Most of us put our wins (or places) in perspectives. Very few wins mean much and then it only means something to you. Do you think the public cares about who won any local race or even did well at Kona.
I think most are happy if their performance reflects their effort for their talent.

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Team Zoot So Cal

My opinion:

To "win" you need to beat someone, but if you are the only one in your AG you still finished 1st.

No victory is hollow (though some are more significant than others), and you can only race the people who show up.

It's a bigger accomplishment for an 80yo to finish a local sprint tri than for a 20-something to win it.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

no, there are people who purposely seek out shooting fish in a barrel races, so they can brag 3rd place AG on facebook/strava and add hashtag... #teamZoot

Anyone can enter and compete. Whether there are 30 people in my age group, on just me, doesn't matter (although more is better). Can't control who shows up, all I can do is make sure my training base is solid, my preparation is solid, and my race execution is solid. If I do the best I'm capable of that day, I win, even if a medal doesn't come my way. In addition to triathlon, my other passion is Masters Track. There's not a lot of masters sprinters in my age group, and many times not a lot of 40+ masters in total. Sometimes there's only one heat and everyone competes in it. I know going in that I'll medal in my age group (only me in it), but it's the thrill of the 'last call', shaking hands with the other runners, taking my lane, the butterflies, the 'runner take your marks', the satisfaction that I'm out competing and doing something that truly makes me happy. I won before the gun even went off.

There are always those who sand bag in any sport, and those that it bothers. I could care less about either of them.

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Team Zoot So Cal

It is still a win, absolutely.

The young guys/gals always bemoan how 'easy' it is for a 65 year old to win their AG - because nobody else usually shows up. The reality is that there are tons of health limiters that young people aren't aware of that cause a massive dropout in participation as you age up. Arthritis is the one that fells most diehard athletes in their 40s-50s. Then all sorts of other ailments from cancer to heart disease and on and on. By the time you've aged up to 65+, it takes favorable genetics and a good history of not injuring yourself in the past just to toe the start line! Granted, it's definitely a DIFFERENT kind of 'win' than the M20-25 guy who wins his AG by speed in a field of able-bodied athletes, and yes, it's entirely possible that the M65 could win it by being minimally trained and just surviving race day, but percentagewise, the attrition is real, so it's just a slightly different selection process for the age groups.

I'm only in M40-45, and until I was 41, I honestly felt like could train and race forever, even if I wasn't dominating anything. Then out of nowhere, I started getting really debilitating ankle pain when I ran which turned out on MRI to be accelerated arthritis. It literally got so bad that it hurt even at rest and I couldn't run more than 2 miles per week for over 2 months since any more than that would inflame my ankles even at rest the next day. This is coming from someone who has no problems putting up 70+mpw of running during pure marathon training blocks, so it's not a matter of me being wimpy in my older age.

I've been lucky in that with nearly 5 months of seriously reduced running and a big switch of shoes, I've gotten a lot of my run ability back with minimal of the pain that was plaguing me before, but I'm wayyyy more careful with mileage, intensity, and importantly, recovery with running - for example, I will never run 2 days in a row if my ankle even gives me a hint of soreness - and for the past 3 months, that has meant nearly zero days of back to back running. And I know my run/tri days are seriously numbered - if I'm still doing sprint tris at age 55+, I'll consider it a win even if I come in last place, no joke!

Aging up does mean there's less competition to mow you down, but it unfortunately often comes with the sobering realization that you may very well be next in line to be mowed down by father time.

1/10

Yes. It was raining, the Froyo 10k had people who were fast show up the year before. It was raining. I showed up, I was fat and slow and undertrained. I took home the big spoon because they didn't care to run in the rain.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

"Two best words in the English language! De! Fault!"

Don't think it counts as sand bagging to enter and complete a race in which you happen to be the only competitor in your AG. If you actively seek out those events and then brag about your win or podium then yes you're a douchebag.

I always enjoy sticking around for the end of AG medals when I have time to see the winners for 60+ groups, because I'd love to be racing still at that age. Who cares if they're the only ones racing that group? It's awesome and I like the recognition they get.
Same with the women - there's no reason that they shouldn't get recognized just because other people aren't showing up. There should be a focus on "why aren't more women here?" rather than "why did the woman that showed up get a medal?" The latter attitude is the sort of thing that I think discourages people from participating

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Chasing PB Podcast Latest interview with Eli Hemming on Targeting a US MTR spot in Tokyo

Silly question - you're surely not asking sincerely?
If there are AGs and you win in yours, of course it's a win. What do you suppose is the reason for an AG? Same thing for male//female groups.

As for whether it's a hollow victory... You decide.
Why are you asking us?

