a slow stop.

Not quite

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I'll go with a smart jersey that doesn't need your phone in it. It can detect heart rate, sweat issues and make calls automatically if you are in need of help...

Wild guess.

A guess with a lot of details huh.... hmmmmmm

I also want to play xD

I think is some short of abrasion-resistant fabric so you don't lose any skin if/when you fall.

Just like any of the existent solutions but better ;-)

Close but no cigar 😉

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Wouldn't be disappointing if it was just something simple as a chamois

How 'bout clothing that keeps you from falling in the first place? A small unit with a 3-axis gyro on the back senses when you're about to fall, and uses replaceable CO2 cartidges and a network of valves, hoses, and nozzles to direct a blast of gas in the proper direction to counter your impending fall, kind of like the steering thrusters on a spacecraft?

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

I'm guessing the word "material." They wouldn't be talking about carbon fiber if they weren't introducing a new material. Graphene, Cellulose Nano Crystals, something like that.

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--
TriRig.com

Material wasn’t what I was referencing 👍

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Back to the drawing desk!
Time to review all the hints you've already given us and think of a better idea

Ah there is the clue it's no cigar... it's Hemp Fiber :) (Pink?)

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Founder: BestBikeSplit
Amazonian

There's a Belgian company called REI4CED who have developed and patented a new type of composite which uses thin steel fibres to increase impact resistance amongst other things without adding weight, for which they've also developed a new way of producing. It's developed for air planes, cars and bicycles and they state they are working together with a market leader to develop a bicycle frame (for which they have sold their technology).

https://rein4ced.com/

So this might have something to do with it I think..

This peaked my interest (I'm in aerospace composites R&D) but their website screams 'start-up' at me, not a technology that's available to use. Very little technical information which makes it look much closer to being a concept rather than something truly available. I'll email them to ask for some info - but I'd very much doubt they're in a state where Trek would be making a big deal out of something that seems nowhere near reality at commercial scale.

I agree but saying you're developing a revolutionary composite and are designing a bike frame together with a big player in the bicycle industry is quite a bold statement to make for a start up. I'm curious as to if it has anything to do with Trek, it certainly seems like it could.

There are lots of companies making bold statements about revolutionary composites so I'm expecting to see some more data or evidence besides just a few pictures without any technical details. Every supplier I meet with has the best new technology that's gonna take over the world... so they say. Let's look at data in detail to see what's real and where the applications and limitations are.

Sporting goods applications are easier to get into than aerospace, though aerospace is the biggest market for composites. So I'd expect a startup to venture into sporting goods first - and belgians won't care about impact resistance of baseball bats as much as they care about bikes. I'm sure it would be more logical for them to work with Ridley or Merckx rather than Trek, on a smaller scale... so yeah definitely skeptical about the current state.

Electric Domane+



http://e.trekbikes.com/...000000000000000e4ab7

I don't understand why companies like Pinarello and trek are making these. It instantly turns anyone on these bikes a poser.
Plus, they are crazy expensive for a motorized pedal bike. Talk about an oxymoron. You can buy a real scooter cheaper and even a sweet crotch rocket or motorcycle. I would love to know how many of these motorized bikes are sold each year, kinda like the Kona count.

There’s already airbag helmets that detect falls. Also already patents on no helmet neck ring airbags for cycling.

Even if so, that’s tech that’s at least 5 years old.

We have mips smart helmets already that send crash alerts. We have helmets that project a laser bike lane onto the road.

I’d be super disappointed in a helmet.

Or in woven in reflective carbon or clothes. Lights work. Too much reflective turns you into a target as what eyes follow so do hands on steering wheels.

To really change cycling in the US, it would have to be something involving car/bike interaction that really changes the game for rec and commuters. For me anyway.

Does this mean I won?

Welp, prepare to be disappointed then.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

I don’t know if this is it, but I have insider knowledge that they are releasing some new helmets soon. They have better protection than mips, or so they say

Hmmm.??? What insexpensive item can we modify so we can charge the crap out of it and up our margins 300%, someone never said.

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Mike

It can't be more disappointing then ironman's big announcement today.

Does that include a ballista replacement?

