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Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel?
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Hi All, Trying to get triathlete's take on what is so wrong with a tubular disc wheel? Seems like you can get high quality used tubular zipp disc rim-brake for like $500-600 but clinchers of same age and quality are north of $1250. From a triathlon perspective, particularly the long-course, what's so wrong with tubular and is it worth it to pay up for the clincher?

CG
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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The simple answer is that people are afraid of changing a flat with a tubular.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [integrator] [ In reply to ]
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Is that a reasonable fear, in your opinion? I've watched videos and such but it is always a different ball game changing a flat in the middle of a timed event.

CG
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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Tubs are great, but as others have said people are scared because they can't change them (it's easier than a clincher, just different and, like anything, requires practice). Love my HED Stinger and still have it as a spare.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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Along with recent rolling resistance reports showing clinchers are often faster (tube and tire depending) the pain of changing tubs the significant cost of a tubular tire.
I've used both I prefer clinchers others after the same experience prefer tubular. I like the options of clinchers. Sometimes I change tires depending on the conditions. Tubs were a real hassle and I wouldn't bother.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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CeeGee90 wrote:
Is that a reasonable fear, in your opinion? I've watched videos and such but it is always a different ball game changing a flat in the middle of a timed event.

For race only, not such a big deal, but clincher is just more versatile, and the rolling resistance is better.

Tubeless is hands down better. It has its own difficulties but new and improved sealants are on the way and the industry is improving the clincher-tubeless interface...it will soon accelerate in the market.

I would also argue that most people want to ride their disc more than just racing (for better or worse) and a clincher is just more versatile.

Id rather run tubeless with a spare tube in my pocket (as always) than carry a pre-glued tubular along for my ride. Sealant will catch most things but as always, you are preparing for the worst hoping for the best.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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before switching my bikes to disc brake, I had a few tubular wheelsets... indeed could not give them away..basically gave them to Enve when they had them tradein swap deal going on. Love them for hill climbing and descending but I can see why people want Clinchers ... only my Eroica bike is tubular.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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It's hard to just sell the disc unless the buyer already has a tubular front. A good chunk of people who are making the jump to invest in a disc likely already have an aero set of wheels. If they're already invested in clinchers (say a 404 set), then they're not going to buy a tubular disc just so they can carry two different types of flat repair on race day. So if all you're selling is the disc (and not a tubular front to go with it), you're really limiting your potential buyers unless the buyer has no aero wheels now and is also shopping around for a separate tubular front.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [integrator] [ In reply to ]
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integrator wrote:
The simple answer is that people are afraid of changing a flat with a tubular.

The simple answer is people are too lazy to deal with gluing up tubs. A clincher is a 5 minute affair. A tub is a multi day wait period. Most folks want to just throw something on and go. Or spin a tire full of Stans and pop the air burst in and ride a tubeless.

On the road, a properly prepped tub is easier to mount than a clincher or a tubeless. I pulled one off a wheel I bought and used the acetone to clean it for 10min or so. Then over a couple days did the glue prep, and voila.

Most pro cycling teams still use tubs. There's many reasons why, some practical and some nostalgic or "comfort" related. But, you CAN ride a flat tub. You can't ride a flat clincher or tubeless. So a pro can ride for a KM or so and then get a team spare or neutral service.

Also, think about it, you can't pinch flat a tub or tubeless. What's a super common failure in a clincher? Pinch flat.

Sorry to say, that's how I got a Renn and an HED 3c for total under $500. Tubulars. Just the market.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
.

Also, think about it, you can't pinch flat a tub or tubeless. What's a super common failure in a clincher? Pinch flat.
.

I've pinch flatted a tubular before while warming up for a race. Very Irritating.

I've also cracked three rims without flatting the tire, though, so overall it's certainly tougher.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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Geez. I couldn’t give away a basically new set of Stinger 9s. I just found that I never used them because I had to swap brake pads and it was just so much easier to hop on a similar deep clincher and go. Then you have the issue of the glue drying out and having to re glue them or worry about possibly rolling a tire.

I have toyed with building up a 13-14 pound climbing bike and doing a tubular 202 or 303 setup, but honestly I would only use it two or maybe three times a year, so my desire to spend the time and money to properly set up even a cheap pair of tubulars is waning.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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I must admit I've benefited from the "fear of tubular" you are talking about. I'm racing tubulars because I can get tubular wheelsets way cheaper. I currently have a set of 60 mm and set of 90 mm and a disc...all tubular, all name brands (Zipp, Easton). I paid a total of $1000 for all five wheels (used from the ST classifieds). Sure, I could have probably scored a clincher Flo 90 and Flo disc for about the same money or maybe a little more. But having five race wheels set up and ready to gives me options.