You could win the race overall and still consider it a hollow victory if you didn't feel you deserved it, or that the win did not reflect a significant achievement for you. "Winning" and having meaning are not the the same thing.

I just won my first race since the 3rd grade - a local 10k. I ran under 50 for the first time. I took four minutes off my PR. At no point did I think I’d win my AG or even podium ever. Not this race not ever not any race. I thought I wasn’t able to do that

There was an out and back at the end at 8.5 km I realized that there just weren’t that many people in front of me so I found out I can run even faster than i was running this far

When I was done I almost just left like always but I chatted with a friend a bit and decided to see if maybe I got third. I am 50 years old

I saw that I had won and it was an indescribable feeling

There were 38 runners in my AG. I realize in a bigger race I wouldn’t have won but I trained, came out and ran faster than I’ve ever run before

It matters. I may never win again. You can only control yourself

Well done!

Sure, that certainly matters to you and probably would to me. But it's all relative and no-one else can tell you it matters. Just from reading your post I'm guessing the fact you beat your PB was a big part of WHY winning mattered to you. If you'd been slower than usual and still won, would it have meant anywhere near as much?

I'm saying the OP is silly, not that caring about winning is silly.

In most of the masters swim meets I do, there are anywhere between 1 and 3 guys in my AG. I can't think of a race that I haven't won at the local level.

Is that a hollow victory? Well I don't really care about the placing, per se, because I can't control who shows up. There are plenty of guys out there who are faster than me, but they aren't in the race.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Congrats AnimalMom2! Great post as well.

I look at races like playing cards. You play the hand you are dealt. If you are in a race and 1000 people show up or 10 people show up that is who you race.

I think my issue is there are a few people I know who reach out to every company they can think of asking for sponsorship's and use their results as leverage. The reality of it though is they purposely seek races with small turnouts where there might be 2 people in your age group and you brag about getting second in your AG to potential sponsors.

I'll be 62 this year and hope to make it to M65. There is still competition in your 60s in most local short course triathlons, but for independent long course the effect of time is apparent and devastating. If you want any level of competition, you have to go to branded races. And even at most Ironman races, less than 2% of the entire field is over 60 years old.

I've watched a number of people near my age drop out of due to recurring injuries and declining capability. Somewhere around your late 50s, it's going to feel like someone tossed you a grand piano to carry on all your runs. That's when a lot of people throw in the towel. So yes, if you can get to the starting line and still finish when you are a senior, it can be quite fulfilling.

I put it this way, a win is a win. That’s not to say that some wins might mean more... however you can’t control who shows up. I’ve been in races where I PR’d all over the place and came in 11/11 in my age group just to 2 weeks later race again at another venue (more slowly I might add) and come in 2/10. I surly didn’t see anyone giving me extra credit because this one local race must have a handful of monsters that live nearby.

Also one of the reasons I’ve argued for USAT to change the way they do grouping. I’d like to see more of a category based like cycling with less AG’s. I’d like to know more of how I stack against my peers rather than getting the wide swings of who signs up in my five year time block.

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I still lapped everyone on the couch!

Congrats on winning your age group!

Is my 10K placing not valid because Mo Farah didn't show up?


I think sometimes just getting to the start line and putting yourself out there rather than just staying home on the couch is a victory. OP needs to think about why there aren't more people in those categories competing. Aside from overcoming the barriers of cost, time commitment, access to facilities, someone in a group with low numbers wont have peers to train with, motivate, or share experiences and knowledge with. And aside from the glory of a podium picture and a Facebook post, nobody is getting rich by doing this. And if they are, maybe it's because brands see value in trying to inspire an under served demographic.

Your first post in 8 years and you choose to lead off with this weak troll?

I'm a simple guy and don't think much.
You train, show up, deliver and you win.
As simple as that.
It doesn't matter if your competitors show up or not.
I know a couple of old athletes and they are 67 and over 70.
They do great and give everything they got every single time.
That's whom I will be and if I win, that's great.
If not, I will do better next time.

Are you trying to win the internet today?

1/10 ;)

I'm a bit confused by your examples... you're saying a woman in a mixed-gender crit places 15th overall, 1st woman and because she was not first overall you are wondering if she deserves a medal (edit I just noticed that you specified she is the only woman)?

Or a guy who wins his age group - you are questioning whether that counts because he is old and did not finish first overall? Even though he beat everyone else in his AG?

An AG win that is 11th overall is not a win, even if there were other people in the AG?