Oops, one day early... Links to wavecel.trekbikes.com, which is not yet open to viewing

Googling "WaveCel" gets a bunch of patents attributed to Trek/Bontrager and a few shop sites, including this one:

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

full article here...

https://www.bikemag.com/...l-helmet-technology/

So it is a helmet that does a better job at protecting the head than what we have on the market right now. I guess that is great (take it from someone who was sidelined for 6 months with a concussion!). But i would have expected more, or maybe just that it would be dirt cheap because the new material is so.

I like your logic, but not sure about that. Says expected price is $300. But yes would be nice to have all the way down through the helmet line rather than mostly at the higher end as MIPS tends to be.

My thing is, it's always a dicey prospect to have a world changing safety tech that retails at a pretty out of reach price point for folks.

Statistically, if you included Trek/Bont worldwide.......this tech would be most beneficial to have been rolled out in a sub-$100 commuter helmet for the Euro market.

Does it even have the similar crash notification of the S-Works helmet?

https://www.trekbikes.com/...ecel-helmets/c/E399/

well there is for $150, so I guess its a start

Called it! Three pages ago. And let me know when it's less than $80.

I get that Trek invented it and therefore should profit from it, but if this is truly as revolutionary as they claim, should it be similar to the seatbelt? Aka something that should be shared openly and allowed to be produced by all other companies? Given, we don't have a ton of info yet, but seems a bit contradictory to say,

"We made cycling safer for everyone!*"

*Everyone that buys from us and no one else.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

I stand corrected. For day 1 offering, $150 isn’t astronomical. When some commuters have super expensive e-bikes $150 isn’t asking too much.

$300 for the racy version is a hard pass.

The Sworks with mips and angi sensor is $250.

I would have thought they’d try to hit the same price point to something arguably the same, or better.

I've got a youngster racing XC and spending time at the freeride area. It's hard to say no to better safety when it's your kid. He has, after all, just one brain.

Interesting and important, but slightly disappointing.

Well if you trust the data in the study linked above it could be much, much better. That is if you trust that the "slip" helmet is indicative of a good MIPS helmet and trust that the experiment design tests for the right things.

Edit: And I'm all in. After having seen someone die in front of me from being internally decapitated after a head strike from a mundane-looking fall, I have absolutely zero price sensitivity for helmets. They could charge me $10K.

Slightly?? This product was absurdly (and mistakenly) over-hyped by Trek.

Agreed. Marketing Dept. is a completely separate monster than industrial design/manufacturing so they ran with it.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Yes, I think in part, it was the length of the build up. If they had just given us a few days then it probably would have been less disappointing. But given the time it just set themselves up for a fall.

But, I am in the market for a new helmet and interested and will wait for the dust to settle and actually see some feedback from reviewers / users.

Agreed+2. It's so over hyped I think Trek is so damn stupid. Trek, if you see this please grow up.
It was so childish and stupid.

Tim O’Donnell has worn the Bontrager Ballista to some very respectable bike splits in Kona so it will be interesting to see how it stacks up against that. The good news is the Trek-Segafredo world tour team will have a lot of feedback and testing of the design. If this is their pro team helmet this will not be a dog.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Easy there tiger. “Childish and stupid”? You’re the one that sounds like a kid that didn’t get what they wanted for Christmas. Yeah, the build up was ridiculous and we all expected/wanted it to be something bigger, but no need to get so angry about it.

The worst part . . . does this mean we have to wait another 30 years to see something THIS revolutionary in cycling?

It's the benefits of MIPS, with roughly the same performance as MIPS. But without (Trek hopes) having to pay the MIPS royalty to Giro / MIPS. Anyone want to wager what time MIPS' lawyers went to work this morning?

Yes it does. I really hope it’s a comfy saddle. See you in 30 years! Lol

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Yeah good point. Fortunately, we can all expect something this revolutionary within the next week or two.

Maybe a hidden benefit of the new material is that is could/should ventilate a lot better than closed-cell styrofoam. Is it replacing the old material completely? Or will we still have our foam hats to cook our skulls in?

As a person who has had a number of serious concussions (one of which required being airlifted to a trauma center, plus about 6 or so other concerning ones), I should be super interested in helmet tech. I need a new helmet, so I'm absolutely going to be stepping up to either this or MIPS... are they truly about as equally as effective?

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Any context or further info?

Bike or other?
This brand or other?

Sorry That was sarcasm

So if I'm looking at the site correctly, this is compared to a non-MIPS helmet. Well...c'mon now.

NVM, I see the difference in the 8 page study report. Interesting...how long until this gets shared around or creates more advances?