I usually run some version of the Vittoria Corsa CX. That's a pretty good quality/fast tire with a latex tube inside. If I wasn't so superstitious, I even tell you that I've never flatted a tubular during the 30+ tris I've done on them. But I am superstitious, so I won't say that.

I've never paid more than $40 for one of those Corsa CXs (always new). That's about the same as I pay for the Conti GP4000SII's I throw on the clincher box rims I use on the road bike.

Anyway, I am happy take advantage of the downward market for tubs...and will probably continue to do so for some time.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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Man I’m bummed. I only opened this thread to say: you can give one to me!
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [integrator] [ In reply to ]
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I ran Conti tubies on race and training wheels exclusively for 15 years back in the day. It was expensive and extra work... but I have ridden a flat for a couple of miles into T2... and changed a tubular tire quickly numerous times. I recall a thread where relatively accomplished cyclists complained that the “mental stress” of “worrying about a flat” kept them from considering tubular during a race. I have pinch-flatted a enough times to be overly cautious (and slow) with a clincher change. I love my Zipp 404’s, race exclusively on them, and am confident that I can change a properly prepared tubular tire as quickly (or quicker) as a clincher. In fact, practicing quick changes is part of my race (and tire) prep. Frankly, I’m guilty of avoiding my disc because I’m “afraid” of the crack pipe.
Last edited by: Wild Horse: Feb 16, 19 5:46
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [Wild Horse] [ In reply to ]
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Do you carry a can a sealant and preglued tubular when you run the tubular race set up?
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve decided to take advantage of the tubular decline in value... I’m hunting for a pair of tubular 808s. On e-bay some people have priced them with the decline in value in mind while others still think they can get good value.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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1. Rolling resistance - there are many more tire options that are clinchers and faster than every tubular tire out there except for corsa speeds.

2. Flats/spare - how do you carry a spare pre-glued tubular tire that is hidden from the wind? And then what do you do with the flatted tubular tire because you can’t litter? You can easily hide a tube from the wind but a tubular tire is another story. Pittstop works maybe 25-50% of the time.

blog
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not going to argue that tubular is better than clincher. If I was able to find comparable wheels for the same price in clincher, I would go with clincher. But, as long as I can buy the same tubular wheels for half the cost of clinchers, I'll stick with tubulars.

Re #1...Rolling Resistance. There are still some pretty low RR tubs (Vittoria) as long as you stay away from those with butyl innertubes (Conti, Zipp, etc.), and do a solid glue job.

Re #2...Flats/Spare. You can get a pre-glued spare tub wrapped tightly enough to stash away in ALMOST the same space as a clincher innertube. A Velcro strap to keep it tightly wrapped. If I ever do flat a tub in a race, and the Pit Stop doesn't work, I would simply put the flatted tub where I had the spare stashed.

Let's assume I am working on a limited budget of $500 for a set of race wheels and tires. I can get a 808 front (tub) and Sub 9 disc (tub) both for about $400, l have $100 left over for a nice pair of Corsa CXs with latex tubes inside. That set up is likely faster than any clincher setup I can put together for the same $500.


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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [Signal8] [ In reply to ]
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About crr

Based on this:https://docs.google.com/...BOeFmO3-_8/htmlview#
the zipp tangente sl speed should be way to go?

—
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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The bulbular profile of mounted tubulars has to be a negative in terms of aero performance, no?

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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If someone is giving away Tubular wheels, I'll take them all day long!

Mike
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [JanneK] [ In reply to ]
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JanneK wrote:
About crr

Based on this:https://docs.google.com/...BOeFmO3-_8/htmlview#
the zipp tangente sl speed should be way to go?


That list doesn't include the tubular version of the Corsa Speed. If you look at this data, the 23mm version of the Corsa Speed would be roughly equivalent to the 27mm SL Speed. And as fast as any of the tested road clinchers except its own stable mate. And almost certainly significantly more aero at ~4mm narrower. The 27mm SL Speed may not even fit on many TT bikes.

I use the Corsa Speed tubbies on my outdoor track wheelset. No complaints, though they're *very* thin, like an indoor track tubular. I wear through rear tires on an asphalt track in 400-500 miles. Definitely a racing-only tire unless you like gluing tubulars like monthly (which I don't).
Last edited by: trail: Feb 18, 19 7:19
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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Hello CeeGee90 and All,

Who would have ever have 'thunk' it would come to this just a few years ago when clinchers were shit and sewups were King?