The only win is first overall, nothing else?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

still a win. I can't control who shows up. first and foremost in any race I have specific some combination of time/pace/power output goals in mind. I'm racing against myself in a way. If I'm familiar with the field and course I might have a sense of if I may have a chance to podium. If I meet or exceed those goals I normally consider it a success unless I feel like I didn't push myself hard enough. If I am the only one in my age group and podium as a result...oh well...I showed up. It's not my fault others did not. I never choose races based on if I can podium or not. I choose them often if they're near me or if it's an interesting venue or if it's something like an IM where I have limited options.

I know someone that has done pretty well out of this. I think his 10k best is a mid to long 36min so was never a podium contender at most local races, but he realised that a growing number of events of ten run 5k fun runs along side the 10k or multisport event. These events particularly the small local ones usually attract small fields of mainly fun runners so he could grab a podium. He would even badger the organisers to check no faster guys might turn up. If worded cleverly on social media it can seem like you won the main event. Since then he has moved on to Aquathons where even the national champs usually have well under 10 people per age group. These podiums and some professional photo sessions have enabled him to be seen as an influencer. He has picked up sponsorship from decent brands such polar hr monitors, asic shoes and zone three wetsuits / tri kit along with countless other smaller sponsors. He has also been a guest speaker at the London Tri show, and been special guest star at a number of events. If you are brazen enough to play the self marketing game it can pay off. I am unsure if his sponsors see much return on investment, but supplying free gear and a bit of a race fee is cheaper than paying a pro or buying ad space I guess.

A win is a win. It doesn't matter who shows up. While I want to "win" that is rarely my primary goal. Primary goal is always to nail my race plan and get the best time for myself.

Heck yeah. A win's a win.

I'm reminded of the Lake Placid Loppet ski race, where during the awards ceremony some competitors were still out racing, or just finishing......

Heck yeah they're winners!

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http://www.jt10000.com/

No troll.
Just some banter with friends.
Really it's been 8 years?
Thanks for checking up on me.
You are like a wannabe James Bond.

The race isn't just from the start line to the finish line. It's from youth to old age. It's from fit to fat. It's from health to ill health. It's from lifestyle, to consequences. It's from a warm bed to a cold dirty lake, or hot windy road, or wet rainy hills... on training days and race days. It's from injury to recovery. I got up and did the training, survived the injuries, brave the conditions, stayed fit, and stayed away from the alcohol, bad habits, donuts and pizza... toed the line and won my age group, weather or not anyone else showed up. If you didn't show up to kick my ass, that's your problem, not mine. I got the win.

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Athlinks / Strava

For me? For-sure this... I finished dead last in my AG my first tri in '08 (a sprint)... I've stuck with it and have become the moper I'm proud to be all these years later... I've been on the podium a few times in smaller events, but I definitely try and keep it in perspective... I also had a DNF in IMAZ last year after finishing it in '16. I'm keeping that in perspective too... For me triathlon is my lifestyle... I swim, bike and run. I do resistance training... I do these things because I enjoy the training. For me, a race is just a focus for my training. A way to keep me motivated to get my ass out the door and be active... How I perform in the event is my report card... Am I ok with placing 3rd in my AG if only 4 show up? Yep... But no one else gives a shit. And that's ok... It's my report card...

I'm going to run a half-mary in a few weeks.(hopefully) My first event since AZ... I've set a goal to be sub 2hrs... I wake up with the aches and pains that all of us get as we age. Skip some runs and take a long walk instead... I wonder if I still have that time within me. I did 2 years ago on my 60th b-day. But two years ago - was - 2 years!

The run is a smaller local event. If I do well, I'll stick around for the awards ceremony... If I do podium will it be a hollow victory? If I get my sub 2, fuck no... But, however it turns out - I'll keep it in perspective... Best just to keep life in perspective... Especially when those aches and pains start becoming more frequent.

Well except for the avoiding donuts and alcohol BS, spot fucking on

I won a Masters 55+ crit last summer. Half the field were racing cat 1 in their youth and there was a guy in the field fresh off winning several medals at the masters track nationals. Sure, we were not quite as fast as the P12 field later in the day but I'm counting my win!

On the other hand, 2 years ago I got 3rd in a 3 race omnium where only 3 guys completed all three races. I count that as a last place, not a podium ;-)

As long as the race is open to anyone who wants to enter then a win is a win. It's not just the people that show up it's everyone out there that could have signed up that you beat.

posts like this are why we need an "upvote" button. Extremely well-articulated.

Run ultras. There is a female winner and a male winner. And usually that's it.

First off . . . if you've ever raced, you know that the better part of "racing" doesn't take place on race day. Racing happens the six to nine months you've trained your buttocks off in order to be your fastest for race day. Just because nobody or nobody fast shows up on race day doesn't mean those months of race prep are hollow or that the victory doesn't count. The victory goes to the one who has raced the best for all those months of training. A race never happens in a single day. A race day is just the culmination of a year's effort.