Also, Trek Aero helmet?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Sorry I'm slow 😁

Trek need to launch a new SC god damn soon.
Realistically we are prob a 4 months out of 2020 launches.

Of the top 3 rated Bontrager helmets, two are the new material and one is MIPS. MIPS is rated between the other two . . . so they appear to be pretty interchangeable, as far as performance is concerned.

If the Elsevier study is valid then "roughly the same performance as MIPS" is not accurate.

So if you believe the study, $300 is cheap insurance against serious trauma.
If you don't believe the study, Wavecell is a gimmick.

I think people who know people that have had serious brain injuries cycling will be inclined to believe the former.

Considering that the Ballista MIPS came out very well in independent safety testing and aero testing, right now I'm thinking to buy one for road riding/racing on close out.

They actually have one that has mostly flown under the radar. Not sure if they ever got it certified for the U.S.

https://www.trekbikes.com/...bike-helmet/p/12566/

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

My question on that is more about a Wave Cell TT/Aero Helmet.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Ah, I hear ya.

They'd have quite the feat beating Aerohead, P-09, Scott Split and Oakley Aro7. And why even bother if they can't win an aero shootout with those since word on aero performance gets around pretty fast these days. Just my 2¢.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

The helmet as it stands looks decent, if you can build it similarly with the wavecell tech that would amazing.

In regards to this development, if I take the study seriously and not believing it to be quack science. And it looks pretty good to be honest. This will either kickstart more innovation or they will be licensing the tech out faster. Wonder which one comes first.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Just wanted to inform you that MIPS only gave you a small increase from EPS. Wavecel drops your chance of injury signifigantly from MIPS added to EPS. MIPS is a slip liner where Wavecel is a replacement for EPS - except for the cosmetic exterior.

Here is some great articles with testing for everyone! You can find plenty of answers to your questions there!

http://trek.scene7.com/...0_impact_testing.pdf

https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/...-helmet-ratings.html

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Mitchell Mathews | Community Manager | Trek Bikes | @mitchmathewz

for this thread too....

in the VT rankings why does the Ballista MIPs score better than the XXX wavecell? The idea of replacing the styrofoam cooler material with wavecell makes sense to me... just trying to understand. thanks

I'm disappointed, so much hype, in a result it is just a helmet :(
I was waiting on some super modern frame material...

If the study is true, I'd buy one for sure.

Some of the other weird things that people were suggesting/hoping for earlier in this thread...probably not so much.

Marvelous, in 30 years, I'll be 92.83% of 100. I know I'll still be here, because only the good die young. Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse. Looks like I'm 0 for 3... ;-))

Big caveat that 'assuming the claims are reasonably true,' but:

A meaningful decrease in brain damage from a fall is a lot more interesting to me than a zero point nothing over-a-40k gain that'll never impact my racing in any way. Probably because I'm slow anyway, but I'm happy to see (at least attempted) innovation in a safety area that might save someone's quality of life vs a performance metric that's functionally meaningless in most of real life.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

Valid point, but maybe an oversimplification. For me, it's what does the extra money for MIPS get me over a regular helmet? What percentage of accidents exceed what a normal helmet protects against? Same for wavecell. And just as importantly, what percentage of accidents does this not protect against? That said, I'm still likely to buy this the next time I need a helmet.

Maybe give it a re-read :-)

"A lower score offers better protection."

a better read indeed!

Ballista mips scored 10.9
XXX wavecell scored 11.8

sharpen pencil, carry the 2, double checking.... 10.9 is lower than 11.8.

Yep. Should take my own advice!

no worries, brother (Hulk Hogan voice)

While most agrees the actual news was disappointing, i guess the marketing dept succeeded. We all know about it now, discuss the scientific findings, and arguably more will be inclined to buy it.

1-0 trek - ST. /clap

Link to the actual research article.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0001457518303713?via%3Dihub


I'm not a biomechanist or engineer, but if their models for predicting injury are reasonable, then the decrease in the probability of injury shown in the last graph are truly impressive and ground breaking.


This is coming from someone who works with individuals with TBI regularly.

Looks like my link to the article is not working. I accessed it through my university computer and thought is was an open access article but maybe not.

jacksonk wrote:

Looks like my link to the article is not working. I accessed it through my university computer and thought is was an open access article but maybe not.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/...ii/S0001457518303713

EDIT: Interesting. Copy and paste it works. It's the "?via%3Dihub" that breaks it.