Perhaps, just perhaps, the tide will turn and sewups will rise again .... light weight tires and rims ..... self sealing .... easy puncture repair ... or flat proof .... 3M type adhesive tape that preserves Crr values and makes installation and removal easy .... tape on 'retreads' that extend tire life ..... tech innovation to the rescue.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Do any of you use tape to mount the tubs and if so how do you prep the spare?
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
1. Rolling resistance - there are many more tire options that are clinchers and faster than every tubular tire out there except for corsa speeds.

2. Flats/spare - how do you carry a spare pre-glued tubular tire that is hidden from the wind? And then what do you do with the flatted tubular tire because you can’t litter? You can easily hide a tube from the wind but a tubular tire is another story. Pittstop works maybe 25-50% of the time.


It’s really just ease of use. 90 percent of people in a triathlon wouldn’t know what rolling resistance is. They’ve used clinchers on their regular wheels forever so they keep using that on their race wheels.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [IMF] [ In reply to ]
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IMF wrote:
Do any of you use tape to mount the tubs and if so how do you prep the spare?

I used to use tape until I read an Effeto Mariposa employee honestly state the rolling resistance losses of their tape, which were very significant.

I didn't use spares (I do pure track/TT), but I wouldn't recommend tape for those who might attempt swapping on a new tire. I don't see how it could be effectively done without either adding a bunch of extra bulk and time to the change, or having a really dodgy bond while attempting to re-use tape already on the wheel.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [IMF] [ In reply to ]
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IMF wrote:
Do any of you use tape to mount the tubs and if so how do you prep the spare?


Glue tape causes higher rolling resistance.

Spare tires don't need anything on them.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, I will admit it..... I know I will get roasted, but oh well.... I use Tufo Jet Elite 160gr tubs, and I COULD NOT BE HAPPIER!!!!! Yes, the tires are damn light and fast, and I get to pump them up (I know, the entire RR debate, okay...maybe later). Bottom line is, I use tubs for racing, and I would NOT change that at all. Have had 3 flats over the years of racing since 2005. Rode them out until it was safe to pull over. CHANGED them out in under a minute (yes, 1 MINUTE). YES, a pre-glued tub is WAY faster than fiddle-farting with a clincher tire/tube. Oh, and by the way, my Tufo Jet Elite weighs in at 160 grams. Beat that weight with a clincher. PLUS, I can roll up a tubular spare into the same size as a single tube (see another thread where i show a picture of my rolled up tub).
Gluing tubs is a chore, but once you learn how, it is very easy. NO, I do NOT do the ridiculous 3 layers of glue and 24 hours of wait..... I glue very strategically, meaning only in a certain pattern in certain places, and only 1 layer. Remember, you have to be able to peel the tub off with just your thumbs when in a race situation. Don't be like Stadler in 2006 at Kona...."damn man, how much glue did you use???"

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]
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Tufo tires have very high rolling resistance.

The tire needs to be glued to the entire rim in order to keep rolling resistance to a minimum. You need a few coats of glue to do it properly.

You do not need to be able to peel a flat tire off with your thumbs. Carry a razor blade and cut across the tire all the way through to the rim. Stick your fingers inside the tire and peel it off like a snake.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]
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I rode out a flat on a tubular once and ruined the rim. Oh what an advantage. Have fun with your lightweight tires. I'll take better rolling resistance and aerodynamics every time
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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maybe this is off topic, but i've been searching for good deals on alloy tubular disc wheels all week for cyclocross. i'm finally giving up on rim brakes cause no one makes bikes any more, but i don't want to give up on tubulars. not sure if im in a minority there.
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]
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Taugen wrote:
Ok, I will admit it..... I know I will get roasted, but oh well.... I use Tufo Jet Elite 160gr tubs, and I COULD NOT BE HAPPIER!!!!! Yes, the tires are damn light and fast

Tufo tires are anything but fast.

And like Jim mentioned above, the less glue you use, the higher the rolling resistance.

blog
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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The only reason I would take a set of tubular wheels for FREE would be to re-sell it to some dummy.