Count me as one of the old guys whose health is about to pull down the curtain. Arthritic knees have already killed my spring '19 season and will probably cancel the fall season, too. I would love to win ANY race this year -- and I would count it. I won't seek out a weak field to do it. But in the good races, somebody will take my place on the podium. I congratulate them.

Every race any experienced competitor wins fits along a sliding scale of satisfaction. Without a doubt, the close win over a strong overall field is one you'll never forget. But to be honest, I'll never forget my most unintentionally "hollow" victories, either. (I once won a bicycle road race overall by over 40 minutes -- over a field that should have eaten me for lunch. It was a fluke. So what! I still love it.) It's the victories in between that get lost with time. If you race enough, for long enough, you're going to have some victories that the OP wouldn't count (for anyone but himself). They're still a win.

And as for aging AG competitors . . . it's still a competition and the athletes there are still giving all they've got. 100% is 100% no matter your age. And 100% is harder to come by when the AG numbers move upward. Racing is easy when you're under 30. (It really is.) Come back when you're over 60 -- if you can.

I thought racing was about crushing dreams, drinking cold salty tears, and banishing rainbows...or something like that...

No, it’s about not having the race you want but the race you deserve in epic conditions

Interesting, fairly unusual IME to find a guy who runs 100/200 m and also 10K and longer events. Kudos on your versatility. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This quote is going on my wall. There is much truth to this statement.

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Level II USAT Coach | Level 3 USAC Coach | NASM-CPT
Team Zoot | Tailwind Trailblazer
I can tell you why you're sick, I just can't write you an Rx

For the older folks, I look at it as they have outlasted their peers in the 'race of life'.
They are still racing while their peers may have succumbed to their obstacles.

Back in December I ran the Hot Chocolate 5K in Scottsdale AZ. My main goal was to break the 20min but unfortunately I came short 11 seconds. Either way, it was a huge PR for me (down from 22min and change) and looking at the results online later that day, I realized I finished third in my AG (M30-34). They didn't give medals for the 5K race (only for the 15K). A few weeks ago I received a package with a medal saying "3rd place". I'm not gonna lie.. I was pretty happy and proud of myself. Some can say that the field was weak and I agree, but I showed up and ran the race. I will take that spot proudly.

** correction: 2nd, not 3rd

Default: the two sweetest words in the English language

I had this conversation with my sister in law before a marathon this weekend. I think it depends on the person. I could care less about a win, and tend to go after a time goal majority of the time. I'd rather beat my goal and finish 15th rather than win and miss my goal.

You probably got it via roll down too cause probably top winners were in your AG (so really you got 6th AG). Sub masters folks should be aiming for overall status not AG.

No roll down, I just checked. For a second you totally stole my thunder.. hahah but it's back. ;)

I look at it this way; you don't ''win'' your age group, you finish first in your age group. There is only one winner, well two, there's a men's winner and a women's winner. It just sounds foolish to say you ''won'' something when you came in 50th overall.

That said, I have one win to my credit; a local 5k in the cold pouring rain. The fast guys must have stayed home, but I got to run the race behind the lead vehicle and break the tape when I crossed the finish line. I've got lots of age group awards but, this is one of the only awards I've held on to.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

Most of the time for me it's about my time(s) and execution. I'm pretty hard on myself especially at masters swim meets. Winning my overall event (or my AG) means little to me. If I swim a shit time or pace a race poorly I'm not satisfied. It's not always going to be PB but I want to always set myself up for a good result. I carry that mentality into triathlon and evaluate my performances in a similar way.

I'd rather get a photo with the my fellow overall podium finishers at a local/regional race and head home. No need to wait a few hours for awards at a non national race.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Like I posted above for masters I'm more concerned about time/execution. My real competition is racing in some other country and I find out later where I stack up when FINA releases their top ten lists.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I'm going to give you Swimming World (SW) magazine's viewpoint. Most of you have never heard of SW but since 1960 it has been the main voice of swimming in the U.S. It has been somewhat eclipsed by Mel Stewart's Swimswam web site and magazine but I think SW still carries a lot of weight. Every year SW picks the top 10 or 12 swims of the year and a few years ago, a guy in Canada became the first person ever to compete in a Masters meet in the 105-109 AG. SW picked his swim has one of the top 12 swims of the year (2015 IIRC), and please note this was NOT the top 12 Masters swims of the year but the top 12 swims period, e.g. including Phelps, Lochte, Ledecky, etc. So, I would say that the semi-official view of the "voice of swimming" is that it does not matter if there is anyone else in your AG or not, not even in the whole world. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hey I won 'C' in a Zwift CVR crit tonight, and won first on a Strava segment in 45-49. Suck it.