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

Thanks for the fix!

Those results are only partially corroborated by the Virginia Tech results, though. The VT results show WaveCell more on par with MIPs rather than an order of magnitude ahead. Maybe marginally better than MIPs And VT is fully independent while the above study was designed and performed by those who have a financial interest in WaveCell.

I haven't yet dived into the details of each study to try to figure out why the results may not fully agree.

the wavecell specter does edge out the ballista mips at 10.8 and these 3 are the best rated helmets virginia tech have tested so credit to bontrager there.
the ballista does look to be much less ventilated than the xxx so more material which could account for its good score, if the xxx has similar aerodynamics and protection with better ventilation then i'd take that (although i think i read somewhere that wavecell adds something like 50 grams).

all in all though, its not clear that this is anything like the breakthrough that trek promised

one thing that intrigues me with the VT tests, the mtb helmets score noticeably worse than the road ones. i know the extra protection of mtb helmets is more oriented towards coverage than straight impact protection but i would still have expected them to at least match the road helmets. does anyone that understands the VT testing methodology have an explanation for this?

Hmmm... i am all for head injury prevention and safety. By far the most important tech for a bike rider.

But this was a bit much... but good on trek for hooking us in.

I have yet to read the article, but 10.9 vs 11.8 is good, but not great. I support mips in requesting standardized testing. Otherwise it gets easy to design around a test, not reality.

So this is a bit much for a patent workaround, but any safety improvement is good.

What this guy said^^^^ its the new "wave cell " tech. Theyre at my store already.

The difficulty is knowing whether a 'better' helmet would have made any difference.
In Europe (and no reason to suspect it's different anywher else) the fatal accidents are oft so bad a helmet makes no difference to the outcome. Thats how the defence lawyer argument of 'contributory neglegence' to reduce the $$$ in damages for not wearing any helmet is usually dismissed - that no helmet still made no difference to the outcome.

(I'm not saying a helmet is a bad thing here. Our house operates a no-helmet-no-ride policy. And I do buy 'good' safe helmets, not just cheapo styrofoam !)

Hello trail and All,

As you note from the study:

"Disclosure
Some of the authors (MB, SMM) are co-inventors of CELL technology described in this manuscript, have filed patents, and have a financial interest in the company that owns this technology. These authors (MB, SMM) are founders and co-directors of the Legacy Biomechanics Laboratory. Several of the authors (EB, AR, ST, SMM, MB) are affiliated with the Legacy Health System, which was a partial funder of this research. None of the authors received any money or in-kind contribution for this work."

==================================

While the above could be an argument for bias .... a lab that tests helmets might be the ideal place to germinate new helmet concepts and techniques to mitigate crash injuries.

I would hope to see more tests and information about improving helmets.

It should be noted that there is a slice of cyclists that eschew helmets.

https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/...-in-the-helmet-wars/

That said .... personally ..... I am a 'helmet believer'.....

I have been knocked off my bike in a race and can vouch for the fact that the road is harder than my bare head.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Agreed. A nice product and worthy of consideration. Just not 30-year revolutionary status. I don’t necessarily have any issue with the product. But, the marketing over-hype certainly makes me seriously question any and all other claims about the product and I doubt I’m alone in that regard.

Yeah no argument there. That was a reach lol

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JustinDoesTriathlon

Owner, FuelRodz Endurance.

Hello ggeiger and All,


MIPS replies:


"MIPS has today disputed the performance of Bontrager's new WaveCel technology by claiming it falls "far below" its claims of injury prevention."

https://www.pinkbike.com/...ontrager-claims.html

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Didn't Smith invent your 30 year revolution several years ago?


https://www.smithoptics.com/us/techhelmet

https://www.smithoptics.com/au/Root/Men%27s/Helmets/Cycle/Route/p/HB18-RTMBMD/sizeVariants

https://www.freestylextreme.com/au/home/brands/smith-optics/smith-optics-matte-red-white-black-2017-overtake-mips-mtb-helmet.aspx?prodid=328159

In my home country vehicle drivers should wear an awareness helmet (that has to be invented) .. they cause 70% of the accidents with injured bicycle riders ..

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___/\___/\___/\___ the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>

Depends on your risk awareness and risk aversion. If it is truly 48x more effective at preventing concussion, I would consider the "hype" warranted.