I wouldn't use tubular wheels if they paid me to use them. YMMV, but the effort involved with their use is absurd to me. The "tubulars are better" ship sailed many years ago. I really can't believe any wheel company still makes them. Who are they selling deep dish tubular wheels to? Triathletes and TT'ers are basically the only people that buy really deep wheels. I sort of get TT'ers maybe preferring tubulars for some reason but not so for triathletes.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [7401southwick] [ In reply to ]
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I happen to have just posted a rear Corima 4-sp tubular in the classifieds with a Vittoria Corsa CX (only ridden a few times on the tire--like new), with a skewer & cogset--race ready. It's glued on already. IF you wanted to take advantage of the "decline" you say, in tubular prices or popularity. Wheel is in really good condition, I only raced on it. 700cc. Shimano style hub.
Last edited by: Rocky M: Feb 19, 19 14:45
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, yes I admit that my limited gluing may have a draw back to RR. BUT, if/when you have a flat in a race, tell me about how that 3x layers of glue really works.....when you are trying like hell to get that flatted tub off. And yes, I do carry a razor blade, so I can in theory cut the tire and the peel it off like a snake skin. Yes, this idea does work, but it does take longer to work. I'd rather just limited glue my tub and then be able to snap the flat off with 2 thumbs and rip the tire off in just a few seconds.
Yes, in a perfect world, gluing tubs with 3x layers of glue is ideal. But, given the chance that a flat can happen over 112 miles, I would rather be able to spend 30 seconds to change it out, than save 1 minute in RR. Okay, so maybe you save 1 minute in time via RR, but if you flat you now have to spend 3-4 minutes to slice the tire, finger it, peel it, ect..... Yes, everyone says, oh just bring a razor blade and slice it, an put your finger inside and rip off the tire.... Ok, try that..... Yes, try that with 3x layers of glue. It's not easy or fast with that much glue. I've actually had to pull a tub off a rim that had so much glue on it, that it pulled up a layer of carbon from the bed (was a wheel I bought from a sponsored Rolf cyclist, who had put so much glue on it, that it peeled up a layer of carbon and I sent the wheel back to Rolf. So, tell me how is that better than just lightly gluing a tub on. Again, tri racing is a lot different from crit racing.

Everyone wants to think of the perfect situation, and that a tub can be cut off in 10 seconds, even with 3x layers of glue. That is not reality. The more glue use, the harder it is to get a tub off, pure a simple theory. So, do you use more glue to save on RR, or do you use less glue to save on chaining a flat. For me, I would rather use less glue on my tubs, and that if I flat I can change it in under a minute, thus saving more time than what may have been gained if I had used 3x layers of glue.

Everyone has a thought, and to each, his own......

Team Zoot-Texas, and Pickle Juice
Last edited by: Taugen: Feb 19, 19 17:14
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [Taugen] [ In reply to ]
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Taugen wrote:
Ok, yes I admit that my limited gluing may have a draw back to RR. BUT, if/when you have a flat in a race, tell me about how that 3x layers of glue really works.....when you are trying like hell to get that flatted tub off. And yes, I do carry a razor blade, so I can in theory cut the tire and the peel it off like a snake skin. Yes, this idea does work, but it does take longer to work. I'd rather just limited glue my tub and then be able to snap the flat off with 2 thumbs and rip the tire off in just a few seconds.
Yes, in a perfect world, gluing tubs with 3x layers of glue is ideal. But, given the chance that a flat can happen over 112 miles, I would rather be able to spend 30 seconds to change it out, than save 1 minute in RR. Okay, so maybe you save 1 minute in time via RR, but if you flat you now have to spend 3-4 minutes to slice the tire, finger it, peel it, ect..... Yes, everyone says, oh just bring a razor blade and slice it, an put your finger inside and rip off the tire.... Ok, try that..... Yes, try that with 3x layers of glue. It's not easy or fast with that much glue. I've actually had to pull a tub off a rim that had so much glue on it, that it pulled up a layer of carbon from the bed (was a wheel I bought from a sponsored Rolf cyclist, who had put so much glue on it, that it peeled up a layer of carbon and I sent the wheel back to Rolf. So, tell me how is that better than just lightly gluing a tub on. Again, tri racing is a lot different from crit racing.

Everyone wants to think of the perfect situation, and that a tub can be cut off in 10 seconds, even with 3x layers of glue. That is not reality. The more glue use, the harder it is to get a tub off, pure a simple theory. So, do you use more glue to save on RR, or do you use less glue to save on chaining a flat. For me, I would rather use less glue on my tubs, and that if I flat I can change it in under a minute, thus saving more time than what may have been gained if I had used 3x layers of glue.

Everyone has a thought, and to each, his own......

And this is one of the reasons people just run clinchers. Way easier to deal with.

blog
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Re: Tubular vs. Clincher - Can't Even Give Away Tubular Disc Wheel? [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
Triathletes and TT'ers are basically the only people that buy really deep wheels.

And trackies. Only type of tire you can pump to like 220PSI (which makes sense on a super smooth indoor track), and have a chance of riding out if you flat like 2 stories high up on the bank.

Pretty small market, but still a market that's unlikely to go away anytime soon.
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