Cycling Canada changed it's politics a few years ago about giving out medals and jerseys to Para-cyclists, Masters and juniors at the Canadian National Track cycling Championships, even if there wasn't 4 people minimum in the event. When I chatted with the chief commissaire, she told me they decided that every participant deserved a medal or jersey if they did the performance, regardless of how many people showed up.

Louis :-)

Weird perspective.

So any sport I don't take part in should consider me beaten?
I never realised I've been losing all these years at golf, motorsports, tennis, basketball, rugby, football, squash, long jump, dog sledding, skiing, curling,..........
I thought I just wasn't interrested.

By your argument, if you're the only person who takes part in a race, you're the best in the world. You are saying that not choosing an event is akin to being beaten at it. Is that the case if I've never heard of the event?
What if there are multiple events the same day? Do I lose at all of them?
Seems a little deluded to me.

Enjoy your own performances but stop fooling yourself. You can win without beating anyone.
You are really arguing for credit purely for participating. That's fine. But don't dress it up as some victory over others.

Oh boy, I really hope you just forgot to put that in pink font!

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

I don't think there's a simple version of the approach you're taking.
Given your argument, would it not be equally valid to say women should say they came first in their gender (unless they beat all the men too). The grouping of AGs is more arbitrary but is still an attempt to have everyone compete against their "peers" in a mass participation race just like male and female categories.

Let me put it this way.
If you went to a track race meet and junior, senior and veteran athletes ran in different races, just like the male and female athletes do not share the track. Your logic, to me, dictates that either the senior race, or the race with the fastest winning time, has a winner and none of the others do. But they ran different races.

Mass participation events like triathlons and long distance running generally put everyone out there at once. I would see it primarily as multiple races being run simultaneously, but it is really a hybrid since overall positions are also recorded and this confuses things. I say everyone who wins one of the categories is a winner since that category is a race in it's own right. However, I don't think there's a morally, or logically correct answer due to the dual nature of the arrangement.

I agree. One winner, but lots of "1'st place in XYZ category"

Look at NASCAR or American Ninja Warrior. Men and women compete against each other and there is 1 winner. Although Danica was the 1'st woman to finish (when she didn't crash) she didn't get a winner's paycheck.

The first step to winning is just showing up. Sometimes that's the hardest part, because there are always a whole bunch of reasons NOT to race.

If you're the only one in your age group, that just means that of all the potential competitors, you were the only one with the will to actually toe that starting line that day.

You're not a douche for doing that, you're a freakin' ROCKSTAR.

Nonsense. You're assigning meaning where it isn't to facilitate self deception.
How many races do you do a year? Is it a failure of will that you don't do every race there is? Of course not, that logic is just stupid. You choose one or several races and do what you want to do. If I don't take part, you don't get to claim victory over me. Completely absurd!
Can't you be pleased with your own performance in isolation without needing to imagine you're better than people who aren't even there?

I'm trying to decide if this is just the product of an abstract hypothetical discussion, or if you actually mean you literally apportion credit like this!

Hello TheRock and All,


Re: Do you really win if no one else turns up? [TheRock]

An example might be Neil getting to the moon first .... no one else turned up ..... (Well .....

maybe the other crew members ....)

I would still say he was first and had a legitimate win.



should Hiromu be denied a win?




.... at age 85 ..... he was first in more ways than one ....

https://purpose2play.com/...rson-finish-ironman/

In covering 140.6 miles, Hiromu Inada, at 85, has traveled more miles in one day than most 85 year-olds travel in a single year.

On Saturday, the Japanese triathlete became the oldest person to finish the Kona IRONMAN World Championship, and even beat his own personal record in the process.
---------------------------------------
I think we take each of our efforts in context .... context counts .....

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

I've been entering races of various sorts for 40 years and, outside of a few years in high school swimming against other small schools, I have very rarely ever sniffed a podium. Racing in Boulder for 10 years, I would sometimes finish DFL being beat in small races by 'AG' racers who I'd seen on magazine covers as 20 years earlier...so be it. I'm mostly in this to challenge myself against myself and if I beat a guy ( who may have had a recent knee replacement) or lose to a guy who may have a couple World Cup medals (or JV letters!) I don't feel too much different about my race.

That said, every now and then nobody else shows up and it is fun to step up on a milk-crate podium at a Turkey Trot or an X-terra race and enjoy a small share of glory.

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" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978