I'm glad that manufacturers are spending money trying to make us safer even though most people might think it's just a boring helmet.

Agree... from the study

"Results of this study are limited to a narrow range of impact conditions, but demonstrated the potential that rotational acceleration and the associated brain injury risk can be significantly reduced by the cellular WAVECEL concept or a MIPS slip liner."

Then the disclosure that patent holders, inventors, those with a financial interest were part of the study. This makes me leery from experience with other studies in other realms with patent holders at the controls of a study.


As a TBI 'person' from a bike accident this is of some interest to me. I find they describe and test different sorts of accelerations (linear, rotational,..) and prevention of skull fractures. In my experience I'm sure my helmet (Giro Air Attack Shield) saved my life but I did sustain a concussion by sheer forces of the event which was my head/helmet hitting a fence post at ~40mph. Would I have fared any better with a MIPS or Wavecel?


Interesting study but honestly I'd need it in more layman's terms.

MIPS have responded, also apparently unable to corroborate. Though obviously with a financial incentive themselves. But if their results (which they say they'll release to the public) largely corroborate the VT study, then I'll consider WaveCell to be a nice alternative to MIPS, but not the be-all end-all that that marketing suggests it is.

I agree with MIPs here...

MIPS’ position on evaluating the possibility of a concussion resulting from a crash is that it is a highly variable event and unique to the individual impact and rider physiology. No two crashes are the same and no two people are the same, so the risk of concussion is a near-impossible claim to make. However, rotational motion itself can be measured objectively, so that is the metric MIPS can actually report and address.

It is a highly variable event, take me for instance flying down a fence row and into a fence post. I don't remember much of the accident but my Garmin had me a little under 40mph. A doctor described my brain as being the consistency of tooth paste... I'm happy I had a helmet on but I'm not sure Wavecel would have stopped my brain from being sloshed around. With that I'm calling baloney on the claim of preventing 99 out of 100 potential concussions.

I think an important qualifier to this study is that the tests were done at 4.8 and 6.2 m/s (~11 and 14 mph). This is likely to be significantly different from the speeds and consequently forces that would be experienced in a crash by the population here.

I think the value is focused on morbidity not mortality. We need a Hans-like device for the later;)

If you assume that your head undertakes exactly zero negative acceleration prior to impact. E.g. the surprise car door at full speed with your head hitting first.

But I'd imagine most head strikes aren't like that. I speculate pretty good at doing gymnastics in mid-crash to not take direct headers. All the broken collarbones being an indicator that our limbs often make first contact.

But that's part of the vast amount of stuff we don't know, probably.

Mitch@Trek - Please check your personal messages on here.

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Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

My MIPS helmet didn't stop me from getting a concussion when I also broke my clavicle due to the forces of impact. Was it less severe? I have no idea. But I still had a noggin, so I'm good with that.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Hello ggeiger and All,

https://www.outsideonline.com/...l-helmet-controversy

Excerpt:

[Turns out, it was a new kind of helmet. The brand’s four new lids combine conventional EPS foam with a new low-density, latticelike structure called WaveCel, which both compresses and shears laterally on impact to protect the brain. Along with the WaveCel-equipped helmets, which are now available, Trek released a study by the researchers who invented the technology. The study claims to show that WaveCel was up to 48 times more effective at preventing concussions than helmets with just standard EPS foam.

Some competitors were nonplussed by the bold safety pronouncements. MIPS, a company whose technology essentially popularized awareness of the role of rotational energy in brain injuries (and offered its own solution), responded by saying that MIPS was “unable to replicate” Trek’s performance claims in its own testing. (Trek’s headline claim failed to mention that the same testing also showed that systems like MIPS lowered the risk of concussion, if not as much as WaveCel.) A week after Trek unveiled WaveCel, Koroyd, which makes its own low-density cellular structure for use in sports helmets and other protective gear, issued a press release running down Trek’s claims and asked if Trek had been “carried away by a wave of hype.”

Faced with the Trek-said, MIPS/Koroyd-said spat, what are cyclists to make of the claims on each side? It’s a little hard to say at this point, but some context helps at least frame the issues and understand why this is such a contentious topic.]

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Sadly, Trek seems to be marketers foremost lately. IMO they tried to be cute to cause a buzz and now they have to deal with the backlash. Not the first time for them. They seem to have gone the same way as Apple.